Six Degrees of Jeffrey Epstein, with the Experts of TrueAnon

The internet is feasting on the files of a scandal (almost) everyone can agree upon. But who's following the money? Our friends from the inimitable TrueAnon podcast — Brace Belden and Liz Franczak — break down the latest tranches, the hidden characters, the sports billionaires, the Trump doodles... and how Prince Andrew got his sweat back. • Subscribe to TrueAnon https://pod.link/1474001390 • Read Drop Site's reporting https://www.dropsitenews.com/s/epstein-and-israel on Epstein's Yahoo inbox • Previously on PTFO: The NBA Player, the Congressman and the Epstein Files https://pod.link/1685093486/episode/NjkyZjVhZWVmYjZlYThlMzc4YzYxY2Rk Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy https://acast.com/privacy for more information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Pablo Torre?

  Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am Pablo Torre and today we're going to find out what this sound is.

• 0:06Speaker 01

  There's a slight problem with the sweating because I have a peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat, or I didn't sweat at the time. And that was... Oh, machine? Yes. I didn't sweat at the time.

• 0:24Pablo Torre?

  Right after this ad.

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• 1:00Pablo Torre?

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• 1:44Pablo Torre?

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• 2:08Speaker 03

  What are we talking about?

• 2:09Speaker 04

  What are we talking about? Jeffrey Epstein?

• 2:11Speaker 03

  That old, that old-

• 2:13Speaker 04

  That old bastard.

• 2:14Pablo Torre?

  Brace Belden, Liz Fransack, thank you for being here.

• 2:17Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 2:18Speaker 03

  Thank you for having us.

• 2:19Pablo Torre?

  I need people to appreciate your show, True and On, for lots of reasons. First and foremost, though, I need you to describe each other, if you could.

• 2:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course. Well, Brace is a 6'4" highly accomplished basketball player.

• 2:35Speaker 03

  I would say that, and I know what she's supposed to describe me, I'm a natural athlete.

• 2:39Pablo Torre?

  To be very clear and honest here, your Wikipedia page is one of the more bizarre texts that exists on the internet.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Listen, it's Wikipedia. It's not the full story, but it is a, it makes me look like a psychopath.

• 2:53Pablo Torre?

  That's right.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Liz, I would describe as, I hate to seem like I'm almost, I'm trying to make her fit in here, Liz is a giant sports fan.

• 3:01Speaker 04

  That's true.

• 3:01Pablo Torre?

  Liz knows ball.

• 3:02Speaker 03

  Liz knows ball and she's smart and like, she knows ball about other topics that aren't ball. Whatever that's called, I think, just being smart. But Liz is a very pleasant person, I would say.

• 3:12Pablo Torre?

  Well, Liz, I don't think fought in the Syrian civil war.

• 3:16Speaker 03

  No, she was, no, Liz was briefly in ISIS. People don't know this, and people think, cause like now it's like she's doing a whole other thing. But she was, yeah, she was in the Lady Brigade. And, and they kicked, they kicked her out over some theological differences.

• 3:28Speaker 04

  It was the ISIS ISIS.

• 3:29Pablo Torre?

  It's like how the Tennessee Volunteers have the Lady Vols.

• 3:32Speaker 04

  Exactly.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  Precisely.

• 3:34Speaker 04

  Sure.

• 3:38Pablo Torre?

  So I just gotta jump in here to quickly fact-check the truth behind True and On for you. Because True and On, which is otherwise known as my favorite podcast, that was specifically born in 2019 to cover the whole Jeffrey Epstein case, is in fact co-hosted by a guy who did sneak across the border into Syria in 2016 and volunteer with a Kurdish militia to fight ISIS. Brace Belden, whose Twitter handle used to be @PissPigGrandad, chronicled all of this on that account, which no longer exists, and then he returned home to become a labor organizer. Liz, meanwhile, Liz Fransack, really does know as much ball as the people yelling about sports on television, just for the record here.

• 4:22Pablo Torre?

  But the reason Brace and Liz are in studio with me today is because I recently did my own bit of Epstein coverage. This was two weeks ago, when I interviewed 6'11" former NBA player and three-term Democratic Congressman Tom McMillan about his life and career and recurring appearances in the recent wave of Epstein files. More on this specific character and story later. But last week, yet another tranche landed upon our shores.

• 4:52Speaker 05

  There were new Epstein photos released today showing you and also Bill Clinton, Steve Bannon. What were your reaction to those new photos that were released?

• 5:00Speaker 06

  Well, I haven't seen it, but I mean, everybody knew this man. He was all over Palm Beach. He has photos with everybody. I mean, almost, there are hundreds and hundreds of people that have photos with him. So that's no big deal. I know nothing about him.

• 5:13Pablo Torre?

  All of which made me want to talk to Brace and Liz about how we got here and how to make sense of an undeniably bipartisan scandal that keeps connecting to sports. When did you guys realize that you're going to spend this much of your lives talking about Jeffrey Epstein?

• 5:32Speaker 04

  I'm still realizing it. Yeah. It's still, it's like a wave that crashes over me. It's funny because, you know, we covered the Ghislaine Maxwell trial here.

• 5:43Speaker 07

  We are also following breaking news. Ghislaine Maxwell will serve 20 years in prison for sex trafficking. A federal judge announcing that sentence within the last hour. Now Maxwell was convicted of helping to recruit young girls to be abused by her longtime associate Jeffrey Epstein back in December.

• 6:00Speaker 03

  At the end of the Ghislaine trial, that sort of seemed to be it in terms of like any kind of new investigation. Jean-Luc Brunel, who was one of Epstein's close associates, who was sort of in this like inner circle with Ghislaine and Epstein, he died in a similar manner to Epstein in a prison in Paris.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  Tonight, Jean-Luc Brunel is dead, found in his Paris prison cell, hanged with his bed sheets, according to the Paris prosecutor's office.

• 6:28Speaker 03

  And it's sort of like, okay, well Epstein's dead, Jean-Luc Brunel's dead, and Ghislaine is in prison and sort of incommunicado.

• 6:36Speaker 04

  And when she was convicted, it was sort of like, this is going to be one of the last sort of gasps of this case. And then low and behold, this year has just been a flood.

• 6:51Speaker 07

  Conservatives are asking why Attorney General Pam Bondi and the DOJ issued a memo saying there's no new evidence. President Trump is defending Bondi, calling her fantastic and urging supporters not to waste time on Epstein. Quote, "We have nothing to hide," says Donald Trump. The president now saying he wants House Republicans to vote in favor of a bill to compel his own Justice Department to release the Jeffrey Epstein case files.

