#762 Crypto Trends To Watch In 2022 w/ Graham Jenkin

Graham Jenkin is the CEO of CoinList. They recently ran a survey to 4,000 users asking them about the state of the crypto industry. Questions ranged from "What Technologies Do You Plan To Use in 2022?" to "What are your favorite use cases for blockchain?" and even "Do you think other countries will soon follow El Salvador's Bitcoin adoption?" In this conversation we break down the results from this survey and look ahead to the Crypto Industry in 2022. ======================= With 10M+ users, Crypto.com is the easiest place to buy, and sell 100+ cryptocurrencies. The Crypto.com Visa Card gives you up to 8% back instantly, and 100% back on Spotify and Netflix. Also, Crypto.com lets you earn up to 8.5% p.a. on BTC, and 14% p.a. on stablecoins. Get $25 when you download the Crypto.com App with code "pomp". Download the App now: https://crypto.onelink.me/J9Lg/pomppodcast2021 ======================= My friends at Coin Cloud will give you $50 in FREE Bitcoin when you buy $200 or more at any of their 4,000+ machines. Use promo code POMP to get your free Bitcoin. For details or to find your nearest Coin Cloud machine, visit www. Coin. Cloud/Pomp Coin Cloud has been serving customers since 2014 and has established itself as the world's leading digital currency machine (DCM) operator. More than just a Bitcoin ATM, Coin Cloud machines make it easy to buy and sell Bitcoin and 30+ other digital assets with cash. To find your local ATM and get $50 in free Bitcoin, visit www. Coin. Cloud/Pomp ======================= Ethernity.io: The world’s first authenticated and licensed NFT platform, trusted by over 150,000 members. Digital NFTs and exclusive real-world unlockables, authentic partnerships with athletes and artists. Visit Ethernity.io, where you can buy and sell authenticated NFTs from top notable figures, rights, license, and IP holders you can’t find anywhere else; the start of an entire ecosystem bringing utility to #NFTs. =======================

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Anthony Pompliano?

  What's up everyone, this is Anthony Pompliano. Most of you know me as Pomp. You're listening to the Pomp Podcast, simply the best podcast out there. Now let's kick this thing off. Graham Jenkins is the CEO of Coinlist. They recently ran a survey to about 4,000 of their users and asked them all sorts of things, from what technologies do you plan to use in 2022, to what are your favorite use cases for blockchain technology, and even whether you think that other countries will soon follow El Salvador's new Bitcoin adoption. I really enjoyed talking to Graham about this survey, and I hope you do as well. Before we get into this episode, though, I want to quickly talk about our sponsors.

• 0:43Anthony Pompliano?

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• 1:28Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:11Anthony Pompliano?

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• 2:51Anthony Pompliano?

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• 3:34Anthony Pompliano?

  All right, let's get into this episode. I hope you guys enjoy this one.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Anthony Pompliano runs POMP Investments. All views of him and the guests on his podcast are solely their opinions and do not reflect the opinions of POMP Investments. You should not treat any opinion expressed by POMP or his guests as a specific inducement to make a particular investment or follow a particular strategy, but only as an expression of his personal opinion. This podcast is for informational purposes only.

• 4:01Anthony Pompliano?

  We've got Graham from Coinlist who's joining us. Graham, how are you?

• 4:05Speaker 02

  I'm doing awesome. Good to meet you guys. How's it going?

• 4:08Anthony Pompliano?

  Absolutely. Great to see you. We got a whole bunch of stuff we're going to go through. You guys have kind of all these trends and predictions for 2022, but before we do that, maybe give us a very quick kind of overview in terms of Coinlist itself, the platform, the product suite, what you guys do.

• 4:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, sure. So Coinlist is the premier new token issuance platform, which means that we help find some of the best new emerging crypto projects, help them raise capital, help them build their communities, help them be successful in all kinds of different ways. And we've helped projects going way back to Filecoin in 2017, Algorand, Solana, Immutable X, Mina, a bunch of others. We've helped about 25 projects launch publicly at least on Coinlist, and then maybe another 40 that we've run private sales for. And around about 20% of the top 100 crypto assets by market cap have had some kind of relationship or help from Coinlist in getting there.

