Matt Pinfield & Allison Hagendorf | The Magnificent Others with Billy Corgan

Billy Corgan welcomes legendary MTV host Matt Pinfield and music journalist /MTV alum Allison Hagendorf to revisit the MTV era — when music videos launched careers, broke new artists, and changed rock culture forever. Matt shares behind-the-scenes stories from the network's most influential years, Allison reflects on her journey from devoted fan to one of rock's most trusted voices, and Billy reveals how MTV helped launch the Smashing Pumpkins, the incredible story behind the lost 1979 video footage, and the on-air comment about Chicago bands that earned him years of hate mail. Along the way, they debate hair metal versus grunge, the cultural power of music videos, how artists broke through before algorithms, and why Billy believes rock—and Gen X—are finally ready for their next chapter. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  That's the thing about the three of us, we're always still fans.

• 0:03Speaker 01

  I was literally, you know, you're like, we would watch like 40 videos a week. I was psycho. I was listening, I'm not exaggerating, to thousands of songs a week.

• 0:14Speaker 00

  Walk me inside MTV in those years.

• 0:16Speaker 01

  It felt like it was a world made for me.

• 0:21Speaker 00

  That was a massive period of change and it affected our lives in just an unbelievable way. It was influencing culture. It was influencing politics. I mean, it had. It was so important back then.

• 0:32Speaker 01

  It just felt like you were in the inside of something very special.

• 0:39Billy Corgan?

  Matt Pinfield.

• 0:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:40Billy Corgan?

  Allison Hagendorf, thank you very much for being on my podcast. I feel like I should be in your world, not in my world.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  I was gonna say, this feels so good actually having us sitting here.

• 0:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, you're gonna get grilled, okay?

• 0:50Speaker 01

  Oh, okay.

• 0:51Billy Corgan?

  We're really gonna put you to the marks here. So let's, by way of introduction, because I think it helps with the conversation we're gonna have, so we'll start with you.

• 0:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 0:59Billy Corgan?

  You've been an on-air DJ.

• 1:01Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:03Billy Corgan?

  Club DJ.

• 1:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04Billy Corgan?

  Program director for radio stations.

• 1:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08Billy Corgan?

  DJ.

• 1:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11Billy Corgan?

  Of course, 120 Minutes, you're very important to our world in that way.

• 1:15Speaker 01

  Best.

• 1:16Billy Corgan?

  I think I read you've done over 100 MTV specials, which.

• 1:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, it's, you know, I was also, when I got hired there, I filled in first, but then I was one of the people who programmed the music. So I was manager of music programming, who I worked with your friend Amy Finnerty very closely, so that.

• 1:30Billy Corgan?

  I just saw Amy Finnerty the other night at Melissa Offdamar's book event here in Los Angeles.

• 1:35Speaker 00

  Oh, that's, that's awesome. I mean, it's great to see Melissa.

• 1:38Billy Corgan?

  A&R for Columbia Records.

• 1:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:41Billy Corgan?

  Also worked for VH1, HDNet, MySpace.

• 1:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:45Billy Corgan?

  Sirius, Lithium, of course, KOS, KCSN, and what's your show now again?

• 1:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, KCSN, that's, I'm on KCSN, which is, you know, the public station at Ringo and people like that, you know? And Tom Hanks and Joe Walsh, they all kind of are big supporters of. So it's here in Los Angeles, it's called the SoCal Sound. So I have a lot of freedom there to play a lot of, a lot of things. I play a lot of. New stuff too, but a lot of freedom. So it's I get to load in your old B sides, which is so much and play like yeah, ugly. Like you're doing old school free form DJ. I'm gonna sort of take Yeah, there's yeah, I have so much freedom. So I love that. And I also have a syndicated show called Flashback, which is through Westwood One, which is a classic rock history show. I've been doing for 15 years. And so that's a weekend thing that's on terrestrial in different markets all over the

• 2:34Speaker 00

  country. And then, you know, now I do KLS one day a week. So it's like, I just keep busy. I'm very grateful to be doing that stuff. Yes, you know, and I'll just say it was like, you know, what I love about that, you know, the public station is, you know, like, you know, obviously, everybody knows about some of the defunding of, you know, public media. And so, you know, it's great that we have major supporters with and people like Tom Hanks and his wife, and of course, Ringo and Joe Walsh, who are brother, brother in laws, right? But Ringo did a thing on our last pledge drive where he matched every dollar that people donated on or like that people pledge on my show on the last day of the pledge, which was a very kind thing. Cause it's

• 3:16Speaker 00

  now I've had a relationship with Ringo for quite a few years. So it's like, just, it's a beautiful thing. So anyway, so yeah, keep on going. And you know, that's it.

• 3:27Billy Corgan?

  And then Allison, A and R for Sony, BMG, Columbia Epic, stop me if I'm wrong, Fuse, of course, the Fuse, which at one point was called the, you know, the competitor of it was hoped it was going to be the competitor of MTV. You host Times Square, New York, New Year's Eve, New York, New York, New Year's Eve, live announcer for MTV Video and Movie Awards, X Games for ABC and ESPN, Global Head of Rock Spotify, and also on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominating Committee, and of course, the Alison Hagendorf Show, which I've been a guest on. Did I miss anything?

• 4:03Speaker 01

  I mean, that's, that's pretty great. I love that the beginning of my career revolves around this man.

• 4:08Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's also why I wanted to put you together because.

• 4:12Speaker 01

  Do you know the story of how we connected?

• 4:14Billy Corgan?

  Please do, please. I think I assume it, but please tell me.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  I grew up watching MTV, seeing Matt Pinfield hosting 120 Minutes, which was like my everything. And I literally wanted to be Matt. I thought Matt was the absolute coolest, smartest, the trust that he had with artists, the rapport that he-

• 4:35Billy Corgan?

  By the way, still has with artists.

• 4:37Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 4:38Billy Corgan?

  Because you learn real quick in the biz, who you can tell secrets to and they're gonna keep them. And who you can be friends with and everybody can kind of, they can still do their day jobs, but like, the mix of church and state is held very sacredly. And Matt's one of those people.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  Trust is-

• 4:55Billy Corgan?

  You too, but-

• 4:56Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 4:56Billy Corgan?

  But, but, but speaking of the time you were in, that, you know, who, who we could trust over there in the Borg at MTV, you know, was, was, was important to us, yeah.

• 5:06Speaker 01

  And I just, I revered Matt as a fan. And I actually went to school to be a doctor. I, I graduated pre-med. But while I was at school, I became the Sony College Rep because I just loved music. And I won Rep of the Year. So my reward for winning this was a job offer at both Columbia and Epic Records. And I knew that Matt Pinfield worked at Columbia Records. Now, the job offer was to do nothing with Matt. It was an assistant in the jazz department.

• 5:37Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 5:37Speaker 01

  And I was like, I'll take it. I will take it. I will find Matt. And literally for about three to four months, I pitched myself to HR and Matt. And I said, I'll still do this, but let me also assist Matt. And then finally, I became Matt Pinfield's assistant and then I was Matt Pinfield's right hand and the rest is history.

• 5:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's incredible.

• 5:59Speaker 01

  And he, and Matt is not only my mentor. But he is my best friend and it's just this beautiful, I just feel honored to be with Matt all the time.

• 6:09Billy Corgan?

  You know, as you know, I've been pitching that you two should have some kind of show. No, because I think both you carry the mark of credibility that we need in the rock and alternative sphere. And people trust you. And just like the classic DJ, you got to trust that when the DJ says, hey, listen to this record, check out this band. It does carry weight. The record business seems to have kind of moved past that, but I think they've left a lot of money on the table by looking past what people like you bring to the table. Certainly the artists understand. And I think that's why we have these types of relationships, you know? Because it really is, can you help us translate what we're trying to get to the world? It's not just sheer capitalism.

• 6:49Billy Corgan?

  It's like, can somebody out there understand that it is sometimes, it isn't always about whether you've got a high charting record. It's about credibility. It's about what your band represents in the culture. And sometimes it takes a street feel to understand the difference between, you know, take the nineties. The nineties highway is littered with bands that in many ways were bigger than the Smashing Pumpkins at any given point that are completely forgotten. So it takes people like yourselves to go, okay, yes, this band's having a moment and yes, we're going to cover that. But we know who the real bands in the game are.

• 7:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 7:24Billy Corgan?

  That's a self-serving comment, please.

• 7:26Speaker 00

  No, but it's true, but it's, it is a beautiful thing though. And that's one of the things that was, I was very grateful for those moments, even, you know, like where, you know, at the radio station, a program in Jersey, HWHCG, where I'd worked part-time and then became music director, then program director. And that's kind of how the industry became familiar with me. And I think it was one of those things where they were like, oh my God, this guy's looking for reasons to play bands, not not to play them. Like the difference was that I was always trying to champion and I'm sure it also was the same way. She did it at Spotify. And you know, but it's like where you just want to see people succeed and you want to help them, especially if their music touches you or, but you also understand

• 8:11Speaker 00

  there's an audience out there that cares. And people love music. It's just such a part of their lives.

• 8:17Billy Corgan?

  Well, it's a shocking fact that. Of course, less so now because the music business has changed. But back in the day, you would meet people at music. You would meet people at the labels that didn't care about music.

• 8:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:28Billy Corgan?

  And you think, how do you work in the music business and not care about music? It was the strangest thing. They were talking about it as if they were selling, I don't know, air conditioning units or cookies or something. There was no passion.

• 8:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 8:42Billy Corgan?

  And, you know, the famous word, product.

• 8:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:44Billy Corgan?

  It was always like, ugh, product.

• 8:46Speaker 01

  Right.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  I was hating that word. When it was associated with music.

• 8:50Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It always felt so weird. Like you put your whole heart into something and it's a product.

• 8:55Speaker 01

  And we feel that heart too, because we love the culture.

• 8:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 9:00Speaker 01

  We love the artists and we love the audience. Cause we are the audience.

• 9:04Speaker 00

  Yes, we are.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  So we love.

• 9:06Speaker 00

  And I think that's so important, because I think that's the thing about the three of us. We're always still fans. Like, I am a fan through and through. I mean, music has gotten me through everything. Like, you know, I mean, I think of everything. You know, we just think about, you know, the craziness in life besides, you know, like, you know, all my recovery stuff and, you know, and sobriety. And, but also an aneurysm when I'm 15 years old, you know, like I felt. And that's when, you know, you talk about alienation as a teenager. And when I had to have, like, what looked like train tracks across my head and there's still a scar. You can see what I had to cut into my head at 15 years old. Can you imagine that feeling of alienation that I felt was?

• 9:51Billy Corgan?

  Alternative music is there waiting for you and you're alienation.

• 9:56Billy Corgan?

  We've got just what you need.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, so it was so it was beautiful that, you know, getting through that, getting through, you know, getting hit by a car, a stroke, all the other stuff. It's just, music's been there through everything, heartbreak, you know. But it's just.

• 10:10Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 10:10Speaker 00

  Every, everything. So it's a beautiful thing. I feel very, very grateful.

• 10:14Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it's maybe worth saying to the people listening that.

• 10:19Billy Corgan?

  It is an industry, as Ken Berry, the former head of Virgin Rex told me, it's called the music business for a reason.

• 10:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:27Billy Corgan?

  But there is a grace there that you can find the balance where the right artist can find the right opportunities. And hopefully, if in the best situation, the pressure and the excitement of what's happening, in many cases, creates the atmosphere for artists to make great music. In essence, the opportunity exists, and then the artist steps up into the space and creates great music.

• 10:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 10:50Billy Corgan?

  At least that's the way I view it. And I think that has a lot to do with why rock has struggled, I think, over the last 20 years is because the lack of pressure, well, then you end up making music for indie critics in their basement. You no longer trying to reach the mainframe. The fact that rock is not represented commonly in the in the common culture is part of the reason I think that there haven't been those Sergeant Pepper moments along the ways over the last 20 years. I'm sure somebody would beg to differ. But if you talk to most people on the street, they could name check one rock album in the last 20 years that they would cite as a cultural milestone moment. And yet you go through every other decade before that and you could rattle off off the top of your head without even trying.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's why it's even more exciting right in this moment, how much rock and alternative is thriving.

• 11:35Billy Corgan?

  We're gonna get.

• 11:36Speaker 01

  Am I jumping ahead?

• 11:37Billy Corgan?

  No, no, don't hijack my show. We're gonna get to that. No, really, that's that's the whole point of it. So let's start here somewhat dramatically. Okay, you know, I'm gonna frame it up this way, and I'm gonna give you two bookend ideas, and then we can play in this in the space. And this is really why I wanted to talk to you. Okay, over here, you have the death of MTV, right?

• 11:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 11:57Billy Corgan?

  MTV being the single greatest driver for rock music over the last, well, not the last 30 years, but like, let's say it hasn't had much of an influence for 15 to 20. But in the period that we sort of came of age, it was the single greatest driver engine for for like, there wouldn't have been Nirvana, Nevermind, the way we now understand it to be if it wasn't for MTV. There wouldn't have been Siamese Dream. There's just no way. It took it to levels that was in many ways unprecedented.

• 12:23Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:24Billy Corgan?

  And it was alternative, which is makes it even crazier.

• 12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:27Billy Corgan?

  In fact, I had an interview recently with Pat Boone, who's 91.

• 12:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:32Billy Corgan?

  And he had taken his time to research some of my music in anticipation for the interview. And he couldn't understand kind of the disassociative alienation aspects in the music. And he was like, why would you make music like that? He wasn't being accusatory, he was curious. And I said, we made music that was pretty much for our tribe. And then we found ourselves in a situation where that music became popular.

• 12:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 12:58Billy Corgan?

  Which was, you know, it wasn't voiced for, you know, you're not trying to get on TV because there was no TV to get on. If you were lucky, you're on 120 Minutes.

• 13:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:06Billy Corgan?

  So, okay, so over here, we have the death of MTV. Let's just, it's treated as a symbolic idea.

• 13:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 13:11Billy Corgan?