• 7:20Speaker 06

  They can do whatever they want. We'll give them everything. Sure, I would. Let the Senate look at it. Let anybody look at it.

• 7:28Speaker 04

  So many new tranches of information, emails, depositions.

• 7:34Speaker 05

  Several high-profile names are listed in newly released documents turned over by the estate of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein. Democrats on the House Oversight Committee say they will not stop until they identify everyone complicit, they say, in Epstein's heinous crimes.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  And a judge is unsealing secret grand jury transcripts from Jeffrey Epstein's sex trafficking case. It's the latest in a string of decisions making case files public after Congress passed a law requiring they be released. Now the Justice Department is facing a deadline in just over a week to release all the Epstein files. It was always funny because I think between the two parties, no one ever really knew what to do about Epstein. Like, this was an issue in the 2016 election. Yes. 2015, leading into the 2016 election. And then kind of came back with a vengeance when he was arrested and right before he perished, obviously. And then again, this year, as, you know, all the Trump people were trying to absorb

• 8:35Speaker 04

  this into, you know, having this kind of be their thing or whatever, and then kind of ending up with pie on their face because he was so close to Trump. But everyone didn't know exactly what to do because each party had such close connections to them.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  It's one of those things where in 2016, if there had been any other people, like both Trump and Hillary Clinton were not only like friends with Jeffrey Epstein, but at various times, good friends with Jeffrey Epstein. Right.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  Like, all together, though, too. Like, it would be just the Clintons, the Trumps, and Jeffrey Epstein.

• 9:10Pablo Torre?

  In photos.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Exactly, and it's so crazy because like, listen, if it was basically not anybody else, but most people in the country, if they're running against either politician, you could be like, weren't you friends with the pedophile guy for a long time? Sort of doing to Trump or to Clinton what's happening to Trump right now. But they were unable, they were almost some of the only two people in the country who were unable to hate each other on Epstein.

• 9:31Speaker 04

  Classic Spider-Man meme.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  Exactly. And it's funny because Epstein sort of became this shibboleth in right-wing media, right? Like, you have these, I don't know, maybe I'm also using the word shibboleth wrong, but you know what? Can I do like a Jamie thing? Can you put the definition of shibboleth kind of on the screen right now?

• 9:49Pablo Torre?

  Are you turning me into Joe Rogan's researcher? I'm here to play the role of Jamie.

• 9:56Speaker 04

  Wow.

• 9:56Pablo Torre?

  Want me to look up shibboleth?

• 9:58Speaker 03

  I mean, just am I right about what the word shibboleth means?

• 10:00Pablo Torre?

  It is a word, custom practice, that identifies someone as belonging to a particular group, or conversely, marks them as an outsider.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Okay, I'm wrong on the word shibboleth then. Fine, totem. Jeffrey Epstein sort of existed as a totem for the, for a lot of right-wing media. And they sort of did like these like, oh, Jeffrey Epstein didn't kill himself t-shirts. The release of this thing that kind of cohered into the Epstein list

• 10:24Pablo Torre?

  Right.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  really became, kind of I feel like to Trump's chagrin, a part of his campaign. And he was pressured by these kind of right-wing podcasters into agreeing to release an Epstein list, which he did twice, once in a TV interview and I think once in a podcast interview.

• 10:39Speaker 06

  Would you declassify the Epstein files? Yeah, yeah, I would. Alright. I guess I would. I think that less so because, you know, you don't know. You don't want to affect people's lives if it's phony stuff in there because there's a lot of phony stuff with that whole world.

• 10:54Speaker 03

  And J.D. Vance as well, he has this sort of awkward exchange with Theo Von where he's sort of forced to be like, yep. Release the list.

• 11:04Speaker 03

  Seriously, we need to release the Epstein list. That is an important thing. It has just been disaster after disaster. It is one of the things I think that Trump has mishandled worse than anything else probably in his entire career.

• 11:17Pablo Torre?

  Oh, the tweets that J.D. Vance sent. I'm just gonna quote from one of them. "What possible interests would the US government have in keeping Epstein's client secret?" Oh, dot, dot, dot. One tweet. Another one. "If you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself. What purpose do you even serve? I'm sure there's a middle-class teenager somewhere who could use some harassing right now, but maybe try to do your job once in a while."

• 11:40Speaker 03

  They shouldn't let millennials be in politics, man.

• 11:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's doing like office gym face.

• 11:44Speaker 03

  You can't be like, "Oh, dot, dot, dot. Oh, dot, dot, dot."

• 11:48Speaker 04

  That's his whole thing.

• 11:50Speaker 03

  I know, I know.

• 11:51Pablo Torre?

  But I should say, in response to that thing, right? When he says, "If you're a journalist and you're not asking questions about this case, you should be ashamed of yourself," that is a big, I mean, not the only reason why, but it's part of why my thought was, this is clearly an absurd story that the internet can have its whatever. It could feast on this, but like, I consider myself an aspiringly serious journalist. Like, J.D. Vance is telling me to do this? Why would I do that? And I want to shout out like the real journalists who have done work on this, like Julie Brown of Miami Herald, being the foremost person I think of of like, doing real investigative work that has never, I would say, looked more prescient, more important in retrospect. And now I'm realizing, oh, like, he was hoisted on a petard

• 12:36Pablo Torre?

  to the extent that I have used that petard as my...

• 12:40Speaker 03

  You're hoisting yourself up on his petard?

• 12:43Pablo Torre?

  That's right.

• 12:43Speaker 03

  Pause on that, but that's, it's, it's, this is, and I just wanted to say, I'm looking at the camera, direct advice, never be involved in the hoisting of a petard any which way. Because you think you might be hoisting someone else's, it might be your own petard that is hoisted. What is a petard? We don't know. But that's something that gets hoisted.

• 12:58Pablo Torre?

  It's a bit of a shibboleth.

• 12:59Speaker 03

  It's a bit of a shibboleth, yeah. That's what they say.

• 13:02Speaker 04

  Going back to this whole like, either party doesn't know what to do with this case, which it's like kind of a hot potato for everyone involved, is that like now Democrats are...

• 13:14Speaker 04

  Completely obsessed with it.

• 13:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 13:16Speaker 04

  In a way that they are now going like so far deep in it. It's kind of funny to watch in a way that they're just looking for anything, anything, anything that they can kind of like use as ammunition against Trump.

• 13:28Pablo Torre?

  It feels like for the Trump administration, it feels like a real pressure point.