• 5:07Speaker 02

  So that's kind of our bread and butter. But you know, we, over time, we've expanded into a bunch of other things. So initially, we just focused on token issuance. Then eventually, we realized that a lot of these teams needed help distributing tokens to investors. And so we ended up building out a service for that as well. And then we realized that we had a bunch of tokens on the platform and users were just moving those tokens out to Binance or somewhere else to trade or land or stake. And so we ended up just building out those services as well. So now you can participate in token issuance on Coinlist, receive your tokens here, and then trade, land a stake on the one platform. So it's a one-stop shop for crypto early adopters. So that's a bit about us.

• 5:48Anthony Pompliano?

  Amazing. When we get into the 2022 trends, I'm just going to kind of go through a bunch that that seemed to have kind of bubbled up from from this report. The first is that the most in-demand category for all of blockchain technology in 2022 is gaming, which I think would surprise a lot of people. Why do you think gaming, there's so much demand for it? And then how do you see that actually playing out in the market?

• 6:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think gaming is an interesting space in that I think, you know, our audience that participated in the survey, that have these, help us derive these predictions, it's a pretty smart audience. These are early adopter types. They've been participating in token sales for a long time. And so they've got some insight as to what may be happening down the track, maybe a little bit more than a technical analyst. So so I think, you know, it's a relatively smart audience. And, you know, gaming, I think the thing about gaming is that it's not so much just about games themselves. It's really more about Kind of the ecosystems that are being developed by these projects. And maybe the best way to think about that is you guys probably know about Valve Corporation,

• 6:58Speaker 02

  the creators of Half-Life and other great games. They created a marketplace called Steam and Steam's a marketplace for gamers. It's also a community, it's its own ecosystem. And you know, what we're seeing with some of these crypto projects that are focused on gaming is that they're essentially building Steam, but Steam on steroids. So it has the marketplace, it has that community and ecosystem. These are also, they tend to be layer twos or rollups. So they address a lot of the kind of scaling and expense issues that you might ordinarily see with building directly on Ethereum, say. And so, and then on top of that, they also have the financial dimensions.

• 7:40Speaker 02

  They've got wallets, there's a currency, there's a financial ecosystem as well. So that's really kind of one of the big trends that we're seeing. And we saw that with, obviously, you know, Sky Mavis has done a great job with Axie Infinity. But what a lot of people aren't really looking at is Ronin as an ecosystem, not just as a wallet, but also has its own side chain. And you know, we've worked most recently with Immutable Team, who put out Immutable X, which is kind of their equivalent. They're the creators of God's Unchained and a bunch of other games. So, so I think that's kind of one nuance that when we talk about gaming, it's not just purely about games, it's really creating these gaming ecosystems, you know, Steam on steroids, as it were.

• 8:23Speaker 02

  The other thing that I think people are really excited about is that, you know, crypto for the longest time, there's just been massive user experience challenges. It's been really problematic for a lot of ordinary humans to engage with crypto, not just as a technology, but as a set of services, whether it's through DeFi or other systems. And you know, I think what's going on with gaming is that there's a recognition that the kind of UX needs that you have in creating games, not just in terms of the sort of skill or challenges that you need in order to participate in games, but just, I'm just talking user interface, like these, these systems need to be usable. And I think there's a recognition by our community that, you know, gaming could be

• 9:08Speaker 02

  the way, or at least one way, that we start to address a lot of these usability and UX issues in crypto more broadly. So I think that kind of the two nuances that we're seeing.

• 9:18Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that's very, very interesting. When you think about where a lot of this stuff is going to get built, you've basically gone out to the community and said, hey, where are you guys looking, right? Where else are people going to be building? And so the specific question was around what blockchain beyond Ethereum that they plan to interact with most in 2022. And 56% of respondents said Solana, followed by Binance Smart Chain at 48.8%, and then Polkadot at 47.9%. I think that those three would be the three that people would suggest, but there seems to be pretty high percentage of interest in things outside of just Bitcoin or Ethereum. How do you read into that? And kind of how do you think that really manifests itself in 2022?

