#2328 - Luke Caverns

Luke Caverns is an explorer-anthropologist and YouTuber. www.youtube.com/@LukeCaverns Don’t miss out on all the action - Download the DraftKings app today! Sign-up using dkng.co/rogan or with my promo code ROGAN. GAMBLING PROBLEM? CALL 1-800-GAMBLER, (800) 327-5050 or visit gamblinghelplinema.org (MA). Call 877-8-HOPENY/text HOPENY (467369) (NY). Please Gamble Responsibly. 888-789-7777/visit ccpg.org (CT), or visit www.mdgamblinghelp.org (MD). 21+ and present in most states. (18+ DC/KY/NH/WY). Void in ONT/OR/NH. Eligibility restrictions apply. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino & Resort (KS). 1 per new customer. $5+ first-time bet req. Max. $300 issued as non-withdrawable Bonus Bets if your bet wins. Bonus Bets expire in 7 days (168 hours). Stake removed from payout. Terms: sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. Ends 6/22/25 at 11:59 PM ET. Sponsored by DK. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  The Joe Rogan Experience. Training by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day.

• 0:12Joe Rogan?

  What's up? How are you, man?

• 0:14Speaker 02

  Hey, man. How are you?

• 0:16Joe Rogan?

  It's a pleasure to meet you.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  It's a pleasure to meet you as well.

• 0:18Joe Rogan?

  I really enjoyed you on the Jesse Michaels Podcast, so I had to have you on.

• 0:21Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, thank you so much, man.

• 0:22Joe Rogan?

  I love it when young people know so much about ancient history. Like, how did you get started in this?

• 0:28Speaker 02

  Um, well, it's quite literally in my blood. Back in the late, well, I should say the 1890s, my family, they were cattle rustlers right here in the hill country, actually, maybe a little bit further, quite a bit further west of San Antonio.

• 0:45Joe Rogan?

  Damn, you come from a lot of criminals?

• 0:47Speaker 02

  Probably. Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of dark history in here. And so, they are, they're cattle rustlers that are out in Dryden, Texas, in Sanderson, Texas, and, I mean, right on the Rio Grande. And they were, that's how they made their money. They were fascinated, kind of like everybody, with finding gold, with finding lost Spanish treasure and, you know, Native American artifacts. So, they're living in this area called the Reagan Canyon, and I've seen it all over the place. If you look on, I think like the Smithsonian did something on the top 10 forgotten places in the United States, like the most remote areas of our country. And somewhere in there is Reagan Canyon.

• 1:28Speaker 02

  And so, out there, they developed this fascination for looking for lost Spanish gold. And, you know, there were bandits that would hide up in the hills, and they would sack Spanish caravans and drag the gold up into the hills to not get caught, to hopefully come back for it later. And the Spanish are out there mining for gold and everything. So, my family gets caught up in one of the biggest mysteries of Texas history. Like, if you were to look up, if you were to go to some bookstore, there's a popular one called "The Sons of Coronado," and it's like this legacy of people looking for Spanish gold. And somewhere in there, my family will be in there. And so, this started in the 1890s, and...

• 2:04Speaker 02

  It's this long saga of the gold being, the treasure being dragged to San Antonio and all these people get killed and only one of these four Reagan brothers makes it out. He gets involved in oil drilling out in East Texas. And then so my family moved out to East Texas and then his son was born, which is my grandfather. And then he continues this legacy of continuing his father's oil company, but then he also begins gold mining in New Mexico. And while he's out in New Mexico, he hears these legends of these seven lost Spanish gold mines. And because this local, there was a local police officer who was like a treasure hunter and he knew who my grandfather was and the story behind our family. He sought them out and they went off looking together. And I don't know how

• 2:47Speaker 02

  long it took them to find it, but he found the seven lost Spanish gold mines of New Mexico. And he opened up this company called Three Bells Mining and Milling Company. And that was open for about eight years. And they opened up these, they opened up these mines that go back to probably about the 1530s. So the Spaniards were up all the way in New Mexico in the 1530s and they were opening up Native American gold mines and expanding them. And so he found these gold mines that go hundreds of feet into the ground as this huge expansive gold mining operation. Well, somebody dies after a smelter explodes and the company goes under. They lose everything. My family falls into poverty. My dad's born

• 3:31Speaker 02

  during that time and my dad didn't really get to experience like all of that excitement. He had to spend his life climbing out of poverty. And, but he had this love for history. He had this, he had this love for, for American history really. And he instilled in me the importance of history growing up. And that fascination of exploration and, and kind of ancient American history, hearing those stories carried over into me during my childhood. And, and so I've just, I have always been fascinated by this. And I guess getting to where I am now, I was halfway through my marketing degree in college and I'm, I'm sitting on my bed in my dorm room with my girlfriend at the time who I'm married to now. And We watched the movie The Lost City of Z about Percy Fawcett.

• 4:16Speaker 02

  And something about that guy's journey reminded me so much of my family. Kind of reminded me of my dad, reminded me of my grandpa. And it changed something in me like that day, I could not ignore, I was probably 20 at the time. I could not ignore this love that I'd always had for ancient history, but you know, archaeologists are poor. You know, they're, they're, it's an extremely hard life and it's really hard on, on your family too. Um, and I just knew I had to, I had to create a life for myself where I could do what I loved because I had like a 1.7 GPA in college and I was not going to, to make it through my classes. And so I changed, I got a degree in cultural anthropology. Uh, I wrote, like, we had a mock thesis statement and I wrote it on the Amazon and the lost, uh, the lost civilizations and, you know, how they were wiped out from, uh, from, uh,

• 5:01Speaker 02

  Spanish influenza and, uh, yeah, so that's where I'm at today.

• 5:04Joe Rogan?

  Wow. I, I think everybody, when you start looking at the history of the human race and you start looking at the history of civilizations, everyone gets fascinated. Because we kind of like woke up in this life. You know, we didn't choose to be born during this timeline. We woke up in this timeline and we're like, uh, how did collectively we get here? And then you have this narrative of how collectively we got, we got here, but then you see there's holes in this narrative. And it's real weird. And then you find out about asteroid impacts and supervolcanoes and then there's people like Zahi Hawass who are in charge of telling you what they know and this is the only answer. And you're like, well, that guy's not right.

• 5:46Joe Rogan?

  And then you start like looking at guys like Graham Hancock, oh, why is everybody calling him a Nazi? Like, what the fuck? And then you start getting deep into the weeds in this stuff and you're like, wow, there's a lot of resentment from the gatekeepers. There's a lot of people that have been, um, they've been teaching a narrative and teaching it in school and they don't want anyone else teaching this stuff. They want to be the only people that can tell people what the history of the human race is. And unfortunately for them, There's too much other evidence. It's too weird. The whole picture is not settled. It's too strange and they keep finding new things all the time that throw a monkey wrench

• 6:30Joe Rogan?

  into the gears of the timeline of civilization.

• 6:33Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:33Joe Rogan?

  And so then, you know, you find out about Egypt and once, I mean, that was the big one for me. Once I found out about Egypt, not found out about it, but you're like really started exploring it.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  When you discovered every grain of sand.

• 6:46Joe Rogan?

  I discovered it all. I was there. I dug the hole. Um, when I, uh.

• 6:54Speaker 02

  That went about as well as I thought it would when you told me.

• 6:57Joe Rogan?

  I was hoping it was gonna go a little better, honestly.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  Well, he had a great opportunity to like win over the popular audience and come in and make a really good impression and he did exactly the opposite.

• 7:07Joe Rogan?

  Well, I think there was a bunch of problems there, ego being one of them, but another one being a language barrier.

• 7:11Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think so.

• 7:13Joe Rogan?

  Also years of battle. Like if you're in conflict with people about this very thing that we're talking about for years and years and years and these people that you're in conflict with keep winning.

• 7:23Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:24Joe Rogan?

  You know, like I remember there was an old documentary that was narrated by Charlton Heston. He was the host of it. I don't know if you ever saw this, The Mysteries of the Sphinx?

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Yes, I've seen it. I've seen it on YouTube. Yeah.

• 7:36Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I believe it was on television at the time and um, one of the things in that was they were trying to talk about Robert Schock's work with the water erosion around the temple of the Sphinx. And there was this very arrogant archaeologist, I don't remember his name, but I never, I remember he had a smackable face. He was just so arrogant. He's like, where is the evidence of this civilization that existed 10,000 years ago? Well, now we have evidence. Now, so like Gobekli Tepe threw a giant monkey wrench into the gears of this narrative and now they're forced to reckon with this. Like Zahi didn't

• 8:19Joe Rogan?

  even know what Gobekli Tepe was, which was insane.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  There was a lot of things that he wasn't familiar with, like Zep Tepe or the, it's either the Turin or the Turin Kings List, which talks about the predynastic, like semi-mythological kings going back, you know, tens of thousands of years.

• 8:37Joe Rogan?

  Yes.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  How do you?

• 8:39Joe Rogan?

  Not know that.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  You know, how was, was he the former head of the Ministry of Antiquities and Culture? How are you not familiar with this?

• 8:46Joe Rogan?

  Right. This episode is presented by Searchlight Pictures' Wild Horse 9. Shortly before Chile's 1973 coup, two CIA agents, played by John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, find their mission on Easter Island spiraling into a web of conspiracies, unexpected alliances, and chaos. Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Visible. As fall hits, we enter another season of change. Time to shift gears, drop the dead weight, and upgrade the wardrobe for the drop in temperature. But one thing that doesn't need to change? Your phone. The smartest upgrade this season isn't a new phone. It's a better wireless plan.

• 9:29Joe Rogan?

  Switch to Visible, the ultimate wireless hack. You get unlimited 5G data and unlimited hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 a month. That means keeping the phone you already have, ditching your overpriced phone bill, and pocketing some savings for yourself. All the perks of big wireless for half the cost. Switch today at visible.com. The Visible plan starts at just $25 a month. Or get the premium Visible Plus Pro Plan and save $10 on your first month with promo code ROGEN. Terms apply. See visible.com for plan features and network management details. I know how chaotic things get this time of the year.

• 10:13Joe Rogan?

  Between all the holidays, trying to train, and last-minute projects at work, it can seem impossible to get everything done. If you feel like you're running on fumes, AG1 Next Gen is an easy way to get the support that you need. With over 75 ingredients and five clinically-studied probiotic strains, it supports your energy and your immune health, among other things. And for extra boost, there's AG1 Pro. And that has the same next-gen formula, but with five grams of creatine, CAHMB, and zinc carnecine. Plus, both are NSF-certified.

