Building Your Own Lane with Natasha Rothwell

Natasha Rothwell—fresh off her second Emmy nomination—is serving jokes and gems! She and Keke talk dating app chaos, what it means to embrace being plus size in Hollywood and a little “neurospicy,” and dealing with imposter syndrome when returning to White Lotus. And baby, if you’ve ever wondered how she really felt about her character’s ending on Insecure, Natasha’s giving it to us straight. She also teases her next big swing: adapting and playing Reesa Teesa in her viral Who TF Did I Marry? saga. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:05Keke Palmer?

  Today's guest is what I call the real deal. Emmy nominated, scene stealing, and a multi hyphenate to the core. Natasha Rothwell has written for SNL, Lit Up the Screen, and Insecure, made us feel things on The White Lotus, and created her own lane with How to Die Alone. Now, she's adapting Risa Teese's viral series and showing us what it means to lead with heart, humor, and hella vision. From military brat to creative powerhouse, Natasha is giving main character energy on screen and off screen. Baby, this is Natasha Rothwell.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  A dark night, a quiet house, but inside, danger was lurking.

• 1:12Speaker 02

  Oh, not really. We have Xfinity Shield, so we're not worried. What if protecting your home and devices could be drama-free? Xfinity. Imagine that. Restrictions apply. Not available in all areas.

• 1:23Keke Palmer?

  This episode is presented in partnership with Airbnb, where the best end of summer memories are made with your closest friends. Now, let's get on with the show.

• 1:34Keke Palmer?

  Natasha, I am so happy to have you on the show, girl. I feel like I always see you out.

• 1:41Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 1:41Keke Palmer?

  While I was at an event, saying hi and bye real quick, we never had the time to really kiki and get it together.

• 1:45Speaker 03

  No, I'm so excited. Like, to be across from you and not have to worry about, you know, 100 other people.

• 1:50Keke Palmer?

  Yes. How are you? And did you find that bag at the front of any fair party?

• 1:54Speaker 03

  Yes. So I, like, losing things is, I have ADHD real, real bad. So, my purse, I had sat down somewhere and then spent the rest of the event hunting for it.

• 2:06Keke Palmer?

  That is too funny, but I'm glad you found it.

• 2:08Speaker 03

  I found it.

• 2:09Keke Palmer?

  So, we do the pre-show, uh, pull-up questionnaire and I'm excited to get into your mind and see what vibes we have today. So it says, "Today I'm giving whimsy," which I feel you always give, it just lights up every room, "with a side of cleavage."

• 2:20Speaker 03

  Hello!

• 2:21Keke Palmer?

  Because when you've got it, you've got a flaunt it.

• 2:24Speaker 03

  You know, there's no hiding it.

• 2:25Keke Palmer?

  Girl, when I tell you my son took all my cleavage? The, the very little that I had, I mean, he just sucked it all out.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  He sucked it dry.

• 2:31Keke Palmer?

  Girl, it's so crazy.

• 2:32Speaker 03

  But cleavage is also a mentality.

• 2:33Keke Palmer?

  I love that.

• 2:34Speaker 03

  So you also, you got cleavage, girl.

• 2:36Keke Palmer?

  And girl, you know, growing up, I, I did a couple of projects with Queen Latifah, and let me just tell you, she leads with cleavage.

• 2:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:42Keke Palmer?

  Queen is gonna have some shoulders back.

• 2:44Speaker 03

  Shoulders back, girls.

• 2:45Keke Palmer?

  I'm Dana.

• 2:46Speaker 03

  Listen.

• 2:49Keke Palmer?

  Okay, so whimsy, a side of cleavage.

• 2:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:51Keke Palmer?

  Today's mood in one word, I'm always living here, curious.

• 2:54Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:55Keke Palmer?

  Curious.

• 2:56Speaker 03

  I'm curious.

• 2:56Keke Palmer?

  About life.

• 2:58Speaker 03

  I ask questions all the time. My, I used to get in trouble when I was in school for saying "why." And I would get, like, I, I had the grades to support it, so they'd get annoyed, because they're like, "Well, she's getting As, but like, stop asking why."

• 3:10Keke Palmer?

  She's gonna find out we're stupid.

• 3:11Speaker 03

  Yes, exactly, exactly. But I was always asking why.

• 3:14Keke Palmer?

  I love that, I was the same, I mean, I would ask my mom, "Why about the sun? Why is the sun yellow?" Because it is, well, why would yellow be the one that, why would that be the color of the deck?

• 3:22Speaker 03

  Why?

• 3:22Keke Palmer?

  Girl, everything. Okay, what did you listen to on the ride here? Motown and The Daily?

• 3:28Speaker 03

  Yes, so, on the ride here, I had to take some calls, so I went with what was on just before I left.

• 3:33Keke Palmer?

  Okay, okay.

• 3:33Speaker 03

  So, I listened to The Daily all the time, the podcast, The New York Times, it just sets my day.

• 3:37Keke Palmer?

  You like news?

• 3:38Speaker 03

  I like news, I like to know how [BLEEP] we are, you know what I'm saying?

• 3:41Keke Palmer?

  Girl, because we need to know.

• 3:42Speaker 03

  We need to know. Um, and then, I put on Motown mornings, I like to, just like, a, a nice, fun, sort of morning.

• 3:49Keke Palmer?

  Yes, I love that, shout out to Motown and The Daily. Um, the last screenshot on your phone, no deleting, show me now.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  Hey, bae.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  We are, we came to play. Let's pull it up.

• 4:04Keke Palmer?

  Let's put it up.

• 4:05Speaker 03

  Let's pull it up, no deleting, screenshot. Oh, no.

• 4:09Keke Palmer?

  I'm so excited.

• 4:12Keke Palmer?

  Oh, yes. Love Island.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Love Island.

• 4:15Keke Palmer?

  Girl, we gotta get a sideline of this real quick. So Janae, obviously, listeners, if you know Love Island, great. If you don't, let me put you on game. So Janae, who was on the season before the most recent, she was with a guy named Kenny. Her and Kenny, we seen, you know, we were happy for them. We were rooting for them. We were like, yes, our girl got a man.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 4:31Keke Palmer?

  Well, come to find out, things went hate wire. She, the screenshot that I'm reading from Natasha's phone is, "Hi, my loves. Thank you for all your love and support. It means the world to me. As you know, Kenny and I are no longer together. Please know that I have seen all the breakup theories, and none have matched up to how terrible, disgusting, and disappointing it truly has. Discovering that someone you loved isn't who you thought they were, and the relationship you thought you were building hasn't been genuine since day one, has been truly devastating. Thank you for respecting my privacy, and please know, as a child of God, I will always be okay."

• 5:04Speaker 03

  Hey!

• 5:05Keke Palmer?

  She ate that, first of all. Second of all, we come to find out that Kenny had been talking to his homeboys, saying he don't like black women.

• 5:11Speaker 03

  He don't like black women.

• 5:12Keke Palmer?

  He thought he would get more money from this.

• 5:14Speaker 03

  Yes, doing it for the clout.

• 5:15Keke Palmer?

  Exactly. And, I mean, it's, and, girl, when you seen that [BLEEP]?

• 5:20Speaker 03

  I, he [BLEEP] the bag. I mean, look at her.

• 5:23Keke Palmer?

  Girl!

• 5:23Speaker 03

  Not just physically, but her, like, she's smart. She's funny.

• 5:27Keke Palmer?

  I don't know about you. But I feel like we're in this era where people are so obsessed with clout, fame, and money. It doesn't actually even matter how gorgeous, smart, cool, handsome, whatever, whatever side of it that you're on. It doesn't matter that you're actually awesome.

• 5:41Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 5:41Keke Palmer?

  Sometimes people are just so hell-bent on this superficiality of, of, of personal success.

• 5:47Speaker 03

  Yeah. And I'm like, her beauty is the least interesting thing about her. She has so much more to give. And the fact that he was so negative about black women, who, you know, and I'm biased, I think that we are exquisite.

• 6:03Keke Palmer?

  I mean, what's the damn prob-

• 6:05Speaker 03

  What's the damn problem?

• 6:06Keke Palmer?

  I mean, all people have issues.

• 6:07Speaker 03

  All of them.

• 6:08Keke Palmer?

  But we, like, have the least issues.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  The least. What I think is that he was with a woman that held him accountable.

• 6:14Keke Palmer?