  Obviously, there's still an MTV. And then on the other side, and I find this shocking, is the decline of the video as a medium of marketing. Because now with YouTube and other portals, you would think that the video as a, as a artistic expression would be thriving. And yet its value in the culture is, compared to say 30 years ago, is minimal. So can you play between those two ideas if you want to jump in on that?

• 13:40Speaker 01

  Well, I can say, well, I think, you know, it used to be that, you know, the network would tell you what matters. And now the audience decides who they trust, and that's what matters.

• 13:54Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 13:54Speaker 01

  So that shift has just happened, but as far as the music video itself, it was the only way to really get to see an artist's expression.

• 14:02Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  Now it's just one of a million ways.

• 14:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay, that's a, that's a valid point, yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  I'd also argue, though, the music videos still are important, especially in rock and alternative. I think they really are.

• 14:14Billy Corgan?

  But, but not to argue, but it seems like there were times where it was, it had a cultural leading edge to it.

• 14:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:20Billy Corgan?

  And now it feels like it's just in a sea of information.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  I mean, I think that you could really, you could put mile markers throughout those MTV years on, as you saw certain things shifting. Obviously, the second British invasion that happened early on because of the lack of American videos. And then, you know, other than ZZ Top and Tom Petty and people like that, that were like, really embraced it from minute one. It was, you know, one of those situations. I think, you know, people, they make videos still, I, but I, it's, I, that's the difference. It's been, without that cultural. Platform where it was something where people went and as you said, cause you know, I'll get people, I'll meet people over the country who talk about like literally and it's every day.

• 15:07Speaker 00

  Who, you know, talk about their experience and how much MTV or a hundred twenty minutes in the shows had to do with their. You know what really shaped their musical taste and it's like, it's amazing. The range of people and then I, like I'd be in Brazil or somewhere where. You know, they would say to me, I watched you on TV, you know, when I was, you know, and it's pretty incredible. Cause I didn't even realize it's time to reach. I mean, we had no idea that MTV, we knew it was international, but not just. How international it was, you know, cause you're living here and working out there, but when it comes to the video side of things, I think. It's because the budgets aren't even close to what they were back in those days, but, but you're right about it. But your earliest videos, Billy, I'm sure the budgets weren't, weren't.

• 15:50Billy Corgan?

  No, they were, they were paltry, right? But I, you know, sometimes people will say to me, I wish you still made videos the way you used to make them. And I go, yeah, if you want to give me half a million dollars.

• 15:58Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 15:59Billy Corgan?

  I'm happy to make a video that you'll enjoy, you know?

• 16:02Speaker 00

  It was a craft services table would be like, you know, that'd be the budget for like five videos, right? You know, I mean, like, and some of these things, you remember how?

• 16:09Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:10Speaker 00

  But there are things that people, obviously the videos that were made, you know, like whether it's nineteen seventy five, I'm just using these examples. Or even, you know, today, there are certain things that are so iconic that people.

• 16:23Speaker 01

  The video we did together with you and Youngblood, that's an icon, the zombie video.

• 16:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 16:28Speaker 01

  I mean, that is iconic and that, that is so important.

• 16:31Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying is, I'm talking about, let's call it if, if, if there was a peak point and I don't know what year it was of MTV. You know, where the, where the music business and MTV were in lockstep together.

• 16:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 16:43Billy Corgan?

  As this kind of crazy marketing machine, it was influencing culture, it was influencing politics. I mean, it had.

• 16:49Speaker 00

  It was so important back then.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Oh, it was everything.

• 16:51Billy Corgan?

  So for you, what would be peak MTV year?

• 16:54Speaker 00

  Well, I think the peak MTV years are probably from like, I mean, the. My guess would be like, I mean, there's a period from like late eighties, like all the way through like.

• 17:06Billy Corgan?

  But pick, let's just pick one year just for fun.

• 17:10Speaker 00

  Well, I mean, I think it's really interesting. I kind of have to pick, I know it's, you know, ninety one and like ninety, I think there was a really interesting, obviously it was, there's a major shift there.

• 17:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Speaker 00

  But it had been influential for a while and it's. It used to actually drive some of the cultural changes. As you know, we talked about the politics, the rock, the vote, you know, we think of things like that. We think of the fact that, you know, when, when everything happened with Nirvana, it just like all of a sudden, it was next generation.

• 17:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, maybe that's what it is. It's that maybe it was Nirvana's moment that told the world, this thing's become so powerful. You can take something that's absolutely counterculture.

• 17:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 17:53Billy Corgan?

  And center it and the whole world goes, oh, okay.

• 17:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 17:56Speaker 01

  I was gonna say like 94, 95 because, you know, I will say that of, we all know this, that Smells Like Teen Spirit changed everything.

• 18:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 01

  And also shifted what kind of videos we saw on MTV from the hair metal to grunge. By the second albums by In Utero and, and Melancholy was not your second album, but you guys were, grunge was already established. It was already mainstream.

• 18:20Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, and that was, that was business. Yeah.

• 18:21Speaker 01

  Right. Now it was mainstream pop culture.

• 18:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 18:24Speaker 01

  And that's when MTV really became it. Cause it started with just being videos. Like in the late eighties and you have, you know, Duran Duran and all of that, you know, you know, amazing, amazing videos, but then it became culture, not just music videos. And then it expanded to like House of Style. And then there was like MTV Sports. And then there, then it really became a lifestyle destination in addition to just showing music videos. I'd say like early, mid nineties.

• 18:50Billy Corgan?

  Just to give some context of how important MTV was in, in those years, you're talking like 94, 95.

• 18:58Billy Corgan?

  The first video we made for MTV, the focus was always MTV.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:04Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 19:04Billy Corgan?

  And everything came second, including international markets. It's like, you gotta get it on MTV. And everything came second.

• 19:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:09Billy Corgan?

  And in fact, they would even say, if you get on MTV, the radio stations will pick up on it.

• 19:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:13Billy Corgan?

  So the priority was MTV down.

• 19:15Speaker 00

  It would, it was like that because that was definitely, it would actually force, you know, radio programmers to look at an artist they might otherwise ignore.

• 19:24Billy Corgan?

  Sure. So, okay. So Bullet with Butterfly Wings, we probably spent like 300. Um, 1979 would have been about 250, maybe more because of the famous lost tapes incident.

• 19:34Speaker 00

  That, I remember when that, I remember.

• 19:36Billy Corgan?

  I remember it well, too.

• 19:39Speaker 00

  Talking to you shortly after that. That was just a.

• 19:41Billy Corgan?

  Well, the.

• 19:42Speaker 01

  Was it really on the roof of the car?

• 19:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:44Billy Corgan?

  So what happened was they they gave.

• 19:46Speaker 00

  That's the greatest.

• 19:47Billy Corgan?

  We shot this, we shot, we were, we were up somewhere where there, you know, there was still earthquake damaged stuff from the, from the big earthquake, was it 91, whatever.

• 19:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:56Billy Corgan?

  And so we went into a neighborhood where the house was cracked in the middle. So it was a perfectly nice house, but it was cracked, but we could shoot a video in there for one day. So we went in there and shot the party scenes where the kids are, and we're playing in the party. And then we got on a plane and flew to New York for like a gig at like the Academy or something.

• 20:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:14Billy Corgan?

  It was four, four sold out shows type of thing. And, and we came off stage after one of the shows and Jonathan and Valerie, the video directors, were in our dressing room.

• 20:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:25Billy Corgan?

  And it was one of those moments where we thought, if it was a relative, you'd think somebody died.

• 20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:31Speaker 01

  Weird energy.

• 20:31Billy Corgan?

  And the look on their face was like, and you were like, uh oh, what happened? And they said, literally, they gave the tapes of the whole party scene to a staffer. They put them on the car.

• 20:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 20:41Billy Corgan?

  And they drove down the road and they had done searches and they couldn't find them anywhere. They had, they, they even were doing things like, they were doing Spanish speaking ads, hoping anybody.

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Oh my god.

• 20:51Billy Corgan?

  In the community, because it was sort of a bit rural, would find the tapes, offering a reward. And the tapes have never surfaced.

• 20:56Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 20:57Speaker 01

  That is.

• 20:58Billy Corgan?

  It'd be funny if somebody found them or had, so looked in a closet, went in, they had the, the secret lost 1979 tapes.

• 21:03Speaker 01

  Forensics.

• 21:04Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And then, and then, and then, uh, and then we had to fly back and shoot the exact same scene again with the exact same people.

• 21:11Speaker 00

  Can we talk about that? I, I just, oh my God, it sounds like I'm interviewing.

• 21:14Billy Corgan?

  We can talk about whatever you want.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  But Valerie, I mean, I love what they did, obviously, the work they did with the pumpkins. And then I so love Little Miss Sunshine. I just thought they were like, you know.

• 21:26Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. One of the nicest compliments I ever got is they called me when they got the movie and they said, we got this movie because of you.

• 21:32Speaker 00

  How great is that?

• 21:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. I mean, talk about touched.

• 21:35Speaker 00

  That's a beautiful thing, right?

• 21:36Billy Corgan?

  They said, literally, our work with you is the reason we got this movie.

• 21:39Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 21:40Speaker 00

  That's a.

• 21:40Billy Corgan?

  Now, they might've been just being nice and maybe there's some truth I don't know about.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  I'm sure that they said that because it's true.

• 21:45Billy Corgan?

  Beautiful people, really beautiful people. And just to finish the, the trope here, I think we spent $4.75 on Tonight Tonight.

• 21:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 21:53Billy Corgan?

  So imagine, just in those three videos, probably about a million dollars a video spent.

• 21:57Speaker 00

  That's how much important it was.

• 21:59Billy Corgan?

  It was, there was no other, everything came second.

• 22:02Speaker 01

  And I will tell you that it's withstood the test of time because in all of the content I do, I do my Allison Unchained series, just unveiling the stories behind the songs that shaped us. And I really spend a lot of time in the music videos. And I will tell you that this gorgeous community that we are building, simply about me talking about, in like an infotainment sort of way, how it connects and how these music videos have become part of us. They are part of our imprinting years, our DNA, and they mean just as much as the song.

• 22:32Billy Corgan?

  So that's kind of my point is, is not to sort of bang on MTV. I mean, they're their own business and they have their own reasons for what they did or didn't do. But I think we all understand that the power of that network at that time, and because we still have fans 30 years later because of their emotional connection. And a lot of those emotional connections came through the videos.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 22:56Billy Corgan?

  Even the way people perceived my band, in reality or non-reality, had to do with the way we represented ourselves in video.

• 23:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:04Billy Corgan?

  That was more, in many ways, more imprinting on people's minds than the band on stage.

• 23:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 23:12Speaker 00

  Which is amazing when you think about it.

• 23:14Billy Corgan?

  Well, what I really realized, because I struggled at different times when I reformed the band in 2007, and it would be just me and Jimmy, and then it would just be me, and people would be mad at me. You know what I mean? And I would say, but I made the records, and I would sort of give my defense on why I should legitimately be able to carry on the band without them. And what I really ultimately realized at Seinfeld, they want the original cast on stage.

• 23:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:37Billy Corgan?

  They need to see the original cast. And even when people still to this day ask for Darcy to come back, they want to see the band back together, but it's less about the band musically, and it's more about the band visually.

• 23:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  The emotional connection they have to the image of the band.

• 23:52Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 23:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 23:53Billy Corgan?

  Yes, and I realized that when I like would say go see the Monkees or something.

• 23:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 23:58Billy Corgan?

  It's something about seeing them together and their interaction.

• 24:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:03Billy Corgan?

  Is in many ways more powerful to me than them on record, which as you know with the Monkees, it was studio bands and.

• 24:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:10Billy Corgan?

  You know, whatever called this the Sunset Preachers or you'll know that you'll know that the original band name.

• 24:14Speaker 00

  Yeah, all those guys and but and you know, it's amazing too. It's those Monkey Preachers records are really great though. A lot. There's so many great songs on those albums, actually.

• 24:21Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, you see, there's your trivia question. What was the name of the?

• 24:25Speaker 00

  Well, they were the wrecking crew guys. Candy Store Prophecy.

• 24:28Speaker 01

  Oh, that's incredible.

• 24:30Speaker 00

  You know, wrecking crew guys were involved. Like, everybody was kind of like.

• 24:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, that's the famous thing where they got into a fight about.

• 24:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:37Billy Corgan?

  You know, who?

• 24:38Speaker 00

  The Mike Nesmith punching the hole through the wall.

• 24:40Billy Corgan?

  At the Beverly Hills Hotel.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:43Billy Corgan?

  So, uh,

• 24:46Billy Corgan?

  because we're talking about it and I think it's, you know, I feel like Gen X is finally ready to have its moment. It's it's it's 10, 12, two years too late, but it'll be fine.

• 24:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 24:56Billy Corgan?

  Um, so let's have the moment. So, walk me inside. I mean, it was more your gig than yours. I know you worked there, but but walk me inside MTV in those years. Like, you know, the political process, the sort of the press, the outside pressure. Just give me a snapshot of.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  Well, it's really interesting how, you know, I'll give you some examples, but, you know, on Mondays, we would do the acquisitions meeting, which meant it was all the videos that would come out and and to be the 10 of us, we there were 10 of us on the committee, right? You know? And of course, you know, it's cool because Alison and I are both on now and I'm on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Committee with Alison as well. We're all on that.

• 25:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I didn't know you were on it.

• 25:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. So it's and it's great, you know, because we're we get to go in there, fight for rock bands that we love.

• 25:42Billy Corgan?

  Good luck.

• 25:43Speaker 00

  But yeah, I know that, you know, let me like, yeah, but I but I will say this, I just, every Monday, we would, everybody would kind of would meet in this about one in the afternoon. I'll take you through what what that was all about.

• 25:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:58Speaker 00

  That music department, it was 10 people and um, so. Because I I was very grateful. I had one music director of the year, alternative music director for the country. And they were like, who's this guy from Asbury Park? Like, you know what I mean? It was like Jersey Shore. You know, most it was always reserved for the major city dudes and women. And so I think that grabbed some attention besides people were listening to the station. That worked at MTV that were could get it over the water from the Jersey side. In lower Manhattan or in the south end of Long Island. I get it. So anyway, so we so we'd go in every Monday. There'd be a list and it probably it could be anywhere from thirty to forty videos and we would watch them all.