• 10:54Speaker 02

  For sports, so you could feel good about what you're putting into your body, no matter how busy things get. Go to drinkag1.com/joe and for a limited time, get a free immunity bundle, including a bottle of omega-3 fish oil and vitamin D tossed in with your first subscription order of AG1 Next Gen or AG1 Pro, backed by a 90-day money-back guarantee. That's drinkag1.com/joe.

• 11:24Joe Rogan?

  Well, he just dismisses it.

• 11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:25Joe Rogan?

  But aggressively.

• 11:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:28Joe Rogan?

  Which is like, there's no way you know everything. There's, there's no way. And then it was also the, the data from the Italian scientists that were studying this tomography and this ability to look underground with satellite radar and also dismissing that. But then I brought up a temple of Osiris, I'm like, but they looked into that, like you could see it.

• 11:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 11:48Joe Rogan?

  They have like, they, they, they showed where the chambers are. They, it works. But this was only 50 feet in the ground, you know, like, okay.

• 11:57Speaker 02

  Do that pretty well.

• 11:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, how do you know how, how deep that stuff goes? If it works 50 feet?

• 12:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:01Joe Rogan?

  Who's to say it doesn't work 2 kilometers, like they're saying?

• 12:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was having a, a conversation with, uh, like my mentor, Dr. Ed Barnhart. He's, he's a friend of Graham. He was, he was one of Graham's guest experts on, uh, season two of Ancient Apocalypse, when he went to the Maya realm. He and I were talking this morning and he was like, he's like, you know, it's become a battle of like, who has this right to talk about these things, you know?

• 12:25Joe Rogan?

  Right, yes.

• 12:26Speaker 02

  Does, does the fact that I have a degree in anthropology, that's what gives me the right to have more of an opinion on somebody else? That's kind of what it, what it's become. And it's like, and it's like one side is accosting the other over their fascinations and their interests. And the fact that they're able to make a living from the things that they're fascinated about and talking about it.

• 12:46Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 12:47Speaker 02

  And, uh, and it feels like academia has become bitter because, you know, being in the academic world is a very rough and jaded place. And a lot of young aspiring archaeologists who existed, who maybe would have had an approach like me, but existed during this time where you could only... Have your pursuits if the university signed off on it, right? But now universities are like ideologically captured and every little thing that you do has to be aligned with the university. And so all of your fascinating ideas that you have in your mid twenties, you know, to your mid thirties when you're young and able to go off into the jungle and find something. They all get shut down by people who had their ideas shut down.

• 13:30Speaker 02

  But now it's like, it's the wild west where you can have somebody like me or whoever put together an expedition and, you know, I legally cannot start digging up the ground and excavating things, but I can go and document things and survey things on my own. Uh, you know, with local permission, whatever, but um.

• 13:47Joe Rogan?

  Can you legally dig things up in certain countries? If you get permission?

• 13:52Speaker 02

  Oh, well, I mean, yeah, if, if I got, if I got permission, but I mean, you would be, it would be next to impossible for me, for somebody like me to do that.

• 14:01Joe Rogan?

  And why would that be? What would be the hurdles?

• 14:03Speaker 02

  Oh, well, you would have the local universities there who also have their own, you know, high credentialed people who are gonna, you know, if I don't come in with a PhD, I'm never gonna go get a PhD. Uh, but if I don't come in with something like that, then I don't have the experience. I don't have, uh, you know, the authority to be able to do something like this and they would never trust me to carry out like a good excavation.

• 14:22Joe Rogan?

  Right, not damage anything.

• 14:23Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So they would never, they would never trust that.

• 14:25Joe Rogan?

  There's some reasonable, some reasonable explanations for why.

• 14:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, kind of.

• 14:32Joe Rogan?

  People have looted, you mean?

• 14:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:34Joe Rogan?

  Who knows how much of ancient Egypt is just gone? I mean, who knows?

• 14:39Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 14:40Joe Rogan?

  So many wealthy people actually ate mummies.

• 14:42Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 14:42Joe Rogan?

  You know, about that. They, they actually, like, for people listening, I did, you didn't mishear me. They ate mummies.

• 14:49Speaker 02

  Uh huh.

• 14:49Joe Rogan?

  They would bring them to these European aristocrats, would bring them to parties and people would consume the mummies.

• 15:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:00Joe Rogan?

  Which is just like.

• 15:03Joe Rogan?

  What were you guys drinking?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's gnarly, man.

• 15:06Joe Rogan?

  What kind of ditty party were you guys having over there where that was the idea?

• 15:09Speaker 02

  It's gnarly, man. Um, yeah, so much of Egypt is, is gone. And this is why I don't think that, uh, you know, like I love, I love the, the mystery of the ancient world and why I'm so baffled when people want to immediately shut anything down.

• 15:23Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 15:24Speaker 02

  Um, because of the amount of history that is lost to us is completely baffling, you know? Egypt has been getting looted, and we know for the last, uh, let's say 3,000 years at least, countries, uh, foreign nations have been coming in and raiding Egypt and taking the artifacts out. And so, you know, so much of the artifact, uh, so much of the artifact record is lost. And I think that the real problem is the confidence with which somebody like Zahi speaks. It's okay for you to have your, your perspective and the way that you view the ancient world based on the data that's been available to you. It's okay to have your opinions, but when you're so confident about your opinions that you then begin to chastise other people, put them down for it.

• 16:09Speaker 02

  And then go the next, the next mile and start making accusations of them being a racist and things like that.

• 16:15Joe Rogan?

  The Flint Dibble approach.

• 16:17Speaker 02

  That's really not good.

• 16:18Joe Rogan?

  Right. It's not good, but it's like that guy embodies what you don't like about academia. You see him physically, he embodies it. Like, it's like, that's what it is. It's these weak men, these weird, kind of bitchy, weak men. That decide that they're in control of things and the way they shut people down is by casting the worst pejoratives on them. Especially like the, the Graham Hancock stuff, calling him a racist, like what? Because he, because he's interested in Atlantis.

• 16:45Speaker 02

  I, I really did not like the letter that they wrote to Netflix to try to get, uh, season one taken down of Ancient Apocalypse.

• 16:51Joe Rogan?

  It's disgusting.

• 16:52Speaker 02

  And, you know, they, uh, sometimes they'll rebuttal and say, oh, well, you know, I never blatantly called him a racist. Like, well, okay, even if you didn't blatantly do it, you insinuated it and you were okay with insinuating it. And some of these people exist in a realm where, in their little bubbles, where they throw around the word racist all the time. And then when they get to the wider world. Where the rest of us exist, they find out very quickly that none of, we don't throw that term around lightly and accuse people of these things. And then, you know, at the end of the podcast, when he said, you asked, you know, things, the kind of temperature came down, and then I think maybe you asked something like, like, you know, well, what can people do to help archaeology? And he was like, oh, you can donate to the SAA. But the SAA is the one that wrote the letter.

• 17:35Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 17:36Speaker 02

  And it's like, oh, man, that's just, it's not a good look.

• 17:41Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's a real problem with human beings and ego when they have positions of power and authority, especially over something that is very esoteric, something that is like, and also completely complex. Like, when you're dealing with trying to decipher hieroglyphs and trying to, and then, you know, the fact that we know that the Library of Alexandria was burned down, so who knows what was lost in that?

• 18:07Speaker 02

  Several different times, like, five different times.

• 18:09Joe Rogan?

  God. I wonder if any of that just got stolen out of there, and then they blamed it on, like, how much of that shit's in the Vatican?

• 18:17Speaker 02

  The first time Caesar is chasing his rival Pompey across the Mediterranean, and Pompey flees to Alexandria. And Alexandria was kind of in the basket of Rome. The Ptolemies, who are the Greek pharaohs in Egypt, so the Greeks are controlling Egypt after Alexander comes in 332 B.C. So Alexander dies, his best friend Ptolemy becomes pharaoh. But the Ptolemies were very weak, not very good rulers, and so Rome kind of does like what the US does, where they get pulled into conflicts, and then, once they're there and they conquer everything, they seize all the power, you know? And so Rome had done this to, had done this to Egypt. And so they controlled Egypt, and they were pulling all of their, they were keeping the

• 19:01Speaker 02

  Ptolemies in power, the Roman soldiers were, and they were pulling all that grain into Egypt. And so Caesar follows Pompey, chases him to Alexandria, and so that Caesar can't, or so that Pompey can't flee, Caesar says, we'll burn the docks. Well, when you landed in Alexandria, you would land at this dock that went to A road called Soma Road. So you had Soma Road and Canopic Way. And it was like the street corner. It must have been amazing to see in real life. Like, think about this. You have the Library of Alexandria. You, all, this is all in one block. You have the Library of Alexandria. You have the museum, which is right next to it. So both together, they make the world's first university. And I mean, you can just imagine like walking through those halls. Across the street from that is Alexander's mausoleum.

• 19:46Speaker 02

  So, uh, his mausoleum, we think, the Emperor Hadrian, if you've heard of Hadrian before. Um, that he modeled his mausoleum on Alexander's. So we kind of have an idea of like what the mausoleum may have looked like. You know, have a marble statue of Alexander on top. So people are walking by every day in the middle of this town. And then across the street from that is the palatial district, where all the rich people live. And then off by the bay, you would have had Cleopatra's palace. And so it's this beautiful place, but when the boats come into the dock, you had to give up all the scrolls that you had. Cause the Ptolemies are obsessed with obtaining the world's knowledge. And they want the originals. They don't want a copy. So what they would tell people is you give us your writings. We'll write down a copy and we'll give you back your original. But what they would do is give back the copy and keep the original.

• 20:30Speaker 02

  And this is something called the Library Wars. This is the whole thing. So, um, but this was, it was connected to the docks. And so most of the buildings in Alexandria are made out of stone to prevent fires. Um, but the interior of Alexandria's library would have had all these wooden shelves that would cross where you'd stack all the scrolls in. So everything just, maybe the actual structure of the building doesn't burn down, but the entire interior of it burns up. And so when, uh, when Caesar sets fire to the docks to burn all of Pompeii's ships, it crawls up the docks and burns the library down. Well, uh, um, Augustus did the same thing. What, a decade and a half later, Augustus came and he seized Alexandria. And this is where, this is when Cleopatra and Mark Antony die.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  He seizes it. And then there are rebellions, cause the Alexandrians are very rebellious. They don't want to be ruled by, uh, by the Romans. And, um, so there's a, I think it's, I think it's Caracalla that, uh, he was being made fun of by the Alexandrians. There was a theater in town. It's actually the place where stand-up comedy. Comedy was invented in Alexandria. Yeah, so, so Really? And the butt of all the jokes was always the Roman emperor. So, so you'd have people like talking shit about the Roman emperor standing up, you know, in the, in the middle of Alexandria's theater. And so the Roman emperor was always the butt of the joke. Well, Caracalla, I believe it's Caracalla, he's one of the brothers in Gladiator 2, the, uh, the new Gladiator, if you've seen it. I haven't seen it.