  And that- Now, isn't that always? I was just talking to my girlfriend about that. Where I was like, girl, it gets to the point where it's like, just me being me doesn't make you secure.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:23Keke Palmer?

  I can't not be me, so I guess I'm just gonna be chilling over on the side.

• 6:27Speaker 03

  Listen.

• 6:27Keke Palmer?

  Because this whole thing of always having to ride the fence of not messing up how you feel about you and not hindering your confidence or your...

• 6:36Speaker 03

  Uh-uh, figure it out. I'm so, I, I, I call my house my peace palace.

• 6:39Keke Palmer?

  Girl.

• 6:40Speaker 03

  I have created a life of stasis. I'm happy. I am at peace. I, I can do for myself.

• 6:47Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 6:48Speaker 03

  So for me, a man, in order to be a part of this, he has to be additive. And that thing is not a financial additive. It's not that. Be additive to my life.

• 6:57Keke Palmer?

  To my life.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  To my soul. Pour into me. So for me, I'm just like, Janae got the biggest blessing.

• 7:04Keke Palmer?

  Absolutely. Because who wants to be caught up in something like that for life? Okay, what is your zodiac sign? And I love that you know your big three. Because a lot of people come up on here, they don't know the real deal.

• 7:13Speaker 03

  Well, they don't really know themselves.

• 7:15Keke Palmer?

  They don't know they self.

• 7:16Speaker 03

  If they don't know they self, they don't, they need to know their big three.

• 7:19Keke Palmer?

  So you have a Libra sun, an Aquarius moon,

• 7:22Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 7:22Keke Palmer?

  and a Sagittarius rising.

• 7:24Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 7:24Keke Palmer?

  Girl, this is an incredible chart that we have going on here.

• 7:27Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have the, you know, my rising, I've gotten to know over time. Because I was always, you know, just Libra, Libra, Libra.

• 7:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 7:34Speaker 03

  But my rising is really allowing me to step into sort of like, a bit of a transient lifestyle. I'm on the go all the time.

• 7:40Keke Palmer?

  Girl, you're so funny. I mean, I feel that Sag energy from you all the time. And different, in different characters, like obviously, I feel like I've definitely got that in Kelly.

• 7:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, Kelly was, yes.

• 7:48Keke Palmer?

  She gave us that.

• 7:49Speaker 03

  She was a Sag, babe.

• 7:49Keke Palmer?

  Yes. But the Aquarius, that's that brilliance. Aquarius is so brilliant. I don't know that a lot of people always get into that sign.

• 7:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:57Keke Palmer?

  But they are really...

• 7:58Speaker 03

  They're sneaky mad geniuses.

• 8:00Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 8:00Speaker 03

  They're like, not afraid to be weird or quirky. They like to try new things, so...

• 8:05Keke Palmer?

  So love me an Aquarius.

• 8:06Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 8:06Keke Palmer?

  Okay, what is the most unexpected thing on your talent rider? Oh, this is so cute. Jerky and Jolly Ranchers. She said salty and sweet.

• 8:15Speaker 03

  I like a little salty and sweet.

• 8:16Keke Palmer?

  Now, what's your favorite Jolly Rancher color?

• 8:18Speaker 03

  Cherry.

• 8:19Keke Palmer?

  Girl, mine's too.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  I just like a little cherry. I will pop, like, sometimes being on set, it's just like, I need something a little sweet.

• 8:24Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 8:24Speaker 03

  So I just put a little cherry in there.

• 8:26Keke Palmer?

  My niece, she had a, uh, she was kept, had a pocket full of Jolly Ranchers. She said, "Hey auntie, you want some, uh, Jolly Ranchers?" And I was like, "Yeah, you mind what color?" And she said, "Whatever you want." I said, "Cherry." She said, "Hmm, I don't like those." I said, "You can take it." I was just thrilled.

• 8:38Speaker 03

  I was just.

• 8:39Keke Palmer?

  Why she had them in her pocket, I don't know, but it was what I needed.

• 8:41Speaker 03

  It's what you needed.

• 8:42Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean?

• 8:42Speaker 03

  I don't need to know where you got them. I just know that you have them and I can get them. That's it.

• 8:48Keke Palmer?

  Okay, and then may I have your autograph? You gave me your autograph.

• 8:50Speaker 03

  I said.

• 8:50Keke Palmer?

  I'm selling this. Now, I'm so happy to have you on the show. I was interested. You grew up as a military kid.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 8:57Keke Palmer?

  So tell me where some of the places you lived growing up and what that was like.

• 9:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, my dad was in the Air Force for over 35 years. And I was born in Wichita, Kansas. I lived in New Jersey. I lived in, uh, Inzorlik, Turkey, when I was like.

• 9:09Keke Palmer?

  Turkey.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  Turkey, when I was like from two to four, so like two years there. Uh, Illinois, Florida.

• 9:15Keke Palmer?

  Illinois, shout out.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Yep, I was in, right outside of St. Louis. Um, and then my dad retired, uh, as the commander of Fort Dix in New Jersey. But before that, he was at the Pentagon and he was also at Andrews Air Force Base.

• 9:30Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 9:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, and so we moved around a ton and so that's all I knew. And it's also, I think, uniquely equipped me for being an artist because when you're on set, it's like almost a military base. You're there.

• 9:42Keke Palmer?

  Yes, it is.

• 9:43Speaker 03

  You do a tour duty. You all have the lived experience. Then it goes away, you move on to the next. So I think it uniquely equipped me for this lifestyle, for sure.

• 9:51Keke Palmer?

  Well, thank you, your father, for his service.

• 9:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 9:54Keke Palmer?

  Now, when you were in school, in your college, you read Langston Hughes' Dream Deferred?

• 9:58Speaker 03

  I did.

• 9:59Keke Palmer?

  And it made you switch your major. So what was your original major? And then tell me about the process of finding that piece.

• 10:04Speaker 03

  Yes, journalism. So I've always written. I loved writing and, but I knew I wanted to be an actor. And I had told myself that my parents were just, you know, they would hate it and they would just like, I just, you know, drama, right? I was just like inserting drama where there was no drama. I was just like, they're gonna hate it, so I'm gonna major in journalism. And then I saw this play, House of Blue Leaves, at Ithaca College. I was there my freshman year. And in the program, they had Langston Hughes, A Dream Deferred. I just remember sitting in a seat, reading it and sobbing. And I was just like, I'm deferring a dream right now. And so I went home for Christmas break, sat my parents down, and I was like, I'm gonna come out as a thespian. And I was like, I gotta tell y'all I wanna be acting. And the first thing was just like.

• 10:50Speaker 03

  We were confused when you said journalism, but we thought that's what you want. So they ruined my dramatic moment. I was like, well, I'm gonna do acting. They're like, of course. And so

• 10:58Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  They were so supportive and I ended up transferring to University of Maryland. I got a full ride for acting. Yeah.

• 11:04Keke Palmer?

  Now, isn't it so funny how our parents just know us?

• 11:07Speaker 03

  They know us.

• 11:07Keke Palmer?

  Because obviously they've watched us before we've arrived at who we are.

• 11:10Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:10Keke Palmer?

  Was there ever a moment in time where they were like, this is when we knew, or this is how we knew?

• 11:14Speaker 03

  I mean, I was performative from, I mean, my dad was also an early adapter with technology. So he had the video camera that was like on your shoulder in the eighties.

• 11:23Keke Palmer?

  Come on, daddy.

• 11:23Speaker 03

  So there's VHS of me just like putting on like my mom's shoes and like performing. I was always performing. And I think for them to nurture that and to see that and to allow me to like step into that, I'm just so grateful they didn't hinder it. And, you know, I grew up, like my family's a family of faith. And so they're just like, you're called to this, like lean into your purpose. And as scary as that was, I knew I had them, you know, rooting me on. So that's really what changed it for me. And I was like, I dove, from that point, I didn't look back.

• 11:54Keke Palmer?

  I love that. Nothing better than a family's support.

• 11:57Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 11:57Keke Palmer?

  I mean, you've done everything from hitting your mark to writing, to producing, show running, from Insecure to White Lotus. And now, Risa Tisa, I'm very excited about this girl. I mean, what drives you to stay in all those lanes? And how did it come to? Like, which one came first? I know acting did, but in terms of professional?

• 12:14Speaker 03

  Well, I have to credit Issa. I mean, I didn't grow up in a time where multi-hyphenates were a thing.

• 12:20Keke Palmer?

  Same.

