Selects: Night Trap: The Video Game Failure that Changed the Industry

In the early 90s a video game was released that changed the industry, despite poor sales and bad game play. That game was Night Trap. In this classic episode Chuck and Josh present that story. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:04Josh Clark?

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  Hosted by Andrew Stratton, these perspectives highlight that life is more than a moment, a condition, or a tough day. Living with a rare disease can be challenging, but it does not define the Voices of VivGart. In these episodes, they share their stories, from diagnosis to working with their care team on their treatment plan. Listen to Voices of VivGart on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everybody, it's me, Josh, and for this week's select, I've chosen our 2021 episode on Night Trap, the video game, one of those overlooked pieces of pop culture history about one of those unfortunate pieces of technology that emerged during a sea change, which made it utterly out of date the moment it was born.

• 1:28Josh Clark?

  It's a great story about a not at all great video game and I hope you enjoy it.

• 1:37Speaker 00

  Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.

• 1:47Josh Clark?

  Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark and there's Charles W. Chuck Bryant over there. There's Jerry over there being silly and this is Stuff You Should Know.

• 1:58Speaker 02

  Video obscure, lost video game episode.

• 2:05Josh Clark?

  How did you hear about this? This is your request.

• 2:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, so Night Trap is the game that we're talking about. And I heard about this from watching the Netflix documentary series High Score.

• 2:16Josh Clark?

  Did you Netflix and chill while you were watching that?

• 2:19Speaker 02

  Jerk. No, I Netflixed by myself and chilled because Emily wasn't watching this.

• 2:25Josh Clark?

  That's a different thing.

• 2:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's a different thing.

• 2:27Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 2:29Speaker 02

  This was a documentary series on Netflix, I think six parts that covered the history of video games.

• 2:36Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 2:37Speaker 02

  I can recommend it in one way in that it was a very light kind of fun watch. But it is by no means comprehensive and a little goofy at times in how they handled some stuff.

• 2:47Josh Clark?

  On Night Trap specifically or like in general?

• 2:49Speaker 02

  The whole series.

• 2:50Josh Clark?

  I gotcha.

• 2:51Speaker 02

  But it was fine. And it's, you know, if you're from a certain generation and in the mood for like five plus hours of a bit of a nostalgia kick, you could do worse things. But it's not great.

• 3:03Josh Clark?

  Have you ever seen that documentary, I think it's King of Kong?

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Oh, sure.

• 3:06Josh Clark?

  Oh, man, that is one of the best documentaries ever made. I haven't seen it in years. I gotta see it again.

• 3:12Speaker 02

  It's great. I think our old buddy Josh Bierman might have written the original story that that was based on.

• 3:17Josh Clark?

  Oh, I'm not surprised to hear that.

• 3:19Speaker 02

  He had something to do with that. But Night Trap, I learned about because in episode five, they covered when video games started becoming violent. So Mortal Kombat obviously factored in heavily in that episode.

• 3:31Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 3:31Speaker 02

  And then this game called Night Trap, there's another game I do want to cover on a shorty, by the way. One of the first LGBTQ games ever that was really interesting and had a cool story.

• 3:42Josh Clark?

  What the heck is it called?

• 3:44Speaker 02

  I can't remember now. I saw this a couple of months ago, so it's been a while. Oh, what was it? Can't remember, but it was, it's great and that'll make for a good shorty.

• 3:52Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 3:52Speaker 02

  But a really cool story behind it. But this is Night Trap. Which figured in as the game that kind of brought about, along with Mortal Kombat, but was really central in forming what ended up being the, uh, the ratings board for video games.

• 4:07Josh Clark?

  I mean, that's, that's almost like understating it. Like this one game.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 4:13Josh Clark?

  Paired with Mortal Kombat, basically led directly to the creation of that.

• 4:17Speaker 02

  Yeah. So that's really why it's notable. The other thing that made it notable, and we'll get into all this, was that it was a, a live action, as in they shot, you know, a, a little movie.

• 4:29Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 4:29Speaker 02

  And.

• 4:30Josh Clark?

  That you controlled.

• 4:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, that you sort of controlled.

• 4:33Josh Clark?

  You could conceivably theoretically hypothetically control.

• 4:37Speaker 02

  Cause it wasn't a great game, but it lives in infamy because of every, cause it's a really cool story, I think in the end.

• 4:43Josh Clark?

  It is a pretty cool story. Um, and the whole thing starts actually with a play, um, from the, I think it was written in 1981 by a playwright named, um, John, oh, what's his last name?

• 4:56Speaker 02

  Krasank.

• 4:57Josh Clark?

  Okay. I wanna say.

• 4:58Speaker 02

  Or Krasonk.

• 4:59Josh Clark?

  I want, or Krasanch. Shit. You don't think so?

• 5:04Speaker 02

  I don't know, maybe.

• 5:05Josh Clark?

  Well, regardless, he, uh, he wrote a few episodes of Due South.

• 5:08Speaker 02

  What was that?

• 5:09Josh Clark?

  It was like a show about a Canadian mountie, I think.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Oh, alright. Yeah, he wrote this and it was, if you've been to Sleep No More in New York, you may have the play Tamara to thank because it is a lot like.

• 5:24Josh Clark?

  Is it like that?

• 5:24Speaker 02

  The concept of Sleep No More.

• 5:26Josh Clark?

  As far as I know, this was the one that like broke that ground.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  I think so. And the ground they broke it, it's about the painter, uh, Tamara de Limpica, who I've never heard of.

• 5:36Josh Clark?

  She was a Polish painter who lived in Italy in the roaring twenties.

• 5:40Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 5:40Josh Clark?

  When, um, the fascists were starting to take power and she took no guff from them.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  No guff.

• 5:45Josh Clark?

  Hedonistic, um, amazing art deco painter.

• 5:49Speaker 02

  Oh, nice.

• 5:49Josh Clark?