• 26:41Speaker 00

  So we would sit there, the ten of us, and literally sit there, you know, with pads. You know what I mean? Yeah. And kind of watch everything and then and then it would be kind of a situation where. And the thing that was interesting was even though certain people would be more involved with other shows. From a programming standpoint, we would all vote on everything. So if it was, you know, if when when Tupac's. Dear Monica Mama came in or Dr. Dre's with Tupac, you know, California Love. So. Everybody literally like voted and had a voice about every genre. So it was very interesting. And that's why I think they were very. Careful to make sure it was people that understood and were open minded to listening to everything.

• 27:27Speaker 00

  Which is how I think I ended up being hired to be one of the ten people in that committee. But it was like, so we go through forty videos. So we would go, oh, this one's, you know what? This is great. We should do this one for one twenty. You know, Kurt Steffek would be there, Amy. You know. Yes. We'd all, you know, like Louis Large and Andy Shone. And it was all so it was a great group. And everybody was passionate about music and passionate about things they love too. And we're really afraid to say that. So I love that there were those battles, but that was not the day for the battles. So the first day would be we'd watch everything new in a week. And then two days later, we would go in and then it would be about the rotations, like how often a record is gonna play, is it gonna? And then it would start to be, well, should this be a buzz clip?

• 28:10Billy Corgan?

  Ah.

• 28:11Speaker 00

  So then we'd decide which things were buzz clips. So it would be, you know, and like, oh, we're gonna, this one's perfect.

• 28:17Billy Corgan?

  Meanwhile, we're at home like sweating.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  Yeah. But you had, you had fans in there from like the day one, you know, obviously.

• 28:24Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, no, we were, we were blessed in that regard.

• 28:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:27Speaker 01

  Well, that Today video just blew my mind.

• 28:30Speaker 00

  It was so great. And.

• 28:32Billy Corgan?

  But see, that's this, but see what's interesting about that, and this is where having people inside the Borg were important, who understood what the band was trying to say.

• 28:43Billy Corgan?

  Our first video came out, which was Cher Brock, and it didn't perform very well.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:47Billy Corgan?

  And it didn't really catch on alternative radio.

• 28:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:50Billy Corgan?

  So the label completely panicked.

• 28:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 28:52Billy Corgan?

  And I got a call from our A and R guy, Mark Williams, who said, we need to make another video right away. And he said, you have any ideas? And I said, yeah, I have this idea, I want to be a ice cream truck driver.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  That's the best.

• 29:04Billy Corgan?

  And he said, and he goes, no.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:06Billy Corgan?

  I go, what do you mean, no? He goes, we can't play a game, it's MTV, we have, you guys have to make a very conservative, no-brainer video, what I call the band stands against a brick wall video.

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, right, right, right.

• 29:19Billy Corgan?

  You know, hot chick walking in slow motion, band against a brick wall. And I said, there's no way we're doing that, we're gonna do the ice cream truck video. Which is why if you watch the Today video, there's this weird artistic overlay with Zbriski Point, because the director didn't like my concept. So he basically put his concept, which he wanted to do some kind of weird Zbriski Point, which is why there's people making out in the hills.

• 29:43Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 29:44Speaker 00

  So he was a fan of that movie?

• 29:46Billy Corgan?

  So he basically forced Zbriski Point over my ice cream truck idea.

• 29:53Billy Corgan?

  Did you know?

• 29:54Speaker 01

  I remember both clearly.

• 29:55Billy Corgan?

  Of course I did, but I was like, why do we need the arty people making out in the hills as I drive by in the ice cream truck?

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  That's amazing.

• 30:05Speaker 01

  That's amazing contact. I will say though, it worked. It ended up working.

• 30:08Billy Corgan?

  But it was one of those things where you cross your fingers because you bet the whole farm. At that point, if that video hadn't clicked or you guys had rejected it.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:17Billy Corgan?

  We were sunk.

• 30:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:19Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 30:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:19Billy Corgan?

  Because we're supposed to be the next, you know, big alternative band.

• 30:23Speaker 01

  I think like as a kid just watching this from home, it felt like for the first time, because I was raised on great music from my parents. It was like Motown and 50s rock and roll. But seeing this, it felt so weird, like everything that was coming out in the early 90s. Obviously from Smokey and the Spider, the gym with like the, you know, like I just, everything was weird. And then seeing you and like the ice cream truck were kind of like, what's happening? And I love it.

• 30:49Billy Corgan?

  The level of subversion in the messaging, if you really look at it.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 30:53Speaker 01

  It felt like ours.

• 30:54Billy Corgan?

  Let's talk about Teen Spirit. What's the, there's, there, there they are in the, in the high school gym with the alternative cheerleaders.

• 30:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 31:00Billy Corgan?

  I mean, the symbolism is.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:02Billy Corgan?

  It's our time now.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  Yes, and that's how it felt.

• 31:05Speaker 00

  It was so impactful.

• 31:07Speaker 01

  It was so.

• 31:07Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's what's so beautiful in hindsight, but it, but the reality was we were up against other forces. Thankfully, people like you inside who go, okay, there's something happening here. This is important. And you being, and you playing those songs on the radio, you were, you had the street feel for the, for the music.

• 31:22Speaker 00

  And it was a beautiful thing because that's it. It's always so important to, literally, I, I've always, and I know you feel the same way, Allison. You know, thought that it was, people really need, not only just be, have a real true passion for, but they have to really be able to observe and understand what's going on.

• 31:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, there is. I'm sorry.

• 31:41Speaker 00

  Oh, Gar, I say, so, so on, not only I like a fan level, but a real true understanding of what's happening around you. And that was really important, uh, always, not only for everybody, and that's why the difference like what you're talking about is that MTV drove culture then drove.

• 31:56Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely.

• 31:56Speaker 00

  Everything that was happening there, I mean, not only did they reflect it, but like, like it's kind of like when the year, the years were doing like VMAs long after you're actually playing videos and kind of chasing the culture that you used to literally.

• 32:13Billy Corgan?

  That's what, that's what I, that's kind of why I call it the death of MTV.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:16Billy Corgan?

  Not sure how they gave that all up. Let's, let's stay in the good years for a few more, a few more minutes.

• 32:22Billy Corgan?

  Let's talk a little bit because you you said you were watching. So let's start with you. The impact of 120 minutes on alternative culture. I mean, as you know, at the start of 120 minutes, there was no word called alternative music.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 32:34Billy Corgan?

  Remember that one point they tried to call it?

• 32:35Speaker 00

  Postmodern.

• 32:36Billy Corgan?

  Postmodern. I remember that. I was thinking like,

• 32:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was like,

• 32:40Billy Corgan?

  real clunky words.

• 32:41Speaker 00

  They kept the new wave thing for a long time.

• 32:43Billy Corgan?

  Well, new wave didn't really fit, but that's, there was no term for it. Now, now it's all clumped in, alternative music.

• 32:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:49Billy Corgan?

  But 120 minutes really created that model. Like, this can be its own genre of music.

• 32:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:55Billy Corgan?

  Up to that point, it was just weird music on the sides.

• 32:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:58Billy Corgan?

  If Seymour Stein put it out, maybe, you know, but

• 33:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:01Billy Corgan?

  for the most part, there was no real umbrella term.

• 33:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:04Billy Corgan?

  And certainly, we didn't see ourselves as punk.

• 33:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:07Billy Corgan?

  And punk, by and large, was considered anti-commercial.

• 33:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 33:11Billy Corgan?

  Right?

• 33:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:12Billy Corgan?

  So, talk a little bit of, let's start there. So that's 120 minutes. I think the, looking back as a journalist now, the impact of 120 minutes.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  It felt like it was a world made for me. I felt like I, everything that Matt would tell me to like, I genuinely loved it. Not just because he told me to like it, I agreed with him. I felt like we were friends and he was giving me the inside scoop. And it was also the place where I saw a lot of amazing, strong women. Now, as a young girl, it was the first time I saw, no doubt, Just a Girl. I remember it was like, the first time I saw the Just a Girl video, it was so crazy and wild and her look and it was, I knew what, I knew what she was singing about. And I was like, this is incredible. She's a badass.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  Like, it was like girl power, but it was not about girl power. It was about just being equal and being fierce. And then seeing Alanis Morissette and You Oughta Know. And these women were not perfect and pretty. They were gorgeous, but that's not what it was.

• 34:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, they weren't, they weren't model types.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Right, but that, to me, they were the most gorgeous women I'd ever seen because they were just so unapologetically fierce.

• 34:28Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:28Speaker 01

  And I was like, this is where I belong.

• 34:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:31Speaker 01

  This is the world I want to be part of.

• 34:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and that's a great way to describe it.

• 34:35Speaker 01

  So, and I needed, I was just glued to it.

• 34:38Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And you.

• 34:39Speaker 00

  I was very grateful to be one of the people that have one of the longest runs there. You know, because I it's funny, my first appearance on MTV was as a man on the street. Like, I was at a Robin Hitchcock show and Dave Kendall interviewed me on the street, which is funny because people.

• 34:54Billy Corgan?

  Poor Dave Kendall, we gave him such a hard time. He was such a sweetheart, too.

• 34:57Speaker 00

  Yeah, he's a good guy, a great guy. And, you know, when they first wrapped the first era of 120, they had me and Dave back as the guest. So we were on the road case. And it was like of your era. I talked about some of the people and, you know, but I remember, you know, like, one of the really interesting things about 122 was it was just such a great place, you know, to do some of the things that we did. Like, I remember at the end of the show, we would do this thing where we'd talk about a band you might not know. Like, say it would be, you know, I mean, for example, T-Rex or The Velvet Underground, or Lou Reed, you know, something like that.

• 35:37Speaker 00

  And at the end of the show, this was there was a period where we were just doing that over the credits, but first I would tell you which albums you should check out by that artist. So it was a little.

• 35:48Billy Corgan?

  Pre-internet.

• 35:48Speaker 00

  Pre-internet. So it was way before.

• 35:50Billy Corgan?

  Very powerful.

• 35:51Speaker 00

  It was, you know, a really important thing. And I, you know, and I'll just always remember, you know, just not only great bands that ended up on there like you and spending time with everybody. But, you know, one of the things that's always been really interesting to me about MTV was how much heat we took for staying behind Radiohead when the bands.

• 36:10Billy Corgan?

  Really?

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:11Billy Corgan?

  Tell me that.

• 36:12Speaker 00

  This story is pretty amazing. So we were really, we believed in the bands, and I absolutely loved that record start to finish. And so, but at that point, a lot of the industry was like, these guys are one-hit wonder.

• 36:26Billy Corgan?

  And so. Yeah, they were the band that had Creep.

• 36:29Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 36:29Billy Corgan?

  They didn't follow up Creep with another.

• 36:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:32Billy Corgan?

  All-rock classic. So the word on the street was they were done.

• 36:35Speaker 00

  They were done. Yeah, that's what people were saying. And so.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  Which is why they also hated performing the song.

• 36:40Speaker 00

  You know, so, you know, some of those things were like, you know, they, we stuck behind each video that came in, whether it was Fake Plastic Trees or Just, you know. And what happened was. We just, we were getting heat from the rest of the record labels. They would all go, but we have this band that sold a thousand more copies this week. And we go, but this is, song is great. The video is very artistic. We, we believe in this as an overall.

• 37:11Billy Corgan?

  So I love this. Tell me more because I love this idea that you're getting heat on something.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 37:15Billy Corgan?

  It's something we can all relate to.

• 37:16Speaker 00

  Yeah, I mean, they were like, they'd be, you know, saying, but this record sold an extra thousand copies this week. But we really believe in this. So we're gonna, so we pushed back against it.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  It's a pretty incredible story because when Tom Your came in and they came in and gave us gold records for, for the Benz. Tom was standing there, me and Louis Sargent and Andy Shone. We're in, we were all in this, in this one room where we, it was the room where we basically, you know, do the meeting where we, you know, pick the, you know, the place and when artists come in and visit. So, I will never forget when Tom gave us the gold records, you know, and the label was there and he, he was just standing there and it circled me and Andy and Louis. And, cause I remember, I remember so much detail. Guys, that's the craziest thing after the struggle. Like it was, just, it's still there and I'm so grateful. Unbelievable. You're bionic.

• 38:10Speaker 00

  But so it was, I will never forget this moment. So Tom walked up to us and we're standing there, we're holding the gold records for the Benz. And he walks up and he goes, I just want you to know, I know how much heat you took for staying behind this record. And I want you to know how much it means, means to me. And he burst into tears. And it was beautiful. It was the most beautiful things ever. And Andy Shone looked at me and said, you know, this is why we do this. This is what it's about. And it was, it was such a beautiful moment. I'll never forget.

• 38:44Billy Corgan?

  That's why the, you know, again, it's my dramatic phrase, but that's why the death of MTV is painful to me because I know it was such an engine for breaking new artists.

• 38:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 38:54Billy Corgan?

  And now, cause I meet young people all the time and usually it's their parents that want to talk to me.

• 39:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 39:00Billy Corgan?

  And they say, what, what, what can my kid do? And I go, I wouldn't even know where to tell you to start.

• 39:07Billy Corgan?

  Especially for young women who are immediately put under the sort of the microscope of are you going to sexualize yourself to get fake attention and hope to convert that into musical attention. That's a tough ecosystem. So what do you tell an 18 year old girl's parents of how to break in the music business today, 2026?

• 39:29Speaker 01

  Well, that's why when I was at Spotify, I felt like a lot of not pressure, but opportunity that that was my moment to fight for the artists because

• 39:39Billy Corgan?

  Which you did.

• 39:40Speaker 01

  And that's really what I set out to do.

• 39:42Billy Corgan?

  We see the benefits of your work now kicking in.