• 12:21Speaker 03

  So when I got to the writer's room at Insecure, I was there to write. I had, like, Kelly didn't exist yet. So I was there writing and I had a theater degree for acting and I would put out this little Netflix special and, but I was there. I didn't want to be perceived as anything else but writing. And I just remember when Kelly became to be and she was on the paper. She and Prentice were just like, we want you to play her. And I broke down in tears because I was like, oh, she sees all of me. And they're letting me be all of me. They're not saying stay in one lane. They're just like, you can do this, let's do this. You can do that, let's do that. And then cut to season five, I'm directing, I'm producing. And so to be around someone who's a multi hyphenate, who could just like game recognize game.

• 13:03Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 13:04Speaker 03

  And she was just like, not only that, I'm going to give you opportunity. And so I've tried to model that in how I'm creating and with my production company, Big Hattie. Just how do I replicate giving that opportunity to other people? And to let them know they don't have to stay in one lane. They can switch lanes and explore theirself creatively. And their creative voice in whatever lane makes sense.

• 13:25Keke Palmer?

  Shout outs to Issa Rae. I had amazing experience with her as well.

• 13:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:30Keke Palmer?

  I've been funneling with this thought in my mind. Is it that we actually have to be multi hyphenates to be able to get the stories that we want told told? You know, because I think there's this thing where it's like, oh, we waiting for doors to be opened and we gonna get this opportunity? And you know, at some point, somebody's gonna get it. But it's like, if we have to be the nuance, then should we just become the nuance?

• 13:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I mean, for me, I had this conversation recently because it's exhausting being a multi. It's exhausting creating for yourself and opening, creating the door and walking through the door. And of course, I wish there were, the environment in Hollywood wasn't so that the thing that I'm doing, because I love it, wasn't something I had to do in order to do it. So there's this mandate that, you know, if we want to be on screen, if we want our stories told, we have to do it ourselves because they're not doing it for us, which I think is true. And while I love doing it, it is that kind of like, it is, damn, it is exhausting that like, if I want this thing made or want to see myself, I think that's how my show How to Die Alone came about.

• 14:34Speaker 03

  It was like, I wrote this thing because I don't see. You know, brown girls with big titties in any other light. So I had to create a light that felt more familiar and that expressed my experience. No one else was going to do that. And so there's this like, it's part gratitude for the opportunity to do it. But it's also, there can be resentment because it's just like, why do I have to? Why can't the industry be such where they want these voices and, you know, understand that black people were not a monolith? Like, we, we come in all shades, all colors, all stories. And so I'll do it because I love it, but it's also, I, I need to do that to make sure that the door stays open for the stories that are coming.

• 15:13Keke Palmer?

  And I do hope and I do believe like creators such as yourself, or we're speaking about people like Issa Rae, I mean, Jordan Peele, oh my gosh, like those, I do hope and I feel that we're creating a foundation of work and hopefully IP that can at least stand as an example.

• 15:25Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 15:26Keke Palmer?

  To what can be done and what should be done, even if it's not us doing it. That's the hope, but I do feel the same as you, like, we do have to do it. If we want to do it, we gotta be the change that we want to see.

• 15:36Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 15:36Keke Palmer?

  Now, you said Insecure taught you how to write with vulnerability and White Lotus stretched you as an actor. What did How to Die Alone teach you as a showrunner? Because that is a difficult job, mama.

• 15:47Speaker 03

  That's a difficult job.

• 15:48Keke Palmer?

  Showrunning is no joke.

• 15:50Speaker 03

  It's no joke.

• 15:50Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 15:51Speaker 03

  But I loved it. It was just like, my ADHD was like, I was built for this moment.

• 15:57Speaker 03

  I was built for this, like, just the number of plates that are spinning, like, I was never bored. And being able to create something, it's the most vulnerable thing I've put out into the world. It's an intimate story, it's a funny story, and I knew what it is I wanted to create. And so, showrunning was my, my vantage point to protect the story and the integrity of the story. And so I was so grateful that like, every single decision, I was able to make sure that it felt true to the story that I wanted to tell. And it's not for the weak. And I also, that experience taught me, I, just because I can do it and I can do it at a level that's, that-

• 16:41Speaker 03

  Got the show awards and feels good about.

• 16:43Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 16:44Speaker 03

  Doesn't mean I want to do that for just anybody. Because I know what it takes. When you know the emotional toll, you know the sweat equity of what it takes to do something.

• 16:52Keke Palmer?

  It's so funny what you're saying there because I had saw an article, something I had seen online. I don't want to totally botch it, but Martin Lawrence was talking about how doing Thin Line Between Love and Hate almost killed him. Because he acted, he wrote it, and he was starring in it. I mean, excuse me, and he was directing it. I don't know exactly everything, but he was doing a lot.

• 17:08Speaker 03

  He was doing a lot.

• 17:09Keke Palmer?

  And he was like, that almost killed me. I'm curious for you, I mean, obviously you kind of said it there, but like, it is hard to direct yourself or to produce yourself.

• 17:18Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:18Keke Palmer?

  How did you kind of switch gears or know how to tap in and be able to still focus on your role?

• 17:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 17:24Keke Palmer?

  While keeping the whole infrastructure of the building together?

• 17:26Speaker 03

  Well, I definitely, I took lessons from Insecure because it was making sure that like, every script that for every episode was complete before I got to set.

• 17:35Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 17:36Speaker 03

  Because I knew that when I was there, I would have trouble downshifting into the writer's mode than to there. So it was a lot of prep work to make that easier. But I, it is not, it's not for the weak. It certainly isn't. But I also felt like there is something that happens to you when you are in flow and operating from your purpose. My battery was charged and I didn't know how. Do you know what I mean? Like, I was on two hours sleep and I was like, how am I energized right now? How am I? And people would comment on set constantly be like, you're still going? And I'm just like, it's in me. Like, something is lit in me and this is what I'm supposed to be doing.

• 18:12Keke Palmer?

  Girl, Lily has been touching my heart because I know the exact feeling of what it means when you're saying being in your flow. It does have you high in the sky.

• 18:19Speaker 03

  In the sky.

• 18:20Keke Palmer?

  It's a feeling that you can't explain because you're just like, I'm in my flow, I'm in my go.

• 18:23Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 18:24Keke Palmer?

  Like, and I'm not letting out.

• 18:25Speaker 03

  No.

• 18:25Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, it's so good.

• 18:26Speaker 03

  And you just feel like the wind is at your back. And I think that what that taught me is just like, Remember this feeling because then you'll know what it feels like to be forcing something.

• 18:37Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 18:38Speaker 03

  You'll know what it's like when you are pushing it and that energy is not coming from the, you know, the, the purpose within you. It's coming from something that you want that's more carnal and not coming from the place that feels right and feels aligned. And so it really taught me to like, listen to that and honor that. And so when I'm picking jobs, reading scripts, if I'm feeling like, oh, this could be a way for me to tap into that flow and that purpose, it's an easier, it's a hell yes, right?

• 19:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, that's important to say because sometimes we are in like a, I don't mind the concept of hustling, but I think it also undercuts the reality of this flow that you're speaking of. It's like, yes, put yourself out there. Yes, be prepared. But also there's a reality where you don't want to reach.

• 19:19Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 19:20Keke Palmer?

  You know, you just want to land.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 19:21Keke Palmer?

  Um, we gotta always remember that because it's like, once you put your time into something that doesn't mean anything, then you're working, you're working an uphill.

• 19:27Speaker 03

  That's right. That's right.

• 19:29Keke Palmer?

  Well, I obviously have to ask because we talked a little bit about it at the top, but as a multi hyphenate, we got a lot of stuff going on being a busy bee. But we also got love life. So how, how are you navigating relationships in this time, girl? Because I'm having a hard time.

• 19:43Speaker 03

  Me too.

• 19:44Keke Palmer?

  Don't you just look in the mirror, you're like, I'm very fine.

• 19:46Speaker 03

  I'm very fine.

• 19:47Keke Palmer?

  Funny and cool. I got a lot of stuff going on.

• 19:49Speaker 03

  I got time.

• 19:50Keke Palmer?

  Why am I not the most eligible bachelorette?

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Hello.

• 19:53Keke Palmer?

  Let's go.

• 19:54Speaker 03

  I'm like, I mean, girl, girl.

• 19:57Keke Palmer?

  It's so crazy.

• 19:58Speaker 03

  It's actually crazy. It's actually crazy. I, because the thing is, is that like, two things can be true at once, right?