• 21:57Speaker 02

  He's, he's one of the brothers, but the movie doesn't really depict the, the actual emperors very accurately. Um, but he gets tired of it. So he just comes down to Alexandria on like a royal visit and executes 25,000 people in the city of Alexandria and burns down parts of it. So he burned down the library for the third time. And then there was another emperor named Aurelian, uh, when a local Alexandrian declared himself the new Egyptian pharaoh. I think he was a real Egyptian. Uh, he Egypt, he, he declared himself like the newest pharaoh and he, he created this revolt and then Aurelian had to come and put the revolt down and he burned down the library again. So this is, we're getting close to like 300 AD at this point.

• 22:37Speaker 02

  Now, in 365 AD, there was a, um, there was a huge earthquake, uh, that was off of the coast of Crete, I think, which is the most southern, uh, Greek isle. And it's where the Minoans lived. I, I believe it's there, or it's off the coast of Cyprus. And so that earthquake like, like just reverberates down to Egypt and this massive tsunami destroys the entire city of Alexandria. And it said it was so catastrophic that, um, I think it's plenty of the elder or plenty of the younger comes down in a rescue mission from, from Italy and he comes to Alexandria and he records that 50,000 people in the city are missing because of, you know, the, the wave that gets pushed in and that all of the giant boats, these are giant, giant,

• 23:22Speaker 02

  gigantic boats in Alexandria's harbor are sitting on top of all the rooftops in the city. And it's after this point that the location of Alexander's body and the location of Alexandria's library just completely go missing. So, so they're both utterly destroyed and most likely all of the giant stones that were used to build the city were repurposed for, you know, other things. But, uh, in one fatal swoop, Alexandria's library, the museum and Alexander's mausoleum completely disappear from the historical record.

• 23:54Joe Rogan?

  Fight Night isn't just for fighters. Step into the action with DraftKings Sportsbook in your corner. As the official sports betting partner of the UFC, DraftKings brings the action to your fingertips. Every strike, takedown, knockout, it all hits different when you've got skin in the game. New to betting? No problem. Start simple. Pick a fighter to win, place your bet, and you're in. Even better, new customers can bet just $5 and get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins. It's the easiest way to score big on Fight Night. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app now and use the code ROGEN. That's code ROGEN for new customers to get $300 in bonus bets if your bet wins when

• 24:39Joe Rogan?

  you bet just $5, only on DraftKings. The crown is yours.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER. In New York, call 877-8HOPENY or text HOPENY at 467-369. In Connecticut, help is available for problem gambling. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org. Please play responsibly. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino and Resort in Kansas. 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Void in Ontario. Bet must win to receive reward. Bonus bets expire 168 hours after issuance. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see dkng.co/audio.

• 25:14Joe Rogan?

  Wow. It just shows you how vulnerable knowledge is. I really think about that today because, um, obviously, we have a lot of books and most things that are like, most physics work, most work on archaeology, most work on history is available in book form. But how much of what we have is on hard drives? And if there was a power outage, just a global, worldwide power outage that lasted six months...

• 25:47Joe Rogan?

  We're fucked.

• 25:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:48Joe Rogan?

  We don't know anything anymore.

• 25:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:50Joe Rogan?

  It's a small amount of time for an enormous cataclysmic disaster to completely erase tens of thousands of years of understanding of everything.

• 25:59Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:00Joe Rogan?

  Everything. We would have no knowledge. One generation removed from electronics would have no knowledge of how to recreate it, what steps need to be taken, what you have to build a chip plant?

• 26:13Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 26:13Joe Rogan?

  Where are they right now? They're in Taiwan? What the fuck are you talking about? How are we gonna do this? Hard drives?

• 26:19Speaker 02

  That's a precarious place for them to be.

• 26:20Joe Rogan?

  Starting from scratch. Starting from scratch today would be very similar, I think, to probably what starting from scratch was post the Great Flood.

• 26:31Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 26:32Joe Rogan?

  Post the Great Comet Impacts, all the younger drivers impact series stuff. Civilization, if that stuff is correct, if there is, if Graham's position and Randall Carlson's position is that there was probably a much more advanced civilization than just hunter-gatherers that lived ten thousand plus years ago. How many thousands of years would it take before we started calming down again? Well, it seems like it took about five, four or five thousand years before civilization emerges.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  A really long time.

• 27:05Joe Rogan?

  A really long time.

• 27:06Speaker 02

  I think about that with like foraging, you know? I was reading, yesterday I was reading Exploration Fawcett. Have you ever read this before or listened to the audiobook?

• 27:16Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 27:16Speaker 02

  It's his, it's Percy's.

• 27:17Joe Rogan?

  Percy Fawcett's?

• 27:18Speaker 02

  Personal diary. Yeah, so you have, you have.

• 27:20Joe Rogan?

  There's an audiobook of that?

• 27:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, it's on Audible. Yeah. Uh, dude, you'll get wrapped up in it. You won't be able to stop listening to it. Um, you know, he just has these amazing experiences and, ah, man, he would be like your best, like your all-time guest, you know, if you could have him on.

• 27:35Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 27:35Speaker 02

  Um, but.

• 27:36Joe Rogan?

  He had a great accent, too.

• 27:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, for sure. And, uh, and so you listen to his audiobook and the way he talks about meeting the indigenous people that live deep in the Amazon, you know, it would take him weeks to get to these little villages. And while he was out there, he would see like the system. Systematic mathematical structure with which they would set up these giant villages and how they would build these huge like thatch wood homes with foundations that are stones. And these people were, he said that they had like beautiful skin, they spoke elegantly, they sang songs and he was like, he's like, he's like, this isn't, he's like, these people in the Amazon are not primitive savages like my colleagues at the Royal Geographic Society

• 28:22Speaker 02

  in London believe that they are. These are people who are the fallen, or are the descendants of a fallen great civilization. He was like, the way they interact with each other is so sophisticated and the way they speak with each other.

• 28:34Joe Rogan?

  Why did he think they were the descendants of a fallen civilization and not the, the people that were currently living in the most modern version of the civilization?

• 28:44Speaker 02

  Um, I, I don't quite know. You know, there's some things that are, that are left out, like he has, he has some, before he started writing this, I think he always had these ideas in the back of his mind. And so you don't really get the origin of why he initially started thinking this, but you know, while he's exploring South America, he's hearing all these stories of, of, you know, semi-contactive people, like you have natives who still live the, the native life, but they can speak Spanish and he could speak a little bit of Spanish and communicate with these people. So he would hear about, oh yeah, you know, there's this, there's this huge city of gold off, you know, off in the jungle, months traveled that way. And it's the same kind of legend that all these Spaniards had heard.

• 29:26Speaker 02

  So it's this idea of there's, well, there was this civilization that used to be out there. And so Percy thought that maybe it has something to do with Atlantis. And so that was part of his journey looking for it. And then he, it's actually his wife Nina Fawcett, I believe, when she's in a library in England, she finds a Portuguese document, I think it's manuscript 512, have you ever heard of this?

• 29:51Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 29:52Speaker 02

  I could have the name of it wrong, but I think it's manuscript 512. And in that, it's these guys who are kind of like semi-professional Portuguese explorers.

• 30:02Speaker 02

  In the mid 1700s that are going around Brazil and they find this huge stone city with statues that they thought looked like Greek gods in the middle of the Amazon. And so, you know, the perception, like my perception, looking back through it is like, well, I mean, yeah, these are Portuguese guys who come from Europe. So when they see something that's native, their only lens to see it through is what they've grown up knowing, which is the Greek and Roman world. So that's how they communicate this idea. But they found this big stone city in the, in the middle of, I think it's, I'm pretty sure it's Brazil's jungle. And so this was completely forgotten until Percy's wife found this. So, you know, when he first went down to the Amazon, he was only there on a mapping expedition

• 30:43Speaker 02

  on behalf of, on behalf of Great Britain, which he was probably a spy. I'm, I'm guessing that that's what was actually happening there because he was a spy when he was in the military. And I think what he was doing is on an official basis, he's charting the border around Brazil with the Amazon River. But really what he's doing is collecting information so that maybe Great Britain can have a colony there someday. But then the war, but then the war disrupts all of that and he has to go fight in World War I. Which is funny because it's the same thing the Nazis were doing in the 1930s. But anyways, so while he's there on his first, while he's there on his first expedition, he doesn't initially, I think he's interested in these ideas of ancient history, but it's

• 31:25Speaker 02

  when he's there and he's off in the jungle, he's finding all these artifacts on the ground. And he was like, he's like, you know, the way that the pottery, there's clay pottery and then there's, you know, stone vessels and, and like eating utensils that he was finding, really elegant little statues and things. He found one that was made out of this like solid black stone that he could never, and it had this glow to it. And he could never, maybe not a glow, but like, like if you shine the light on it, you can tell that it's translucent in a way. I've seen stones like this in the Aztec realm. They have these scepters that have these orb things on the top. And if you shine a light on it, it's like this other worldly looking thing. I can only imagine if you're on like a peyote.

• 32:05Joe Rogan?

  What is the stone?

• 32:06Speaker 02

  I, I don't know. And it's missing now. It's lost. It, it went missing with him or somewhere in his expeditions that doesn't exist anymore. But there's an illustration of it in Exploration Fossa that you could find.

• 32:18Speaker 02

  And so he thought, like, when he was seeing all this on his first expedition, he's like, "Wait, these aren't these primitive savages that all my colleagues that I don't even like back home think that these people are. This is an advanced culture. There's something that's lost here." And so Percy didn't know if it was a fallen civilization that lived in the Amazon, or whether it was still out there somewhere. And he was trying to find either the ruins of it, or the living city, right? So he didn't really know if it was fallen or not, so that's...

• 32:45Joe Rogan?