• 13:30Speaker 03

  It really is in a way that few other things are. I mean, Donald Trump is sort of known for being Tefloned on, right? Like kind of untouchable. But again, his mishandling of this from top to bottom. And to be clear, like, there's not really allegations against Trump in terms of like victims that have spoken out or have directly accused people of something. Virginia Jeffrey has said explicitly that Donald Trump was not involved with what happened to me. And so I was always like, you know, he's a piece of [BLEEP]. But like, he was probably doing his weird [BLEEP] with like probably adult models that he was, you know, getting from Russia or whatever, allegedly. I'm not even alleging that, but I'm saying if he was to do something, he was probably doing something with those people. But the way that he has tried to like squash this story has made me be like, what the [BLEEP] is going on?

• 14:15Speaker 03

  And then that slow, the strangest with the letter and the lawsuit, saying that the letter was fake. He filed like a multi-billion dollar lawsuit against the Wall Street Journal and Rupert Murdoch for allegedly coming up faking a letter, which they were able to.

• 14:30Speaker 04

  The birthday.

• 14:30Pablo Torre?

  The birthday.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  Birthday.

• 14:32Pablo Torre?

  The whole thing of like, I don't illustrate anything. And then it's like people pointing out, here are a series of illustrations, Mr. President, that you otherwise made.

• 14:41Speaker 04

  And I will say, kind of nice illustrations.

• 14:44Pablo Torre?

  He's pretty good.

• 14:45Speaker 03

  It's not bad. You know, it's.

• 14:47Pablo Torre?

  George Bush has his cat paintings. Donald Trump loves doodles.

• 14:50Speaker 04

  Don't they look like, I always say they look like they belong at like Sardi's or something, like the like New York.

• 14:56Pablo Torre?

  A classy, almost.

• 14:56Speaker 04

  Classic midtown New York skyline.

• 14:59Pablo Torre?

  A martini.

• 15:00Speaker 04

  Yes, midtown martini don.

• 15:02Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 15:03Speaker 04

  It's all there.

• 15:28Pablo Torre?

  But before we can get back to where there is sports in this story, and also the ways in which Jeffrey Epstein connects to the billionaires who run sports, I also don't want to take your knowledge of the deep lore of this story for granted. Because in order to make sense of Jeffrey Epstein himself, and how he became this nexus point for what can legitimately be described as the global elite, you also need to know the peculiar origin story of his former girlfriend and confidant and employee, Ghislaine Maxwell, and how the two of them met.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  Ghislaine Maxwell comes from this family, you know, Robert Maxwell, her father, the bouncing Czech, who was this sort of science book magnet in the post-war years. He worked as a spy for British intelligence during the war. After the war, he sort of had this like strange kind of combination of jobs where he was very big publisher, was sort of a rival of Rupert Murdoch. But he was also involved in this kind of like, let's say, backdoor intelligence and diplomatic work where he was, you know, he's from Britain, but he was going over to Bulgaria quite a bit. He was quite close with the Israelis and he was spending a lot of time in the Soviet Union. And so he was just kind of this guy, this international networker guy, who also had these many newspapers.

• 16:48Speaker 03

  And sort of famously, he was alleged to have been involved in the kidnapping of Vanunu, the Israeli whistleblower who revealed that Israel has a nuclear weapons program.

• 16:59Pablo Torre?

  And I'm just trying to process everything you just said.

• 17:01Speaker 03

  And that's not like conspiracy theories.

• 17:03Pablo Torre?

  No, that's what I mean. I'm like following along. I'm Jamie-ing along. And I'm like, yep, there's that. There's the really nuclear program story.

• 17:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, still never acknowledged by our government or theirs. He was a really sort of interesting character, was killed or died. It's sort of a similar thing to what happened with Epstein where there's a lot of mystery sort of around his death. But he fell off his yacht and he was quite a large. Man.

• 17:26Speaker 04

  He was.

• 17:27Speaker 03

  And I don't know how gravity works. I'm not gonna pretend like I'm like Mr. Isaac Newton here. But I'm like, if you're like that big of a dude, don't you kinda have, it's like harder to push you over, right?

• 17:37Speaker 04

  Well, you, for him to tip, he would have to, I mean, I think that would be very, you know, it's a low center of gravity that's kinda holding you down there.

• 17:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, but I don't know how gravity works.

• 17:46Speaker 04

  But it's important to mention too, that like in the immediate aftermath, I mean, Ghislaine didn't think that he, like just fell off his boat. He, she thought that he was pushed.

• 17:55Pablo Torre?

  And the boat was called Lady Ghislaine.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm. Which was previously owned by famous arms trafficker Adnan Khashoggi. Yes.

• 18:04Pablo Torre?

  Adnan Khashoggi, I know this from separate, a separate rabbit hole. He's the guy who had also done business with Trump.

• 18:11Speaker 03

  Correct. Yeah, I think Trump was actually maybe gonna buy that boat.

• 18:14Pablo Torre?

  In 1991, Donald Trump, who was envious of Adnan Khashoggi, the mogul, Saudi Arabia mogul, arranged to buy the yacht, as it's called, then called the Nabila, for 29 million dollars and touted it on David Letterman's show as, quote, "Probably the greatest yacht ever built. It's really been kind of a great investment." And he renamed it The Princess, apparently after Ivanka. So just a real,

• 18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 18:42Pablo Torre?

  A real bunch of, a bunch of dads loving their kids.

• 18:45Speaker 03

  A bunch of dads, we just love our kids.

• 18:46Pablo Torre?

  As a bunch of fathers of daughters.

• 18:48Speaker 04

  It's such a small world, isn't it?

• 18:50Speaker 03

  Yes, yes. And so, and so Ghislaine actually gave interviews and was like, "My father was killed." And it's, it's interesting because that brings us, actually, she meets, or at least the first picture ever of her with Jeffrey Epstein, is at her father's memorial here in New York City. And this is kind of when they began dating. It's, it seems like they did meet before then, but sort of the first, I think, official linkage of them comes at Ghislaine's father's memorial. I don't know.

• 19:18Speaker 04

  This is the, like, first reported appearance of them together in, like, the society pages.

• 19:23Speaker 03

  It's funny, because what, what Robert Maxwell really wanted for his daughter is for her to be like, basically, he wanted her to, like, join the Kennedys and to like, you know,

• 19:32Pablo Torre?

  The dream.

• 19:33Speaker 03

  The dream, but like, in like, what was it, the dream?

• 19:35Speaker 04

  They had kind of an odd relationship.

• 19:37Speaker 03

  Eighty-six?

• 19:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 03

  You know what I mean? Like, he also allegedly, I don't know if you even wanna put this in, he wiped his ass with, uh, With full length bath towels.