• 20:04Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:05Speaker 03

  I can be happy, I can be whole, I can be at peace, but I can also want someone to share this with.

• 20:09Keke Palmer?

  I want to be pursued. Run and chase me down the street.

• 20:12Speaker 03

  Down. I got a soft life. Give me a pillow. Make it softer. I mean, hello?

• 20:19Keke Palmer?

  I mean, and it's like, also, how do we meet people today, these days? Like, my girlfriend and I, we're like, do I need to go down to the bar and sit down? I was talking to Jill Marie Jones and Jill was telling me, she was like, girl, you gotta go to the bar and chill.

• 20:30Speaker 03

  Whoa.

• 20:30Keke Palmer?

  I'm like, if that's where they are.

• 20:32Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go there because I'm tired. The apps are rough.

• 20:36Keke Palmer?

  The apps are so.

• 20:37Speaker 03

  Because they, they're also just like, oh, I know you from so, like, everyone, and I'm just like, don't talk to me. Like, that's just, come on.

• 20:44Keke Palmer?

  It's just not giving, and I, I miss the days, or at least, I miss the days watching on TV.

• 20:48Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 20:49Keke Palmer?

  Where people were meeting at the club, or meeting out at the lounge.

• 20:52Speaker 03

  LA's hard for that. LA's hard for like.

• 20:54Keke Palmer?

  Do I need to take my ass to DC?

• 20:55Speaker 03

  A DC, New York, something. I know, I set my parameters to London at one point. I was like, maybe there's a bloke across the sea that can handle it, because I got a bloke or something.

• 21:06Keke Palmer?

  I live for bloke.

• 21:07Speaker 03

  I was like, find me a bloke, because I'm just like, I wanna, like, see the world, I wanna have fun, but it's also just like, I think men need to just, like, come and just be, like, step up. I ain't gonna chase you, trust me.

• 21:20Keke Palmer?

  Everybody is so tense. I also feel, like, everybody's tense, timid, you know, don't wanna be a joke, don't wanna be cringe. I've seen this quote from Donald Glover, he said, nobody's gonna be, like, looking at your deathbed and being like, oh, my gosh, he was so cringe.

• 21:33Speaker 03

  That's right. Cringe, it's like cringe to care. No, be cringey.

• 21:38Keke Palmer?

  And have fun, and like, even if love only lasts for two weeks, let it last for two weeks and let's move on.

• 21:44Speaker 03

  I'm a Libra, I fall, I crush on this mic stand, you know what I mean? Like, I can crush on anything. And it's been a minute since I had a proper crush.

• 21:51Keke Palmer?

  Girl, I know, and you just want the feeling.

• 21:53Speaker 03

  I want the feeling, I wanna be, like, that wake up, look at your phone and be like, I tee hee hee hee. I wanna tee hee. When can I tee hee?

• 22:03Keke Palmer?

  Yes, and it's so funny, because I feel like, we're all having the same conversation. We're in, we're in a world where everybody's connected, we're all online, we're all somehow intertwined, but yet, there's no real connection.

• 22:14Speaker 03

  There's no real connection, because it requires vulnerability, it requires, like, the chance of failure. And people just want a sure thing, or people don't, are too impatient, and I also think too, I. Think there's this version of ourselves, hair done, nails, all that kind of stuff. And then there's me, no makeup, sweats, my glasses on, and I'm doing Legos.

• 22:37Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I bet it's so cute that you do Legos. I love that.

• 22:39Speaker 03

  I do a little Lego, girl.

• 22:40Keke Palmer?

  She's a genius.

• 22:41Speaker 03

  And she's trying. But it's just like, I need someone to be attracted to that version of me. And like, want that and not just want this, because this is...

• 22:50Keke Palmer?

  And how do you do with the perception? Because I have a hard time with that as well. Because people see me and they're always thinking, "Hinnygug and yah!" And it's like, I can get into that bag, but it's like, also like, it, you know, my confidence comes from me just saying, "This is all I got." You know? It's not because I think I'm perfect, or I've got it all going on. It's just me being like, "I'm working what I got." But it's interesting how sometimes that perception can leave people to think about what you want or who you are.

• 23:18Speaker 03

  Can I tell the truth and shame the devil?

• 23:19Keke Palmer?

  Girl, yes.

• 23:26Keke Palmer?

  Honey, I don't care what the pumpkin spice industry says. Summer ain't over just yet. And let me tell you, I had the vision of the perfect late summer getaway that would make earth, wind, and fire proud. I can already see it now. And I'm dancing in a spacious Airbnb living room, surrounded by my crew, belting out "Do You Remember?" Because trust me, this is a memory in the making. With all the back-to-school chaos, sometimes you need a breather. Last year, I booked a guest favorite for a quick family escape. We had bedrooms for days, a kitchen big enough for our chopped leftover edition competitions, and the kids could do their schoolwork without feeling like they were in detention. If you're looking for that last taste of summer or a cozy fall retreat, check out Airbnb Guest Favorites.

• 24:10Keke Palmer?

  I mean, seriously, these are the cream of the crop, y'all. Perfect for family trips or friend getaways. You get more space, privacy, and locations that'll make your Instagram followers green with envy. Whether you're chasing the last rays of summer or embracing the pumpkin everything, Airbnb has a spot for you.

• 24:30Keke Palmer?

  Baby, I just had the wildest ride with The Prophecy, Season 2 on Audible. And Kerry Washington, she's taking supernatural thriller to a whole new level. Dr. Virginia Edwards really thought she could finally breathe easy, but the universe said, "Not today." Just as she's setting in with her family, the power-hungry billionaire cult leader shows up threatening everything she's protected. On top of that, she's being hit with these intense visions, cryptic, otherworldly, and impossible to ignore. Now, she's racing against time with just one month to decode them before the world falls apart. And where do these visions lead her? Straight into the deep south on a relentless run. Giancarlo Esposito is locked in as the villain, and he's hot on her heels and coming with full force.

• 25:15Keke Palmer?

  But good thing Virginia's got her trust in Ally Moses, played by Dulé Hill, riding shotgun. He and Kerry Washington go way back to psych, but this time, their characters are trying to stop a plan that could change the world forever. The performances will grab you, and the sound design, it'll pull you so deep into Virginia's world, you'll be looking over your shoulder at every strange noise. Whether you caught the first season or you're diving in fresh, The Prophecy, Season 2 serves up thrills, chills, and some serious "what would I do?" moments. Ready to test your faith and face your fears? Listen to The Prophecy, Season 2, now on Audible. Head to audible.com/prophecy2 for your free trial.

• 25:58Keke Palmer?

  Trust me, this is one prophecy you want to hear.

• 26:03Speaker 03

  You exude an authenticity that is so potent that it requires anyone to be in your presence, that anyone that's in your presence needs to show up with that authenticity. And there's no fake about you. There's no this version, that version. And I think that when people are like, "That's that perception." Like you said, you could tap into that bag and be like, "Hey, girl, whatever." You know who you are and the people that will love you and surround you, like, they know that too. And I think that's also, the few times we've crossed paths, and I'm very, like, spiritual and so, like, your vibration, I was like, oh, I was like, she's someone who I, that I need in my orbit because you're so ten toes down.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  And I just know that, like, whoever you end up with is gonna be so worthy.

• 26:51Keke Palmer?

  Ah, God!

• 26:52Speaker 03

  It's gonna be so worthy.

• 26:54Keke Palmer?

  Yes!

• 26:54Speaker 03

  Honey.

• 26:55Keke Palmer?

  I feel like, I don't know what scene, what movie this is, I think it's Jill Scott.

• 26:58Speaker 03

  Yes! Oh! No, no, no.

• 27:03Keke Palmer?

  And Tyler, and I'm scared, and I don't get married.

• 27:06Speaker 03

  Oh, I see it for, girl.

• 27:09Keke Palmer?

  I need that.

• 27:10Speaker 03

  I see it. I'ma be there with my bloke.

• 27:13Keke Palmer?

  I'm your wedding, honey.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  Me and my bloke, we gonna figure it out.

• 27:16Keke Palmer?

  Oh, girl, I live, I live. Well, congratulations on your second Emmy nomination, girl, for White Lotus. I mean, what is this moment like? I mean, this is your second time around with White Lotus. You keep getting these acknowledgements. I mean, I know you don't probably do it for that, but it has to feel great.

• 27:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, it feels incredible, especially because it's my peers.

• 27:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 27:34Speaker 03

  And I think this time around, I wasn't expecting it, and I was so, like, caught off guard.