• 10:02Speaker 02

  You know, I think there's a couple of nuances on this, too. It's kind of no surprise that if folks on Coinlist are going to be talking about Solana, just given that Solana is, you know, we ran the Solana auction in early 2020. And so there's quite a few happy Solana auction participants on Coinlist. So obviously, they're going to talk about Solana. You know, I think, I think really what's happening is a couple of things. Like, one is that it's still the vast majority of developers is still on Ethereum, and it's an incredibly vibrant ecosystem. There's a lot of tooling that's already been created by developers on Ethereum. We don't really see that changing, but I think we're definitely seeing a lot of developers moving away, moving

• 10:46Speaker 02

  to Solana, moving to Algorand and other chains. And, you know, I think, you know, part of that is scalability. Ethereum is on its way to solving a lot of scalability challenges. Solana and others have definitely kind of jumped ahead there in some ways. I think a lot of consumers are probably more excited to be anticipating applications directly on Solana and other chains, mainly because gas fees are problematic on Ethereum, at least Ethereum Layer 1. And so I think that's kind of encouraging a lot of developers to move to other chains. You know, that said, I do see that Ethereum is still probably going to be where the vast majority of action is happening.

• 11:28Speaker 02

  Solve a lot of these scalability problems. We've already seen quite a lot of progress. You know, the merge, the Ethereum merge is due to happen at some point, 2022, who knows, maybe 2023. But, you know, at least this year, we've started to see another aspect of scaling on Ethereum. Pick up a lot of steam, especially around sidechains, rollups. We're seeing that with Arbitrum, Optimism. So there's a lot of activity on these L2s, on these rollups, on these sidechains. And they address a lot of the scalability challenges that I think developers have had with respect to developing on Ethereum Layer One. So there's a lot of the gas fee issues, transaction speed issues.

• 12:09Speaker 02

  And so I think what we're going to see is a lot more activity on those rollups, on those sidechains and L2s, where the transactions are happening on the rollup and then eventually settling on Ethereum Layer One. We're definitely starting to see a lot of that. But then also more and more developers moving to other chains. I think in the long term, actually, a lot of the stuff, we should just be thinking about this as being plumbing, right? I mean, like back in the early days of the internet, you know, we're very obsessed with different protocols and we're obsessed with the technology. Eventually, we got to the point where we're just transacting, we're just doing e-commerce, just doing search. And all the protocol stuff, we just ended up just viewing as plumbing. I mean, I'm really hoping that we get to that at some point soon,

• 12:53Speaker 02

  because we're still very much obsessed with the technology, which is actually super cool. But, you know, I think ultimately, the system's meant to solve real use cases, solve real problems, as opposed to just being, you know, us just obsessing over the technology. And so hopefully, that may not happen in 2022, but hopefully the next couple of years.

• 13:14Anthony Pompliano?

  How do you think about that, right? In terms of the user experience and kind of the interfaces? Obviously, on the internet, I always joke that like, nobody cares what technology Google uses. They just know they type in a box and they get an answer. And it's like amazing experience, right? But there was the protocol wars during kind of the building of the internet. And so it sounds like you believe that very similarly, there's going to be these kind of protocol wars and debates about technological architecture. An infrastructure, but at the end of the day, 25 years from now, people are gonna be like, dude, I go to this website or I go to this, you know, kind of product. I click some buttons, it does what I want, it's amazing. Those fools that had all those arguments, you know, 25 years ago, like, thank God that they had the arguments, they figured it out. But like, I couldn't tell you what the actual technology is. Is that kind of how you see the world playing out, you know, in an over generalized way?

• 13:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:01Speaker 02

  I think that's right.

• 14:04Speaker 02

  It's gonna take a while for us to get there, though, you know, I think, and I think there's a couple of reasons why it's gonna take a while. I think, I think one is that we're really just starting to see the emergence of interblockchain protocols. IBC, which came out of Cosmos, is a great example of that. It's, it's allows developers to, you know, potentially build on Solana, have transactions be executed on Solana, but arguably, you know, end up being settled on Ethereum and the users just couldn't care less. And so I think the more that protocols or projects or efforts like IBC get pushed out there, the less we're really gonna care about what protocol people are developing on, etc.