• 19:46Pablo Torre?

  We want to put that in.

• 19:47Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah, that's just, there's allegations of that.

• 19:49Speaker 04

  He was a big, big guy.

• 19:50Speaker 03

  He's a big fella, you know, you know, and who knows what's going on with that. The British dad is very strange. That's really when Epstein and Ghislaine were like, they were, that was like, they were the top of their power couple game. And so they had a strange relationship. They get together after dad dies. Kind of no disrespect, and I don't mean anything by this, classic time to get with a woman. Um, and their relationship is, uh.

• 20:13Pablo Torre?

  Listen for the audio only audience is shaking her head.

• 20:15Speaker 03

  Shaking her head because she's like, damn, he's right. They have an interesting relationship where she seems to be like enthralled to him in many ways. Uh, and he's just like, I don't go, I'm cheating on you with a Rothschild and, and, uh, Eva Dubin.

• 20:29Speaker 04

  But also it's, it's very unclear, like what they're, I mean, she has kind of alluded like, oh yes, we were together. But then also that they, I mean, they never slept together, but she says because of a medical condition that he had.

• 20:43Speaker 03

  I mean, Jeffrey Epstein, there are allegations that he has a either egg or as we've recently learned, maybe perhaps lemon shaped penis, which seems to, it's most basically the same shape, right? I'm like, I'm like, I'm looking for a second opinion.

• 20:56Speaker 04

  I feel like a lemon is a little pointier.

• 20:59Speaker 03

  Lemon to me is, yeah, you're right, you're right.

• 21:01Speaker 04

  You know?

• 21:02Speaker 03

  It's like the taper is more, is, is, yeah.

• 21:05Pablo Torre?

  I'm Googling.

• 21:06Speaker 04

  A little sharper of a taper.

• 21:07Pablo Torre?

  I'm Googling eggs, so.

• 21:09Speaker 03

  Oh, I can just picture them usually. But I, uh, it's, they're, uh, it's, it's, um.

• 21:16Speaker 04

  There did seem to be some sort of defamation.

• 21:18Speaker 03

  I will say there is out there a picture of Jeffrey Epstein's penis. And I'm not saying this in like a, I'm trying to be crazy way, but like, this has been a major part of the Jeffrey Epstein story for a while. Like it was a pretty like.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Well, they asked him about it.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  Exactly. He was like, it, when.

• 21:32Speaker 04

  Is it true you have an egg shaped penis?

• 21:33Speaker 03

  Crazy in a deposition to be like, you gotta, you gotta know that question is like 60th on the list. And like every time you, everyone you're done, I'm like, I'm gonna get the egg shaped penis.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  The night before you're looking in the mirror, just like practicing it in the bathroom.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  Like, you're like trying not to stutter. And he was like. I mean, not to get too into it, like his sexual predilections were sort of strange.

• 21:51Pablo Torre?

  I feel like we're well past the point of you being able to say not to get too into it.

• 21:55Speaker 03

  But like, he does, I mean, his big thing was like these sort of massages. And like, sometimes it was a euphemism, especially all of like the kind of Paul Beach allegations with the teenage girls. It's like, those, most of those were in the context of these massages, some of which began as regular massages, but he would pressure them into doing other things or offer them money to do other things. And sometimes, you know, there are allegations, I mean, there's, there's, there's full, like, penetrative rape allegations against him, and then there's like, oh, he just paid me money for a handjob, so they sort of run the gamut. Um, but he also, that, there's this other kind of like exculpatory, not exculpatory, but I believe in like, Ghislaine's view, exculpatory stuff, and maybe Jeffrey's as well, as we saw from some of the emails. That he's like, no, I actually love getting massages.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  So he was getting massages from adults too, but he was also getting these-

• 22:44Speaker 04

  I believe it was like, six times a day.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  Yes. He was, that's why I'm like, where was his job?

• 22:49Pablo Torre?

  Well, I think the question I'm asking myself all the time is like, what should I know that I don't know already? When I'm like catching up on the coursework? And then it's this, like, the related question of what becomes a meme that people do know about and why?

• 23:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:03Pablo Torre?

  And for instance, like Les Wexner, I think is somebody we deserve to really be talking about.

• 23:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm, I'm sure that he is sort of preferring his, um, kind of slow fading away into the darkness. I think probably, he never wants to be in the news again. He does, he certainly does.

• 23:21Speaker 04

  He's got a face for it.

• 23:22Speaker 03

  But he was the, uh, he was the owner of The Limited, which was this sort of conglomerate which owned a bunch of different brands, notably Victoria's Secret. And it's through him that Jeffrey Epstein seems like he got his first big break. Now, that's actually where we kind of come to our first problem, is we actually have basically no insight into what that big break looked like.

• 23:42Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 03

  It's still, to this day, it's pretty unclear, and there are people working on this, both in, in Congress and in the Senate, and also journalists working on this, we actually don't really know how Jeffrey Epstein made his money.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  And how much of it he made.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so within like, I mean, within like six or seven years of working for Leslie Wexner, he's making like tens and tens of millions of dollars.

• 24:05Speaker 04

  Has power of attorney, all this stuff.

• 24:06Pablo Torre?

  Yes, he was the primary investor and money manager and was so close that, yes, he had power of attorney, which is like the most intimate

• 24:13Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 24:13Pablo Torre?

  legal relationship you can have with another person.

• 24:16Speaker 04

  And there's rumors of other types of intimate relationships between the two of them.

• 24:19Speaker 03

  I will say, and frankly, you know what? I have heard so many rumors about Leslie Wexner's predilections. But we have heard, we've heard several, including from people who have sort of maybe know some of the principles involved, that Leslie Wexner and Jeffrey Epstein had a deeper relationship than is reported.

• 24:41Pablo Torre?

  So as a matter of just like the sports of this, because we're sports in this story, you may be asking, a technically sports show. I was seeing, of course, Leslie Wexner's name on the football complex at Ohio State University. It's the Les Wexner Football Complex at Ohio State.

• 24:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:57Pablo Torre?

  Relatedly, more recently, a bunch of Ohio State alumni were holding up photos of the face aforementioned of billionaire Les Wexner with Jeffrey Epstein because they were demanding testimony from Wexner in their own school sex abuse case involving this Dr. Richard Strauss, who was allegedly abusing all of these wrestlers. This is the Jim Jordan story, this is all of that. As one former OSU wrestler, Tom Lizzie, put it, quote, "We believe Wexner's testimony will shed light because he was on the board of Ohio State while it was all happening."

• 25:30Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 25:30Pablo Torre?