  It's still interesting that he would think that way, instead of, "This is the pinnacle of civilization in the Amazon," which is why they're so advanced.

• 32:53Speaker 02

  I'm not sure...

• 32:54Joe Rogan?

  Is that like a preconceived notion that he had, that there was an advanced civilization? And that it had fallen?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 33:01Joe Rogan?

  Because if you're looking at the way the people were living, the way he's describing it, it sounds pretty advanced.

• 33:04Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, yeah, yeah.

• 33:05Joe Rogan?

  Why wouldn't you assume that these people had lived for thousands of years and eventually risen to this current level?

• 33:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

• 33:14Joe Rogan?

  That's the problem with preconceived notions, too.

• 33:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. But I do know that he had the utmost admiration and respect for these people. Like, he was completely infatuated with their way of life, and trying to... You know, what his goal was, was to prove that the, like, the narrow-minded perspective of the English aristocrats who thought that they were the pinnacle of civilization. He was determined to prove them wrong. And so he had a great admiration for these people. And he wanted to try to find, like, a big, big civilization, something with enough people that could rival, that could rival Europe. And where he went missing was in the Madogrosso

• 33:56Speaker 02

  region of Brazil. And the last place that they know that he was at was on May 29, 1925. And he wrote a letter to his wife from Dead Horse Camp, and he was like, "It may be a while before you hear from me. It could be up to a year or two before you hear from me. I'm about to head into a very dense area, and my trail runners, who would, you know, go back and forth with his notes, they weren't going to follow him out there because it's too dangerous." And that was the last letter that he had written. And he was going... He was heading off into what's called the Zingu region, which is like the Zingu River. And it's one of the most hostile regions in the Amazon. Maybe even, maybe even today, Teddy Roosevelt had trouble when, when he went there.

• 34:36Speaker 02

  But the Zingu region is where all of the major LIDAR came out within the last 10 years. They found all the ruins of these giant cities. And there's a city called Kiriguyu, I think. And it had an estimated population of about a million people, which is the size of Rome. And, you know, when you look at the LIDAR images, you can't get a perspective of how big they are. I, I have access to a LIDAR database of the entire United States. And I've mapped all kinds of huge uncharted mound sites in Florida. All of the southeast, I have hundreds of sites marked. And when you first look at them on a map, you're like, oh, okay, like, maybe that looks like it's 50 feet long or something.

• 35:20Speaker 02

  No, they'll be like 300 yards long, like these giant raised platforms in the, in the middle of the forest here in the US. And if I had access to LIDAR data like that, where I could measure it down in the Amazon, some of these things are miles long. Like raised platforms are a mile long. And they have, and they have highways, like, you know, maybe we should pull up a, just an image of a LIDAR scan from the Amazon. But you'll, you'll see this central city area, you'll see step pyramids and raised platforms. Maybe this is where people lived, or maybe this is where the market was. And there will be a road that cuts straight through it. And you can see the road just goes off in the distance for miles and miles and miles. And so what they would do, here we go.

• 36:00Speaker 02

  Yeah, this is, so this is one of these sites in, this is one of these sites, I believe this is in Brazil, or maybe it's in northeast Bolivia.

• 36:07Joe Rogan?

  And is all that area covered completely with jungle right now?

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Completely covered in jungle, yeah. So if you went out there.

• 36:13Joe Rogan?

  You wouldn't see any of this.

• 36:14Speaker 02

  You may not realize that you were standing on a mound, like you really got to train your eyes. You know, I put out this, I filmed this little series about a year and a half ago called Jungle of Stone, where I was going through the jungles in Central America. And we charted this city that had 16 pyramids in it. You know, we were there all day long and we charted 16 pyramids. And when I put it out, I got all these comments were like, "You're not doing anything but walking on a bunch of hills." Because it's so hard to see it. The jungle just claims everything back. So it takes, you really have to sit with seeing these things in person for a while before you start recognizing, "Oh, that is a mound, or that is a pyramid, that is a structure under the jungle." And so Percy Fawcett, where that Lidar came out is one of the places that he told his wife.

• 36:59Speaker 02

  He didn't share this publicly where he thought that the city was, but it's like bang on. He was exactly correct about where he thought a city would be. And we don't know if he reached it or not.

• 37:09Joe Rogan?

  Wow. It's so interesting because how long has Lidar been around for?

• 37:15Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 37:16Joe Rogan?

  And how long has it been used? I mean, think about for how long people had no idea that this existed because it was completely covered with jungle. They just assumed that there was evidence of a civilization, it'd be pretty obvious.

• 37:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 37:28Joe Rogan?

  But it's not. And it makes me wonder, like, as technology increases in its potential, like, what other new technologies will be discovered that will allow you to, instead of like having this ambiguous view of under the pyramids, have like a crystal clear, like, accurate, dimension by dimension, almost like a 3D map?

• 37:49Speaker 02

  This century for sure. This century is gonna be insane. It's gonna be insane. Like, you're gonna have everyone scanning everything. All of the Amazon will be mapped with Lidar. By the end of this century, all of the Sahara is gonna be mapped with Lidar by the end of this century.

• 38:04Joe Rogan?

  The Sahara is a big one.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, those are my two, those are my two big things. Like, when we talk about Atlantis and we talk about lost civilizations, I mean, my thing is the Sahara and the Sahara and the Amazon. You know, both of these things existed pre-Ice Age, especially if we're talking about pre-Ice Age civilization. The Sahara is an oasis, you know, 10,000 plus years ago. It's an oasis. You have, what, two or three of the world's largest lake systems on there. You have rivers everywhere. You know, it would have been like a beautiful place to live.

• 38:37Joe Rogan?

  Abundant resources, so there's no worry about food and shelter. You have plenty of time to figure things out, which is the thing that has always made sense to me. If you know the history of the Nile Valley and where Egypt was, like... That was a wonderful place to live to try to figure things out, right? Because you have so much food. And once you have so much food and you're kind of separated from everybody, it's really tough to get to you. So like, they lived unchallenged in that civilization for thousands of years.

• 39:06Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, that's amazing. And you know, whenever I, you know, so, so growing up, I mean, gosh, I read Fingerprints of the Gods when I was 16. I remember like sitting on the couch after school and reading it. And my dad comes up to me like, "That's a big book." And I go, "I know." It's like I'm reading a textbook for fun, you know? And it was, it was dense reading for me as a 16-year-old. And so, you know, I was so inspired by Graham. And then I went off and like got traditionally educated. And so I kind of have both of these perspectives. And I'm often shocked and disappointed at how other professional archaeologists and anthropologists explain popular mysteries, you know? Like, there was an Egyptologist on another popular podcast.

• 39:51Speaker 02

  And then the podcast host asked him to properly explain like, you know, the mystery around the pyramid. And it was just so subpar, I was shocked. And I was like, "I'm not even an Egyptologist. I know how to explain these things." And I felt the same way about Zahi. Maybe there's some kind of language barrier there, but it was also like, he didn't want to explain these things on a basic level. But one of the things that I never see talked about is the concentration of energy along the Nile Valley. Like, okay, so, you know, if I had to, if I had to put a, drop a pin anywhere on the earth where I think Atlantis would be, I would probably put it like in the Sahara somewhere, you know, along one of these major lakes where there's a lot of people living at one time.

• 40:33Speaker 02

  And then later on, as the Sahara dries up, you know, say beginning around like 800, I'm sorry, 8,000 B.C., it starts rapidly drying up, probably a little bit before that. And then by about 4,000 B.C., it's completely dry. So your Saharans only have a few places that they can go. They can go to the Mediterranean coast, they can go to the Atlantic coast, they can go down kind of into the Congo and in the savannas. Or they can go to this fertile valley oasis where it's like- 500 yards on each side where it's just completely lush tropical oasis. And so some people went there. And so you have this hyper concentration of energy and all these people living somewhere together for what we know is the first time in history. Like, we can verify it, I guess, if that makes sense.

• 41:18Speaker 02

  And so, rather than being able to have these huge pieces of property where they can all live separated from each other, kind of like in the Sahara, you have all this space and so luxurious. Now you have to live on top of each other and you have to build up these cities, you know, you're like building cities. And so, all that energy compacted into one place in this fertile oasis is either destined to completely crumble and fall apart, or it's New York City. It's this thin strip of highly concentrated, genius, hardworking people figuring out how to extrapolate the most out of their natural world and create some of the greatest things the world has ever seen. Just like New York City, we did it, you know?

• 42:00Speaker 02

  And I've never seen any Egyptologist explain things that way. I think that's, I think that's a good explanation, at least. And I'm open to things in Egypt being much older, like the Sphinx is definitely older than the pyramids. But I'm just always disappointed at like, the very low level with which archaeologists and anthropologists will come in and try to explain things to a popular audience. And it's kind of like you were asking, "Okay, but how do you know that? Like, explain that to me in a way that I can understand, how do you know this?" And then there's never a proper explanation. And I don't know what that is. It's like, it's like they strongly dislike the fact that there's mystery out there and that there are other people who are attempting to answer the mystery that are not part of

• 42:44Speaker 02

  the good boys' club, you know?

• 42:46Joe Rogan?

  That's exactly it.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  So they have this knee-jerk reaction to it all. They hate all of it. They don't want to be a part of all of it. And that's not going to work going forward. Like, you know, not to be political, but this, but this recent election showed that you're going to have to appeal to the popular audience in the future. Everyone is, you know?

• 43:04Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and especially when there's these forums now like YouTube where someone like you And put up videos explaining things or Jimmy Corsetti or Graham Hancock like the the access to people to share fascinating ideas. It's not limited to universities anymore, and I think that drives them crazy because they spent so much time being in control. And then all of a sudden, it's just like. And then through a lot of these appearances like Flint Dibble and Zahi, their credibility erodes publicly in in front of everyone's eyes. And then, you know, there's people that are going to support both of them on either side, and who knows how much of it is even real.

• 43:45Joe Rogan?

  Because now we have AI bots and that they get turned loose by whether it's universities like the University of Zurich. That just got in trouble for running that experiment with social media, which is really wild.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 43:56Joe Rogan?

  So we don't even know like how much of it is organic until you see some something like voting. And then you go, oh, this is how people really feel, but how much of that has even been influenced by all these AI campaigns? But what we do know is that human arrogance has always been a real problem. And the same thing that Percy Foster was probably dealing with, or Percy Fosse rather, was probably dealing with when he was, you know, the the people back home that thought these people were primitive.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:22Joe Rogan?