  Art deco portraitist, basically.

• 5:52Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 5:52Josh Clark?

  So her work's really interesting. I didn't know anything about her. I'd never heard of her until this too, but I looked her up. She seemed pretty cool.

• 5:59Speaker 02

  But this is a play about her where it is set on a multi-floor building. There are scenes taking place at the same, uh, same time in multiple rooms. And as an audience member, you can move from one room to the other, missing out on some stuff, seeing some stuff, interacting. I mean, it's Sleep No More.

• 6:15Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 6:15Speaker 02

  They, I don't know if they just totally ripped it off or if they said, hey, it's been, you know, 30 years. Who's gonna remember Tamara?

• 6:24Josh Clark?

  Right, I think it was like they broke that ground and once you break that ground, you're going to have people following your wake.

• 6:29Speaker 02

  There's probably been other stuff that did this, but Sleep No More, I think, just got so much attention in New York for its run. I think it might still be going or maybe coming back after the pandemic.

• 6:38Josh Clark?

  I would like to see that. I would love to see Tamara too, but it was, it ran in New York, but it started at a Toronto art festival, I think.

• 6:50Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 6:51Josh Clark?

  And then some producers set it up in LA and that's where it had its longest run from about the mid 80s to the 90s. They had this, this just kept going and going and going. I was reading an LA Times article on it. But the reason that it factors into this is because it's basically the basis for this game Night Trap where there are different things going on in different rooms and you kind of cycle toggle between the different rooms through security cameras in these rooms.

• 7:22Speaker 02

  Right.

• 7:23Josh Clark?

  To see what's going on. And while you're doing that, you're missing stuff that's happening in other rooms in this game. And if you miss too much stuff, you lose. If you catch enough stuff and you do everything right and press all the correct buttons, you win. But that's, that's basically how it applies. It's like this, this almost an homage to this play in video game form, but it's full motion video, meaning it's like a film or TV show that you vaguely control or put better you interact with.

• 7:54Speaker 02

  Yeah. And the idea of the game, and we'll get a little bit more into the development of it in a minute, but it is basically like a, a party happening at this house. Young, like coed types, like sorority girls, maybe.

• 8:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 8:08Speaker 02

  It's, it's very sort of titillating and that was one of the big deals.

• 8:12Josh Clark?

  A little bit. I think this was overstated.

• 8:15Speaker 02

  For the time.

• 8:16Josh Clark?

  Even for the time, I wouldn't say. I mean, You Got Married With Children was like 10 times more titillating than this. This is very tame, I think.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  Well, you know, obviously, part of the controversy comes from assaults on women in the game, understandably. But again, we'll get to that. It is even tame compared to a lot of the stuff that was out at the time. But what's going on in the game is they are these pseudo-vampires called augers that are the bad people in this game. And Jim Riley, who conceived of this game, when he had the idea of, I think he was watching security camera, a security camera screen with all these different rooms, and it hit him like, what a great idea. And then he saw this play, and he said, we can actually do something like this.

• 9:04Speaker 02

  Like, what if a user and a game player could go into any of these views that they want? And if they're missing something, they're missing something that might be important. But they're in control of the game.

• 9:15Josh Clark?

  Right. And I mean, that's...

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Or the story, rather.

• 9:19Josh Clark?

  Right. But again, I think you really pointed out something important. That was the concept. In the actuality, they kind of missed the mark a little bit.

• 9:29Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:30Josh Clark?

  So with the game, it was originally designed as part of a platform called Control Vision.

• 9:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:39Josh Clark?

  And I think internally, it was called Nemo, N-E-M-O. And it was being created by a company called Axilon. And Axilon was actually a Nolan...

• 9:47Speaker 02

  Such an 80s, like, video game company name.

• 9:50Josh Clark?

  But it was a Nolan Bushnell company. After Atari, he founded Axilon, among others. I think he created five companies at the same time in parallel, using this incubator that he had created. And the developers at Axilon started creating a full-motion video.

• 10:09Speaker 02

  VHS-based, we should point out.

• 10:11Josh Clark?

  Yes, on VHS. And to get from one place to another, rather than... This was the breakthrough thing. This was the thing that made this work. And they did get it to work. But using VHS tapes, you could toggle between stuff in virtually real time.

• 10:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:28Josh Clark?

  Without the VHS player having to rewind or fast forward.

• 10:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 10:33Josh Clark?

  Which would have really just kind of put the kibosh on the whole thing. But instead, because of the interlacing that video uses, they could actually choose what field to show at what time and basically switch between them.

• 10:50Speaker 02

  Which was, I mean, it looks archaic, but it's a remarkable technology at the time to be able to do that.

• 10:55Josh Clark?

  Right. Yeah, it's still mind blowing. Like, I'm like, I vaguely understand how this actually works. But the fact that they actually got this to work and had a proof of concept going, enough that Hasbro was like, sold. That was a big deal.

• 11:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this was 85. One of their designers was the legendary Tom Crane, who designed Pitfall, one of my favorite all-time games on the Atari.

• 11:20Josh Clark?

  That's a good one.

• 11:20Speaker 02

  But it was a good team, and they went, apparently, to these hammer performances. They were also inspired by Dragon's Lair. Do you remember that game?

• 11:27Josh Clark?

  I do. I was never into it, but I remember watching it and just kind of...

• 11:31Speaker 02

  It looked cool. I mean, it was an animation game where it was fully animated and used LaserDisc to project this animated footage. So it looked awesome, but it was just, it wasn't that great. The gameplay wasn't great.

• 11:44Josh Clark?

  No, but it followed a story. There was a story that was happening, and then every once in a while, there was something you had to do to move the story along.

• 11:52Speaker 02

  Right.

• 11:53Josh Clark?

  As part of the game, and if you didn't do it right, the dragon like turned you into ash or something like that, right?

• 11:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, but you're not actually controlling the player, which was the big difference in these games from the regular game.