• 27:43Keke Palmer?

  Oh!

• 27:44Speaker 03

  I was so caught off guard, but I love doing work that, yeah, that fills me up and fills my cup up, but also audiences respond to, and also my peers see. It's all about being seen, right? And feeling seen by an industry that works against us in a lot of ways. And so, when it actually sees you, it's, it feels amazing.

• 28:05Keke Palmer?

  And I think it also is so great because we fell in love with you on Insecure with one type of character, and then we get to see the development of a totally different style of character. And not even like you're working against it, it's just she has such a different nuance and a temperature and pace.

• 28:17Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 28:18Keke Palmer?

  That's what I love as well about Belinda.

• 28:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was a joy to play her, and it also, I think, let the industry at large know that, like, I contain multitudes.

• 28:26Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 28:26Speaker 03

  I'm an actor. I can do it all. And so I think when you come onto the scene with a character like Kelly from Insecure, it's so much easier for those in, you know, executives and positions of power to be like, oh, she does one thing. Check.

• 28:38Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Speaker 03

  And so it was wonderful to have this character be like, no, no, no. Like, no, like, recognize that there's a fullness to what I can do. And, um, yeah, I'm excited for what's next, too.

• 28:47Keke Palmer?

  Yes. Now, you said in People Magazine that you had serious imposter syndrome on season three set, working with people that, you know, you've seen growing up from afar. But your co-star, Carrie Coon, called you the OG.

• 28:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 28:59Keke Palmer?

  So how did it feel from going how you felt in the beginning to now?

• 29:03Speaker 03

  Incredible. I think I went in, because I wasn't in season two, and then season three was so big from the onset. Yeah, I was just, I, I wanted to come in and like, low-key respect my elders. Like, they've been in the game a long time. Their resumes are insane, and I know I have a lot to learn. And so wanting to do right by that, but for her to be like, no, like, we saw you, you're the OG. And she, she gave me the best analogy. She was just like, doing a character you've done before is like putting on a wet bathing suit. It's like weird at first, you know it fits, and it'll feel better when you get in the water. And that's how it was, because once I was on set, I was like, oh, I know these people. I know this, I know this character. So it gave me more freedom after that.

• 29:43Keke Palmer?

  Now, I have to ask a personal question of where were y'all filming at, and how fun was it to be on them islands?

• 29:48Speaker 03

  Ooh, Thailand, girl.

• 29:49Keke Palmer?

  Woo!

• 29:50Speaker 03

  I was there for five and a half months.

• 29:51Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh!

• 29:52Speaker 03

  It was beautiful.

• 29:54Keke Palmer?

  Oh.

• 29:55Speaker 03

  It was hot as [BLEEP], but I did, I had never been before.

• 29:58Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 29:59Speaker 03

  And so it was beautiful to be there. And like, what I learned about Thailand, if you ever get a chance to go, or have you been?

• 30:03Keke Palmer?

  Never.

• 30:04Speaker 03

  Oh, girl. So Thailand has never been colonized.

• 30:08Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 30:09Speaker 03

  Never been colonized.

• 30:10Keke Palmer?

  Bless them, folks.

• 30:11Speaker 03

  Never been to war. So you walk in, I remember there's the P A on set named Fern, and it was like the first week or something. I was like, the vibes are immaculate. Like, tell me, what's going on? Something's, and she's like, yeah, no, we've never been colonized. And it hit me, I'm walking through America, and, which is in a constant state of trauma response.

• 30:31Keke Palmer?

  For sure.

• 30:33Speaker 03

  And now I'm in a place where that just, that's not there. It was like, my, my shoulders went down. I exhaled. There was no preconceived notions about-

• 30:40Keke Palmer?

  And I'm trying to figure out how they pulled that.

• 30:42Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 30:45Keke Palmer?

  Because I know y'all got resources.

• 30:46Speaker 03

  How did y'all do that?

• 30:47Keke Palmer?

  Ain't nobody come over there and rob your album.

• 30:49Speaker 03

  I know.

• 30:50Keke Palmer?

  That's a blessing.

• 30:51Speaker 03

  It's a blessing and you feel it when you walk around.

• 30:53Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh. I've got to go up over there.

• 30:55Speaker 03

  You've got to go up over there.

• 30:56Keke Palmer?

  Shout out to Thailand for being amazing. Now, we've got to talk about the SNL sketch that Lizzo did with Berlin.

• 31:01Speaker 03

  Oh, my god.

• 31:02Keke Palmer?

  How was that for you to see? I mean, it had to be. It was so iconic.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  It's iconic. I mean, it was out of my mind because when I was writing there, I was there for a year. It was so tricky being there, you know?

• 31:13Keke Palmer?

  I mean, working on SNL, I can only imagine the experience. I was on there just once and I saw the energy. I know you guys were just... It's like around the clock.

• 31:20Speaker 03

  It's around the clock. The stakes are high. It was my first big thing and so there's a lot of stress and so to go from that where I was writing sketches and hoping one of them would get on to having someone portray me, I was like, look at God. Like, it was crazy.

• 31:35Keke Palmer?

  It's so awesome. I love, I love when that happens. I feel like that's God like giving us a little tingle where he's like,

• 31:39Speaker 03

  100% like, I got you.

• 31:41Keke Palmer?

  Yes, exactly. We must talk about Risa Tisa because everybody in Hollywood wanted this story.

• 31:45Speaker 03

  I know.

• 31:46Keke Palmer?

  I mean, everybody. It took us all by storm on the internet. And we couldn't wait to figure out what else it could become. So, what was compelling about this story for you and how did you become a part of it?

• 31:57Speaker 03

  It was, it's related to Thailand. I was in Thailand shooting White Lotus and I kept getting tagged on TikTok in this story. And I didn't know what it was and it's 53 10-minute episodes. So, I didn't have time for that. I was working. So, I was just like, I don't know what this, I don't know what this is. Then it infiltrated my cousin's group chat. There's like 25 of us, my Philly cousins. And someone had made some key art, like doctored this and it's the cover. It was like, "Who the [bleep] did I marry?" And it had my face photoshopped with some other [bleep]. And I was just like, I was like, okay, enough. Enough is enough because they, they found it on the internet. They're like, oh, Tash, you doing this? Because they don't know how the industry works. They're just like, I saw this. Is this real? It's true.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  And I was like, okay. So, then I watched every video and it was the most radical act of vulnerability I had seen. She was to camera telling her story and my favorite parts were when she was just like, "This is not going to make me look good." And she'd tell the truth, shame the devil. She was like, "I'm telling my truth." And so, I FaceTimed with her when I was in Thailand and just told her how much I loved her and her story and that I'd love to be able to tell it. And... We weren't the biggest company, you know, Big Hatty Productions, my production company, where boutique were small and like, big names threw their hand in the ring. Like, it was competitive. And I remember my director of development, she's like, "Do we want to attach to one of those companies?" I was like, "No, let's ride solo and just trust."

• 33:22Keke Palmer?

  Girl.

• 33:24Speaker 03

  And we got the call, she's like, "Oh, she chose you." I was like, "Oh, but Shonda? Like, what are you talking about? Are she so hot?" And I was like, "What?" And so, I was so, like, blown away. And so, I've linked arms with this amazing showrunner named Marty Knoxen, and we're developing the story. We're gonna be taking out, pitching it in this next week, actually.

• 33:43Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 33:44Speaker 03

  And, yeah, I'm just excited to do right by her story. Because for me, I was like, "Oh, I don't want to make your, you know, I don't want trauma drama or pain porn about what hurt you. I want to know the story, the hero's journey of how you went from that to where you are now."

• 33:58Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 33:59Speaker 03

  And so, that's our entry point to really talk about what happened to her, but really be with her now on the B-side of it, to see how it's shaped her and molded her. And she still believes in love. And she's still, like, trying, taking big swings. She's still bold. She's still, you know, taking chances, and it's beautiful to see.

• 34:15Keke Palmer?

  I mean, this is a yes across the board that we all want to see. And we live for these moments, just like with Zola, when something happens on the line and people just do right by it. Shout out to Taylor Page, my girl.

• 34:25Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:26Keke Palmer?

  So, I'm very excited about this. I mean, going back to her saying yes to you, what do you think it was? Did you feel that you guys had a twin connection? Were you guys just clicking right off the bat?

• 34:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, I mean, she was a fan of my work, which is wonderful. But I think in talking to her, she knew I didn't want to take advantage of her, you know? And not to say anyone else was, but I was very open with her.