  It's like this arrogance that human beings.

• 44:24Speaker 02

  Looking down their nose at everybody.

• 44:25Joe Rogan?

  People love to be experts. They love to be experts and they love to and they also equate their own self-worth with being accurate. About information that you really can't be accurate about.

• 44:37Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 44:38Joe Rogan?

  Instead of just being humble, but yet knowledgeable.

• 44:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:41Joe Rogan?

  Which is a great position, you know, and when you talk to someone and they're humble and knowledgeable, that's a. Well, I those are my favorite conversations because they they'll tell you what they know and what they don't know, and this is why.

• 44:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 44:52Joe Rogan?

  Archaeologists are not doing that, which is why they're rejecting people like Graham Hancock. What they should be doing is embracing the work that he's doing because. Because he's self-funded.

• 45:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 45:03Joe Rogan?

  And because he's just selling books and, you know, and doing his thing and appearing on podcasts and developing this audience, he's allowed to do all these fantastic voyages. Like, he's in Iraq right now, like, studying the ancient Sumerian civilization, like, with the remnants of it.

• 45:22Speaker 02

  Well, there's, uh, there's two things I'll say there. You know, kinda like, I guess, a running theme of this is, is we're about to enter into, like, archaeological Wild West in a way. You know, um, I think that, you know, Jimmy getting involved with, uh, with Gobekli Tepe and the trees that were there, having the trees, the orchards planted over the sites.

• 45:44Joe Rogan?

  And they're moving them now.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and it's just, it's just proof that a guy, like, I, I started watching Jimmy 2018, I mean, gosh, was I, I just graduated from high school. And, um, and so he was kind of, uh, like, inspired me to be like, you know, he was this young charismatic guy that could go online and, and research topics and, and enthusiastically present these topics and, and, uh, and he was effective at doing it and, and inspired me for a long time. And, uh, and, you know, lo and behold, I guess, what, six, seven years later, he's still at it, and he's actually not just inspired people to be interested in the ancient world, but, but had an actual effect on something on the opposite side of the planet. Like, when all this happened, I was like, I was like, I was like, "Yeah, I mean, I get the concern, but I don't think the Turkish government cares what any of us over here

• 46:30Speaker 02

  in the US think." Sure enough, they removed the trees. And then there's kinda like the backpedaling of, of, "Oh, well, it was always in the plan to remove the trees." But I think it's, I think, you know, people might disagree with Jimmy's approach, whatever. But, um, but it's, you can't deny the fact that he himself, an independent guy, uh, was able to make so much noise that he affected a government on the opposite side of the planet. You know, and it, uh, and, and in a way, it's like, uh, it shows me, like, "Oh, you know, these, these expeditions that, that I'm planning and things that I'm gonna go out and survey and document for myself, like, these can make, these can make real changes. And these are things I had planned in Florida, here in the, here in the southeast, in the States, um, in central

• 47:11Speaker 02

  America and in the Amazon and it's like encouraging like wow, I mean, we're really approaching a time when independent people are gonna start making real noticeable differences and not just in the digital space that where people are interested in.

• 47:24Joe Rogan?

  Right, but in the physical archaeology world.

• 47:26Speaker 02

  Exactly, exactly, yeah.

• 47:27Joe Rogan?

  Jimmy's so meticulous too, like he's such a good representative because he's really intelligent, really thought provoking, but also really honest about what he knows and what he doesn't know. And he has counter arguments to his own points. He'll tell you something and then, but also it could be this. And this is what we know and because he's been really careful in the way he expresses himself, he's established this community that understands what he does. And they trust him and they go, no, no, no, he's gonna tell you the truth. He's gonna tell you what we know and why we know it. He's not gonna make any weird ideological leaps, he's not gonna make any weird judgments. He's just gonna lay out what is fascinating about these things.

• 48:11Joe Rogan?

  And because of that, whether he has a degree or not a degree, that guy's having a massive impact. I mean, I don't know how many, what is-

• 48:20Speaker 02

  Yeah, nobody can deny that.

• 48:21Joe Rogan?

  What does Bright Insights YouTube channel have for subscribers? And it, by the way, if you haven't watched any of his videos, can't recommend them enough. Love the guy, love the stuff. 1.7, by the way, he's been called a Nazi.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:36Joe Rogan?

  Which is, uh, that's just, that's what they use. That's, these are the terms, you know, he's been called all sorts of terrible things. None of them are true. He's a wonderful guy. And he's just a man who's deeply fascinated with these mysteries. And when he's pointing out the things that we cannot, like with Baalbek in Lebanon, the trillion, what do they call the trillion stones?

• 48:59Speaker 02

  Trilithon stones.

• 49:00Joe Rogan?

  Trilithon stones. What, what is it, whatever, there's certain things that you can point out that people go, okay, what the fuck? Like, he gets to the what the fuck stuff, where everybody's like, okay, what else you got? You know, like, how come I didn't know this? How come this isn't like something, like, when you're talking about ancient history, the history of, uh, whether it's Lebanon or Egypt, and when they start talking about these things and they lay out the, the histories of the pharaohs and why aren't you talking about the distance? They carried these fucking enormous eighty-ton rocks through the mountains and how they cut them, like, why, that's the mystery.

• 49:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:38Joe Rogan?

  This is the big piece of evidence that these guys just want to dismiss, oh, it was the national project. You know, like, okay, yeah, but that doesn't say how you did that.

• 49:49Speaker 02

  No.

• 49:50Joe Rogan?

  Five thousand years ago. You need to help me out here.

• 49:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:53Joe Rogan?

  And when these openings exist and guys like Jimmy run through them, but meticulously document things and talk about them with humility and talk about them with a general understanding of the absolute undeniable facts. And then it creates this enormous audience. And then because of that enormous audience, he has a huge impact.

• 50:13Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:14Joe Rogan?

  On actual archaeology, and that's why they hate him. It's just because he's doing their job better than they're doing their job. Because he's not trapped. He's not stuck in this compartmentalized ideological position of working for a university.

• 50:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:32Joe Rogan?

  And he doesn't have to worry about funding, and he doesn't have to worry about, you know, being chastised by his peers because they're all a bunch of bitches. He doesn't have to worry about that, so he's free. And there's a bunch of those guys that are emerging now, and guys like yourself. And I think that's really important. Because the gatekeepers have been wrong every step of the way with almost everything. Whether it's medical science, whether it's health and nutrition, whatever it is. Like, they've been wrong every damn step of the way. So, maybe open it up.

• 51:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:02Joe Rogan?

  Just like the internet opened up information to everybody. We need to open up the exploration of information to everybody and not have it contained with a few People that have degrees from places that we know are ideologically captured. We can see how they behave. We can see the things they say and the way they do things and the way they act and the way, even the way they affect enrollment. Based on race and gender and sexual preference, like you guys are fucking crazy. This is not how you're supposed to handle knowledge and information. This is a dumb approach. And we see that through basically every place where there's a few group of people, this isolated insulated group of people that has the ultimate

• 51:45Joe Rogan?

  influence over whatever particular field of study is their specialty. It's just a danger that the human ego and the human mind fall prey to almost every single time. The internet, what it's done is it's like this great equalizer. And it's just, it is allowed people to have these, and you hear a lot of people saying, you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't be doing this, don't do your own research and like, those are stupid sayings, like you can't think like that. You, you, there's gonna be people that say things that are absolutely ludicrous and you have to be able to listen to them and then listen to people that are more intelligent and, and, and more rational and also objective and go that guy is,

• 52:29Joe Rogan?

  that's what I'm interested in. I mean, I'm interested in this guy. I know he's not gonna lie. You know, and there's too many instances of archaeologists just lying, lying and attacking each other. When one of them like close first like that.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, attacking each other.

• 52:45Joe Rogan?

  Think DraftKings isn't available where you live? Think again. DraftKings, an official partner of the NBA, is now available in all 50 states. So wherever you live, follow your favorite NBA stars. Get excited about the biggest matchups and lock in on those buzzer beating moments. And with DraftKings, it's all in one app. Plus, new customers get three months of NBA League Pass on us so you can catch more NBA action anytime, anywhere. Download the DraftKings Sports app today and use code ROGEN. New DraftKings customers spend five.

• 53:21Joe Rogan?

  And get 200 in total bonuses plus three months of NBA league pass on us. That's code Rogan in partnership with DraftKings. The crown is yours.

• 53:32Speaker 03

  Bet with DK Sportsbook. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, 1-800-MYRESSET. Connecticut call 888-789-7777. Visit ccpg.org. On behalf of Boot Hill Casino in Kansas. Bet tax passed through May apply in Illinois. 21 and over, void in Canada. Event contract trading with DraftKings predictions involves risk of loss. Availability varies. Predictions offered void in New York. Bet to get bonus bets that expire in seven days. Trade to get predictions dollars that expire in one year. $50 in rewards issued every seven days via click to claim for 21 days. One non-withdrawable reward redeemable. NBA League Pass auto renews until canceled. Terms at dkng.co/audio. Limited time offer. Nationwide based on sportsbook predictions and free to play sports contest availability varies by state.

• 54:15Joe Rogan?

  This episode is brought to you by The Farmer's Dog. Here's a fun fact. Research shows that dogs who maintain a healthy weight can live up to two and a half years longer on average than dogs who are overweight. Isn't that wild and also kind of obvious at the same time? So why is feeding vague scoops of ultra-processed kibble still the status quo for most dog owners? Healthy alternatives exist and trust me, I know. I buy one, The Farmer's Dog. I use it for both my dogs. They love it. They eat it up quick. It smells good to them. It smells good to me. It's human-grade food. The Farmer's Dog makes fresh food for dogs and my dogs love it.

• 54:54Joe Rogan?

  Their recipes are made with real meat and fresh vegetables that are gently cooked to retain vital nutrients. They also portion out the meals to your dog's nutritional needs, which helps avoid overfeeding and makes weight management easier. And isn't getting more time with our four-legged best friends something every dog owner wants? The answer to that is yes, obviously. So try The Farmer's Dog today and get 50% off your first box of fresh, healthy food. Plus, get free shipping. Just go to thefarmersdog.com/Rogan. This offer is for new customers only.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  I mean, I just experienced this the other day. You know, so I had a I guess being early on in my career, I'm passionate about so many different things. And I'm the kind of person that's like, "Oh, I'm passionate about this. This is what I'm gonna do." And so I applied to the University of Athens in Greece, and I was really into the classics, and I was gonna go for that. And then I just had this, let's just say I was in the jungle, and I had a mind-opening experience, and I was reminded of the fact that my purpose here, the reason I started doing all this, was continuing kinda like my family's legacy. And I'm interested in a lot of different things. And I'm not gonna specialize, I'm not gonna like hunker down in this academic path or whatever, and so I just decided, I'm not gonna go through with this.