• 12:03Josh Clark?

  You're creating a sequence. Like, you're doing this and then sitting back, and then hopefully, the thing you're hoping to happen, happens. Now, the thing that differentiates that from Night Trap is that there was no coherent story. While you were off doing something that you were supposed to be doing to win the game.

• 12:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:23Josh Clark?

  The story kept going on over here.

• 12:25Speaker 02

  So you can't follow a storyline that way?

• 12:27Josh Clark?

  No, which is a big deal. That was a big differentiator between it and Dragon's Lair.

• 12:31Speaker 02

  All right, well, let's take a little break here. That's a good setup, I think. And we'll come back and get more into Night Trap, right after this.

• 12:50Speaker 03

  First thought is like, wow, how are we going to do all this?

• 12:52Josh Clark?

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• 13:42Josh Clark?

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• 15:55Speaker 02

  All right, so I mentioned the Augers. We need to explain a little bit about this game and what it was supposed to be and what it ended up being. Because in the Netflix documentary, Jim Riley basically is like, well, the first thing, they created a demo called Scene of the Crime.

• 16:10Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 16:11Speaker 02

  And it was a detective game. And Hasbro liked it, like I said. But they had a big problem because the original idea that Jim had was to have ninjas. And he's like, it'd be great. These ninjas come in, they got throwing stars, they got weapons, and they're doing all this stuff. And you can control it, and it's super cool. And Hasbro was like, wait a minute. We can't have what we call reproducible violence. So anything that a kid, like kids love throwing stars, and we can't show ninjas throwing throwing stars into people. Because a kid will go and do that. You can't have a knife, because a kid can go get a knife out of a drawer. It's got to be something that a kid cannot reproduce.

• 16:51Josh Clark?

  So, so they said, okay, well, how about what if the ninjas turn out to be, and I'm sorry, I know ninja is the plural of ninja. Sorry, everyone. What if they turn out to be vampires?

• 17:03Speaker 02

  Right.

• 17:04Josh Clark?

  And Hasbro said, I kinda like where you're going with this, but kids can still like bite people on the neck.

• 17:11Speaker 02

  I think it came the other way, though. I think that was a note from Hasbro.

• 17:15Josh Clark?

  Oh, was it?

• 17:16Speaker 02

  I'm pretty sure they were like, what if they were vampires?

• 17:18Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  And Jim Riley was like, okay, I guess I can do that.

• 17:22Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 17:22Speaker 02

  Biting people's necks. And then Hasbro was like, can't do that, because kids can bite necks, too.

• 17:27Josh Clark?

  So what they found, and this is a great metaphor for the Night Trap overall.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 17:34Josh Clark?

  What the ninja originally, or what they turned out to be in the end, were loping vampires who used what looked like a Ghostbusters proton pack.

• 17:45Speaker 02

  Sort of, yeah.

• 17:45Josh Clark?

  With a collar of the kind that Arnold Schwarzenegger was wearing at the beginning of Running Man.

• 17:51Speaker 02

  You know, like a clamp, sort of.

• 17:53Josh Clark?

  Yes, on the end, and that is what they used to draw the blood from the hapless teens, who you were in charge of protecting as Night Trap.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, so what Hasbro did was they noted it to death and neutered it to death, because they said, he even was like, all right, I can do vampires that can run around and hurt people. And they said, no, no, they can't even run around. It's too scary if they're fast.

• 18:20Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 18:20Speaker 02

  So they came up with augers who, in the game, they are described as vampires who had been half-bled and left to die. So they are not quite vampires, but they aren't human either. And that makes them lopy and lumbery.

• 18:36Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  Instead of being able to move fast. And if you see them, they look like they're wearing garbage bags, they're lumbering around, they're drawing the blood using a trocar, is what the name of that thing was.

• 18:48Josh Clark?

  Oh, is it? Okay, because it was definitely its own thing.

• 18:51Speaker 02

  It was its own thing. And it's funny, in the documentary, Jim Riley was like, In the end, he said, this trocar, which, you know, it didn't show it explicitly. It showed the clamp going around the neck and this little drill inside of a shaft start. And then sort of moving and then blood being drawn, but it doesn't show like going in the neck or anything.

• 19:10Josh Clark?

  No.

• 19:11Speaker 02

  But he said, what they ended up with, he said, to me was something far creepier than a vampire biting someone's neck.

• 19:16Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 19:17Speaker 02

  But they were like, it's not reproducible though, so it's fine.

• 19:19Josh Clark?

  And it's also, it's weird that Hasbro is so fixated on not including reproducible violence. Because apparently, they saw Night Trap as a way to interest adults.

• 19:32Speaker 02

  Right.

• 19:32Josh Clark?

  Because they had apparently found out during focus group testing of Scene of the Crime, I believe, that the parents who were in the room or were part of the focus group were saying like, I really kind of like this. It's like a TV show, but I get to control it.

• 19:47Speaker 02

  Cause it looked like something that they understood.

• 19:49Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 19:50Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 19:50Josh Clark?

  And so Hasbro was like, oh, okay, this has been like a kid's thing up to this point. Maybe we can finally crack into the adult market with this stuff. So it's weird that they, that they kidified it to death. If they were trying to use it to capture adults. But maybe they were like, it has to go both ways in case adults don't like it.

• 20:11Speaker 02

  Well, I think in the documentary, they make the point that Hasbro was, I think the adults were looming out there as a possibility, but they were like, adults will never play video games. So what they really wanted until they grow up and then continue to play video games.

• 20:25Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 20:26Speaker 02

  What they really were after was a teenage market, which didn't fully exist at this point.

• 20:30Josh Clark?

  Oh, gotcha.

• 20:31Speaker 02

  Uh, like an old, like 16 and 17 year old boys, which is why they put sorority girls in like a nightie at a slumber party.

• 20:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 20:40Speaker 02

  Was in all in an effort to sort of titillate, you know, people like me.