• 34:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, but I think what you're saying is, like, there's a real surface, just kind of like, headlining way to approach something like this.

• 34:49Speaker 03

  Correct, correct.

• 34:50Keke Palmer?

  As opposed to doing something that's really, you know, I love what they did with the Anna Delvey story.

• 34:53Speaker 03

  Yes, yes, yes.

• 34:54Keke Palmer?

  We, I thought, right off the bat, I'm thinking, "She's nuts." But when I watch the show, I'm like, "Maybe she could."

• 34:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 34:59Keke Palmer?

  You know, that's how it should feel.

• 35:00Speaker 03

  That's how it should feel.

• 35:01Keke Palmer?

  Because that's from that person's perspective.

• 35:02Speaker 03

  Correct. And I wanted to steep the story from her POV, and I also, I just remember being on the Zoom with her, and I didn't ask her, like, "Tell me about this, this." I was just like, "How's your head? How's your heart?" And she kind of sat back. And I was like, she's like, "What?" And I was like, "Yeah, like, yes, this, yes, yes, you know, risa tisa, yes, but how are you?" And we just sort of just like, connected, ten toes down, and she's so funny and so smart, and... Yeah, I'm just excited for the world to see it.

• 35:28Keke Palmer?

  Well, congratulations on that. I'm excited to see it, too.

• 35:31Speaker 03

  Thank you.

• 35:31Keke Palmer?

  I want to go back to How Did I Alone? Because it took eight years to make.

• 35:35Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 35:35Keke Palmer?

  Why do you think it got the green light it did once it did? The timing of all that?

• 35:40Speaker 03

  I mean, I fought for it. You know, I think for me, there were so many opportunities over the course of that eight years where I could have walked away, but I knew I wanted this story to see the light of day. And bringing it over with me, I was at HBO with it and I had gotten a deal at Disney. And I kind of made it a part of that package. I was just like, I want to be able to bring it. And I have such a great relationship with HBO and they don't usually let you sort of give it back.

• 36:06Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 36:06Speaker 03

  And they let me have it, which is a testament. Amy Grabitt over there is one of my dear friends and she's so wonderful. She's so wonderful and supportive and I just believed in it. And I think that at a certain point, you have nothing left to lose, you know? You have to bet on yourself. And so in meetings, I talked about it, pitched it. And yeah, we got the green light and being able to tell a story that's undeniable. I linked arms with another amazing showrunner, Vera Santa Maria. And we just made the story undeniable, being able to tell the story of an airport worker, you know, which is a demographic that we don't really highlight as being worthy of telling a story.

• 36:41Keke Palmer?

  But we see them all the time.

• 36:42Speaker 03

  We see them all the time. And so what, you know, I knew that people would want to see a story about someone whose job is to get you where you're going and we want to know where she's going, you know? And so it was beautiful to fight for that and to see it come to life.

• 36:57Keke Palmer?

  Well, I mean, it got a critical acclaim, even though it was canceled after a season. And we've seen that happen with shows that have become cult classics. I mean, I think about My So-Called Life.

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, Angela Chase!

• 37:06Keke Palmer?

  Girl!

• 37:07Speaker 03

  Oh, my God, Jordan Kinalano!

• 37:09Keke Palmer?

  Girl, okay! That's the Jared Leto I know.

• 37:12Speaker 03

  That's the Jared Leto I know.

• 37:14Keke Palmer?

  So it's like, we see this happen with these incredible shows, but it always hurts. So what was that experience like for you to know that whether it continued or not, the show was still valid and it did what it did?

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, it's disorienting, right? Because you've got critical acclaim, you've got a Spirit Award, you've got NAACP nominations, and then you get a cancellation. So my brain was trying to reconcile how all of this could be true. But what I understood at the end of the day... That cancellation has nothing to do with the quality of the show.

• 37:46Keke Palmer?

  Exactly.

• 37:46Speaker 03

  It has nothing to do with the work that I put out. There, there's a system at play that is doing what they need to do and I'm doing what I need to do. And I'm gonna keep my eyes on my own paper. But it did set me back because it was confusing, right? It was confusion. And for me, and again, we talked about, I love the question of why.

• 38:03Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 38:04Speaker 03

  They would never give me anything to satiate that. So I had to just let that go and say, you know what? There's circumstances and I, you know, things going on that I will never understand. But what I do know to be true is I'm proud of what I put out into the world. I am so proud, and people still see it. And they're just like, oh, I feel seen, you know? Thank you so much for writing this. You know, I saw your show and now I'm gonna book this trip. You know, I've never flown before, I'm gonna fly. And so it's gonna continue to have those results. And again, I always bring up My So-Called Life because that show was everything.

• 38:32Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  And I still talk about it. I still, it still impacts people. So I'm in good company, I'm proud of what I did. And it's just my, my first show, one of many.

• 38:44Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and I think it's so good, this, the reason why I want to highlight that because I really want people to understand that there are other things at play.

• 38:50Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 38:51Keke Palmer?

  We work, we're creatives in a corporate environment. At the end of the day, I know people don't see it that way, but it's the same as any other industry.

• 38:57Speaker 03

  That's right, we're commodities.

• 38:58Keke Palmer?

  We're commodities. And so we have to always remove that personal factor so that we can keep going.

• 39:03Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 39:03Keke Palmer?

  Because when we stop going, that's when we lose.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  That's when we lose.

• 39:06Keke Palmer?

  But when we keep on and we move forward, that's how we can continue to tell the stories that are important to us.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  It's my favorite thing to talk about. And sometimes like when I do interviews, they shy away from it. I was like, no, let's talk about it.

• 39:15Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 39:15Speaker 03

  Because I think it helps people understand that, you know, the no that you get from someone else, it's not a no for you to stop everything. It's just a redirection. So like, where else can you put your energies? What other stories are inside of you?

• 39:27Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, and this is a business.

• 39:28Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 39:28Keke Palmer?

  You know what I mean? Now, you talked about Risa Tisa, we talked about Mel, even Belinda, and they're all women that are trying to be seen. For you as an artist, how much of you relate to their experience? Or how those characters have come to you have been from your personal experiences?

• 39:49Keke Palmer?

  When I think about Church's Chicken, I'm taken back to those nights we'd try to figure out what we were picking up for dinner, and my dad would say, "Church's." I'm not gonna lie, we had a little tradition of our own. We'd always snag one of those fresh baked honey butter biscuits for the car ride home. Sorry, family, quality control purposes, you know. That's what makes Church's so special. It's fresh, hand-breaded chicken seasoned just right. I still do the jalapeno squeeze, just like my dad taught me. It's part of the experience now. And those honey butter biscuits I mentioned, baked from scratch, daily. And yes, they're worth the potential family drama. What I love is how Church's always comes through with portions that can feed everybody. Even after our little quality control moments, everything's made with real care, and you can taste it.

• 40:33Keke Palmer?

  At the end of the day, Church's Chicken is more than just a meal. It's family, it's tradition, it's home. Find your next meal and deal at churches.com.

• 40:44Speaker 03

  I mean, I relate to him deeply. I think that, growing up as a plus-size young girl, I never felt worthy of being center frame. And so many of the stories that I saw, those characters were always relegated to the sidelines. They were the best friend, they were helping someone else on their journey. And lots of therapy, like 20-plus years been in the game, understanding my worthiness and my responsibility to stand in my power as someone who is beautiful, plus-size, and worthy of being on screen. I know that journey for me was treacherous. And so for me, I am, everything I write, everything I do, everything I perform,

• 41:28Speaker 03

  that speaks to that, it's like a love letter to that unhealed version of myself. It's a love letter to those at home that are still not feeling worthy of being seen. And I think I'll always, you know, be drawn to stories that will subvert those expectations, that will center marginalized voices, because I think for me, that's... Those stories are so worthy and those stories are so much more interesting.

• 41:51Keke Palmer?

  Yep.

• 41:51Speaker 03

  Than what has been center frame historically. And so the characters, I do have this sort of, you know, common denominator of wanting to be seen and wanting to break through. And I think that scratches an itch for me because even still, after all of that, I still have moments where my unworthiness wants to creep up or, you know, feeling like, you know, even when your team reached out, they're like, oh, we want to do Kiki's podcast. I was like, me? That was my first response. Like, and I was just like, yes. I was like, okay, cool. You know, like, let me put on my real Spanx, you know, like, like, show up. Like, oh, you know?

• 42:24Keke Palmer?