• 56:18Speaker 02

  So I start, you know, publishing, you know, content in my research on the Americas again. And in the Americas are very mysterious. It's, I mean, very comparable to Egypt, it was just, the amount of questions that haven't been answered is insane. And the Olmec world is fascinating. And so, you know, there's, you know, Graham in Fingerprints of the Gods, he talks about how the Olmecs, he thought that they may have like African features. And of course, that was 1995. And so, I don't know, 2015, you guys are talking, and he's like, "Well, you know, I published that then, but DNA research has come out that says that, you know, these people don't

• 57:00Speaker 02

  have African DNA in them, and that maybe this is Polynesian, maybe this is Australasian people intermixing, and that's why they have this unique look, whatever." But in the Olmec world, there's this monument that is actually called El Negro. And you look at it, and it's not an Olmec, it is an African man. And so I post about this on my ex-account, and I just kind of like list everything I've seen in the Olmec world, and I'm like, "You know, this is really fascinating, maybe this is evidence of Africans who were in the Olmec world." And I hadn't seen this monument before I saw it in person. Because you go in the Olmec realm, or the region in Mexico, and you go to these museums, and you look at the log, or the ledger that people have been on, and nobody has visited this museum in the last four months, and before that, it was, you know, six months before that.

• 57:45Speaker 02

  And these monuments just kinda sit underneath these metal roofs, you know, to protect them from the rain, and it's like this, just this completely lost civilization.

• 57:54Joe Rogan?

  Is there an image of this that's available online?

• 57:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There we go, there we go. So if you pull up an Olmec head, you'll see that these guys are very different looking, and especially if you can get, yeah, yeah, there we go.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  Look at a, okay, so that's a, yeah, okay, so that's a regular Olmec head. So you can see that these are two different races of people. You know, the Olmecs have very soft features, round faces, big eyes, big lips, kind of big noses. They have very soft features. And this El Negro monument has these high cheekbones, this defined jawline, this intense kind of...

• 58:30Joe Rogan?

  But isn't there a lot of variety, just in, like, let's just say Italians?

• 58:34Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

• 58:36Joe Rogan?

  So couldn't this just be someone who's on a spectrum of features? That, I mean, I don't think it's that much different than the Olmecs.

• 58:44Speaker 02

  You don't think so?

• 58:44Joe Rogan?

  No, when I'm looking at it, I could, I mean, I could imagine, like, there's, like I said, it just, you know, my nationality, Italians. So there's Italians with very thin faces, and there's these big, thick ones, and like, people vary quite a bit. There's enough similarities that I could say, oh, those could be the same people.

• 59:00Speaker 02

  Well, the only counter I give to that is, when you, when you visit the Olmec realm, you see a lot more than just the heads. You see a lot of Olmec faces, dozens and dozens and dozens of them, maybe well over 100. And when you've seen them all, and you kind of get a gist of like, the way they generally look, this guy will really stand out. Like, I took a, like, a group of students there, and we all, as soon as we all came in and saw it, based on everything we'd been seeing for the past week, it immediately stood out to us.

• 59:27Joe Rogan?

  Well, certainly the thick brow is unique to all the other Olmec who are wearing helmets.

• 59:32Speaker 02

  And that, that, that hair as well, it's kind of that, it's kind of that curly hair, and, or at least it, it looks like it to me. And so, so anyways, you know, he could, he could be Olmec. I, I don't, you know, my identity is not tied up in what I think this is or is not.

• 59:48Joe Rogan?

  Also, Olmec could be African, like, very, very clearly. That one on the left, easily could be an African man.

• 59:55Speaker 02

  Which one, this guy right here?

• 59:56Joe Rogan?

  This one, the one next to the white one, to the left, to that, to the, yeah, right there. Easily could be an African man.

• 1:00:01Speaker 02

  It certainly does look that way, but I was on a, I was on a plane to Mexico a couple of months ago, and I was going into the Olmec realm, and I looked, I was like, I wanted to take a picture of this guy, and looked to the left of me, and he was an Olmec man, sitting next to me, and he was... He was, you know, he looked like, he didn't look like any Mexican I've ever seen. There's something there with the DNA of the Olmec people that is definitely connected with something else that, that you don't see if you go to the Maya realm, that you don't see if you go to like Mexico City. They have something in their DNA. They have this very specific look about them. I don't know exactly what it is. But I'm like looking and I'm like, this Olmec guy next to me.

• 1:00:40Joe Rogan?

  So fascinating because it clearly could have been African explorers that made it.

• 1:00:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, I'll tell you what. Could we look up, uh, gosh, look up the Traveler Olmec Monument if you would please, Jamie. It's the Traveler. I want to call him, I think he's Monument 13. There's another one called Monument 19 that we should look at. But he's this man that's very clearly not, uh, there we go, uh, top left, the one that's on Reddit. In fact, this might be my post on Reddit. Yes, yes, sir. So this guy right here, alright, so this is really, really fascinating. So let's diagnose this. Alright, so flags. Flags are invented, this is very unknown fact. Flags are invented, or the first place that we have evidence for it is along the Nile Valley.

• 1:01:27Speaker 02

  Um, on these predynastic pots, uh, which they're not the, not the stone vases. Um, but just like clay pottery, they would make little paintings on them. And people have these riverboats that have these flags on them, and the flags would say what city you had come from, or what village you had come from. And so that, so flags are an old world thing. We don't have any evidence of flags in the new world. Alright, he's also wearing a turban. He's got this big turban that's draping off the back of his head. And he very clearly has this distinct beard that's popping out. Now, Native Americans, sometimes they can, you know, they are, uh, they're Asiatic. They have, they have Asian DNA. And, um, and Asians don't really grow typically. Sometimes they'll grow the little like stash and a little bit of a beard here,

• 1:02:12Speaker 02

  but they don't have that big, thick beard that you would see, you know, like in Europe or along the Mediterranean, in the Middle East. And so this guy has this big, thick beard, and then he's got boots on his feet as well. And we think that these are, these glyphs that you see to his left and right. These are really, really early Olmec glyphs, and they interpret that foot to the left as saying that he came from somewhere. He was a traveler. And so, the thought here is, so this is around 900 B.C., give or take a little bit. They don't really, they really have no idea when these are made. Like, you go to all the monuments, and it says, "Made somewhere between 1500 B.C. and 400 B.C." And they'll say 1500 B.C. and 400 B.C.

• 1:02:56Speaker 02

  And so, they really are uncertain about how old a lot of these monuments are.

• 1:03:00Joe Rogan?

  Make it big again, Jamie, please.

• 1:03:02Speaker 02

  But if we shoot for dead center 900 B.C., the Phoenicians out of the Mediterranean are launching these sailing expeditions around the coast of Africa. These are the ancient world's greatest sailors that we know of. And so, there are, there were like experimental archaeological or scientific, I don't know, expeditions done that show if you would send one of these early Iron Age boats, or if you send any ship out of the gates of Hercules, or the Strait of Gibraltar, and you send it out into the Atlantic, and it drifts just a little bit too far without turning south along the African coast, it will be carried by a current across the Atlantic Ocean, down

• 1:03:47Speaker 02

  into the Bahamas, the Caribbean, and straight into the Gulf of Mexico. And if that had happened, if people who had looked like they're in the Old World, like this guy, if that had happened, somebody from the Old World, the largest civilization at the time, the empire in this area would have been the Olmecs. And the reason I feel so strongly about that is because we do not have flags, turbans, or boots in the ancient Americas. This guy looks nothing like a Native American. And the flag, turban, and boots are all Old World features.

• 1:04:18Joe Rogan?

  You know what's fascinating to me, too? The image on the lower right of the bird's head looks very similar to the carvings on Gobekli Tepe.

• 1:04:26Speaker 02

  Doesn't it?

• 1:04:27Joe Rogan?

  Yes, very. The curve of the beak, that's not how birds' beaks look. Like, that's a very distinct style of artwork.

• 1:04:36Speaker 02

  Well, and it's this-

• 1:04:37Joe Rogan?

  If you can find the images of the birds from Gobekli Tepe?

• 1:04:40Speaker 02

  It's this raised relief art style. So people talk about it a lot with Gobekli Tepe. I mean, think about this. This is 11,600 years ago. And you have artisans and stonemasons who have been practicing for so long that now they're able to take a blank piece of stone and carve the face off to reveal the artwork from underneath it. Not carve the artwork into the stone-

• 1:05:05Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 1:05:05Speaker 02

  -but carve the stone away and reveal this sculpture from underneath. How similar does that look? It's bizarre, right?

• 1:05:11Joe Rogan?

  Real similar.

• 1:05:12Speaker 02

  And so it's the exact same kind of art style that you see in the Olmec realm.

• 1:05:18Joe Rogan?

  Exactly. The 3D stone carvings. Instead of carving it directly into the stone, carve the stone around it. They're both doing the same thing. It takes a lot of time.

• 1:05:27Speaker 02

  I mean, how-

• 1:05:28Joe Rogan?

  A lot more effort.

• 1:05:29Speaker 02

  Could you imagine?

• 1:05:30Joe Rogan?

  Weird. Weird stuff. It's also like the idea that this is documenting time. That, you know, the handbags or whatever those things are, what it actually is, is the sun going over the earth.

• 1:05:45Speaker 02

  You know, I'm writing a paper about this, but this might be a good place to talk about it. So you know, the handbag mystery is very fascinating. We have them in Assyria. We have them in Mesopotamia. As far as I know, I don't think one's been found in Egypt. You can see them on the top of those T-pillars in Gobekli Tepe. And there's one in the Olmec realm. Are you familiar with this?

• 1:06:11Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:06:11Speaker 02

  Monument 19, if we can look that up. I mean, dude, I think it's the coolest handbag. And when I saw it in person, I like jumped. I had been waiting years to see it.

• 1:06:21Joe Rogan?

  It's the same thing?