• 20:44Josh Clark?

  Right. And it worked like a charm.

• 20:46Speaker 02

  I had never heard of it back then.

• 20:48Josh Clark?

  Cause you just, you would play Night Trap in Netflix and chill by yourself.

• 20:53Speaker 02

  So they actually had to shoot this like a movie, you know, they shot it in Culver City on a soundstage. And what they would do back then for, and you know, there were more full motion games of the time. And you would try and cast one recognizable face among this cast to sort of, they called it the anchor, to like, all right, well, this has got so and so in it. And who did they cast for Night Trap?

• 21:16Josh Clark?

  Dana Plato from Different Strokes, Kimberly.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  That's right. Kimberly, who passed away very tragically.

• 21:22Josh Clark?

  Man, I was reading about her life. She had a hard, sad life, man.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Very tragic story.

• 21:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it is. It's very sad. And they actually went back and ruled her death as suicide later. Did you know that?

• 21:33Speaker 02

  I don't know if I knew that.

• 21:34Josh Clark?

  Yeah, she died by suicide ultimately. Cause she overdosed on like-

• 21:37Speaker 02

  Via drugs or?

• 21:38Josh Clark?

  Yeah, on soma, I believe, which is like a generic lore tab.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  Interesting.

• 21:45Josh Clark?

  Which I think you really have to try, like, I don't think that's an accidental thing, which is probably why they did that. But it was at a family reunion in Oklahoma.

• 21:55Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 21:56Josh Clark?

  Which I'm like, God, man, that's, that's just a sad ending. And her son actually died by suicide as well later on.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  Really? I think I knew that, like, not super long ago, right?

• 22:04Josh Clark?

  Yeah, like, yeah, in the 2010s.

• 22:07Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, man, very sad. But yeah, Dana Plato was cast as that anchor. She played Kelly, who was a secret agent who had infiltrated the house.

• 22:18Josh Clark?

  She was undercover.

• 22:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, she's undercover and she would talk right to camera and say things like, you've got to get to the other room because the augers are after whoever, Mary.

• 22:26Josh Clark?

  Help her.

• 22:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, go help her.

• 22:28Josh Clark?

  Yeah, and we should say also, so the, the group of crime fighters that she was a part of was called SCAT.

• 22:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:35Josh Clark?

  The Special Control Attack Team, SCAT. And then, I don't know if we also said, so the people who owned the house had invited this group of teens that included undercover Dana Plato, Kelly, who I, which I saw admittedly on Wikipedia. This is, this is a great example of Night Trap being Night Trap. In the, in the credits at the end, Kelly's name is spelled with a Y on the end. In the players, the user's hand guide.

• 23:07Speaker 02

  Deny.

• 23:08Josh Clark?

  Deny. That's Night Trap for you right there. But the family that invited the kids, the teenage girls out for a weekend at their house, are actually themselves vampires with teeth and everything. They're not augers, they're actually vampires.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  And they don't attack people.

• 23:24Josh Clark?

  No, they brought them there for the augers.

• 23:27Speaker 02

  Right, right, right, to source their blood, I guess.

• 23:29Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 02

  There is a pretty funny scene in it when, did you watch any of it?

• 23:33Josh Clark?

  I watched the whole thing. I watched, I think Grumpy Gamers did like a playthrough.

• 23:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, they have a full thing.

• 23:39Josh Clark?

  I watched their stuff too, and yeah, I've watched a lot of Night Trap stuff.

• 23:43Speaker 02

  The best part is when they're explaining in the game what the augers are and the woman says, you know, "It's a vampire who's been blah, blah, blah." And one of the scat guys is in the background and he goes, "You've got to be jiving me."

• 23:55Josh Clark?

  I didn't see that.

• 23:56Speaker 02

  Oh, it was great. It was like, was this game made in 1989 or 1973? It was really confusing, like what era it was.

• 24:05Josh Clark?

  So you said it was shot on a soundstage in Culver City?

• 24:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:09Josh Clark?

  And it took like 30 days almost.

• 24:13Speaker 02

  They had to shoot a ton of stuff.

• 24:14Josh Clark?

  Yes, because it was like a 250-page script, which is incredibly long.

• 24:19Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 24:20Josh Clark?

  Ed, who helped us out with this one, he points out that a two-hour movie might have 120-page script.

• 24:26Speaker 02

  It's about a minute per page is the rule of thumb.

• 24:29Josh Clark?

  This is 250 pages for a video game that was not very good.

• 24:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:34Josh Clark?

  They didn't have a lot of dialogue, but there were a lot of different outcomes that could happen in one, just one particular scene.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 24:41Josh Clark?

  So if you shot a scene, you had to shoot it multiple times to get what you wanted.

• 24:45Speaker 02

  Right.

• 24:45Josh Clark?

  And then you had to shoot those multiple times, multiple times for each outcome.

• 24:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, and we should say that the violence in the game, like we said, is suggestive for the augers. You don't really see anything. The only real violence is when the augers are dispatched of, but it is very much a wily coyote, Bugs Bunny sort of thing.

• 25:05Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it's the definition of cartoonish violence.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, like there will be, a Murphy bed will flip them out of a window, or they'll just, whoa, like fall through a trap door.

• 25:14Josh Clark?

  The stairs, very, like, one of the things if they're coming down the stairs, you can trap them by collapsing the stairs and they slide down.

• 25:21Speaker 02

  That's a cartoon.

• 25:22Josh Clark?

  When they fall into the trap, like a smoke machine pours smoke out of it. It's impossible

• 25:28Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:28Josh Clark?

  that they weren't going for cartoonish violence. There's no way

• 25:32Speaker 02

  Oh, of course.

• 25:33Josh Clark?

  that the producers and director

• 25:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:35Josh Clark?

  were trying to be like scary in any way, shape or form.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  But it was shot by Don Burgess, who was nominated for an Oscar less than a decade after Night Trap for Forrest Gump. So they had a real team. It wasn't just, you know, they didn't, you know, say, all right, well, let's go out in the valley and use some, like a porn crew.