• 14:48Speaker 02

  But I would kind of just want to provide on that, which is that the fact that there are markets, there are currencies associated with each of these protocols just creates, as you guys know better than anybody else, like creates these tribes where people are very, either rationally or irrationally obsessed with number go up with respect to that token. And I think that ends up, that, that kind of tribalism is something that we didn't really have in the kind of early internet, you know? But we have it now and, and it's incentivized by markets, liquid markets, and those liquid markets are really important.

• 15:26Speaker 02

  They're, they're not just fun, they're really important. Like, you need to have those liquid markets in order to incentivize miners or validators to secure these networks. So it's super important, but it does create a big distraction, does create this tribalism. So I think that's gonna slow us down and getting, getting to the point where we're, we're looking at this ecosystem as a, as a set of applications and don't actually care about the plumbing. I think we're gonna care about the plumbing for a little bit longer. But, but you know, hopefully we end up getting there, who knows when?

• 15:55Anthony Pompliano?

  Joe, what questions you got?

• 15:56Speaker 03

  Yeah, so when asked about the NFT use cases, it seems like a lot more people, forty forty percent of them said the metaverse is interesting and they're bullish on that and thirty seven percent said gaming, but tickets was only five percent, memberships was four percent, and crowdfunding was only four percent. How do you think about NFTs in all those environments?

• 16:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, you know, I was I was kind of quoted earlier on this year as saying, you know, I think NFTs are a little bit of a blown. So, you know, maybe I'm not the right person to ask about this stuff. But, uh, you know, I think what what we've seen happen with NFTs is, um, is that, you know, and, you know, if if people are talking about metaverse or applications with respect to NFTs, I mean, what what we're seeing is that NFTs are almost like a gateway into community. And, uh, you know, all of these, a lot of these, uh, these NFT, um, I guess offerings on on OpenSea or what have you, they they really end up being kind of the keys to give you access into some kind of community, whether it's DAO or

• 16:57Speaker 02

  something else. And we're seeing each of these communities, you're seeing lots of conversation, lots of discussion, lots of innovation, and lots of alpha. And, uh, I think over time, what what we're actually starting to see is that a lot of the lot of the projects that we work with, from a marketing standpoint, they want to try to work out, how do I get, how do I get access to that community? How do I, uh, market to them? How do I build a relationship with them? And, uh, you know, I used to work at Google, I used to work in in AdWords, and, uh, you know, bidding was was something that we're very much obsessed about there, and our customers are very obsessed with that. And, uh, you know, I think we've

• 17:37Speaker 02

  just got this really unique, new, bizarre form of targeting emerging around NFT communities. And, uh, I think we're going to start to see more and more of that in 2022. I don't know if this answered your question, but, you know, just thinking about NFTs, that's that's definitely one big trend that I'm seeing.

• 17:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think we could see a correction. But one thing I've always been fascinated with is the NFTs, is the ticket part of it? And why can't the issuing company, team, whatever it may be, get part of that resale value? If I buy a ticket, I sell to Anthony, Anthony sells it to you, like, why can't they get part of that instead of Ticketmaster as the platform getting part of that money?

• 18:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, that's super cool. Yeah, I think, and I mean, same applies to artists, right? And, you know, I think this is definitely going to be a lot, a lot more of that activity. I mean, it's just been such a unleashing of creativity, especially generative art. And I think we're going to see a ton more of that going into 2022.

• 18:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, there's so much weird, bizarre, easy to write off activity going in off in the NFT space, but it's definitely something that's going to continue to be a rich source of innovation in crypto.

• 18:43Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 18:43Anthony Pompliano?

  Graham, we obviously saw El Salvador kind of plug their entire country into Bitcoin and the network, the Lightning Network, and also the Bitcoin network. They've done everything from buy Bitcoin, they've made it legal tender, they've built out a whole network of ATMs, they're helping to facilitate their citizens with remittances, etc. One of the survey questions was all around, do you expect other countries to go ahead and do this as well? And a large portion of respondents said yes. What's your take on El Salvador, Bitcoin, and like other countries potentially following suit?