  Girl, yeah.

• 42:25Speaker 03

  So it's just like, okay, and it's, it's, it's a constant exercise. Cause that's what I always say to people when I like talk to young, you know, young girls and mentor. I'm just like, none of this is like solved.

• 42:35Keke Palmer?

  No.

• 42:36Speaker 03

  None of it.

• 42:37Keke Palmer?

  You just quiet it better.

• 42:38Speaker 03

  You quiet it better.

• 42:39Keke Palmer?

  You hear it come up and you're like, oh, that's that.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  That's that. Yeah, let's put her aside.

• 42:43Keke Palmer?

  I'm fine as hell. Holler at your girl.

• 42:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's like, okay, let me, okay, the thought's happening. I don't have to give it energy.

• 42:49Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 42:49Speaker 03

  And that to me has been my growth and my experience. And so as long as I'll have the privilege of being able to storytell, I'll always favor those stories because of my experience.

• 43:01Keke Palmer?

  Uh, and I feel like with Kelly, like the reason why we all love that character so much, there's always an element, I think, with Issa's stuff. I don't know if it's just being millennials or pop culture, but there's an element of satire that really is elevated, intelligent, where it really points things on the nose. And with Kelly, it's like, you think you know Kelly, but each episode and each season, we're like, she's really not who we think she is. How much or how important was that for you and the, the whole team to continue to give us those layers and show the nuance of this quintessential character that you think you know?

• 43:33Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 43:34Keke Palmer?

  And who you think she is.

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Oh, that was so my goal.

• 43:37Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Speaker 03

  And I was really purposeful in the writers' room not to.

• 43:43Speaker 03

  Uh, push Kelly's stories or fight for them because I was there as a writer for the show. And I know that ultimately it's a love story between Issa and Molly. And Kelly's there to sort of like add that flavor, zest. So anytime we would work on a Kelly storyline, I'd go in measured because I didn't want to like, oh, I want to see this, but I would always make sure that I would run that through my truth. Which is like, I do not want to see her as a trophy stereotype. I want her to push expectations. She's going to be someone who is sex positive, someone who is smart. She's good with her money. She likes to have a good time. She likes to good drink. She also is at work on time, you know, like you can, she can be, uh, you know, she can tame multitudes. And so it was so much fun to play her because she's so not me.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  You know, like people think that's me and I'm just like nerdy as [BLEEP]. And like, you know, very quiet, sipping on like a little rosé at some place. And she's just like, she's the life of the party.

• 44:36Keke Palmer?

  She is.

• 44:36Speaker 03

  So it's so much fun to like bring her to life and let those surprises come out and subvert expectations.

• 44:42Keke Palmer?

  I mean, and she did just that in the last episode. She get, got pregnant, something she wasn't really trying to do. I mean, she surprises the group, you know. How was finding her ending, you know, and what, what you guys landed on for Kelly?

• 44:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, I struggled. If I'm being honest, I, I told Issa, I was like, really? I was like, pregnant? And because I'm, I'm childless by choice in real life and I love my niece and nephew. I love people who are having children. But I was just so, I was like, I wanted her to be a, an example for women who were choosing a different path.

• 45:16Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 45:17Speaker 03

  And so part of me, I was just like, I feel like, you know, she can find like a boo for life or whatever. But I, the non-traditional nature of her, I was like, I don't know if her being pregnant, like I can reconcile that with who I know her to be. And we did a lot of room discussions about it and I came on board ultimately because I knew that's what Issa wanted for the character. And so in my mind, I'm like, oh, well, Kelly would be a non-traditional parent. Do you know what I mean? And so I've found ways to, to have her still feel like the Kelly I knew in this new environment. You know what I mean? But at first, it took me by surprise. I was just like, really? I was like, okay. Because she makes jokes, there's, I forget what season.

• 45:59Speaker 03

  She makes a joke about going and getting abortion where she's just like, oh, if I wanted a kid, I would have kept it, is a line from the show.

• 46:05Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 46:05Speaker 03

  And so I was like, oh, maybe that tip, but yeah, she surprised me. She surprised me.

• 46:11Keke Palmer?

  Okay, I mean, you talked about, this was something, you talked about being neuro spicy. When did you realize that neurodivergence was a part of your identity? You know, and how has it shaped your creativity?

• 46:20Speaker 03

  Ooh, I had a sense for a long time that I saw the world differently. And I didn't have the language for it. I didn't know what it was. And this is truly recent. So last year, I was like, enough is enough. So I found a neuropsychologist. And I had been, I've been in therapy for like 20 years. So like, my therapist was just like, girl, you got ADHD. And I was like, I didn't have an official test or anything, but I wanted to know what all the spices were. So I went to a neuropsych, did an eight hour battery of tests, which is what they do when they're doing like an official diagnosis. And I went in just like, I want to learn more about the way my mind sees the world.

• 46:58Keke Palmer?

  Me too.

• 46:59Speaker 03

  Girl, I'll give you info. If you want to get this, it is so enlightening.

• 47:03Keke Palmer?

  Because there's a lot going on.

• 47:04Speaker 03

  There's a lot going on. One of the things that I learned outside of the fact that I have raging ADHD.

• 47:10Keke Palmer?

  Wow.

• 47:10Speaker 03

  Raging. It's wonderful to have that confirmation. She also said, like, there's this one test you take, right? There's like these weird symbols, like three of them. And then there's a line of like seven weird symbols. And you're timed and you have to find those three symbols in this line. And I go through the test and the psychologist, the neuropsych was just like, um, are you always this quick? And I was just like, uh-oh, did I? Because sometimes I can be fast and wrong and I didn't want to be that. She was like, no, you're fast and right, but are you always this quick? I was like, what do you mean? And so the test had like 12 pages in the book. She says, I've been doing this for 25 years. I've only graded the first three pages and you got to page seven. So I was just like, She's like, and so I, my brain moves so fast. Which makes sense why.

• 47:55Keke Palmer?

  So fast.

• 47:56Speaker 03

  So fast, which was why being a showrunner. I was in flow. Being like when, and she kept saying, she's just like, I bet for you, small tasks are hard because you need more weight on the bar. Because your brain likes that challenge. And so it wasn't just the diagnoses. It was an understanding of how my mind works.

• 48:15Keke Palmer?

  Oh, my gosh.

• 48:16Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:16Keke Palmer?

  That feels so freeing, the not knowing of ourselves.

• 48:19Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 48:19Keke Palmer?

  How we think and how we're the way we are. It really is empowering. I need that psych.

• 48:24Speaker 03

  Oh, I'll give it the neural psych.

• 48:25Keke Palmer?

  Neural psych, you get to hook me up.

• 48:27Speaker 03

  Yes, and the test, I think like it's relevatory because you can also, now that I have the language of how spicy my brain is, when I'm in environments, I'll say now, I move really fast, so if you need me to slow down, let me know.

• 48:39Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 48:39Speaker 03

  As opposed to just showing up and people like not knowing that they have permission to engage with me and call out the fact that I'm being spicy. Call it out, let's be spicy together, you know?

• 48:49Keke Palmer?

  Ah, yes, I live. Natasha, I've had so much fun with you, but I'm not letting you go without a game.

• 48:53Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I ain't leaving.

• 48:54Keke Palmer?

  Because I play a game with all my guests, and this one is called, I call that growth. Obviously. Inspired by you from Insecure. Now, here's how it works. I'm gonna read a bunch of scenarios, some real, some ridiculous, and some a little bit relatable, maybe too relatable. And Natasha and I are gonna decide if we call that growth.

• 49:14Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:14Keke Palmer?

  Gaslighting, either them or ourselves.

• 49:17Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:18Keke Palmer?

  Or if it's just grown woman behavior.

• 49:20Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:20Keke Palmer?

  Okay.

• 49:21Speaker 03

  Growth, gaslighting, or grown.

• 49:22Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 49:23Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 49:24Keke Palmer?

  Here's the first one. I told him I wasn't ready for a relationship, then got mad when he didn't act like my boyfriend.

• 49:31Speaker 03

  Oh, I'm gonna call that, uh, gaslighting yourself.

• 49:34Keke Palmer?

  Yeah.

• 49:35Speaker 03

  That's gaslighting.

• 49:36Keke Palmer?

  I feel like it's totally gaslighting yourself and a little bit of gaslighting them. Because, girl, why you mad?

• 49:40Speaker 03

  Why you mad? You say you didn't want it, when you say what you want.

• 49:44Keke Palmer?