• 25:57Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 25:58Speaker 02

  And just do this thing. Like, they had a real crew.

• 26:00Josh Clark?

  No, and apparently Hasbro spent, depending on who you ask, at least a million dollars on this.

• 26:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, they said one five in the documentary. So they put some money into it, and it is not apparent on the screen. The sets look terrible. The doorways, I don't know if you noticed, but any doorway, they didn't build the door down to the floor. They built the door down to like a one-foot-tall stepover. So anytime someone opens a door, they step over this like

• 26:30Josh Clark?

  I didn't notice that.

• 26:30Speaker 02

  one-foot-tall like wooden set.

• 26:32Josh Clark?

  That's awesome. I mean, the set is, it's basically like they could have repurposed it for Growing Pains or Family Ties or something like that.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  Or no, they probably would have said like, mm, this doesn't look good.

• 26:40Josh Clark?

  Right, maybe Small Wonder. I think they used it for Small Wonder. How about that?

• 26:45Speaker 02

  There is no nudity, we should point out, but again, was never going to be kid-friendly, but also when you, when you, we'll get to the court stuff. When you hear how it's described by these senators.

• 26:57Josh Clark?

  It's so over the top.

• 26:58Speaker 02

  It's so over the top.

• 26:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Should we take a break?

• 27:03Speaker 02

  You don't want to take a break, do you?

• 27:04Josh Clark?

  No, I'm excited and I'm ready to keep going. Let's take a break.

• 27:07Speaker 02

  All right, well, I guess we should take a break by saying that Hasbro dumped the game. This is a nice cliffhanger.

• 27:14Josh Clark?

  Oh, okay.

• 27:15Speaker 02

  Hasbro dumped the game.

• 27:16Josh Clark?

  Wait, wait. Well, Hasbro dumped the game or not, Chuck?

• 27:19Speaker 02

  Okay, we'll find out right after this.

• 27:36Josh Clark?

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• 28:00Speaker 04

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• 28:13Josh Clark?

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• 28:29Josh Clark?

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• 28:52Josh Clark?

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• 29:07Speaker 04

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• 29:32Josh Clark?

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• 29:50Speaker 04

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• 30:05Josh Clark?

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• 30:17Speaker 04

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• 30:49Josh Clark?

  Okay Chuck, it's cliffhanger answer time.

• 30:53Speaker 04

  Hasbro dumped the game.

• 30:54Josh Clark?

  Oh my gosh.

• 30:54Speaker 04

  Because, A, it wasn't that great, but the big reason was because CD-ROM technology started up, and they were like, "We've got VHS technology, and we sunk a million-five into this turkey. Like, let's just dump it." And that should have been the end of it.

• 31:08Josh Clark?

  Not just Night Trap, but the whole Control Vision thing, that Night-- the whole platform that Night Trap was just gonna be a game on.

• 31:15Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 31:15Josh Clark?

  Totally gone.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  CD-ROM killed it.

• 31:17Josh Clark?

  Hasbro said, "Forget it." The thing is, the people who worked on designing this game said, "No, no, no. No, Hasbro's being short-sighted here."

• 31:25Speaker 04

  It's too good.

• 31:26Josh Clark?

  This game in particular, maybe Control Vision is dead. Granted, the VHS thing, we're gonna just forget about that. But this game is too groundbreaking to just let die. So they actually went to Hasbro and said, "How much will you sell us the footage, the code, the whole shebang for Night Trap for?" And the designers actually bought the game from Hasbro, and took it and founded their own company, Digital Pictures.

• 31:51Speaker 04

  Do you know how much they sold it for?

• 31:52Josh Clark?

  No, I couldn't find it.

• 31:53Speaker 04

  I couldn't find it either.

• 31:55Josh Clark?

  I would guess peanuts, basically.

• 31:57Speaker 02

  Right.

• 31:57Josh Clark?

  They probably were like, I don't ever want to hear the words Night or Trap together again. Get it out of here. But these designers, developers, directors, writers, everybody got together, formed digital pictures, and bought it and started developing Night Trap ironically for CD-ROM, which is the very type of media, yeah, that killed it in the first place.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, but Jim's telling on the documentary, I don't know if they were already going CD-ROM or if it was initiated by Sega, but he got a call, he said, out of the blue from Sega, who had their gaming system at the time, Sega Genesis, and then Sega CD was an add-on system featuring this new CD-ROM technology, and he said, they got a call, they said, hey, you want to develop this for CD-ROM? And he probably got a good laugh out about that and the irony, and then said, sure, because Night Trap must live.

• 32:56Josh Clark?

  Yes, this guy is dedicated to Night Trap living. If there's one thing that he wants to keep alive in the world, it is Night Trap.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 33:05Josh Clark?

  So they started developing it for CD-ROM. It was a step up, for sure, from what I can tell. Like, the graphics worked a lot better. The problem is, is this was 1992?

• 33:18Speaker 02

  1992 is when it was finally released as a CD-ROM game, yeah.

• 33:22Josh Clark?

  They had shot all this footage in the late 80s.

• 33:25Speaker 02

  But it looked like the late 70s.

• 33:27Josh Clark?

  There was a big difference between, say, 1988 and 1992, style-wise. It was apparent, visually apparent and immediately apparent to anybody, say, of video game-playing age.

• 33:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, agreed.

• 33:39Josh Clark?

  That was a big strike against Night Trap to begin with. But probably the biggest strike of all was that it wasn't a highly playable game.

• 33:47Speaker 02

  It was not a good game.

• 33:49Josh Clark?

  And it probably would have just kind of faded away. Like, it sold, I guess, enough that it qualified as like a not a disaster. They at least did more than break even. But it probably would have just fallen into the dustbin of history had it not been for Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut and Senator Herb Cole of Wisconsin, a couple of Democrats, who created this crusade about violent video games in, I think, 1992.