• 1:06:22Speaker 02

  Olmec Monument 19. So this guy, he's wrapped in, he's sitting in Quetzalcoatl. Could you do the one at the top left where we get the full picture? There we go. So this stone is probably about this big. It's probably about this big, and it sits on a table like this. So he's sitting inside the feathered serpent, Quetzalcoatl. And so he's sitting inside the feathered serpent, and he's holding this handbag. And I'm not sure, so he has this, and if you can, if you see, he has a feathered serpent mask around his head as well. I'm not sure what exactly is above him. There, well, there are actually two, it's really hard to make it out, but what's above him, that little box looking thing, is some kind of box that's being held up by two birds on each end. But the important thing here

• 1:07:07Speaker 02

  is the fact that this is the first depiction of the feathered serpent in all of Mesoamerica that we know of. And it's, it might be the oldest handbag known, as far as like, what we have official dates for. And so the idea here is that he's some kind of sacred shaman, bringer of enlightenment, bringer of knowledge, something like that. And so I had been on the hunt for another handbag. Everywhere I go, I'm always looking for a handbag. I was in Cambodia a couple of weeks ago. I'm going around the temples of Angkor Wat, and there's hieroglyphs and, and carvings all over the walls. I'm looking for a handbag, I can't find one. But when I was in, when I was in central Mexico, I was at a site called Kakashla, and I found another handbag person.

• 1:07:52Speaker 02

  I've never like officially published it. It's on my X if you'd want to look it up.

• 1:07:56Joe Rogan?

  What is the timeline for that one?

• 1:07:58Speaker 02

  They don't really know. When you look at the monument, it says, it says anywhere from 1400 B.C. to 400 B.C. That's just what they think. I mean, the Olmec, the Olmec realm is so uncertain, and and we don't have hard dates for almost, for almost anything. They appear on the historical, on this historical timeline as a fully fledged civilization capable of creating what you're seeing from the very beginning. Just like so many civilizations, it's like as soon as they arrive, you know, as soon as they arrive in the world, they're doing everything to the fullest capacity. And we don't have any evidence in the Olmec realm of them working their way towards being able to do things like this. It's just from the very beginning,

• 1:08:39Speaker 02

  they're able to make monuments like this, move these 50-ton Olmec heads. The largest head is, you'll find this interesting. So, there was a nautical engineer that MECC, which is an organization I'm with, it's the Maya Exploration Center, it's run by Dr. Ed Barnhart, I'm a member of it. And, and one of the guys that worked with us, traveled into the Olmec realm, he's a nautical engineer, he's fascinated with, he's fascinated with, how were the Olmecs moving these huge heads up and down these rivers? So they live in like the rivers, swamps, they have to cross some mountain ranges, how are you getting these heads 90 miles away from the Sierra de la Tushla volcanic belt, that's where they're pulling the basalt from? Because

• 1:09:23Speaker 02

  we found unfinished heads like at the base of these big basalt quarries. And they're transporting them 90 kilometers away through, you know, like I was saying, rivers and valleys.

• 1:09:31Joe Rogan?

  90 miles or kilometers?

• 1:09:33Speaker 02

  I think it's kilometers. It's kilometers as the crow flies, I'm pretty sure.

• 1:09:37Joe Rogan?

  Oh, okay, okay.

• 1:09:37Speaker 02

  And, so, much further when you're actually dealing with the complications of the terrain. And, and so, he was fascinated, like, okay, how do they get them to the river? And then when, how do they get them on the boat? And when it's on the boat, how, how exactly does this work if they're transporting it by boat? And, kind of the same mystery in Egypt too, right? Like, how, how do the nuances of these things work? So, he devised this algorithm or whatever, where you could put in the hypothetical size of your Olmec raft, and put in the hypothetical size of an Olmec head into this database or whatever. And, when you made a raft that was too big to go down the narrow stretches of the Coatzalcoatl river, which is like

• 1:10:20Speaker 02

  the Olmecs Nile River, when the raft was too big and too wide to actually go down the river, and you put a five-ton Olmec head on it, it would sink that raft. But the smallest Olmec head is six tons, and the largest one is 52 tons. So how are they, how are they doing it? And this is something that like all archaeologists have quietly known, this idea of, they're just being transported on these simple balsa rafts, must be wrong, it's, you know, it's, it's unexplained. How are these things being done? And I just find this realm really fascinating.

• 1:10:51Joe Rogan?

  Wow. That is fascinating. And then when, do they even know what language they spoke?

• 1:10:56Speaker 02

  No. We don't know what language they spoke. We don't even know what they called themselves. The only reason we call them the Olmecs is because Cortez, 1519 to 1521, he's moving through Mexico to conquer Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital. During this time, you have these Spanish chroniclers that are taking in information, taking in information but not at the rate that everything's being destroyed. All these people are dying from this disease and influenza. And there's a record of what the people who lived in the Olmec region are called at that time in 1520, let's say. And Aztecs called them the Olmecs. In their language, Nahwaddle, and those Olmec people,

• 1:11:39Speaker 02

  the name means the rubber people, or the people of the land of rubber. They produced rubber, and that's how the Olmecs were so rich so early on in time. But these are not, the people living in 1519 are not the Olmecs. There has already, the Olmecs have fallen, and there are other cultures that have risen and fallen in this same region as well. The Olmecs are far, far, far, far into the distant past. The Aztecs maybe didn't even know who the Olmecs were. You know, so are you familiar with Teotihuacan? Yeah. The, you know, the three massive, we have the Temple of the Sun, the Temple of the Moon, and then the Temple of Quetzalcoatl, and they form this kind of like Orion's Belt alignment, similar to Giza. Well, you know, when the Aztecs arrived in Mexico,

• 1:12:24Speaker 02

  Teotihuacan had been abandoned for almost a thousand years, we think. So when they arrived, Teotihuacan is already gone. We don't even know the name of Teotihuacan. We don't know the name of the people, we don't know the name of the city.

• 1:12:38Speaker 02

  We know their relationship with other people around them, like the Maya were at war with Teotihuacan, but the civilization had already fallen. So when the Aztecs arrived, the Olmecs had been gone for...

• 1:12:49Speaker 02

  Almost 2,000 years, at least. Wow. The Olmec's already been gone, Teotihuacan had been gone for 1,000 years. The Maya had already collapsed. The Maya collapsed long before the Spanish got there. And so, you know, it's just, again, like, the Americas are just so mysterious and there's so much to know there. And so, kind of getting back to what I was saying is, when I, when I talk about the mysteries of the Americas, I immediately get accosted by other of my quote-unquote colleagues. I don't have any colleagues in the academic realm, but, you know, other academics who will, like, immediately jump in my comment section on X or whatever, and they'll reprimand me, and they'll be like, "Oh, so back to the pseudo-archaeology, is it?" And I'm like, "So, so I can't talk about anything that's fascinating.

• 1:13:33Speaker 02

  I need to talk about things that are boring, so you don't get upset with me." And now, it's just like, the, the, the popular audience has completely had enough of it, and I'll have, like, 15 people jump in and, you know, defend me. Yeah, I've seen that. And be like- It's fun to watch. Yeah, and they'll be like, and they'll be like, like, you know, "Okay, this is a perfect representation of what you guys do. I stepped just slightly out of this line, or what you think is appropriate for me." And I'm talking about things that are interesting, that inspire people to be interested in the ancient world, to go see these sites. Like, these people, they don't like you, they don't like the people that you have on, but how many people do you think you've sent to Egypt? You know, like- Quite a few. You had a significant impact, this show had a significant impact, on me being interested

• 1:14:16Speaker 02

  in the ancient world, and I have traveled all over the world, you know, because largely, you know, some of this show inspired me to do that. And, and I'm probably one of the few people that found you because of Graham Hancock. That's awesome. Yeah, yeah, rather than the other way around. And, and so, you know, I've traveled all over the world, and then what I have done is inspired other people to travel around the world. So, you know, how many of these archaeologists that are keyboard warriors hiding, hiding behind, you know, a, a desk or whatever, how many of these people are inspiring people to travel around the world? And, you know, it's just, it's just, again, we're about to reach this, like, archaeological Wild West, where I don't really know what's gonna happen in the future.

• 1:14:56Joe Rogan?

  All your favorite NBA players are back and DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NBA, is the place to bet on NBA stars this season. Follow your favorite NBA stars, get excited about the biggest matchups and lock in on those buzzer beating moments. Plus, new customers get three months of NBA League Pass on us so you can catch more NBA action anytime, anywhere. Download the DraftKings Sports app today and use code ROGEN. New DraftKings customers spend five and get 200 in total bonuses plus three months of NBA League Pass on us. That's code ROGEN. In partnership with DraftKings, the crown is yours.

• 1:15:40Speaker 03

  If you or someone you know has a gambling problem, call 1-800-MYRESSET. 21 and over, Virginia only. Eligibility restrictions apply. $50 in non-withdrawable bonus bets issued every seven days via click to claim for 21 days. Bonus bets expire seven days after issuance. Four additional terms and responsible gaming resources. See sportsbook.draftkings.com/promos. NBA League Pass auto renews until canceled. Limited time offer.

• 1:16:02Speaker 04

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carry sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 1:16:28Speaker 05

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins is not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 1:16:40Speaker 00

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common. Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or

• 1:17:03Speaker 03

  Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:17:26Speaker 00

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:17:33Joe Rogan?

  You're always gonna have people that are threatened by an emerging new thing. And they're going to attack it. Like, you know, famously, in this world, Howard Stern used to attack podcasts as being useless. Oh, really? Like, "Why are you wasting your time? You know, get a radio show, figure out how to do it." This is the beginning, the early days. You know, obviously, you can't do that anymore. But I think the same thing is happening with archaeologists, because Flint Dibble's own university that has an archaeology program, they're cutting the archaeology program. I saw that. Yeah, which is, this is why. Like, you're in this, like, survival mode, this famine mode. Yeah, it's too bad. And fam- it's terrible.

• 1:18:16Joe Rogan?

  But famine thinking is always very dangerous. You see it with people that don't want other people to be successful. It exists in the comedy world. There's famine thinking. When other people start doing better, they start attacking those people. They never attack people that aren't doing as well as them. It's just a natural human instinct, unfortunately. And it's a natural human instinct from people with poor character. And I think that these academic institutes, they reinforce poor character, and they actually encourage it. Poor character and the, this, like, labeling people in the worst possible light in order to make your point, which is like, ad hominem attacks are always a sign that your argument sucks. Everybody knows that. If you really understand debating and you really understand, like, the actual impact

• 1:19:01Joe Rogan?

  that these kind of conversations have on people, the objective person on the outside looking at it, they see someone attacking, someone calling them all these names, unfounded, and they go, "Oh, that guy's argument probably sucks." Like, instantaneously. So they're destroying themselves while they're doing this. But this is, you'll see this in every walk of life. You'll see this in everything. It's just a human thing. When they don't wanna work as hard as other people, or they don't have the young fire like you have. Like, there's a thing that people have when they're very curious and young and they don't have maybe a lot of responsibilities, or bills, or problems, and they can just, they can devote their energy to this pursuit that terrifies people. That have been kind of like, half-assing it for a long time.