  Okay, I turned down the brand deal because they offered exposure instead of a check.

• 49:49Speaker 03

  Mmm, that's wrong. Get your bag, honey.

• 49:53Keke Palmer?

  Because if you know that right at this point in time, you need the check more than you need the exposure,

• 49:57Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 49:58Keke Palmer?

  Then you've made a decision based off of your needs.

• 50:00Speaker 03

  That's right, your needs made the decision.

• 50:01Keke Palmer?

  Okay, I cut off a friend I've known since college because we simply outgrew each other and I'm at peace with that.

• 50:08Speaker 03

  Growth.

• 50:09Keke Palmer?

  Growth. I got a couple of them. Sayonara.

• 50:13Speaker 03

  Sayonara.

• 50:14Keke Palmer?

  Hasta la vista, baby.

• 50:15Speaker 03

  Listen, I've cut off many a friend and you, you, you have to put those boundaries down and, and say what you need. And sometimes they were good for a time.

• 50:25Keke Palmer?

  That's right.

• 50:26Speaker 03

  And you have to say thank you. Marie Kondo, that friend. Thank you, let it go.

• 50:30Keke Palmer?

  I love Marie. She ain't got nothing in her house.

• 50:33Speaker 03

  She ain't got nothing.

• 50:36Keke Palmer?

  She ain't got nothing. That's crazy, but she probably feel free.

• 50:40Speaker 03

  Free.

• 50:40Keke Palmer?

  Um, okay, I said I was protecting my peace, but really I was just avoiding accountability.

• 50:46Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 50:48Keke Palmer?

  I really, I don't like them people.

• 50:51Speaker 03

  I don't like them.

• 50:52Keke Palmer?

  That's called gaslighting.

• 50:54Speaker 03

  That is called gaslighting.

• 50:56Keke Palmer?

  How are you so damn mean? What peace are you protecting?

• 50:58Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 50:59Keke Palmer?

  Because peaceful people don't act like that, boo.

• 51:00Speaker 03

  That's right. There's a difference between boundaries. When you're just like, you know, that's enough. And then there's this like, oh no, I don't want anyone to hold me accountable.

• 51:08Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I don't want to talk about it, so you're done.

• 51:10Speaker 03

  You're done.

• 51:11Keke Palmer?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm too mature for this. You too mature to be found out.

• 51:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, you got your fingers in your ears. Take them out and listen, listen. Yeah, that is.

• 51:20Keke Palmer?

  Now that's a read, you got your fingers in your ears.

• 51:22Speaker 03

  You got your fingers in your ears.

• 51:23Keke Palmer?

  Take them out.

• 51:24Speaker 03

  Take them out.

• 51:25Keke Palmer?

  Listen.

• 51:26Speaker 03

  Gaslight.

• 51:27Keke Palmer?

  So she told her friend she was over the drama, but still recapped the entire situation in perfect chronological order with timestamps, screenshots and color-coded receipts.

• 51:37Speaker 03

  Mmm, that's wrong. You keeping your receipts organized. Ain't nothing wrong with that.

• 51:42Keke Palmer?

  I have a folder for all y'all.

• 51:43Speaker 03

  Listen, Libras are petty as [BLEEP].

• 51:45Keke Palmer?

  Girl.

• 51:45Speaker 03

  I got, I got, I got slow burn receipts, stuff that I ain't, I ain't even gonna bring out until I know when it, when the, when the time comes.

• 51:52Keke Palmer?

  When I tell you I'll keep a conversation from five years ago.

• 51:56Speaker 03

  Listen.

• 51:56Keke Palmer?

  Play with me if you want to.

• 51:57Speaker 03

  Play with me if you want to.

• 51:58Keke Palmer?

  And I got the screenshot saved on the Dropbox.

• 52:00Speaker 03

  PowerPoint, you got a screen, pull it down.

• 52:02Keke Palmer?

  Period.

• 52:03Speaker 03

  Mmm.

• 52:03Keke Palmer?

  Girl, okay. I said I was over him, but I still checked the astrology compatibility for our birth charts again. Now, you know that's gaslighting yourself.

• 52:12Speaker 03

  That's gaslighting yourself.

• 52:13Keke Palmer?

  He's not the one, no matter how much the stars align.

• 52:15Speaker 03

  That's right. I don't care what his rising is.

• 52:18Keke Palmer?

  And that's actually made me distrust astrology on so many occasions because they told me you was my Barack.

• 52:23Speaker 03

  I mean.

• 52:25Keke Palmer?

  And you just turned out to be...

• 52:27Speaker 03

  Mm, a rock. Listen. Don't want it.

• 52:32Keke Palmer?

  Okay, last one. Let me see. I want to be a good one. I want to put a good one. Okay. I never told her I was hurt. I just started matching her energy.

• 52:44Speaker 03

  Mm.

• 52:47Speaker 03

  I, ooh.

• 52:48Keke Palmer?

  Isn't it tricky?

• 52:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, because it's not grown to not say what you're, you know, like, it's not grown. But it's educational when you just be matching energy.

• 52:58Keke Palmer?

  Yes.

• 52:58Speaker 03

  You know what I'm saying?

• 52:59Keke Palmer?

  So I do feel like it's kind of in that growthy space.

• 53:01Speaker 03

  It's that growthy space where it's just like, you still have more to grow because you need to say what you mean and mean what you say. But also, you can hold up a mirror to some people. I hold up a mirror sometimes where I'm just like...

• 53:12Keke Palmer?

  And they're like acting like they seen Medusa.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  Yes, and I'm like, no, that's you.

• 53:15Keke Palmer?

  That's you, boo.

• 53:16Speaker 03

  I'm giving you you. You don't like it, that's a you problem.

• 53:20Keke Palmer?

  Natasha, thank you so much for coming to the show. You're absolutely incredible.

• 53:23Speaker 03

  Thank you for having me.

• 53:24Keke Palmer?

  And I'm waiting for us, write me into something, girl, so we can lay out the town out.

• 53:28Speaker 03

  When?

• 53:29Keke Palmer?

  Girl, we are a match.

• 53:30Speaker 03

  I know. I love you so much.

• 53:32Keke Palmer?

  I love you. You're awesome.

• 53:37Keke Palmer?

  Y'all, Natasha Rothwell is the moment and the multi-hyphenate movement. From cracking us up as Kelly to making us rethink everything as Belinda, she's proof that funny black women are layered, brilliant, and running the room. Thank you, Natasha, for showing up with honesty, power, and all the spice. I'm taking notes, and I know y'all are too. Until next time, baby, this is Kiki Poma.

• 54:12Keke Palmer?

  Baby, this is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post-producer. Our producers are Lauren Hampton and Molly Nester. Hillary Esti McLaughlin is our executive producer. Production services provided by Evolution Media. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonte. Senior managing producer is Nick Ryan. And our executive producers are Emily Feldbrake, Aaron O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louie.

• 54:49Speaker 04

  There are books that change how you see the world. And there are books that change how you see yourself. In a new podcast series, A Great Book with Barack Obama, President Obama sits down with a series of surprising and sharp guests to explore six books that have shaped his life and perspective on the world. From Song of Solomon and The Fire Next Time, to All the Pretty Horses and Gilead, the president is joined by guests like Tom Hanks and Ta-Nehisi Coates to reflect on how these timeless stories shaped his thinking on everything from fatherhood to leadership. And discover together what they tell us about the world we live in and the world we want to create.

• 55:33Speaker 04

  Audible subscribers can listen to all episodes of A Great Book with Barack Obama ad-free right now. Plus, access each audiobook discussed in the series. Download the Audible app today.

• 55:49Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm Kenyon Perez.

• 55:50Speaker 06

  And I'm Malcolm Gladwell. We're back for season two of our Audible original podcast, The Unusual Suspects.

• 55:57Speaker 05

  We'll sit down with extraordinary guests from the worlds of art, film, literature, comedy, and wellness to hear from their unexpected stories of success.

• 56:04Speaker 06

  And who do we have this season? Well, we'll talk with Grammy-winning artist Anderson Paak, athlete Richard Roll, portrait artist Amy Sherald, Oscar-winning director Ron Howard, legendary writer David Sedaris, and many more. These conversations are more intimate than last season, wouldn't you say?

• 56:20Speaker 05

  I would. Listen to season one of The Unusual Suspects wherever you get your podcasts and sign up for a free trial Audible to listen to season two in the Audible app or by subscribing to Apple Podcasts.