• 39:45Speaker 01

  Thank you. I was just like you where I care so much about the artists, but I know that the audience wants to hear this and they deserve to hear it.

• 39:55Billy Corgan?

  They want the real deal. They really do.

• 39:57Speaker 01

  And I would literally, you know, you're like, we would watch that 40 videos a week. I was psycho. I was listening, I'm not exaggerating, to thousands of songs a week.

• 40:08Billy Corgan?

  Wow.

• 40:08Speaker 01

  Because I was like, you never know. And I would take artists out of obscurity because I knew that was my A and R background. We know when we hear a song. And I would put them on Rock This, the biggest playlist that I created. I would create playlists just to have places to support artists.

• 40:26Billy Corgan?

  Which is a beautiful thing.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  I would just keep creating playlists. Remember, every time I create one, I would send it to you.

• 40:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 40:31Speaker 01

  Because I knew that's important. There's so many subcultures and just so many different textures and sonic stamps. Why not? You know, and that was really what I think I was most proud of from being there because I felt like I was doing my best in that time to help create the, be almost like a cultural kind of translator, just kind of creating opportunities to connect and celebrate.

• 40:56Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And I think that's a great thing. And I love that. And like you said, it's funny because obviously you were such a major, an early supporter of Youngblood and then seeing the generations come together with you doing it was just beautiful to me.

• 41:10Speaker 01

  Like Youngblood was literally a brand new artist. So this is early 2018 and his first EPO and I, and I knew that he was going to be a global superstar. He's undeniable. And I literally just put him on the cover of Rock This because I'm like, this kid's a superstar. You know what I mean? And just to be able to be in that position was just such a gift.

• 41:31Speaker 00

  It was, you know, it was great at your birthday party. When I met him for the first time and he came over and sat down, he goes, I watched your interviews with Oasis. And you know.

• 41:41Billy Corgan?

  Of course, he knows who you are.

• 41:42Speaker 00

  You know, so, and that was really cool that, you know.

• 41:45Speaker 01

  For me to connect those two was a very full circle moment for me. It was like taking the man who inspired me from the beginning to an artist. I, I felt like I was doing with him that you have done with so many artists. And to connect the two of them was a beautiful, full circle moment.

• 41:59Speaker 00

  It was incredible.

• 42:00Speaker 01

  It was amazing. It was just about the culture.

• 42:02Speaker 00

  Yeah. It really is.

• 42:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, I think what you're seeing now is the reformation of the culture.

• 42:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:07Billy Corgan?

  I think maybe on one level, MTV made us all a little lazy. It became the ultimate marketing driver. And then when it went away, nobody had an answer. And then, of course, they were spot off.

• 42:19Billy Corgan?

  Napster and the piracy issues with the music business. Nobody knew how to really respond to it.

• 42:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:25Billy Corgan?

  Nobody seemed to know how to capitalize on all the energy of audiences wanting the music.

• 42:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 42:29Billy Corgan?

  And Napster made it easy. Oh, just go here and download all this.

• 42:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:33Billy Corgan?

  Pick your own music. Let's stand 120 minutes for a second. I just want to share a couple of funny stories because this would be the, this would be the environment to tell them in. So, um, two things. One, uh, we were, uh, offered an opportunity to appear on 120 Minutes with Dave Kendall.

• 42:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 42:49Billy Corgan?

  And we had taken a lot of stick from the local Chicago community bands. They, they didn't treat us very well. They, we were treated as a band that weren't from Chicago, even though we were from Chicago because our music was so weird. Because most of the bands at the time were soul asylum type bands or replacements. Three Hordes, I Went on the Weekend, I Got Drunk, these type of songs.

• 43:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:08Billy Corgan?

  So Dave Kendall logs me the softball and says, talk, tell me about the Chicago scene. And I said, well, I would, but all the Chicago bands suck. The amount of heat.

• 43:17Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 43:18Billy Corgan?

  I got in Chicago was nuclear. I mean, it lasted years because of that one comment. And then the other thing, uh, and, uh, you know, I should ask him, but my understanding is the reason we got the Red Hot Chili Pepper Tour with Pearl Jam opening for us, then us, and then Chili Peppers on the, under the bridge. You know, that peak MTV period for the peppers.

• 43:41Speaker 00

  But Sugar Sex Magic.

• 43:42Billy Corgan?

  Because our video for, uh, uh.

• 43:47Billy Corgan?

  I think Shiva.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:49Billy Corgan?

  Appeared one time on 120 Minutes and Anthony saw it.

• 43:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:53Billy Corgan?

  And that's how we got that tour.

• 43:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:55Speaker 01

  Oh, that's a great story.

• 43:57Billy Corgan?

  Guts to ask him if that's true.

• 43:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  I'm dying to ask him. That's amazing.

• 44:01Speaker 00

  The beauty about that is just how there were so many cultural changes, impact of people getting played once or twice, and it actually affected my life on that show.

• 44:12Billy Corgan?

  And it felt like it felt like gold. Like if you saw something, you were like.

• 44:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:17Billy Corgan?

  I could still remember seeing Swerve Driver raved down.

• 44:20Speaker 00

  By the way, can we just say?

• 44:22Billy Corgan?

  Who the hell is Swerve Driver?

• 44:23Speaker 00

  And how great is that song? I mean.

• 44:25Billy Corgan?

  What a great band.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  What an amazing band.

• 44:27Billy Corgan?

  We did a bunch of shows.

• 44:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. And you know, I've talked about Catherine Wheel, bands like that that we loved, you know, over the years. And you know, but yeah, Swerve Driver, so cool, so heavy, but yet so.

• 44:38Billy Corgan?

  But look at the connections. Pumpkins played with Catherine Wheel, Pumpkins played with Swerve Driver.

• 44:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:43Billy Corgan?

  We played with a lot of the bands that we first saw on 120 Minutes. We ended up playing with those bands.

• 44:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  120 Minutes was like a treasure trove.

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  You know, of just like these golden tickets, you know, these golden acts. It just felt like you were in the inside of something very special.

• 44:59Speaker 00

  You know, like I always say, I was, it was an absolute honor to host the show. And it was also, it was just such a beautiful opportunity. You know, to be one of the longest running hosts of the show, me and Kendall, definitely being the two longest running ones. It was just an incredible experience because it's what I was doing on radio. And in a weird way, what I was doing in school when I was that like music obsessed nerd.

• 45:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 45:26Speaker 00

  Kid, bringing records to school to show people.

• 45:28Billy Corgan?

  That's the power of the DJ.

• 45:30Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? So, so I'm very, you know, like it's, again, being part of that history is a beautiful thing.

• 45:36Billy Corgan?

  Yes. I'll tell you a quick story.

• 45:39Billy Corgan?

  Dick Behonde was a legend in Chicago radio. He was like the DJ of Chicago and broke a lot of the famous 60s bands, including bands that broke out of Chicago, like The Crying Shames. It was Dick Behonde and the Shadows.

• 45:52Speaker 00

  Buckingham's and all that stuff.

• 45:53Billy Corgan?

  Yes, and I and my dad was friends with one of the Buckingham's. So I actually grew up around the Buckingham's when I was a kid.

• 45:58Speaker 00

  Those are great records. I love all that stuff.

• 46:01Billy Corgan?

  Pretty cool.

• 46:01Speaker 00

  I'm such a 60s.

• 46:02Billy Corgan?

  Pretty cool. Yeah. Well, you and me can go down that rabbit hole. That's another show. But yeah. Anyway, so Dick Behonde was basically semi-retired and the Pumpkins were starting to gain traction early 90s and we went into a local radio station. It might have been local WLS and.

• 46:18Speaker 00

  WLS been legendary since the 60s.

• 46:20Billy Corgan?

  Yes. And, and I think Dick Behonde was still some kind of advisor. He wasn't on the air much. He would kind of, it was more like guest spots.

• 46:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:27Billy Corgan?

  And somebody said, oh, Mr. Behonde would like to meet you. And I said, oh, okay. And, and he came over and he started talking to me and he almost started talking to me like I wouldn't know who he was.

• 46:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:41Billy Corgan?

  And I was like, Mr. Behonde, I know who you are. And he goes, you know who I am? And I go, are you kidding?

• 46:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 46:49Billy Corgan?

  Like, you are the reason I'm here. Like, you understand the power of you on the radio?

• 46:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 46:55Billy Corgan?

  Is the reason.

• 46:56Speaker 01

  He was. That's so sweet.

• 46:58Billy Corgan?

  But I, but I, my father was a musician, but my love of music came from the DJ.

• 47:03Speaker 00

  Yes. Yeah, that's great.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 47:06Speaker 00

  What a legend Dick Behonde is. And there are so many great Chicago bands in that area of, area of top 40.

• 47:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, it was just. Even funnier, Bob Serat is transferred out of being a DJ and now he's kind of like a morning guy in Chicago. And sometimes I'll, I'll be on Bob Serat's show, but I used to call Bob Serat as a kid and request songs.

• 47:24Speaker 00

  Do you remember some of the stuff you requested?

• 47:26Billy Corgan?

  Earth, Wind & Fire.

• 47:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, what, Shining Star? Or was it a?

• 47:30Billy Corgan?

  It would have been like mid 70s or Earth, Wind & Fire. I just loved Earth, Wind & Fire.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  That's so great.

• 47:34Billy Corgan?

  Okay, let's, um, let's shift a little bit, uh, because, uh, would you agree that rock is about to have another huge moment?

• 47:42Speaker 01

  It already is. It already is. Let's go.

• 47:44Billy Corgan?

  I'll argue with you a little bit. We're not quite there yet. Youngblood, I think, sort of shows what's coming.

• 47:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:49Billy Corgan?

  And maybe, maybe he'll be the first across.

• 47:51Speaker 01

  The shift has begun.

• 47:52Speaker 00

  I love the rock. And I have so much strong belief in it.

• 47:56Billy Corgan?

  As the kids say, LFG.

• 47:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 47:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. But, um.

• 48:03Billy Corgan?

  Couple, couple fun questions.

• 48:04Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 48:05Billy Corgan?

  Okay, here's the fun question. Did hair metal have to die for grunge to live?

• 48:11Speaker 00

  For me, I don't think so, because I don't think it ever 100% died for the fans who loved it.

• 48:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 48:16Speaker 00

  But there definitely had to be space made, I think, at MTV and places like that, because

• 48:23Speaker 01

  There was actually coveted slots.

• 48:24Speaker 00

  Yeah, like, it comes down to MTV and radio.

• 48:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 48:28Speaker 00

  Certain things had to happen for, you know, like

• 48:32Billy Corgan?

  But I'm saying it's become a kind of a cultural thing that like,

• 48:35Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 48:35Billy Corgan?

  You know, grunge killed.

• 48:36Speaker 01

  Only in the mainstream, only in the mainstream. Because like, the people who fell in love with grunge, for a lot of people, it was just the timing where that was our first introduction to something we found.

• 48:48Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 48:49Speaker 00

  Yeah, and some of those people, you know, it's like, and some of those people stole, whether they were in the Motley Crue place or the Metallica place, that were rock fans back then, or Van Halen, you know, it could have been, you know, but it was one of those things where it certainly, you know, generational shift in a big way.

• 49:08Speaker 01

  It was a timing, it was really a big timing.

• 49:10Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so, we'll start with you. What was the first time that you thought, okay, something's really happening? Like, in alternative music, late 80s, early 90s, what was the first time you were like, wait, something is different?

• 49:22Speaker 01

  Hearing Smells Like Teen Spirit, that was it.

• 49:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 49:25Speaker 01

  Like, that was it. I, I had, it made me, I can tell you exactly where I was the day I heard it. I was at Suzanne Rosenberg's bat mitzvah. And, by the way, I was a dancer. I wanted to be a fly girl and in living color. Okay, I was a good dancer. I was, I was listening to like, En Vogue and Janet Jackson, and like, I was a dancer. We were at, I was like, literally doing like an MC Hammer dance, and then Smells Like Teen Spirit came on. And I, something happened to me. I'd never felt this way from music ever. I started literally jumping and involuntarily like grabbing people. And I remember running up to the DJ and I was like, what is that? And he was like, it's a new band. It's called Nirvana. Now granted, this is, this means

• 50:09Speaker 01

  it's already been around because now we're in the suburbs of New York.

• 50:13Billy Corgan?

  But still.

• 50:14Speaker 01

  And I had my parents drop me off at Tower Records the next day. I was there for 12 hours. Like I literally was reading and absorbing all that I could because that's when I learned that there were like Soundgarden and Pearl Jam and like I just, that was the day for me. And that put me on a different path.

• 50:32Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Speaker 01

  That was it. I remember that. I can describe myself, my life before and after hearing Smells Like Teen Spirit.

• 50:38Billy Corgan?

  So what for you was the sort of first kind of flagship moment?

• 50:42Speaker 00

  Well, I, I knew that certainly that was a big part of it because it was so interesting that what happened was, and I can say related to Smells Like Teen Spirit, like, because you could, I look at alternative music and rock, because obviously you and I've talked about rock and roll. Like, we've talked about Deep Purple to every, to ELOD.

• 51:01Billy Corgan?

  To be fair, I think you and I see it in a continuous line.

• 51:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 51:04Billy Corgan?

  Is that fair?

• 51:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 51:05Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 51:06Speaker 00

  I see it in a complete continuous line because, you know, when it comes, if you look on the alt side, uh, you know, obviously there were inklings when you saw R E M and Depeche Mode and The Cure having big records in the top 10 in America was, was very much, you know.

• 51:22Billy Corgan?

  But maybe, let's call it grunge.