• 34:19Josh Clark?

  Three.

• 34:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so this very much mirrored, if you listen to our Satanic Panic episodes and the PMRC and music labeling.

• 34:28Josh Clark?

  MPAA.

• 34:29Speaker 02

  MPAA, like this was all the time when everyone was saying, hey, listen, we need to start at least labeling this stuff so parents know what their kids are doing. And just watch a little bit, you know, there's all kinds, it was in the Netflix documentary, but there's all sorts of stuff on YouTube about these hearings where they're talking about the disgusting trash and the filth and the hyper violence and it's like, it's really not that violent.

• 34:53Josh Clark?

  So, so here's the thing, they were, they went after Mortal Kombat.

• 34:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, which was super violent.

• 34:59Josh Clark?

  It really was.

• 34:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 35:00Josh Clark?

  And they went after Night Trap, which was, again, cartoonish. Not a drop of blood spills from a person's body.

• 35:07Speaker 02

  Right. But it had ladies in lingerie.

• 35:10Josh Clark?

  One.

• 35:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 35:11Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'm not defending any kind of violence against women.

• 35:15Speaker 02

  Oh, of course not.

• 35:16Josh Clark?

  I'm not defending objectifying women. But Night Trap was unfairly railroaded.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 35:24Josh Clark?

  Because, for some reason, I think probably because it was, it was film, it was people, like the people were controlling people.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  That was the difference because there was, there were a hundred exploitation movies and horror movies by this point.

• 35:42Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 35:42Speaker 02

  Two hundred.

• 35:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:43Speaker 02

  Three hundred.

• 35:44Josh Clark?

  It was on.

• 35:45Speaker 02

  That were a thousand times worse than this.

• 35:47Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Speaker 02

  But the fact that you were controlling, yet they never said, and they make a big point about this in the documentary, like, you weren't doing the violence, like, the whole point of the game was to stop the augers.

• 35:59Josh Clark?

  That's, yes.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Like, you weren't the person doing the augering.

• 36:02Josh Clark?

  You're preventing the violence.

• 36:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, I guess that's why they called them augers, because it was kind of like an auger.

• 36:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 36:06Speaker 02

  The tool was.

• 36:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's what I guessed.

• 36:08Speaker 02

  Well, crowbar, towbar, what was it called? Crowcar?

• 36:11Josh Clark?

  Crowcar, yeah. Crowbar.

• 36:13Speaker 02

  But, yeah, and they never, I mean, he, Jim Riley was like, they clearly never even played the game.

• 36:17Josh Clark?

  Yeah, no, they were talking about.

• 36:20Speaker 02

  The cover of the thing was lurid, they didn't like the cover of the box.

• 36:23Josh Clark?

  Yeah, they, yeah, they definitely hadn't played the game. It was just impossible from what they were saying happens in the game. And the big one was, like you were saying, that it, it. It let players carry out sexual violence against women. No, you do the opposite of that.

• 36:40Speaker 02

  Right.

• 36:40Josh Clark?

  There's violence that is carried out by the augers if you don't do it right. If you've, if you're not good at the game, if you lose. Yes, exactly.

• 36:48Speaker 02

  But even then, like, even in the most disturbing scene, which was the one with the lady and the, and the nightie looking in the mirror.

• 36:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 36:55Speaker 02

  The augers come in behind her and it's for sure creepy looking at first. But you know, then they get out the, the croak car. I can't even remember.

• 37:03Josh Clark?

  Choke car.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  Choke car. And she's like, ah, ah. And it's like the worst B movie. And then they just sort of drag her over the threshold of one of those doors.

• 37:11Josh Clark?

  I would say gently escorted.

• 37:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 37:14Josh Clark?

  Through the door.

• 37:14Speaker 02

  Like you don't see any of the violence even.

• 37:16Josh Clark?

  No.

• 37:17Speaker 02

  It's all just suggested.

• 37:18Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 37:18Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 37:19Josh Clark?

  But again, Night Trap got lumped in with Mortal Kombat and because of this, because it was very clear that the writing was on the wall, the media has a really great track record of saying, oh God, if we don't come up with a rating system ourself.

• 37:34Speaker 02

  Right.

• 37:34Josh Clark?

  Congress is going to impose it on us. And so they came up with the E S R B, the Entertainment Software Rating Board.

• 37:43Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 37:44Josh Clark?

  It was a industry created, self-imposed rating system that was brought about in large part because of Night Trap.

• 37:53Speaker 02

  Right. So Sega pulls the game eventually. It became really popular because of these senatorial hearings.

• 38:00Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Which is what always happens.

• 38:01Josh Clark?

  Yes, that's exactly right. It was starting to fade away. It would have been lost to history. And then the senators came in and were like, go buy that game.

• 38:09Speaker 02

  Kids wanted to play it.

• 38:10Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 38:10Speaker 02

  But Sega did eventually pull it. Digital Pictures re-released it as their own distributor and rated it M for mature. And that should have, that should have also been the end of it, right?

• 38:26Josh Clark?

  Yeah, it should have just kind of went away, especially after Sega pulled it because it got pulled from KB Toys and Toys R Us because it kids, but like you're saying, it was still around. And then when Sega pulled it, it was like you couldn't find it anywhere.

• 38:38Speaker 02

  Right.

• 38:38Josh Clark?

  That should have been the end. And then in 2014, Tom Riley, Jim Riley?

• 38:44Speaker 02

  Jim.

• 38:44Josh Clark?

  Uh, Jim Riley started a Kickstarter.

• 38:49Josh Clark?

  And said, "We're gonna resurrect Night Trap. All we need is $330,000. People are gonna go crazy for this."

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Cause it had a cult following.

• 38:57Josh Clark?