• 19:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, El Salvador is an interesting one. I mean, it's hard to, it's hard to think that El Salvador is necessarily going to be kind of the pinup nation, the old other nations are going to follow in a Bitcoin. But I think the principles hold, which is, which is that, you know, it's, it's a, it's a great recognition of the quality of what the Bitcoin network represents, right? You're talking about a very secure, very secure network. You're talking about transparent activity on that network. I mean, there are going to be more and more nations that eventually do this. I don't know if they're necessarily necessarily going to say that they're just following El Salvador, but, but I think it's, it's, it's definitely

• 19:59Speaker 02

  going to happen. And, you know, one of the interesting movements that is Going on in the US, I think, is just to name one project. I don't like to name individual projects, but but one project that I think is super interesting is Citycoin, which is, you know, allowing municipalities to to issue cryptocurrency and then benefit from transactions with respect to those networks. And that earns them revenue, which they're very excited about. So it's almost kind of like this backdoor way of getting broader governmental ecosystems and communities engaged in crypto. And, you know, I think I think the more that that happens, I think that that's it's almost

• 20:43Speaker 02

  kind of like the bottoms up way of getting communities addicted to and engaged in in the set of technologies. And so, yeah, you're going to have more more countries saying, okay, top down, we're going to adopt this currency. But I think you're also going to see bottoms up adoption from a municipality standpoint, from a local government standpoint, looking forward to seeing how that plays out.

• 21:06Speaker 03

  Grim, how do you evaluate new projects and tokens?

• 21:10Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, we kind of view it as it's almost like an early stage venture fund. So we get we get referred projects from our investor community. And, you know, when we when we take a look at those projects, you know, we're going to look at the same set of dimensions as you might if you're just looking at an early stage, any early stage company. So we're going to look at the team, who are the founders, what have they done before? What's their background? What schools do they go to? What have they built before? So that's number one. Number two is the product itself. So what does the what does the product do? Is it a DAP? Is it a protocol? You know, what market is it tackling? Is it tackling a market that's going to be of interest to our community?

• 21:54Speaker 02

  So that's kind of the second thing. The third thing is traction. So what have they built already? Have they already launched test net? How many users are in their Telegram channel or the Discord servers? So that's kind of the third piece, traction. And then the fourth piece would be social proof. So who's invested? Who's advising? All that stuff. So that ends up being kind of another strong signal too. And so we take those four different dimensions and then you kind of get a mosaic. You get an aggregate picture of the team, what they're doing. And we run investment committee or the equivalent of investment committee on Mondays. And folks in the team are writing up investment memos.

• 22:39Speaker 02

  We review the memos and we thumbs up, thumbs down. So it's similar to an early stage venture firm and we try to keep that quality about high.

• 22:47Speaker 03

  Nice. That's a great way to look at it.

• 22:49Anthony Pompliano?

  What's been the biggest surprise of 2021? When you look back for the year?

• 22:54Speaker 02

  The biggest surprise is really kind of the bull market, which was just ferocious with respect to new token issuance. Like we saw toward the end of last year, actually, maybe just to throw some numbers at that. Toward the end of last year, we had about 150,000 28 day actives. And now we're at about 5 million 28 day actives. And a lot of that has really been driven by what we've seen in the new token issuance market. You know, we weren't expecting the kind of volumes that we've seen. We weren't expecting the kind of growth that we've been seeing in new token issuance. It's just ferocious appetite for new token issuance.

• 23:39Speaker 02

  And it's obviously not just on Coinlist, it's industry wide. So that kind of demand definitely took us by surprise. We've had to take some drastic measures to try to scale up and still got a lot of work to do there. And but, you know, we're eventually getting on top of it. But that that ferocious demand is something that we just were not expecting. That was definitely the biggest surprise for us.

• 24:01Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah. The other thing that I think is really interesting too, is as more and more people become interested and educated in this industry, more and more of them are choosing to store the majority of their wealth or their funds in digital assets, whether that's stable coins, Bitcoin, something else, whatever. We've seen study after study that highlights that. How does that change some of that investor demand from what you guys are seeing?