• 51:23Speaker 00

  But let's say grunge. But that for me was, that's when that sort of happened, boy, did I see change. And it changed all our lives too. It was very, it was amazing how great that moment was. And I'll never forget. So I'm one of the, I'm, you know, programming one of the 13 or 14 alternative stations in the U S at that point. Um, there weren't that many stations. They started to flip after things started to happen. But so I'm, I'm one of those 13 stations. I remember when I got the single, I still, I gave my friend the cassette of the Smells Like Teen Spirit cassette that I had that had it three times on each side because he's a massive Nirvana fan. And I gave him that original cassette they sent to the radio stations. But I remember when I got the CD single too, and

• 52:06Speaker 00

  I was like, I literally put it on and went. Holy shit. I mean, there was just something very unbelievably powerful about it. And with all the stuff that was starting to happen in ninety one, it was just a period, you know, because I was already, you know, a fan of of Soundgarden and it was like in the Chili Peppers. I'd already, I interviewed them. They'd come up in like an RV, pop up RV to the radio station, literally up this, uh, like, like, you know, like rock driveway. It was Flea, Hello, and it and, um, and Anthony to do a radio interview with me back, you know, before things happened, before Mother's Milk, you know, before John joined. But, um, but you know, but that really is, that was a massive period of change.

• 52:50Speaker 00

  And it it affected our lives in just an unbelievable way because obviously affected yours, your life too. We were like, you and I see it linear, as you said, and as a, as a line. But I knew something amazing was happening at that moment. And to be in the center of it, like, I remember, you know, going to, even though I wasn't on MTV yet, and I was going, I was invited in. So I went and Son of Nevada Play, there's this five or six song show that they did at the old MTV Studios on National.

• 53:23Billy Corgan?

  That's where they bring you in and do like a, like a half hour special.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  Exactly.

• 53:27Billy Corgan?

  We did those too. Yeah.

• 53:28Speaker 00

  And you remember doing those. So.

• 53:29Billy Corgan?

  It was terrible, but yeah.

• 53:31Speaker 00

  But I was there for theirs. And it's really funny because I'm standing over the band. If you look at the video of it.

• 53:36Billy Corgan?

  Oh, is it with the kind of the wraparound?

• 53:38Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 53:39Billy Corgan?

  Kind of a wraparound viewing area.

• 53:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was kind of interesting because I like, I just remember the part on top of it. It was, you know, and then, but like, I saw stuff happening everywhere when that was happening. Literally, it started, I just, you knew something was absolutely up at that period of time. And, uh, and it was just then it, it's really kicked down the door for a lot of things.

• 54:03Billy Corgan?

  For me, it was, um. I was already listening to Bad Brains and I'd seen the Chili Peppers in eighty six.

• 54:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:10Billy Corgan?

  Maybe even eighty five.

• 54:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:12Billy Corgan?

  A song played in like front of a hundred people in Florida. So I was aware and I was already listening to Cure and all that stuff. But for me, the that one Soundgarden EP.

• 54:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:21Billy Corgan?

  Um, I can't remember.

• 54:22Speaker 00

  Fop was it?

• 54:23Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 54:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:24Billy Corgan?

  That was the first time I thought, okay, now this is different.

• 54:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:29Billy Corgan?

  Because over here on the metal side, Rick Rubin was producing bands like Trouble. And even like, um, uh, Black Crows, it's like, there was something going on.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  Eventually, yeah, too.

• 54:41Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. And I would go see those bands, even Early Faith No More.

• 54:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:45Billy Corgan?

  But it was something about Soundgarden.

• 54:47Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:47Billy Corgan?

  Kind of grabbing the Sabbath thing.

• 54:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:50Billy Corgan?

  And I thought, okay, now that's different.

• 54:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 54:53Billy Corgan?

  And that was right in my wheelhouse. I was like, okay, now this I understand.

• 54:57Speaker 00

  I love that. I mean, that was the thing about Soundgarden from the very beginning and they had come through and.

• 55:02Billy Corgan?

  Well.

• 55:02Speaker 00

  Go to those shows, played, you know, like I, I ended up with this actual poster of their first show from CBGB's. Uh, playing with Howie Pyros Band, you know, before Degeneration. And, but I just, they were one of those bands that I.

• 55:17Billy Corgan?

  So they were the first bands that got signed. Remember they got, were they, what, you know what label they were on?

• 55:21Speaker 00

  Yeah. So, yeah, they started for a minute with SST and then something up, but then they got signed to A and M.

• 55:27Billy Corgan?

  Thank you.

• 55:27Speaker 01

  So they were the first.

• 55:29Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. So imagine, uh, so that would have been eighty nine.

• 55:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:32Billy Corgan?

  Right? Louder than Love.

• 55:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 55:33Speaker 00

  And I love, and I loved that record. So it came out, you heard Hands All Over, you know what I mean? Uh, Get on the Snake.

• 55:40Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but let me put you in the room. Okay. So I'm at a sold out show at the cabaret metro at the time in Chicago. And Soundgarden's, you know, they're about to start to have that moment. It hasn't kicked in yet, but they're like really the first band kind of getting across the line.

• 55:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 55:55Billy Corgan?

  And I'm waiting, sold out show, and I'm waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting like this. And, and I think who, I can't remember who the opening band was. And I turned my head and Cornell's standing right here.

• 56:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 56:05Billy Corgan?

  Right? The guy looked like a Greek god.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  Gorgeous. An Adonis.

• 56:10Billy Corgan?

  From the beginning.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  An Adonis.

• 56:11Billy Corgan?

  And you're looking at him like, you can sing like that and you look like that?

• 56:15Speaker 01

  Right, I know.

• 56:18Billy Corgan?

  So game on.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Wait, I just want to say one more thing, bringing that up. From my perspective, of course, these bands had all been around, but okay, so my first introduction was basically MTV. Okay, so you're, you're seeing Kurt Cobain, you're seeing Chris Cornell, you're seeing Eddie Vedder, you're seeing Billy Corgan, you're seeing Shannon Hoon. All of these.

• 56:37Billy Corgan?

  Shannon also a beautiful man.

• 56:38Speaker 01

  Magnificently gorgeous. I'm, I'm like 12. And I am like dying, you know, I'm like, not only do I, just to your point, not only do I love this music and it's speaking to me, but I'm also in love with every single singer here. Do you know what I mean? Like, how lucky for me.

• 56:55Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 56:56Speaker 01

  That that was my imprinting years, that that's, the connection runs deep. Like, the frontmen all had not only amazing voices, but just such a, a powerful presence.

• 57:06Billy Corgan?

  Well, even in Scott Weiland.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, Scott. I mean, the list goes on and on.

• 57:12Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:12Speaker 01

  It was, it was, what a time.

• 57:13Speaker 00

  It was, and you know, the thing about that Soundgarden thing too, is I just, to be honest with you, I knew something great was gonna happen from the very beginning with seeing them in those early years. That's what.

• 57:25Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 57:26Speaker 00

  I embraced them very early on.

• 57:27Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, you would have gotten it from the rock side.

• 57:30Speaker 00

  Yeah, cuz I loved them. And I thought, you know, this, and that's where that relationship with them started so, so early for me, you know, and.

• 57:37Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying, you of all people would have been like, oh, I know where this is coming from.

• 57:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:41Billy Corgan?

  And I think we probably had a similar response.

• 57:43Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 57:43Billy Corgan?

  Because of our deep love for classic rock.

• 57:45Speaker 00

  It does, and you'd have a massive love for that. And then, you know, like, you just talked about the Sabbath thing, like, all the things, those elements that they had with.

• 57:52Speaker 01

  But you know, it was so.

• 57:53Speaker 00

  There's Little Zeppelin, it was everything.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  But what was so cool, when I heard all those bands, I went back and learned more about metal because of Soundgarden's love for metal. I went back and learned about David Bowie because Nirvana covered Bowie.

• 58:07Billy Corgan?

  Well, that, sorry to interrupt you, that's what was so funny to us in, on the artistic side.

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 58:13Billy Corgan?

  Is these snobby record critics would write about the bands. But Kurt had grown up on Black Sabbath and Cheap Trick, just like I had.

• 58:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:21Billy Corgan?

  We love classic rock.

• 58:23Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 58:23Billy Corgan?

  But if you mentioned those artists in the, in the interviews, you would get made fun of by the, by the New York critics. So that's why a lot of those interviews, the artists would be like, oh, I'm really into, you know, Joe and the Jerktones. Like, they would start making up influences that they didn't really have.

• 58:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:40Billy Corgan?

  Because it was more politically expedient to pretend they were into the same music that the critics were.

• 58:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:45Billy Corgan?

  But, but, but grunge was absolutely fueled by classic rock.

• 58:48Speaker 00

  A hundred percent. And it was that, that, that's why it was that thing where they had talked about the fact that there was a, you know, commonality with bands like The Cult, then why they, they, they were accepted by even all those bands in Seattle. Because they're like, they, they have those elements of what's great about classic rock.

• 59:06Billy Corgan?

  You could, you could make the argument that The Cult was the first band to figure it out.

• 59:10Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:11Billy Corgan?

  Because they were purely, I never thought about it until we just talked about it just now. Because you probably saw them in eighty-nine like I did.

• 59:17Speaker 00

  Of course.

• 59:17Billy Corgan?

  With Craig from Sisters of Mercy on bass.

• 59:20Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 59:20Billy Corgan?

  And Matt Sorum on drums.

• 59:22Speaker 00

  Yeah, that's right.

• 59:22Billy Corgan?

  Great tour.

• 59:23Speaker 00

  It was amazing.

• 59:24Billy Corgan?

  One of the best live shows I've ever seen.

• 59:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 59:25Billy Corgan?

  Right? They might've been the first band with Rick Rubin to figure out that by taking the values of alternative music and applying it into classic rock formula, like that became the grunge. That was it.

• 59:37Speaker 00

  It really was. And that's why everybody looked at them up there in Seattle, like they talk about when they came up there, how much they love them. They, they really did. And there was all that overtones of everything from ACDC to Zeppelin, right?

• 59:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, even, even Queen and all of it, yeah.

• 59:51Speaker 00

  All these bands you and I love, and that you love too.

• 59:53Billy Corgan?

  I do too.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  Because, you know, so it's like, you know, we've had, we had great conversations in the past about

• 59:59Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 59:59Speaker 00

  our first concerts and all that stuff, you know?

• 1:00:01Billy Corgan?

  Um. So let me ask you this, because I think this gets into the autopsy now a little bit on the MTV thing. This is my estimation, and I want your feedback.

• 1:00:11Billy Corgan?

  The record companies in giving MTV free IP made the fatal error that ultimately led to the demise of MTV. So here's the logic that I have.

• 1:00:21Billy Corgan?

  MTV figures out, well, we can get all this free content, free network content, we're, we're printing cash. And then MTV ups the pressure and ups the pressure, you gotta make more expensive videos, you have to sort of, you have to do it our way, standards and practices, all the stuff that came into play.

• 1:00:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:00:36Billy Corgan?

  Talk about any of it if you want, but, but what was interesting was The the labels, if you remember this, there was a point, I don't remember the year. MTV gained so much power, it might have been pre Grunge era, but MTV gained so much power that the labels announced they were going to start their own MTV. Do you remember this?

• 1:00:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, oh, yeah.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:53Billy Corgan?

  And it lasted, three labels came together. I remember Warner Brothers was one of them. Because I remember Mo Austin or Lenny Warne talking about it.

• 1:01:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Billy Corgan?

  And they came out, said, we're going to do our own MTV. And literally, within two or three days, MTV released a press release that said, if you do this, we won't play that, we won't play those artists on MTV, and the labels backed down.

• 1:01:13Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:01:14Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, and it's like,

• 1:01:16Billy Corgan?

  Isn't that crazy?

• 1:01:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:01:18Speaker 00

  It's kind of like the radio thing, and you know, there's been, there's been individual situations like that. You know, where I was approached by a major label, other than when I worked as an A and R guy and we worked at Sony. I was approached by another major label that was like, hey, I just want you to do content for us, and we're gonna like, not give our stuff to MTV. And I was like, but I still do stuff with them, and I still do stuff with, you know, like, you know, HD Net, which became Access TV. And then, you know, I was on the radio at K-Rock in New York, where, you know, Stern was and everything. So I was, you know, I, I literally, somebody actually tried to get, like, to have me come there and just do that.

• 1:02:01Speaker 00

  And I was like, but that doesn't really benefit the artist if there's multiple platforms. So I, so I decided not to take that gig. But, you know, it's, it's interesting, though, because you're right, it's a very different world now. Because, you know, MTV got all that stuff without really having to, you know, pay for the content and all the other stuff, but it paid debit.

• 1:02:23Billy Corgan?

  Which is, I'm saying, that's part A, but then part B was when MTV figured out they could get greater ratings with the reality shows, the game shows, they played less and less and less videos.

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Billy Corgan?

  So the labels set themselves up where they were beholden to MTV as a marketing tool. And then when MTV turned the volume down, the labels had no response.

• 1:02:40Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:02:40Billy Corgan?

  And then along comes Napster, and here we are.

• 1:02:44Speaker 00

  It was a, it was a. You know, that was a disappointing thing where there was, you know, less music played. You know, I've heard many different reasons why it was like, as we know, it's like, well, they, they do the, they rate television by the quarter hour. So if someone doesn't like a video, they're gonna turn it off. So why not show another rerun of The Real World? I mean, I wasn't in those conversations, but these are things I heard secondhand. Um, and so, um.

• 1:03:13Billy Corgan?

  But what I liked about it was we would just put MTV on.

• 1:03:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:18Billy Corgan?

  And just watch. So you were exposed to a lot of music that you didn't think you liked, that you end up becoming fans of.

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Wonderful.

• 1:03:23Billy Corgan?

  I became a huge Janet Jackson fan.

• 1:03:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:26Billy Corgan?

  Because she made such great music with Jimmy Jam.

• 1:03:29Speaker 00

  Jimmy Jam.

• 1:03:29Billy Corgan?

  Those, those productions are fantastic.

• 1:03:32Speaker 00

  Right. So, and you know, and I agree. So here's the thing, that's, I think, one of the sad things that's missing.

• 1:03:38Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:03:39Speaker 00

  With, that you cannot replace with just an algorithm.

• 1:03:42Speaker 01

  Right. This is what.

• 1:03:43Speaker 00

  Is you need curated content where people's real ideas and thoughts go into it.

• 1:03:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:50Speaker 00

  There was like, that was the destination.