  Yeah. It's gonna be the greatest Kickstarter in the history of Kickstarters. And it was not the greatest Kickstarter ever. It was a really, really bad Kickstarter. They had a lot of criticism, skepticism, and ultimately only garnered, I think, about $40,000 when they were after 330.

• 39:15Speaker 02

  And that was in 2014.

• 39:16Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so that obviously was the end of Night Trap, right?

• 39:19Speaker 02

  That was not the end of Night Trap. The bad game that refused to die. In 2016, there was a video on YouTube that showed someone playing Night Trap on their telephone, on their smartphone. And so, I don't know if it was Jim Riley or one of the original devs saw it and was like, "What is going on? You can't play Night Trap on a smartphone." Cause it was never developed, that technology, unless that smartphone is playing a CD that I don't know about in the background. And they got in touch with the person. His name was Tyler Hoagel. And he was a mobile game programmer who followed, was a fan of the original, like, in a cult fan way.

• 39:57Josh Clark?

  That's a deep cut at that time.

• 39:59Speaker 02

  Super deep cut. And then basically said, "I'm gonna get a playable version, hack together for smartphones," and did it like semi-successfully.

• 40:08Josh Clark?

  Yeah, so he basically created this just on his own. And then, once the video surfaced and the original developers, Jim Riley and some of the others, got in touch with them, they said, "Here, man, here's, we lost the code years ago. No one has any idea where it is. But we do have original 35mm footage, which is time stamped, which is really critical because you have to wait, as we'll talk about how to play it in a second. The timing is everything between the video and the player's controls." So with the timestamps, Tyler Hoagel was able to basically create a new, modern 25th anniversary edition that just is actually kind of a,

• 40:52Josh Clark?

  as far as Night Trap goes, is the best Night Trap that there could possibly be.

• 40:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was the 2017 25th edition. Rated T for teens this time.

• 41:02Josh Clark?

  Still preposterous.

• 41:04Speaker 02

  Which is funny. And apparently, you know, you said he lost the code, but he was like, "That's really easy. Like, I've got all this footage that's time stamped."

• 41:12Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:13Speaker 02

  He's like, "I can code this thing in my sleep," basically.

• 41:15Josh Clark?

  He basically did. So there is a 25th edition of Night Trap, which apparently Nintendo has a version of.

• 41:24Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting.

• 41:24Josh Clark?

  Which is kind of funny, because at the time of those Senate hearings in 1993, 94, Nintendo famously said they would never allow Night Trap on their platform. And they did.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  Yeah. And Nintendo is still sort of known as the more family-friendly

• 41:39Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 41:40Speaker 02

  unit.

• 41:40Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 41:41Speaker 02

  I think they even had a bloodless Mortal Kombat, if I'm not mistaken. Or maybe it was a setting.

• 41:46Josh Clark?

  I don't remember that. Oh, I think, yes, it rings a bell.

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Did you see the new Mortal Kombat movie? Did you have any interest?

• 41:52Josh Clark?

  I have seen zero Mortal Kombat movies.

• 41:54Speaker 02

  The new one just came out on HBO Max.

• 41:57Josh Clark?

  Is it good?

• 41:57Speaker 02

  It's pretty good. I mean, did you play the game?

• 41:59Josh Clark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:00Speaker 02

  Do you have nostalgia for the game?

• 42:01Josh Clark?

  Sure.

• 42:01Speaker 02

  Yeah, you should watch it.

• 42:02Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 42:03Speaker 02

  It's good enough. It looks good, and there's great fights, and then some nice Easter eggs, and...

• 42:07Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 42:08Speaker 02

  It's like the Mortal Kombat movie that should have been... Because they made one previously that wasn't that great.

• 42:13Josh Clark?

  Yeah, from the 90s.

• 42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, but this one looks... It's pretty cool.

• 42:16Josh Clark?

  Okay. Okay.

• 42:17Speaker 02

  You rip out spines and hearts and all the good stuff.

• 42:20Josh Clark?

  Okay, I'll go check it out.

• 42:21Speaker 02

  And the way they do the blood, it looks just like the game.

• 42:23Josh Clark?

  Is it rated T for teen?

• 42:25Speaker 02

  No, it's rated R.

• 42:26Josh Clark?

  Okay.

• 42:27Speaker 02

  Because it's a movie. But we mentioned that it wasn't that great of a game because of the gameplay. One of the biggest problems was that you've got all these stories going on in these different windows, but you can only kind of control one at a time. So when you're controlling one scene, other stuff is going on. And we mentioned, that makes it impossible to follow the actual story.

• 42:50Josh Clark?

  That's a big problem.

• 42:51Speaker 02

  So it suffers there.

• 42:52Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 42:53Speaker 02

  But there's also this thing where you have a red light, a green light, and a yellow light. And when these lights turn on, if it's the right color light, is when you engage the trap button.

• 43:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:04Speaker 02

  And that's when the auger will flip out the window, but it has to be timed right.

• 43:07Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 43:08Speaker 02

  And apparently, while you're in these other rooms, if you want to follow the story for a couple of minutes, they will change the codes. The color codes.

• 43:17Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  So if you're in another room, they'll be like, the code is now green.

• 43:21Josh Clark?

  Yes.

• 43:21Speaker 02

  And you don't know that because you're not watching it. So you go back and you think the code is red.

• 43:25Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 43:25Speaker 02

  And so you're losing the game.

• 43:27Josh Clark?

  Yeah, because you have to have the right security code activated to activate the traps.

• 43:31Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:32Josh Clark?

  Because this is the Martin's family's security cameras. The Martin family, the vampires, are the ones who created the traps.

• 43:38Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 43:38Josh Clark?

  You're just hacked into it thanks to your pals at SCAT.

• 43:41Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:42Josh Clark?

  Who you're basically freelancing for.

• 43:43Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 43:44Josh Clark?

  But when they change those codes, it doesn't show on screen.

• 43:48Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:49Josh Clark?