  And so, speaking of, just like, where does Epstein, the six degrees of him?

• 25:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:36Pablo Torre?

  I mean, this is one, this is one degree, right to the other giant, in this case, male sex abuse scandal at Ohio State University.

• 25:45Speaker 03

  It's funny because he really, I think he saw which way the wind was blowing very early along with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff. I think probably because their names are so connected. And so with, there was a lot of, this is sort of ancient history now, but in 2019, after Jeffrey Epstein got arrested, there was a lot of reporting that came out about him essentially like abusing his position as this kind of money guy or like consigliere for Leslie Wexner in order to essentially do like casting couch [BLEEP] with adult models who maybe he would entice with potential work for Victoria's Secret. Now, this is something that actually is a pretty important part of the Jeffrey Epstein world to begin with.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  Modeling.

• 26:28Speaker 03

  Modeling, exactly.

• 26:29Speaker 04

  And this brings back Trump, by the way.

• 26:31Speaker 03

  Yes. I mean, well, there's the rumor, of course.

• 26:34Pablo Torre?

  With Melania.

• 26:35Speaker 03

  I just want to say this, and again, I'm looking right in the camera. Hunter Biden is currently under threat of lawsuit from Melania Trump for a billion dollars for claiming that Jeffrey Epstein introduced Donald Trump and Melania Trump. I'm saying that it is within the realm of possibility that something of this nature could have possibly occurred due to the social scenes these people were moving in.

• 27:00Pablo Torre?

  The social network, right, of like what and who is hanging out with each other? And what do they know and when did they know it? Is separate from what did you do criminally?

• 27:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 27:10Pablo Torre?

  And I want to clarify, for instance, like Les Wexner, this is the reporting, you know, there were these Epstein documents released by a US district judge in New York in January 2024 that involves Virginia Jeffrey alleging that she was forced to have sex with Wexner numerous times.

• 27:24Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 27:25Pablo Torre?

  Okay, so that's Wexner. And he's reportedly repeatedly denied that allegation.

• 27:29Speaker 03

  One thing that I think that has always sort of, there's been this stench of it around Jeffrey Epstein is that like, clearly he was moving money in places and maybe washing money or laundering money for people.

• 27:40Pablo Torre?

  Globally.

• 27:41Speaker 03

  Globally, yeah. I mean, it's, we're getting a little more insight into kind of his global practices now with the latest tranche release. But it's, it's still such a black hole. I mean, so much finance stuff is a black hole on purpose. But I think it is notable. Like, yeah, he lived in like the US Virgin Islands, dude. Like, that's like, I'm sure that they're very beautiful islands, have never been there. But like, I think that there's also maybe a little bit of a dual purpose for that. Uh, and he, in fact, was getting like these special sort of tax programs, I believe, set up specifically for him in the US Virgin Islands. Jeffrey Epstein's relationship to the government of the US Virgin Islands is so insane.

• 28:15Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 28:16Speaker 03

  Like, the JP Morgan case.

• 28:18Speaker 04

  The cases with JP Morgan, Chase, and Deutsche Bank have yielded some of the more like interesting disclosures over the years. I mean, you mentioned Julie K. Brown. There's a few journalists at the New York Times that have been following this since his arrest and really trying to like follow the money, which is a whole different angle than some of the more like, kind of more salacious stuff that people kind of get caught up in. And what kind of came out with the Virgin Islands case was fascinating, too, because that he had such a close relationship with the governor there.

• 28:54Speaker 03

  De Jong, I believe.

• 28:55Speaker 04

  Yes, Cécile De Jong, who's the governor's wife. She would help him secure student visas for girls that he would bring over from Eastern Europe.

• 29:07Speaker 03

  Right.

• 29:07Speaker 04

  To be university students, except then they wouldn't be really university students. They would just kind of be quote unquote, "working" for Jeffrey Epstein, which you have to do that. I mean, there's like a whole procedure there, you know, to get a student visa that you have to go through the government. I mean, so, you know, none of that really caught on in a lot of mainstream coverage. But it's small details like that that have really stuck with me.

• 29:40Pablo Torre?

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• 30:17Pablo Torre?

  This brings me, by the way, to just the character of Prince Andrew.

• 30:20Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 30:21Pablo Torre?

  Because...

• 30:23Speaker 03

  It's tough.

• 30:23Pablo Torre?

  He has gone viral, so to speak. He has become nationally famous, internationally famous, obviously, so to speak. And yet, I had not seen the BBC Newsnight.

• 30:32Speaker 03

  You never saw that?

• 30:33Pablo Torre?

  Interview until I was just preparing to talk to you guys.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  He's so good, isn't he?

• 30:39Pablo Torre?

  It's incredible.

• 30:41Speaker 04

  It's shocking. It had been a while since I had seen it, because, you know, we talked about it when it kind of, when it came out, obviously. But the, just the sheer amount, uh, just, he's like, "I don't need media training. I don't need help with this. I'm, I'm just gonna go for it myself." And just, it just crumbles completely. It is...

• 31:02Pablo Torre?

  I, I was, uh...

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Remarkable.

• 31:05Pablo Torre?

  When I was talking to Tom McMillan, I was imagining, like, how rarely it happens when you get someone in the files in front of a journalist with just extended opportunity to question.

• 31:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 31:16Pablo Torre?

  And this interview with Prince Andrew is like 50 minutes, and it is all about this. And at one point, Race, he's talking about how he stayed at Epstein's house after so much of the news came out, and he calls it this.

• 31:34Speaker 01

  It was a convenient place to stay. There's, I mean, I've gone through this in my mind so many times.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  At the end of the day, um, with the benefit of all the hindsight that one can have, um, it was definitely the wrong thing to do. But at the time, I felt it was the, it was the honorable and right thing to do. And I, I admit fully that, that, that my judgment was probably colored by my, um...

• 32:07Speaker 01

  Tendency to be too honorable, but that's just the way it is.

• 32:13Speaker 04

  He just needed to be by the park. It was so convenient.

• 32:16Speaker 03

  He got a lot of flack for that, but I gotta tell you, saying that you hung out with a pedophile because you're too honorable not to is, I think, probably the first person in history to use this excuse.

• 32:28Pablo Torre?

  Your Honor, I love work too much.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  Exactly, exactly.

• 32:32Speaker 04

  He should have said, "Your Honor, that was during my pre-woke phase."

• 32:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. "Your Honor," it's different in the UK.

• 32:40Speaker 04

  We were just different back then.

• 32:41Pablo Torre?

  Who he is, though, just like, okay, Prince Charles's bro.

• 32:45Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 32:46Pablo Torre?