• 1:03:53Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:53Speaker 00

  You know what I mean? And that's what's, that's one of the sad things that's, that's obviously missing with that. Because if you're constantly fed an algorithm with what you, what you like.

• 1:04:03Billy Corgan?

  What they think you like.

• 1:04:04Speaker 01

  The algorithm flattens it out. So if you like one song, it just keeps feeding you more of a similar song. But that's only one note in your palate.

• 1:04:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:15Speaker 01

  And it's one taste.

• 1:04:16Speaker 00

  And I think that what you said, and you know.

• 1:04:18Speaker 01

  That's why human curation is really important.

• 1:04:20Speaker 00

  It's the most important thing.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  That's why it cannot be replaced.

• 1:04:23Billy Corgan?

  Go to anybody's wedding, what are you gonna hear? Michael Jackson?

• 1:04:25Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:26Billy Corgan?

  Why are you gonna hear Michael Jackson? Because we all grew up on Michael Jackson.

• 1:04:29Speaker 01

  And everybody likes it.

• 1:04:29Billy Corgan?

  Even if you weren't a fan, you grew up on Michael Jackson.

• 1:04:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:32Billy Corgan?

  So everybody plays Michael Jackson at their wedding because it's what it is. It's great, you know?

• 1:04:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:37Billy Corgan?

  Can I make one prediction about streaming services I'm curious about?

• 1:04:40Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:04:40Billy Corgan?

  You've sort of sparked my. Mind in this way, here's my prediction. You're gonna start seeing, well, you already are. You're seeing artists abandon particular streaming services. I don't want to say who, but we all know who's getting the most heat in the market.

• 1:04:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:04:55Billy Corgan?

  Which is the market leader. But I think what's gonna happen is the streaming services are gonna become the new de facto labels. Basically, a high-level artist is gonna go and say, hey, who's gonna offer me the most in return for me coming to? You don't have to even necessarily give me money, but you gotta give me marketing or you gotta give me positioning on your service. This idea that everybody's gonna put all their music on all the services, I think is gonna go out the window. You have any predictions on that?

• 1:05:23Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think it's gonna be really interesting to see how. I mean, at some point, the bigger artists definitely will hold the cards, but it's.

• 1:05:31Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so if you're a top pop artist, you're gonna go, we got a new album right here.

• 1:05:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Billy Corgan?

  Who's gonna pay the most?

• 1:05:36Speaker 00

  Yes. Yes, Sabrina Carpenter.

• 1:05:39Billy Corgan?

  It could be as simple as, you don't have to pay me anymore, but I want a Super Bowl commercial.

• 1:05:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:44Billy Corgan?

  Give me a Super Bowl commercial, drive everyone to your site, and I'll be an ambassador, or give me a little piece of your business model or whatever, whatever. I think that's coming.

• 1:05:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:54Speaker 01

  Well, I also.

• 1:05:55Billy Corgan?

  Do you see that at all?

• 1:05:56Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's kind of more complex only because, you know, what last year showed us is that physical, physical growth has surpassed digital growth in the last year. It's the first time vinyl sales have eclipsed 1 billion in this entire century.

• 1:06:12Billy Corgan?

  My label, Martha's Music, which we sell through my tea house, madamzuzus.com, there's your plug, ding. Hit a bell every time we hit a plug. Alison Hagener Show, ding.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:24Billy Corgan?

  Our expanse as a label is now we're working with major labels to put out other product non-related to me. Because we've become such a big direct-to-consumer label.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  Exactly, and I think that's an important part of the puzzle that we're seeing that especially young people want, because they've never had it, a tactile experience. They realize when they're streaming music, they don't own it. You know, it's a lease. They actually want to own music again. So I think that. We've been keep, we keep being taught that the digital is killing the physical, but I think that there's going to be an interesting thing ahead that we're not really sure. We'll have to see. Um, and which means maybe albums will be coming back, you know?

• 1:07:04Billy Corgan?

  Well, yeah.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  And I think, I think that we're, our behavior is changing from consuming music. I don't like that word to collecting again, you know? So it's exciting to see what happens.

• 1:07:16Billy Corgan?

  I like to bang on about the death of the gatekeepers. Do you know what I mean when I say that?

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  Oh, I do.

• 1:07:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:21Billy Corgan?

  You want to jump in on that?

• 1:07:22Speaker 00

  Well, I know what you're talking about, you know? I, I think what's really interesting is I, you know, there, that, I mean, that's one of the things that's, there's always been that kind of, there's been like the good, good guys and women, and then there's been like some gatekeepers that have, you know, it feels like they've kept artists from progressing and promoting. But that's kind of the thing we've always kind of kicked against to be different than, right?

• 1:07:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:50Speaker 00

  You know, I think.

• 1:07:50Billy Corgan?

  But I, I'm, I'm, I'm enjoying my victory lap of the death of the gatekeepers.

• 1:07:55Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:55Billy Corgan?

  Cause I've outlived them.

• 1:07:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:07:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think when it comes down to is that platforms are always going to change. But the thing that is always going to be important are the actual people.

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Who curate and, and inspire that trust. And I think that as long as those people are there and that, that, that community will thrive around it. That's what the important thing is. And plus that hunger for that curation will always be.

• 1:08:18Speaker 00

  It is, I mean, that, and that's what's so important. And it's like, that's why I still enjoy doing that so much.

• 1:08:24Billy Corgan?

  Well, you're in the trench on it every day.

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  Yeah, I love that. I'm very grateful to be like, I, I.

• 1:08:30Billy Corgan?

  No, you are that guy.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:08:31Billy Corgan?

  You really are that guy.

• 1:08:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I'm, and I'm grateful for that. But I know, and I know what you're talking about is, cause you know, because. We are pure mu- real pure music fans and you're an artist, creative artist. At so many different levels, I understand that feeling, you know, like to see some of those people that have been.

• 1:08:51Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. Well, when you had the erosion of the major label system, the indie system rose rightly so.

• 1:08:57Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:08:58Billy Corgan?

  And we worked in some of those situations, but what happened vis a vis pitchfork being the most obvious example is then they kind of circle the wagons and sort of built a culture that was exclusive, not inclusive, where indie culture was always traditionally inclusive.

• 1:09:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:12Billy Corgan?

  Now it was, if you didn't record your album in a basement, you know, and you were into pet sounds, you didn't count anymore.

• 1:09:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:18Billy Corgan?

  You were irrelevant. You sort of turned into a dinosaur in the digital age, which was really weird because people with IP brand names have the most strength in the, in the digital marketplace. But I walked around for 50, 20 years telling me that my, people telling me my brand was like a millstone around my neck.

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  Yeah, which is.

• 1:09:35Billy Corgan?

  Well, because it didn't work within the system, which is the indie system was like, if you don't, if you don't check these seven boxes.

• 1:09:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:41Billy Corgan?

  Just a different form of gatekeeping.

• 1:09:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:43Billy Corgan?

  So.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  And I'm glad that at this point, it really comes down to.

• 1:09:47Speaker 01

  The audience decides.

• 1:09:49Speaker 00

  The people.

• 1:09:49Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's the point. The audience should always decide.

• 1:09:52Speaker 00

  Always, yeah, exactly.

• 1:09:54Billy Corgan?

  It's the craziest thing. That's what I'm saying. It's like the people at the label that don't like music.

• 1:09:58Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:09:58Billy Corgan?

  It's like.

• 1:10:00Speaker 00

  I can't really relate to those people at all. If you're just, if you're not, if you're working in music and you have no interest or passion.

• 1:10:07Billy Corgan?

  Or, or gatekeepers who want to keep people away from.

• 1:10:09Speaker 01

  I can't relate to it. It's literally the antithesis of how we are and what we do and what our mission is.

• 1:10:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:17Billy Corgan?

  Yes, but I think that's why we're all still standing.

• 1:10:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:19Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:10:20Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:10:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:21Billy Corgan?

  I had a music journalist from Chicago at one point publicly apologized to me and say, the way you were so, talking about me, the way you were so overtly honest about the music business in the nineties, I thought you were, to use the wrestling term, I thought you were working. I thought you were working the crowd as a contrarian, like you were trying, you were trying to be against it even though you were for it. And he goes, now I understand you were actually the only honest broker of the whole generation.

• 1:10:45Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:10:46Billy Corgan?

  Everybody else was working the system that existed. They got the goatee, they got the flannel shirt, they did whatever they had to do to get across the line, while you, the ultimate weirdo, sort of stood there the whole time and said it's all bull.

• 1:10:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Billy Corgan?

  And now it sort of works in my favor because I've been standing there the whole time saying, hey, by the way, this is how it really works.

• 1:11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:11:04Billy Corgan?

  So I'm happy to talk to you about it because you have the, you have your perspective from the other side of the stream, which is why it's so valuable. Couple more questions. Is there really a distinction anymore between indie and, and the rest? Or is it all kind of homogenous and everybody's after the same pile? I think the, the current statistics are there 200,000 songs released a day. Is that, do you know that statistic?

• 1:11:27Speaker 00

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  I think it's growing by the day.

• 1:11:28Billy Corgan?

  Oh, I'm sure. And now with AI, I mean, who the hell knows? It's gonna be a, a S show, as my son says.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  I think, I think, I think genres in general are almost like, um, I mean, like, they're still important to kind of give a general idea, but they definitely do not hold the weight that they used to have.

• 1:11:45Billy Corgan?

  How would you, like, okay, what genre does Youngblood fit into?

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  He's rock, alternative.

• 1:11:50Billy Corgan?

  What, what genre does Sombra fit into?

• 1:11:54Speaker 01

  Alternative.

• 1:11:55Billy Corgan?

  Right. But both of them have traditional pop skills.

• 1:11:59Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:00Billy Corgan?

  Now, in the world that we grew up in.

• 1:12:02Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:12:02Billy Corgan?

  Right? That ability meant you could attack the charts.

• 1:12:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:07Billy Corgan?

  But look at the charts in, in 2026, there's almost no alternative or rock representation.

• 1:12:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, it's.

• 1:12:14Billy Corgan?

  Can you explain that to me?

• 1:12:17Speaker 00

  I find it disturbing.

• 1:12:18Billy Corgan?

  As somebody who works in radio still.

• 1:12:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I feel like Sombra and Lola Young and, and Youngblood are, are actually crossing over.

• 1:12:26Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:27Billy Corgan?

  Right. Okay. But I'm, maybe I'm being more broad in general, or I'm just complaining, but, but for the last 10 to 15 years, rock has not been represented in the charts at all.

• 1:12:36Speaker 01

  That's true.

• 1:12:37Billy Corgan?

  But bands go out and do massive amounts of tickets.

• 1:12:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:12:42Speaker 01

  Well, the live show is always going to be essential for rock and all.

• 1:12:44Billy Corgan?

  Okay. So here's the question, here's the better question I should ask from the first. What is it about mainstream pop radio that no longer embrace or hasn't?

• 1:12:53Speaker 01

  Hasn't.

• 1:12:54Billy Corgan?

  Hasn't for the last 10, 15 years embraced rock music when those artists are some of the biggest artists touring?

• 1:13:00Speaker 00

  I think it has a lot to do with like it getting into a situation where with all the consolidation that happened with with radio and those outlets sadly, I, I think it's just kind of, it takes some, you know, it takes someone taking serious chances. Because they believe in songs and artists. I think it's been, I, I think sometimes it comes down to like, and I've always felt this about any format. Lazy programming when it's like you're not willing to give something interestingly new a chance to break through. It used to be because you could do things regionally. I mean, because of like, oh, everything.

• 1:13:40Billy Corgan?

  Back to Dick Beyond.

• 1:13:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Billy Corgan?

  Like, like Dick Beyond, he had the region, as a regional powerhouse in Chicago, he had the ability to break records nationally.

• 1:13:49Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:13:49Billy Corgan?

  Imagine the power.

• 1:13:50Speaker 00

  So you started like the American breed, right? Like it did Benny Shape Me and you know, right? One of those guys ended up being a sound guy for six, three years, right? Like so, but there's all these cool sixties in Chicago.

• 1:14:01Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:01Speaker 00

  Perfect example of how much great stuff came out of there in that period.

• 1:14:04Billy Corgan?

  But it was that ability to break records regionally.

• 1:14:07Speaker 00

  Yeah. Regional breaking thing was so important and that was a big part of radio back in those days. I do, it does, you know, it does disappoint me to not see more, um, you know, rock and more variety in the top 40 charts. I think they kind of really represent, um, you know, uh, you know, it's a different, you know, I mean, it's, it's nothing against any of those artists at all because there's some really talented artists, but then there's also, but it just feels like there hasn't been that opportunity for crossover. And it reminds me of the thing we're talking about. We'd like the algorithm only feeding you back the same thing.

• 1:14:47Speaker 01

  Same thing.

• 1:14:47Speaker 00

  I think it's so dangerous.

• 1:14:49Speaker 01

  Right. It's so dangerous. It's very myopic. It's very myopic. I also think in order for rock to cross over, a lot of things have to happen. One, the songwriting and the song needs to be worthy. It needs to have more of a pop crossover appeal. So people who don't like rock will still like the song.

• 1:15:06Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  And two.

• 1:15:08Billy Corgan?

  Please finish, but I want to argue with you.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:15:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:11Speaker 01

  And two, I think for rock to cross over, it needs to be like, you guys don't get to choose, this is happening, whether you like it or not, and it has to be represented. And I think that.

• 1:15:21Billy Corgan?

  That I agree with.

• 1:15:21Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  And I think that for the first time in probably 20 years, since the early 2000s, that's happening again.

• 1:15:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay, good.

• 1:15:29Speaker 01

  There is a shift. There is a, and by the way, rock never went away. For those of us in the rock scene, I've been championing brand new artists for my whole life.

• 1:15:37Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  And really great ones. But they almost were not together as a community. I really do genuinely feel this movement globally of an exciting time for rock and alternative. It's, it's how diverse it is.

• 1:15:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  It's how there's, there's, there's solo superstar icons. There's bands that are amazing. There is bands of all colors and, and gender, and it's just so exciting. It's a very inclusive celebratory time with great artistry, actual artistry. I think that everyone's just going to be surprised by the next couple of years.