  The character tells another character to go down to the basement and change the code to orange.

• 43:54Speaker 02

  On a different screen that you may not be watching.

• 43:55Josh Clark?

  Yeah, in a different room that you can't hear or see or anything like that. Because you're in the living room and this conversation's happening in the kitchen.

• 44:02Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 44:03Josh Clark?

  That is not a thing where it's like, oh, that's a cool little, little.

• 44:06Speaker 02

  Little feature.

• 44:07Josh Clark?

  You know, that part of the gameplay. That is a maddening, yes, it's a bug, right. Um, so that's a big part, that's a big problem with it as well. And then also, um, you don't have to get a perfect, you don't have to play a perfect game to win.

• 44:21Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 44:22Josh Clark?

  But if, if any of the augers get any of the characters.

• 44:26Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 44:26Josh Clark?

  You lose.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  Right.

• 44:27Josh Clark?

  If too many augers start to accumulate, you lose.

• 44:30Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 44:30Josh Clark?

  And you get yelled at by the leader of SCAT. It's kind of funny. He gets really mad at you for screwing up. Um, but to win, it's, you're basically memorizing where to go win.

• 44:42Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 44:42Josh Clark?

  And it happens, especially toward the end, really quick. So like you'll, you know, set off a trap in one room and you have to go, remember what room you're supposed to go to, to get the trap set for the next auger.

• 44:54Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 44:54Josh Clark?

  Um, and it's not really fun. It gets really intense toward the end, but not necessarily fun.

• 44:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, I mean, hats off to the Grabster because he actually played this thing and tried to play it.

• 45:04Josh Clark?

  Right.

• 45:04Speaker 02

  Uh, which was more than I was willing to do, but I did watch the, the walkthroughs.

• 45:08Josh Clark?

  Did you see the Night Trap video or the lip sync video?

• 45:11Speaker 02

  I did not.

• 45:12Josh Clark?

  There's actually a theme song, Night Trap.

• 45:15Speaker 02

  Oh, right.

• 45:16Josh Clark?

  Look out behind you or something like that. That one of the characters does an air guitar tennis racket lip sync to.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 45:23Josh Clark?

  Dancing while the other characters have to watch them pretend like they're not mortified with embarrassment at seeing this. It's, it's really something.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  Oh, man, I kept waiting in the documentary for a big reveal that like George Clooney was one of the augers or something like that. But Dana Plato is about as, you know.

• 45:39Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:40Speaker 02

  A-list as it got at the time, which was probably C-list at the time.

• 45:43Josh Clark?

  Yeah.

• 45:45Josh Clark?

  You got anything else?

• 45:46Speaker 02

  I got nothing else. Night Trap, go seek it out.

• 45:49Josh Clark?

  Night Trap, look out behind you.

• 45:51Speaker 02

  That's right.

• 45:51Josh Clark?

  If you want to know more about Night Trap, you don't even have to play it. You can just go on YouTube and watch basically the movie. And even then, it's still generally incoherent. But since I said it's still generally incoherent, it's time for listener mail.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  I'm gonna call this speed reading trauma. Hey, guys, I should start with the obligatory long time first time. Finally reasoned email, and here I am. So hello, I didn't think that a short stuff on speed reading of all things would trigger my first email, but here we go. Halfway through the show, I was flooded with a vivid memory of speed reading in my elementary school gifted class. Speaking of other scams, this is in the early 90s. My teacher would drag a transparency with a printed passage. Oh, I kind of remember this, across an overhead projector at increasing speeds. And after each pass, we would take a comprehension test. I had no idea that this was a scam. I just thought it was a standard part of the curriculum that I wasn't very good at, and I felt terrible about it.

• 46:50Josh Clark?

  Aww.

• 46:50Speaker 02

  Then again, in my Louisiana public school curriculum, we also had to get a hunting license and shoot clay pigeons as part of Louisiana history in middle school.

• 46:59Josh Clark?

  I grew up shooting clay pigeons.

• 47:00Speaker 02

  Really? For school?

• 47:02Josh Clark?

  No.

• 47:02Speaker 02

  Oh, okay. I would like to try that.

• 47:05Josh Clark?

  It's cool.

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Skeet shooting?

• 47:06Josh Clark?

  Yeah, that's another way to put it.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Looks like fun. Just stand behind. That's the rule, right?

• 47:12Josh Clark?

  Basically.

• 47:13Speaker 02

  Anyway, thanks so much for the entertainment and education, edutainment. Especially this past year, I've often had you in my ear while I work from home to feel a little less solitary. That is from Kate Ellis Jensen in Boulder, Colorado.

• 47:25Josh Clark?

  Thanks a lot, Kate. That was a good email. Very sorry to set off the trauma, but I'm glad that it's passed. I'm presuming it passed.

• 47:32Speaker 02

  Yeah, I kind of remember that happening, but I certainly was not in a gifted class.

• 47:36Josh Clark?

  It doesn't sound like a very fun procedure. It kind of sounds like Ralph Fiennes revealing himself to Philip Seymour Hoffman in Red Dragon.

• 47:44Speaker 02

  Oh, spoiler.

• 47:46Josh Clark?

  So you see.

• 47:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 47:48Josh Clark?

  You know what I'm talking about?

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 47:49Josh Clark?

  We've talked about that recently.

• 47:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, the wheelchair and fire scene was very visceral.

• 47:54Josh Clark?

  Hilarious. But also really funny if you stop and think about it.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  Sure.

• 47:59Josh Clark?

  That movie just danced on the line and sometimes it went over.

• 48:03Speaker 02

  Agreed.

• 48:04Josh Clark?

  Well, if you want to know more about Red Dragon, oh, wait, I already said that stuff. If you want to get in touch with us like Kate did, then you can email us like Kate did at [email protected].

• 48:19Speaker 00

  Stuff You Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

• 48:35Josh Clark?

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• 50:06Speaker 00

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