  Who had been, subsequent to all of this, excommunicated, banished from Buckingham Palace and so forth.

• 32:51Speaker 03

  A little before, he was kind of the black sheep.

• 32:54Speaker 04

  Always.

• 32:55Speaker 03

  Always.

• 32:55Pablo Torre?

  Well, one of the things... What is your favorite memory from that interview in terms of like, what still sticks in your craw?

• 33:01Speaker 03

  I mean, I hate to say it because it seems like the most obvious answer, but saying that he was so scarred from the Falklands War that he was no longer able to sweat and thus could not, this memory that Virginia Jeffrey has of him being very sweaty. And to say this as a person who, many pictures of Prince Andrew feature him on ecstasy in Ibiza, sweating copiously.

• 33:28Speaker 04

  Dare I say, he's sweating in that interview.

• 33:30Speaker 03

  Yes. It is, I think that is, it is sort of, it speaks to the power of the royal family. And I don't mean power as in temporal power, I mean really spiritual power coming from God, that he was able to think that this excuse would work.

• 33:46Speaker 07

  She was very specific about that night. She described dancing with you and you profusely sweating, and that she went on to have baths, possibly.

• 33:57Speaker 01

  There's a slight problem with the sweating, because I have a peculiar medical condition, which is that I don't sweat, or I didn't sweat at the time, and that was... Oh, is she in? Yes. I didn't sweat at the time because I had suffered what I would describe as an overdose of adrenaline in the Falklands War when I was shot at. And I simply, it was, it was, it was almost impossible for me to sweat. And it's only because I have done a number of things in the recent past, that I'm starting to be able to do that again. So I'm afraid to say that, that, that, that there's a medical condition that says that I didn't do it, so therefore.

• 34:42Speaker 04

  Okay, so just a few things. One, if you're a journalist, and you're a journalist, you know what I say to this? I say, what are the things you did? What are the things you did to get your sweat back? That I'm curious about.

• 34:55Pablo Torre?

  Yeah.

• 34:55Speaker 04

  Two, I want, they made like all these movies, we were just talking about this. They made movies about this interview.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's very strange, but that was, I, I view them as like how they made a Hot Cheetos movie.

• 35:06Speaker 04

  But also all the like Me Too movies.

• 35:08Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 35:09Speaker 04

  You know, the girls.

• 35:10Speaker 03

  The Megyn Kelly movie, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  The girls are taking them down kind of moment. Anyway, but I, what I want is a movie that is just the scene before the interview with his PR girl, where they are coming up with the plan for how he's going to explain that she could be lying. And they come up with, well, what if we say I medically can't sweat? Because I want to know the like logic and how he kind of could come up with such an idea. Because to be honest, I do think it is very creative.

• 35:44Speaker 03

  He does an incredible sort of lie thing where he's like saying this and he's like, was that, yeah, like, you know what I mean?

• 35:50Speaker 04

  Was that before I did all my, the work to get the sweat back?

• 35:53Speaker 03

  Cause it's like, before I did ayahuasca and before I did some, some healing. It's like, I'm sorry, and this is maybe British viewers or Argentinian viewers even might find this offensive. I cannot take PTSD from the Falklands War seriously in any respect, especially, I believe, a naval guy. He wasn't even on that one big battle that they had. And so it's like, all right, first of all.

• 36:14Pablo Torre?

  This is why I mentioned that Braze was in the Syrian civil war, so he has the authority.

• 36:19Speaker 04

  You know what, though?

• 36:20Pablo Torre?

  The condescend to the Falklands.

• 36:21Speaker 03

  Well, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

• 36:23Speaker 04

  For a prince, I'm sure it was pretty scary.

• 36:25Speaker 03

  It was pretty scary. I'm sure it was pretty scary to be on a big ship with an Argentinian ship shooting the little guns at you. But it is difficult to be like, okay, so that scared you so bad so you couldn't sweat? It's interesting.

• 36:38Speaker 04

  I've never even heard of this before.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Maybe you sweated everything out and you're depleted for many years until you drink enough electrolytes.

• 36:44Speaker 04

  We do need more journalism because we need to find out how he came up with this idea.

• 36:49Speaker 03

  Yes, and I think a really-

• 36:50Speaker 04

  And who gave it to him?

• 36:51Pablo Torre?

  And did they look up the photos of him profusely sweating, which are also easily available?

• 36:56Speaker 03

  She knows. You know what I mean? There's a million photos of him like with his like mouth open with Naomi Campbell in the background going like-

• 37:02Speaker 04

  Like clearly on MDMA.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  Yes. He's probably done more ecstasy than that [bleep] who's Macaulay Culkin in the movie Party Monster where they kill the kid?

• 37:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 37:10Speaker 03

  He's like that. He was like that but a royal. And it's, it's-

• 37:14Speaker 04

  And not that long ago either.

• 37:16Speaker 03

  No. Well, it's so, it's, it's funny because his connection with, to Ghislaine Maxwell comes, I believe, from, from uni, as they call it out there. Which is also where, according to Boris Johnson's sister, heavily implying this in a column, I believe she wrote for The Spectator, Ghislaine Maxwell also might have [bleep] Boris Johnson. Which is, by the way-

• 37:38Speaker 04

  None of my business.

• 37:39Speaker 03

  Well, none of my business either. I would, I would pay not any amount of money, but I would pay probably $500 to see a high-definition picture of Boris Johnson completely naked, from the front and back, two pictures. It, it's crazy because-

• 37:49Speaker 04

  And I had, he's always wearing Union Jack underwear.

• 37:51Pablo Torre?

  I feel like that photo, as I described, would give me a surge of adrenaline such that I too could not sweat anymore.

• 37:56Speaker 03

  Well, because I would sweat so much.

• 37:57Speaker 04

  Interesting, yeah.

• 37:58Speaker 03

  Pant, and also pants, of course.

• 37:59Pablo Torre?

  I mean, the money, when you follow the money-

• 38:02Speaker 04

  If you can.

• 38:02Pablo Torre?

  Which is difficult for reasons that you guys have laid out. You do get to Apollo Global Management.

• 38:09Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 38:10Pablo Torre?

  Insofar as one of the people who keeps showing up in this story, of course, is Leon Black, one of the heads of Apollo Global Management. And when you tell the story of Apollo, which is this big private equity firm, you then get to a name in the files, and that name is Josh Harris.

• 38:26Speaker 04

  Hmm.

• 38:27Pablo Torre?

  And so Josh Harris braces now quizzically looking at us.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  Oh, thank God, it's a sports thing. I was like, is this just a guy I didn't know about?