• 1:16:15Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so here's where I'm going to argue with you.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  Okay, do it.

• 1:16:18Billy Corgan?

  I think that the, the form has constituted, and I've fallen into this trap too, and I'm, I'm breaking my way out of it, is it, it, there needs to be a radical reworking of what a song is.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:16:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:16:30Billy Corgan?

  And as long as rock artists fall into the pop idiomatic formula that we've all inherited from above, we're going to basically still keep falling on the same rocks because the, the pop class is ruthless in its pursuit of perfection.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  Right, with, with 12 songwriters and, yeah.

• 1:16:49Billy Corgan?

  So my point is, it's going to take a genius or two.

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:16:52Billy Corgan?

  They're probably in their late teens, early twenties, to do a song that we haven't heard before. And I mean that literally and figuratively. It'll be like, this is so different, just like the first time we heard, uh, Welcome to the Jungle.

• 1:17:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:05Billy Corgan?

  Listen to that arrangement.

• 1:17:06Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:17:07Billy Corgan?

  Is that a pop arrangement? But it's a classic.

• 1:17:09Speaker 00

  It's so, yeah, absolutely.

• 1:17:11Billy Corgan?

  So I, I, you know.

• 1:17:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:12Billy Corgan?

  I think that's what's going to happen. I think it's going to be this radical reworking and the rules will be like.

• 1:17:18Speaker 01

  And with that, we're on the same page.

• 1:17:19Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:19Speaker 01

  I think it's actually going to take artistry, artists who are autonomous. The fact that Sombra writes it all himself and produces it himself is unbelievable.

• 1:17:30Billy Corgan?

  But that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:17:31Speaker 01

  Right. I'm saying, and we need more of it.

• 1:17:33Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  But that's why.

• 1:17:34Billy Corgan?

  It's only going to take one to kick the door open.

• 1:17:36Speaker 01

  But I think that Youngblood and Sombra are two great examples of at leading the charge. But I do believe they're not the only ones. I think that there's a lot coming.

• 1:17:45Billy Corgan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  In there.

• 1:17:46Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely. No, we can feel it's gonna happen.

• 1:17:48Speaker 01

  It's so exciting.

• 1:17:49Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  It is.

• 1:17:50Billy Corgan?

  It is very exciting.

• 1:17:50Speaker 00

  And it's great when there's, like you were saying, it's a great young artist who might be in high school now, but it's about to, you know.

• 1:17:56Speaker 01

  I want to say one more thing, and it actually goes along with the death of the gatekeeper. These artists that are coming up that we're talking about are not only unbelievably talented and autonomous. They are creating their own worlds.

• 1:18:08Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  You know, even from a business standpoint.

• 1:18:10Billy Corgan?

  Absolutely.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  And again, look at Youngblood again. I know we keep talking about him, but he's, he warrants talking about.

• 1:18:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, I think selfishly, I think that's why a lot of those artists name check me. Because they recognize that that's what I did.

• 1:18:22Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:22Billy Corgan?

  And they see the power and strength of that. And they want, when they meet me, they want to ask me, just like when I met Youngblood. They want to understand, like, why did you do what you did?

• 1:18:30Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:18:31Billy Corgan?

  Because to them, it feels contemporary in its world building.

• 1:18:34Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:35Billy Corgan?

  So it's a great compliment to me that they, that they saw that or felt that.

• 1:18:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:18:39Billy Corgan?

  Because when I did it at the time, it seemed very strange. Of course, I stole it from Bowie and the Beatles.

• 1:18:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:45Billy Corgan?

  That's what I thought they did.

• 1:18:46Speaker 00

  They were the greatest.

• 1:18:47Billy Corgan?

  Sure, start at the top, but my point is, is I was like, I used to say to the band, why can't we be seven different bands?

• 1:18:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:53Billy Corgan?

  Why do we just have to be one band?

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:18:56Billy Corgan?

  But when we were, we criticized in the nineties, we would be criticized for not being the same band.

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Right, that's true.

• 1:19:01Speaker 00

  But what I loved about it, but the records told a different story.

• 1:19:03Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:19:04Speaker 00

  You know what I mean?

• 1:19:05Billy Corgan?

  Because again, you would, you would understand the historical antecedent. I'm not claiming anything original here.

• 1:19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah, but it was great though.

• 1:19:11Billy Corgan?

  I mean, even melancholy was a reaction to the wall.

• 1:19:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:19:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:19:15Billy Corgan?

  You know, and it wasn't like I just said, I'm going to do a concept record and I said, I want to do that.

• 1:19:18Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:19:19Billy Corgan?

  Can we do that?

• 1:19:20Speaker 01

  But I think it's important to wear your influence on your sleeve. Of course, you know, I mean, if you talk to Robert Plant or they love the blues or you. Know the Beatles of Buddy Holly. I think it's important. I think that to, to, to say you, you can't be influenced by, and just one more thing about Youngblood. I want to talk about Blood Fest.

• 1:19:38Billy Corgan?

  Sure.

• 1:19:38Speaker 01

  Like that's what back to that business, creating your own world. He's created his own festival.

• 1:19:43Billy Corgan?

  Oh, he's, he's, he's in it to win. That one's in it to win it.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I know. But it's unique. But I think that it's sort of setting the tone.

• 1:19:50Billy Corgan?

  The only thing I would say in, in, in slight pushback is when the gatekeeper class rose before they destroyed themselves in, in the early 2000s. They basically, it was like hit squads. You can't talk about these bands. You can't cite these influences. So my influence in, in alternative culture disappeared for a good 15 years. I mean, there's a, there's a book, there's a.

• 1:20:12Speaker 01

  I know. My chem gives you a lot of love. Gerard pays his.

• 1:20:15Billy Corgan?

  Well, they, they started the band because of us.

• 1:20:17Speaker 01

  Right. That's what I'm saying.

• 1:20:18Billy Corgan?

  That's a fact. Yeah. But go find a bunch of other bands from their generation that behind the scenes would give me love, but would never talk about the band in public. Cause they were scared of the retaliation of the, of the, of the critical class.

• 1:20:28Speaker 00

  Yeah, but they were definitely so many.

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  Of course.

• 1:20:31Billy Corgan?

  Oh, God, I love those guys.

• 1:20:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, so many artists.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  So many artists.

• 1:20:35Billy Corgan?

  We say they're my, they're my sons.

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:20:37Speaker 00

  Oh, I love them. They're good guys.

• 1:20:39Billy Corgan?

  They were so kind. They brought me out at the end of their show, their stadium show in Chicago.

• 1:20:43Speaker 00

  That's great.

• 1:20:44Speaker 01

  That was special.

• 1:20:45Billy Corgan?

  Are you kidding? Playing with them, playing Bullet with Butterflecks on stage at Soldier Field, 65,000.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  How did that feel for you? I mean, that's beautiful. Yeah.

• 1:20:52Speaker 00

  I love those guys. They're, I mean, obviously they're from New Jersey.

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  They're one of the great bands.

• 1:20:55Speaker 00

  And they're such a great band. And it's just them, I mean, they're bigger than ever.

• 1:21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are.

• 1:21:00Speaker 00

  Which is a beautiful thing.

• 1:21:01Billy Corgan?

  Okay. And how are they bigger than ever? Because they represent something that's not easily replicated and doesn't fit comfortably in the pop world.

• 1:21:09Speaker 00

  Yeah. It's the same reason that people are like, literally, why do Smiths still have an influence? Or, you know.

• 1:21:15Billy Corgan?

  The Smiths are bigger than ever.

• 1:21:16Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:21:17Billy Corgan?

  And they haven't played a show in, oh, you wouldn't know how many, what was the last time the Smiths played a show?

• 1:21:20Speaker 00

  So it was 1986.

• 1:21:22Billy Corgan?

  Did you see them during the Meat is Murder tour?

• 1:21:24Speaker 00

  I did three times. Yeah.

• 1:21:25Billy Corgan?

  I saw him once.

• 1:21:26Speaker 00

  Yeah. I mean, it was, and it wasn't like I was trying to outdo anybody, but I'm going to tell you this. He was just such a fan that I saw him two nights at the Beacon and one night at, in Philly.

• 1:21:36Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, they were great.

• 1:21:37Speaker 00

  At the Tower.

• 1:21:38Billy Corgan?

  Did you feel that?

• 1:21:39Speaker 00

  They were amazing alive and they were incredible.

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  I'm traumatized. I never want to see them.

• 1:21:43Speaker 00

  So I went and saw Johnny the other night. He told me a great story about some stuff that like is happening around that tour. So

• 1:21:49Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:50Speaker 00

  I just, I'm grateful we got to see them.

• 1:21:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:52Speaker 00

  Because so many people did not.

• 1:21:54Speaker 01

  I know. It's traumatizing.

• 1:21:55Speaker 00

  You know, because I was very sad when they broke up and my oldest daughter Jessica had just been born. So like I literally had tickets for this strange ways tour, but was going to have to give them up because she was sick. And she was, you know, a baby. So I was like, I was like,

• 1:22:10Speaker 01

  Bring her.

• 1:22:10Speaker 00

  And then they split up.

• 1:22:11Billy Corgan?

  Okay. Last question. Thank you for indulging me. Love you both.

• 1:22:16Billy Corgan?

  Let's, uh, do you agree grunge is having a second act?

• 1:22:19Speaker 01

  Hundred percent. So excited.

• 1:22:21Billy Corgan?

  I can feel it.

• 1:22:22Speaker 01

  I'm so pumped. Oh, it's happening.

• 1:22:24Speaker 00

  I love it so much. I mean, obviously I'm so grateful to have been a part of the history with everybody and be there documenting it. I mean, a part and it's amazing as you know, just to have, have not only witnessed it and just love the songs that have come out. And that's what's so great about with Alison, loving that from that moment and also being with what you did at Spotify, kickstarting, you know, for other, other bands. I think it's great. I just, and I love that era because I love full albums, but, and there was so much stuff song for song.

• 1:22:58Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  With you, with Soundgarden, with Alison Chains, you know, Pearl Jam. I love those.

• 1:23:03Speaker 01

  So I'm paying it back now because I do artist development, you know, and Return to Dust is one of my bands.

• 1:23:09Billy Corgan?

  And we, because of your influence, we took them on my solo tour.

• 1:23:13Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:23:13Billy Corgan?

  And they were great.

• 1:23:14Speaker 01

  And for me to be able to, to, to connect those dots and make that connection, I feel like I'm doing my part, you know?

• 1:23:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:20Speaker 01

  Return to Dust is just one of those bands. These, these guys are in their young, young twenties. Actually Sebastian just turned like 18. He's like literally a teenager and they love it, you know, and they didn't get to grow up with it. Does it matter? It's not, I think it's even cooler that they like it because it's not popular. They didn't grow up with it and they just love it.

• 1:23:39Billy Corgan?

  We were, we were all in on the sixties bands, right?

• 1:23:41Speaker 00

  We were. We love them.

• 1:23:42Billy Corgan?

  We didn't see them. So it was our, our way of paying tribute was to bring the music forward.

• 1:23:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:23:47Billy Corgan?

  That's the closest thing we could do is to, is to play their songs or give, give them.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  And that's what we're seeing now.

• 1:23:52Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:23:52Speaker 00

  I mean, when, when you cover something like, you know, like. Girl named Sandoz by.

• 1:23:56Billy Corgan?

  By the Animals.

• 1:23:57Speaker 00

  Animals, which was like this cool animal song like as a B-side.

• 1:24:01Billy Corgan?

  By the way, not just a cool animal song. It was a song about LSD.

• 1:24:04Speaker 00

  Yes, it was.

• 1:24:05Billy Corgan?

  Sandoz was the lab that made legal LSD.

• 1:24:07Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:24:08Billy Corgan?

  And Eric Burden wrote a song to the chemical company that made LSD. A girl named Sandoz.

• 1:24:14Speaker 00

  Yes, which is amazing. And I put that in the system, as Casey said.

• 1:24:18Billy Corgan?

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:24:19Speaker 00

  I got it. It's fun to play.

• 1:24:20Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:24:21Speaker 00

  It's just so cool. But that's what I mean, like loving that. All that 60s music, right? And 70s music and everything that we all, you know, just incredible.

• 1:24:29Billy Corgan?

  So what is, okay, I want to say one thing about Return to Dustin. I have one little final thing. My memory is I watched them a lot during the tour. Mostly would watch them during sound checks so I could at least watch them play as if not, I wasn't going to go out in the crowd. But um, one nice thing at the last show of the tour, I, we, they came into my dressing room and I talked to him for about a half an hour. And I said, here's where you're going. Here's what's going to happen. And it was so great to give them whatever I could because I want them and like a lot of other bands in that generation, I really want them to succeed.

• 1:25:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, we, we need them to succeed. We want them to do well because.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  They deserve it.

• 1:25:05Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it's also just beautiful because it's, it becomes really about that experience again. So I'm really happy about

• 1:25:13Billy Corgan?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  the, the new rock artists that are.

• 1:25:15Billy Corgan?

  What I like to say is that because the mainstream pushed rock, alt-rock back to the edges of the culture, we've had to get tough again.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:25:25Billy Corgan?

  We've had to go back to who do we trust?

• 1:25:27Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:27Billy Corgan?

  What really matters?

• 1:25:29Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:25:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:30Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean? Like, so whether it's mentoring or quietly supporting people or giving a little bit of advice. That's why the mainstream pop world is not prepared for what's coming. It's going to be a massacre.

• 1:25:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:42Billy Corgan?

  It's going to be a massacre.

• 1:25:43Speaker 01

  Authenticity, right?

• 1:25:45Billy Corgan?

  The collective wins always.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Authenticity prevails.

• 1:25:47Billy Corgan?

  Well, you can't fake authenticity.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  Exactly right.

• 1:25:50Speaker 00

  And people could see right through it.

• 1:25:51Speaker 01

  And people are sick of the polish. You know, we're hungry for the imperfections and that's what is happening now.