• 24:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, I think it just boosted dramatically. You know, there's

• 24:27Speaker 02

  A lot of folks out there have done really well just holding Bitcoin. And that's been really profitable for a lot of people. But I think there's a lot of folks out there that just recognize that, okay, I've got to take a portion of that and try to make some earlier stage bets. And, you know, that I think that's something that we're definitely seeing. And, you know, I think there's, there's almost an aspect of portfolio philosophy or portfolio strategy with respect to crypto holdings. I think, I think a while ago, people were saying, you know, you should have X percent of your net worth in US equities and X percent of your net worth in, I don't know, bonds, if you, if people still do that. And then maybe 5% crypto.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  And, you know, I think now what we're seeing is that it's, it's shifted a little bit. So a lot of folks that are on our platform are like, okay, well, I'm 100% in crypto. And, but it's portfolio strategy that just zooms specifically into crypto, where I might have the vast majority of my holdings in Bitcoin. I'm going to have a chunk of my holdings in kind of, you know, newer assets, a chunk of stuff that's in, you know, pre-launch assets. And, and so I think that ends up playing out in terms of the kind of demand that we're seeing on Coinlist.

• 25:42Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, that makes, makes a ton of sense. Last thing I'll say is the community, there's tons and tons of questions about the Coinlist community here. How do you think about interacting with them, managing them, you know, good actors, bad actors, spam? Like, there's all these things that I think happen in large communities like this, especially when money and investing is involved. Just any thoughts there in terms of like how, as the community's grown, you guys have, have looked at the policies or the way that you interact with, with the community?

• 26:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. Yeah, it's been, it's definitely been challenging this year, just given the kind of growth that we've seen. But, you know, one of the things that we've, we've tried to do is, you know, give our users some kind of quality score, as it were. Like, to what extent are you, as a community member on Coinlist, contributing to the success of projects? And the way that we express that Is through a program that we call Karma, Coinless Karma. It's essentially, it looks like a loyalty program, but you end up scoring points based on, based on those contributions. So if you're a validator or a miner, you get a chunk of points. If you have demonstrated a long-term commitment to projects through token sales,

• 26:56Speaker 02

  or if you're a developer, you get another chunk. If you're more likely to stake assets instead of dump them, then you're going to get some additional points. And so that gives us an aggregate view of the kind of contributions that community members on Coinless are able to make to projects. And I'm really excited about this program. And if you think about, say, what Vitalik has been saying a little bit just around, you know, governance and the fact that it's really just kind of the large coin holders who get the vast majority of weighting in terms of their vote. And, you know, that's an okay system, but it's somewhat imperfect because it doesn't really measure the contributions that team members are making or individuals are making of these projects.

• 27:41Speaker 02

  And it means that, you know, the VCs and the early team members have kind of all of the weighting in terms of voting. So, you know, what we're excited about with Karma is that that kind of balances that out a little bit. It means that it's not just the size of the assets that you're holding that determines your value to a community. It's the contributions you're making. Are you a developer? You committing code, you running nodes? And that ends up being weighted pretty heavily too. So, yes, Karma is a big part of the way that we're trying to, you know, address issues of how we manage community. And, you know, we're rewarding folks to have high karma by giving them access or easier access into the projects we're seeing on the platform. So, and that's working out pretty well so far.

• 28:21Anthony Pompliano?

  Yeah, it's fascinating when you start to think about kind of how that's evolving. Where can we send people to follow you on the internet? Or to learn more about Coinless or sign up?

• 28:34Speaker 02

  Coinless.co is the place. And I'm Graham Jenkin on Twitter. And, you know, we're also on Twitter, obviously. So Coinless on Twitter is great. But yeah, Coinless.co is the place. That's me.

• 28:47Anthony Pompliano?

  Awesome, man. Well, listen, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. The survey was, uh, was super interesting to kind of see what everyone's thinking about. And we'll definitely have to do it again if you guys run it next year.

• 28:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, absolutely. And next year I'll be wearing one of your, uh, holiday sweaters. I bought one this morning.

• 29:00Anthony Pompliano?

  Let's go.

• 29:02Speaker 02

  Let's go.

• 29:04Anthony Pompliano?

  I love it, man. All right. Well, you have a great, uh, holidays and then we'll, uh, we'll talk in the new year.