• 38:33Pablo Torre?

  He was one of the... Could be both. One of the heads of Apollo Global Management, but he is also better known for our audience, I guess, as the owner of the Philadelphia 76ers, the New Jersey Devils, and the Washington Commanders. He's the guy who has been apparently talking to the White House, back-channeling with the White House about naming the Commander's new stadium after Donald Trump. I didn't know that. Oh, yeah, that's happening. That's been the story that has been unfolding backstage. He was at the dinner with Mohammed bin Salman at the White House recently. And according to the schedule in the Epstein files from December 2014 that was released this fall by the House Oversight Committee, was listed as an invitee to a tentative breakfast with Jeffrey Epstein and Bill Gates.

• 39:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

• 39:20Pablo Torre?

  Now, did it happen? Did it not? It's simply listed on the docket for stuff that was set to happen. And he's also in... Did you guys see, I mean, of course you did, but like Michael Wolff's writing?

• 39:33Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 39:38Pablo Torre?

  And so just to clarify here, what popped up in one of the recent releases of Epstein emails was the almost 9,000-word draft of a New York Magazine profile about Jeffrey Epstein, which was privately sent to Jeffrey Epstein ahead of publication by its author, Michael Wolff, which is, you know, this whole separate ethical problem for journalists to discuss later. But in this draft, Michael Wolff describes his experience observing a parade of global elites that were coming in and out of Epstein's New York mansion. The same mansion that Prince Andrew was, you know, too honorable to not stay at. This was a series of private meetings around 2014.

• 40:22Pablo Torre?

  Years, in other words, after Epstein had pled guilty in Florida in 2008 to prostitution-related charges involving a minor, and years after he was ruled a registered sex offender in 2011 in New York. And Wolf writes about watching luminaries like former Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin come in for breakfast, and then the former chief technology officer at Microsoft shows up, and then, quote, "Josh Harris, the co-founder of Apollo Global Management, $164 billion under management, and owner of the New Jersey Devils and the Philadelphia 76ers." Wolf continues, quote, "Perhaps it's just the ultimate feminist nightmare.

• 41:04Pablo Torre?

  Men, and a few opportunistic women, continue to come to Epstein's because, no matter their public vows to modern manners, they simply don't care that he offends every aspect of reconstructed gender and political sensibilities. In private, it remains a man's world, a rich man's world." End quote. And so Josh Harris is... Say it again, sister. Is one of these, is one of these characters in this, in this play, allegedly. And so I also need to say here that last week Pablo Torre finds out, reached out to a spokesman for Josh Harris, who faces no criminal accusations of any kind, for comment about the scheduled tentative meeting and alleged visit with Epstein, and he did not respond before our

• 41:49Pablo Torre?

  deadline. But this now brings us back to the fellow billionaire co-founder of Apollo Global Management, the guy we mentioned before, whose association with Epstein was significantly more intimate. But Leon Black, speaking of like the money, you follow the money insofar as we can, and you're like, so Jeffrey Epstein got $158 million from Leon Black for?

• 42:15Speaker 03

  Tax advice?

• 42:17Pablo Torre?

  Tax advice.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  Tax advice?

• 42:19Pablo Torre?

  Tax and estate planning services. And I'm no billionaire, but 158 million [bleep] dollars for-

• 42:26Speaker 03

  Seems like quite a bit.

• 42:27Pablo Torre?

  Tax advice?

• 42:28Speaker 04

  Well, think how much he must have saved him.

• 42:30Speaker 03

  But don't taxes come-

• 42:31Speaker 04

  That's the thing that's scary, right?

• 42:32Pablo Torre?

  That's the follow-up question I would wanna ask.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  That's what I'm saying. You're paying someone 160 million dollars. You gotta know, well, how much did this guy save me? How much did I make?

• 42:42Speaker 03

  I think one thing that that always blows my mind is Jeffrey Epstein is said to have, I mean, you're making 150 million dollars from one, one client. Jeffrey Epstein's staff doesn't really seem like they'd exist. Like, he has various social secretaries. But like, there's not very many people, or really anybody, who is like, "Yeah, I was Jeffrey Epstein's, like, I, I like, you know, I sort of, I interned at Jeffrey Epstein and like, you know, I was like a first-year CPA there." But like, no, it's not. It's just apparently Jeffrey Epstein when he's doing these things-

• 43:12Speaker 04

  And his lawyers.

• 43:13Speaker 03

  And his lawyers, yeah, Darren Kay, Indike. But, uh, who are still, yeah, his, yeah, who are very, sort of, I also don't think it's been examined enough, but like, it's still, it seems like a rather small operation for such large amounts of money.

• 43:25Speaker 04

  Well, that's how you keep all the money.

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• 44:15Pablo Torre?

  Thank you, by the way, for just taking time to watch, to listen to the interview we did with Tom McMillan, who was the 6'11" NBA player in question.

• 44:22Speaker 03

  I'd say 6'9", but yeah.

• 44:24Pablo Torre?

  Well.

• 44:25Speaker 04

  6'11" in shoes.

• 44:26Pablo Torre?

  In shoes, in socks. Combine measurement. Who was in the video that NBC took at Mar-a-Lago, where it's Epstein walking in, and there is Donald Trump, and he's ducking out from behind [BLEEP] Epstein and Trump next to Ghislaine Maxwell.

• 44:39Speaker 03

  What an interview. I think that interview was really good because I think it sort of showed a bunch of things. Both how Epstein operated with sort of this like, this like web of friends, how little anybody gave a [BLEEP] that he got arrested for solicitation of a prostitute, but really, which was the official charge or whatever, but for actually, you know, sleeping with underage girls. And how bad people's memories are when these things are brought up a couple decades later.

• 45:06Pablo Torre?

  I mean, by the way, all of this putting into perspective the fact that here's a guy in the black book, in the flight logs.

• 45:12Speaker 03

  Uh huh.

• 45:13Pablo Torre?

  We also, I don't think he even mentioned this in the episode, but he also got political donations from Jeffrey Epstein.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  I could tell that you were hinting at that.

• 45:20Pablo Torre?

  Yeah, so it was a-

• 45:21Speaker 04

  He really cut you off there at the end.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  Please, can we move on? I mean, this is just, I thought we were talking about sports and stuff. This is stuff 35 years ago. I don't have any relationships here. Moving on. So I'm going to leave. I'm sorry that, I mean, I wanted to talk about the good things.

• 45:38Pablo Torre?