• 1:25:57Billy Corgan?

  There's something beautiful about the aspirational aspects of pop when someone who grew up just like we did decides to kind of. Almost become like a god or goddess, you know what I mean?

• 1:26:07Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:08Billy Corgan?

  But at some point, it just runs out of gas.

• 1:26:10Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:11Billy Corgan?

  Yeah. It's like, it's like seeing too many airbrushed photos. At some point, you're like, what do they really look like? What do they really sound like? Who, who, who is this person?

• 1:26:19Speaker 01

  I also think in a time where everything is so filtered and AI, I think that people are craving human, to be more human, to sound more human.

• 1:26:28Billy Corgan?

  Look at Amy on the sniffers.

• 1:26:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:26:29Billy Corgan?

  Look at, look at Amy.

• 1:26:30Speaker 01

  That visceral primal human energy.

• 1:26:33Billy Corgan?

  The real deal, and she really is that person.

• 1:26:36Speaker 01

  Cause that's where that connection is.

• 1:26:37Billy Corgan?

  Yes.

• 1:26:38Speaker 01

  That's what makes us human.

• 1:26:39Billy Corgan?

  What people don't understand and will never understand the rock business is that when you see one of you on stage.

• 1:26:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:44Billy Corgan?

  That is the moment.

• 1:26:45Speaker 00

  It's the greatest thing in the world. I mean, that's what it's always been about.

• 1:26:48Billy Corgan?

  When I saw Metallica.

• 1:26:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:50Billy Corgan?

  At the Aragon Ballroom circa 1985.

• 1:26:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:53Billy Corgan?

  And they were two years older than I was.

• 1:26:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:26:57Billy Corgan?

  And they look like the stoner guy next to me in class at high school.

• 1:27:00Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:00Billy Corgan?

  It was like, how is that band on stage?

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 1:27:04Billy Corgan?

  In a sold out Aragon Ballroom, playing Ride the Lightning.

• 1:27:08Speaker 00

  Yeah. And it was like, this can be done. I can.

• 1:27:11Billy Corgan?

  Well, that's the inspiration. That's the aspect. Okay. So last question. What does grunge second act look like to you? What do you, what do you foresee? It's a time capsule.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  You mean like?

• 1:27:22Billy Corgan?

  Lay, lay your bets. What happens here?

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  You mean like the impact, the type of bands?

• 1:27:26Billy Corgan?

  You want me to be more specific?

• 1:27:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:29Billy Corgan?

  Okay. One thing I've been on about lately, um, probably to the point of repetition is we've only known the baby boomer culture. Everything we've ever done is within relation to the baby boomer culture. It was their TV shows. It's been their magazines. It's been their, the way they orient information, top 50 lists and all this, right? It's all gonna go.

• 1:27:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:27:52Billy Corgan?

  It's almost hard for us to understand as people who grew up in the shadow of the baby boomers, that we will finally have our own culture.

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:27:59Billy Corgan?

  Without them standing over the shoulder saying, yeah, but the Beatles were better. Yeah, but the Stones were better. Yeah, but Neil Young was better. And, and, and I wouldn't argue. But it's not relevant to the sense of, yes, that's true. These artists were great, but I still need my, my music, my people.

• 1:28:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:14Billy Corgan?

  And I think Gen X is finally going to have its sort of moment of like, and you saw it with Melissa Oftemar's book coming out.

• 1:28:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:20Billy Corgan?

  In many ways, it's the first shot across the bow of the power of these untold stories.

• 1:28:24Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:25Billy Corgan?

  Think about it, it's been 30 years since the peak of grunge and most of the stories haven't been told.

• 1:28:29Speaker 00

  They really haven't.

• 1:28:30Billy Corgan?

  And the ones that have been told have been told usually through the prisons of baby boomers.

• 1:28:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:28:34Billy Corgan?

  So they tell you the value of those bands. They tell you.

• 1:28:37Speaker 00

  Well, we knew the value from, from day one, and I think that's a great thing. I think it's the fact that bands like Return to Dust, bands that are being inspired by the bands from that era and that period is a beautiful thing.

• 1:28:50Billy Corgan?

  Okay, so what's the second act look like? I'm going to put you on the block. You gotta take a guess. What's it look like?

• 1:28:56Speaker 01

  Well, I don't think it's going to be the same way as it was the first time. I think it's going to be really exciting and fresh and new, but I think it's also just one part of the new landscape because there's so many exciting new artists coming.

• 1:29:09Billy Corgan?

  But are we going to see, are we going to see Gen X movies again? Are we going to, because think about it, because I had a meeting with the studio, gosh, almost 10 years ago. Think about it, since the singles movie.

• 1:29:20Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:20Billy Corgan?

  Okay, what's the other great grunge era movie?

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Are you saying like it's time now?

• 1:29:27Billy Corgan?

  It's been 30 plus years.

• 1:29:29Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean as far as the impact of the grunge revival in general?

• 1:29:32Billy Corgan?

  You go in every other generation, there's like 14 rock movies.

• 1:29:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:29:37Billy Corgan?

  Okay, what's the other Gen X rock movie?

• 1:29:41Speaker 00

  I mean, singles was, and the soundtrack just speaks.

• 1:29:43Billy Corgan?

  No, but I'm saying, why wasn't there another one?

• 1:29:47Billy Corgan?

  Like there's talk about doing a Kurt Cobain biopic, right?

• 1:29:50Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:29:50Billy Corgan?

  I'm saying, doesn't it strike you as odd? That there was all this commerce, all this energy, all this groundbreaking stuff, gender bending, people coming to the marketplace that previously had been excluded from the stage, all of it.

• 1:30:04Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:06Billy Corgan?

  You said you were empowered by seeing women on stage that you could relate to. Where are those stories?

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:30:12Billy Corgan?

  You see what I'm saying? It's like, it's a setup question because there is no answer. The answer is there isn't one.

• 1:30:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, and it's true. And it's, well, it's funny because I still love that soundtrack. It's one of the best. There's so many good soundtracks, but that one is so important. I just played Drowned by You off.

• 1:30:28Billy Corgan?

  And who got me on that soundtrack? Chris Cornell.

• 1:30:31Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 1:30:33Speaker 00

  Yeah, and Seasons is one of the greatest.

• 1:30:35Speaker 01

  Seasons is the best, but single soundtrack, which by the way, is my favorite soundtrack ever. It came out before Grunge, you know? It actually was part of the reason why Grunge.

• 1:30:43Billy Corgan?

  But you understand what I'm harping on.

• 1:30:44Speaker 01

  What you're saying.

• 1:30:45Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:30:46Billy Corgan?

  Where are the books? Where are the movies? Where are the Netflix series? Like, you understand? We've been ignored for a good 15 years.

• 1:30:54Speaker 01

  Well, I'll tell you what, you know, we're naming, you know, Return to Dust, Untitled. There's a plethora of these bands that are all Grunge inspired. Now, we'll see how they do. They're all really good. Um, we'll see what happens. It could be a revival in general as an homage to, you know, the influences.

• 1:31:12Billy Corgan?

  Well, in a perfect world, I think you see a whole crop of bands doing what they do. And they're emotionally related.

• 1:31:19Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:31:20Billy Corgan?

  If they're musically related, that's fine. We stole plenty from the 60s. But we were after something completely different than, say, Jefferson Airplane. I think that's pretty obvious.

• 1:31:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:31:28Billy Corgan?

  Even though we like Jefferson Airplane. But I think what you'll see is the cultural review that's long overdue. Like Courtney's about to have a big moment.

• 1:31:37Speaker 01

  I know, I'm excited. I'm really excited.

• 1:31:39Speaker 00

  I've heard my four songs from her new record, and it's great.

• 1:31:41Billy Corgan?

  Right, with Will Sargent. Will Sargent playing on the record.

• 1:31:45Speaker 00

  We're echoing the Buddy Men fans. We love Will. And, but also, you know, you heard duets with Michael Stipe and Billie Joe Armstrong. And then some of her original songs. There's like one called, am I allowed to curse here or what?

• 1:31:56Billy Corgan?

  You'll be bleaked out.

• 1:31:58Speaker 00

  You'll cut it, right, yeah. I, well, I don't say, but there's one that, the title is pretty amazing. And I think I'll just leave it to people's imagination and just wait. But I actually heard four songs. I thought they sounded amazing.

• 1:32:10Billy Corgan?

  I got roped into working on the record, but that's a different story.

• 1:32:12Speaker 00

  Yeah, because I love her.

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  I'm glad, you know, I love your work with Courtney.

• 1:32:16Billy Corgan?

  Well, to be fair, I offered for years to work with her and she kept blowing me off. And so. She presented the record when it was done and then now I've been part of the like that's the the back end.

• 1:32:25Speaker 01

  I see.

• 1:32:26Billy Corgan?

  What needs to be fixed.

• 1:32:27Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:28Billy Corgan?

  Which is totally fine.

• 1:32:28Speaker 00

  I mean, obviously, Celebrity Skin was, you know.

• 1:32:30Billy Corgan?

  Yeah, God bless.

• 1:32:33Speaker 01

  But to answer your question, I I do think grunge is really gonna have a real big impact and I do think there'll be some grunge homage cultural pieces. But what I also want to say is just think about how many great bands, you know, and you see the impact of Turnstile and Sleep Token and now President and The Warning and Echo Vandal and like Florence Road coming up. It is an exciting.

• 1:32:55Billy Corgan?

  Love it.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Time.

• 1:32:56Billy Corgan?

  I love it.

• 1:32:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:57Billy Corgan?

  Last snapshot and we'll go away.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:33:00Billy Corgan?

  Okay, you know, and you know, and I know that rock's about to like storm the castle again.

• 1:33:05Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:33:05Billy Corgan?

  We see it, we can feel it. I certainly see it. I mean, we just played 75,000 people in Mexico and it was 25 and under for 75,000.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  That's amazing.

• 1:33:14Speaker 00

  That's what's happening. The audience is.

• 1:33:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:33:16Speaker 00

  Younger.

• 1:33:17Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:33:17Speaker 00

  Younger.

• 1:33:18Billy Corgan?

  Now, we all remember the moment. We all remember the moment where Jethro Tull, I love Jethro Tull, I'm sure you love Jethro.

• 1:33:25Speaker 00

  I saw him live.

• 1:33:26Billy Corgan?

  But when Jethro Tull won the Grammy and Metallica didn't and everybody pulled their hair out.

• 1:33:31Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:31Billy Corgan?

  Or the hair that you and I used to have out, right?

• 1:33:34Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:34Billy Corgan?

  And said, how is this possible that the hottest, most innovative new metal band in the world doesn't win the Metal Grammy in a band that's sort of past their prime?

• 1:33:44Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:33:44Billy Corgan?

  You know what I mean?

• 1:33:45Speaker 00

  Definitely.

• 1:33:45Billy Corgan?

  Uh, uh, does and that became a huge sort of talking point. Okay?

• 1:33:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:49Billy Corgan?

  I'm gonna give you the new version of that.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:33:51Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:52Billy Corgan?

  Okay, I'm watching the Black Sabbath tribute.

• 1:33:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:55Billy Corgan?

  I like Post Malone. He did an incredible job.

• 1:33:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:33:58Billy Corgan?

  Who's up there on this stage? Slash is up there, Duff's up there. Uh, who else was up there? Andrew Watt was up there. Who else?

• 1:34:05Speaker 00

  Nuno.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  Nuno.

• 1:34:06Speaker 00

  You know.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  Nuno Batencourt.

• 1:34:07Billy Corgan?

  Nuno was up there and who was playing drums?

• 1:34:09Speaker 01

  Tom. Oh.

• 1:34:09Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:11Speaker 01

  Chad?

• 1:34:12Billy Corgan?

  Chad, Chad Smith.

• 1:34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:13Billy Corgan?

  Okay, but who's in the crowd? Watching Young Blood.

• 1:34:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:19Billy Corgan?

  You got the hottest young rock.

• 1:34:21Speaker 01

  Right, right, right.

• 1:34:21Billy Corgan?

  Superstar in the world.

• 1:34:22Speaker 01

  Part of that, yeah.

• 1:34:23Billy Corgan?

  Who just won a Grammy for doing a Sabbath song.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:27Billy Corgan?

  Watching.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  That was, that was weird. That was an oversight.

• 1:34:31Billy Corgan?

  That's what I'm saying. I'm not saying it's not exactly the same, but I'm saying it's like that.

• 1:34:35Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:34:36Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:36Billy Corgan?

  That world is out of touch with what's actually happening on the street.

• 1:34:39Speaker 00

  Yeah, cuz he should have definitely been part of that performance.

• 1:34:42Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:34:43Billy Corgan?

  Okay.

• 1:34:44Speaker 00

  Cuz he was great.

• 1:34:45Billy Corgan?

  So when I, so when I ask you, why isn't, why isn't mainstream radio playing rock artists? There's another example. That world is out of touch with what's happening.

• 1:34:54Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:54Billy Corgan?

  So they're, they're in for a big shock.

• 1:34:56Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:34:57Billy Corgan?

  Cuz you know, when the rock kids storm the castle, it's gonna get ugly.

• 1:35:01Speaker 01

  I think rock needs to get to a place where it's undeniable, and I think we're getting there again. I think that's where I see it going.

• 1:35:07Billy Corgan?

  That's where you get into the messianic stuff of you just need one to figure it out.

• 1:35:11Speaker 00

  Absolutely.

• 1:35:12Billy Corgan?

  You need a Bob Marley or Kurt Cobain.

• 1:35:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:15Billy Corgan?

  Or a John Lennon.

• 1:35:17Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:17Billy Corgan?

  To go, I've got the song just for you.

• 1:35:19Speaker 00

  Yeah, we're just undeniable.

• 1:35:22Billy Corgan?

  Even Alora Nero, right? There's, there's those brilliant minds that sort of see something that doesn't exist.

• 1:35:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:28Billy Corgan?

  And, and they go, I'm gonna do that.

• 1:35:30Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:35:31Billy Corgan?

  So God bless. Great talking to both of you.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.