  The brief catch-up is just that $1,000 from Jeffrey Epstein to Tom McMillan when he ran for Congress, a Democrat in Maryland in 1990, in November. And then $2,000 from Jeffrey Epstein to Tom McMillan. And this is labeled, by the way, February 18th, 1992. And the organization Epstein is listed as part of is Wexner Investment. But, one of the people who he is associated with because she wrote an email to Jeffrey Epstein well after he was established as a registered sex offender is this woman, Gwendolyn Beck.

• 46:12Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 46:13Pablo Torre?

  And Gwendolyn Beck is also someone named by Virginia Jufry as someone who participated in the orgies with Jeffrey Epstein and is in the flight logs more than a dozen times and has these emails. And she wrote this email to Epstein about Tom McMillan. Subject line, "Tom McMillan," saying, "I just met him. He had lost touch with you. Wanted to get back in touch with you." On and on and on. I say that to say that from the Melania perspective, there's also- Photography. There's a photo of Gwendolyn Beck and Melania Trump and Prince Andrew.

• 46:44Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 46:44Pablo Torre?

  It's just, you see all of these people, again, connected directly.

• 46:48Speaker 03

  Well, it's interesting, too, to bring up Gwendolyn Beck. I believe the orgy that Virginia Jeffrey is referring to with Prince Andrew and Jeffrey Epstein on the island was also an orgy that took place with several young women that were brought over, possibly on student visas, by Jean-Luc Brunel from Eastern Europe. And so Jean-Luc Brunel, again, like, he was a, he got Me Too'd before you could even really get Me Too'd.

• 47:13Pablo Torre?

  The Me First of Me Too.

• 47:14Speaker 03

  Yes. He was bad news, but he was able to resurrect his career in America with the help of a lot of people at powerful modeling agencies, including, of course, Jeffrey Epstein, who was connected to that.

• 47:25Speaker 04

  And Ghislaine Maxwell.

• 47:26Speaker 03

  And Ghislaine Maxwell, yeah.

• 47:27Speaker 04

  They were all such good friends.

• 47:34Pablo Torre?

  But speaking of such company, of this network of people, if you heard our last episode, you may recall me discussing this blog entitled Hollywood on the Potomac, which once posted a video of Tom McMillan's birthday party, which happened to be hosted by a Democratic lobbyist named Tom Quinn, who was also featured in the Epstein flight logs, as we reported. Elsewhere on Hollywood on the Potomac, on that blog, it turns out, there is another post, published in July 2012, about an email. An email apparently sent by Olympian and Rhodes Scholar Tom McMillan as a dispatch during the 2012 London Games.

• 48:15Pablo Torre?

  Quote, "Opening ceremonies on Friday night. Saturday night, a Rhodes Scholar party celebrating the 37 Rhodes Scholar Olympians and a black tie soiree with Fergie, Princess Beatrice, and Prince Andrew, and a very dashing crowd." End quote. And as I thought about that scene, it brought me back to Gwendolyn Beck. Because there is another email, another thing I just needed to show Grace and Liz before I let them go. Because the nonprofit investigative outlet, Dropsite News, has also been doing tremendous reporting on Jeffrey Epstein. And we'll link to their ongoing series in this episode's description. You should check it out.

• 49:02Pablo Torre?

  Last week, Dropsite very kindly shared a yet-to-be-released wave of Epstein emails, this time from Epstein's Yahoo account with Pablo Torre finds out.

• 49:17Pablo Torre?

  And I found another email from Gwendolyn Beck, and this was sent to Leslie Groff, who apparently was Jeffrey Epstein's assistant.

• 49:26Speaker 03

  One of many.

• 49:26Pablo Torre?

  One of many, and this is 2006. And Gwendolyn Beck wrote an email, and it is this kind of beautiful summation of the asymmetry between the emails that Jeffrey Epstein was receiving and the emails that were being sent in return. There's a big difference in how much people would like write paragraphs and paragraphs. And in this pitch from Gwendolyn Beck, who for the record has not responded to any of our requests for comment in any of our reporting, starting with Tom McMillan through to now, she pitches him on a product. Quote, "Hi Jeffrey, miss you exclamation point, hope all is well. I'm heading to South America for the holidays to explore new regions."

• 50:10Pablo Torre?

  Parentheses, "And yes, I will be staying with an Argentinian polo player for a few days." And parentheses, "Dot, dot, dot. Have been working with a group of investors to fund small companies." Parentheses, "Goat's milk, ice cream, etc." Dot, dot, close parentheses. "And ran across a company with such huge potential that I wanted to see if you're interested before I give it to them." Parentheses, "Because I really like you a lot better." Close parentheses, dot, dot, dot, dot, dot. The product basically shrinks the walls of the vagina. Dash, dash, dash. Takes 20 years off. Parentheses, "Forget Botox." Close parentheses. "It really works." Open parentheses. "However, I wish it was permanent." Close parentheses, period. "They are in the development stage, comma, still doing clinical trials and have a patent pending. Let me know if you have any interest in the deal."

• 50:52Pablo Torre?

  She goes on to give a name for the product. "Some blogs if you Google." Period. "Lots and lots of love." Love, capital L, comma, Gwendolyn. The response from Jeffrey Epstein to his assistant meant to presumably be returned to Gwendolyn Beck is, "Sounds goo, but I can't."

• 51:17Pablo Torre?

  So.

• 51:18Speaker 03

  What's the name of the product?

• 51:22Pablo Torre?

  I'll tell you off air.

• 51:23Speaker 03

  Did it ever come out?

• 51:26Pablo Torre?

  Yes.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Jesus Christ. Um, yeah, I think that just about sums it up. Jeffrey Epstein's emails, the ones that he sent, barely are rarely over a sentence or two. And I think that maybe, I don't know if there's a single one that has a fully grammatically correct

• 51:43Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 51:44Speaker 03

  sentence using all the right punctuation, everything like that, a- at all within the archives.

• 51:48Speaker 04

  He's a modernist.

• 51:49Pablo Torre?

  If you want to measure someone's power, you measure it in the difference between the effort someone puts into emailing you.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 51:56Pablo Torre?

  And the lack of effort you put in to respond.

• 51:59Speaker 03

  It's amazing.

• 52:00Speaker 04

  It is a kind of a power move. You're totally right. And almost every email of his, sent from my iPad.

• 52:07Pablo Torre?

  Race, Liz, this has been goo.

• 52:10Speaker 03

  This has been goo.

• 52:11Speaker 04

  This has been goo.

• 52:12Pablo Torre?

  Thank you for coming by the studio.

• 52:14Speaker 03

  Thank you for having us.

• 52:24Pablo Torre?

  This has been Pablo Torre Finds Out, a Meadowlark Media production. And I'll talk to you next time.