• 1:19:43Joe Rogan?

  Half-assing it and hiding behind these, these, you know, certificates on their wall that show that they're the, these are the gatekeepers of information.

• 1:19:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:19:54Joe Rogan?

  You know, it's like, it's not gonna work anymore. Doesn't work anymore with podcasts, it's not gonna work anymore with your kind of work in archaeology. It's not gonna work anymore with UFO disclosure. It's not gonna work anymore with any of this stuff. Like, people are way more interested in getting to the bottom of things, and they don't trust institutions anymore.

• 1:20:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And, um, and the institutions are feeling the pressure of independent media. You know, um, like going back to the Gobekli Tepe tree situation. It'll be really interesting to see, you know, like Jimmy's in an interesting position where, where, and maybe there's, maybe there's a way that like, the relationship between independent people and the popular enthusiastic audience and, you know, the archaeological departments in Turkey can have a better relationship because of these things in the future.

• 1:20:47Joe Rogan?

  You know how that would work? People like you become the head of an archaeology department. That's, this is really the only way it's gonna work. It's like, it's almost like these institutions have to feel so much pressure and so much disgust from the general public that they start incorporating new people into it. You know, sort of like CNN is trying to hire objective journalists now. You're like, we gotta get rid of Don Lemon and Brian Stelter, or actually, he's back. But they, so they, they try to course correct, because that's the only way to survive. Like, because it's not working, what you're doing.

• 1:21:19Speaker 02

  From what I can see, in the limited amount that I see, and this is the hard part, is sort of we get a skewed view into the archaeological world or the academic world. And sometimes I don't even know what's what, because the archaeologists that make their opinions known are usually the ones with really bad opinions. You know, and then all the other people that are pretty agreeable, they just kind of sit on the sideline, right? And it's hard to know, like, what are most people, what are most of these future archaeologists, where are they think, where's their mind at? And some of the young people I talk to, they are fascinated by Graham Hancock.

• 1:21:58Speaker 02

  They may not agree with, you know, like, I guess in a way I could say is, they may love the first nine episodes of Ancient Apocalypse. But in the 10th episode where Graham gives the end of his thesis, they'll be like, mm, okay, I see the evidence differently, but this is really fascinating. And some of the mysteries you pointed out along the way are valid, like, you know, the idea of, well, you know, the artifact record of the tools that we have that the Egyptians in the Old Kingdom were using does not fit the megalithic architecture that they then produced. Okay, what's the answer to this mystery? Could it have been that we're missing a chapter of history that's before that, where a different civilization did it? Or is there, for some reason, there's an artifact record that's lost to us today?

• 1:22:42Speaker 02

  And so you have, you know, guys like Graham who will come in and posit, well, there could have been a lost civilization that did this. And then an archaeologist, a young archaeologist, may disagree with the lost civilization, but they say, but Graham, you really pointed out the fact and made it well-known that, you know, the artifact record that we have of how they built the pyramids, that's a big mystery. And how they built the pyramids, that's a big mystery. This is worth considering. And they like Graham. You know, so a lot of young archaeologists, at least I say a lot, it's really, just the ones I talk to in my spare time that are my age, they're fascinated by these ideas. And my hope is maybe these people become leaders someday, but at the same time, like, I don't know, to get ahead in that world, man, you gotta be a dog.

• 1:23:23Joe Rogan?

  The world's poisoned, and the people at the top are not gonna let go. They're gonna stay in there till the Noam Chomsky stage. You know, this is, I just think it's never gonna end in that way. I think it's gotta become some sort of an independent branch, like, you know, a break off.

• 1:23:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, you know, Zahi is a, Zahi is a really good example of what I think goes on in archaeology in Egypt. You know, you have a lot of different missions from different countries working in Egypt. You have like a German mission, you have the American mission, you know, different people working at different sites. I can't speak to every country that's working there. You have Australian missions that are working in Egypt, digging at certain sites. But, uh, but, um, you know, when I, when I watch Zahi, I'm like, I'm like, yeah, this is, the what you're seeing, this is the attitude that has been at the spear point of Egyptology for the last lifetime. And, uh, and you can just imagine what goes on. Like, I mean, think about being on a dig site with him.

• 1:24:22Speaker 02

  Think about working in his industry underneath him. Think about all the people that were a part of the discoveries that he made that feel so disrespected and so overlooked. You know, not once during that podcast did he ever acknowledge all the hardworking archaeologists that were actually there in the dirt doing all this hard work. He just took all this limelight. And so, you know, clearly, his identity is tied into what's in his coffee table book. And, uh, you know, for him to act like that's the Bible of Giza is insane. I own the book and I, and I've read it and it has half of a page about the subterranean chamber in Khufu's pyramid. So it's, it's, you could write a whole book about that.

• 1:25:02Joe Rogan?

  What is your, I don't mean to interrupt, keep going, keep going.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  Oh, well, I was just gonna say, I was just gonna say, man, um, when you go to Egypt, there are some things that you're gonna be appalled by, by like the, the, the modern Egyptian world. I, uh,

• 1:25:17Speaker 02

  I do this series on YouTube called Megaliths You've Never Seen Before. And I'm always trying to like find these weird obscure blocks that you never see on Google. And I'm walking around the side of the Pyramid of Venus.

• 1:25:31Speaker 02

  And there's a turd on the side of the pyramid.

• 1:25:34Joe Rogan?

  A human turd?

• 1:25:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, and it's from the guard that's like sitting up on top of the hill, the Egyptian guard, looking down at me. And I go around to Land of Kim, who I'm traveling with. Have you heard of him before?

• 1:25:45Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:25:45Speaker 02

  He's an American that lives in Egypt and he's got his theories on the pyramids. And I'm traveling with him and I was like, there's a turd on the pyramid over there. And he's like, yeah, yeah, you know. And I was like, a tourist? And he goes, no, not tourist. And so, you know, the poop on the pyramid is pretty much like, that's kind of my mental, that's burned into my brain, my image of Egyptology. In some aspects, like when it's isolated to Egypt, I can't speak for all the other missions that operate in Egypt, but what were you about to say?

• 1:26:15Joe Rogan?

  I don't remember. Where were we at when I was gonna interrupt? Oh, this is what I remember. What is your opinion about Christopher Dunn's ideas?

• 1:26:26Speaker 02

  I don't know. I really don't know, man.

• 1:26:28Joe Rogan?

  For people that don't know, Christopher Dunn has a theory that the Great Pyramid was actually some sort of a power generator.

• 1:26:39Joe Rogan?

  That it produced hydrogen gas.

• 1:26:41Speaker 02

  I don't know. I mean, you know, I know that the Egyptians, it's obvious that they have technology that is lost to us today.

• 1:26:49Joe Rogan?

  The drill holes.

• 1:26:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:51Joe Rogan?

  The way they cut the concrete, or the, excuse me, the granite.

• 1:26:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:57Speaker 02

  But, you know, I really don't know. As far as the, you know, like the manufacturing aspects, the engine, I guess, the engineering, the potential usages of these artifacts, it's not really like my specialty. Like, you know, like these vases are, oh, this is a heavy one. These vases are fascinating, but, you know, I guess my interest would be studying like, what can I, what can we learn about the context around these things? And how they existed in their world and how people interacted. More so than, you know, what did these things, what were they actually used for, I guess? And how exactly were they made? And so I, I just don't know about Chris Dunn's theory. You know, I, I guess the first thing that comes to my mind is like, well, you know, most of the pyramid is limestone and the interior is granite.

• 1:27:42Speaker 02

  I, I hear people talk about how like the makeup of the granite could be conductive in some way. But man, it's just, it's like the farthest thing from my set of, of knowledge.

• 1:27:51Joe Rogan?

  Right. It is absolutely fascinating though, because if he's accurate, if he, if he's on to it, like, boy, does that change everything?

• 1:27:59Speaker 02

  Mm hmm.

• 1:27:59Joe Rogan?

  And if those Italian scientists that believe that there's literally a two kilometer deep structure underneath the pyramid, if they're correct, like, boy.

• 1:28:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:28:10Joe Rogan?

  The whole thing is like, what are we even talking about now?

• 1:28:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, I find that fascinating. Um, I, I think that the, the main drama around those scans was, you know, when the scans came out, I don't think anybody was denying what was seen on the scans. I think it was like, they, they had the, um, they had the artistic interpretations of the art concepts that they produced of what they thought was in there. And I think a lot of people were like, whoa.

• 1:28:33Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, that was a little weird.

• 1:28:34Speaker 02

  Cause, cause even me, I, I was a little bit like, huh? When, when they, they made a, uh, they made an art concept of it and they took the king's chamber and the relieving chambers in the great pyramid and superimposed it onto the middle pyramid. And they, they, uh, I guess quintupled it, like they made five of them. And I was thinking like, why, why, why do that? Like you're kind of, you're kind of undermining what your scan is when you're creating like a fantasy image because, um.

• 1:29:02Joe Rogan?

  You're getting ahead of your skills.

• 1:29:03Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're, you're getting ahead of yourself because, you know, we need to do the whole scan again, but you need to have tests. So like, uh, Luis Alvarez, are you familiar with him? He worked on the, on the Manhattan Project with Oppenheimer. And after the war in the fifties or in the sixties, uh, he got to go to Egypt and he scanned in the Kafer Pyramid. He did the Muon scans. And when he was in there, they tested, uh, they tested it all before. So he was able to scan up through the pyramid and he got the pinnacle of the pyramid and he got all four corners. And so they tested it and they did it several times just to confirm that what they were getting was right. And. I think the Muhon scan only scanned like nineteen percent of the pyramid. This is the sixties. So, but they didn't find anything, but the Stanford project came the next decade and

• 1:29:46Speaker 02

  they found subterranean chambers under Coffers Pyramid. There's one like sixty-nine feet down and another one a hundred and twenty feet down. Huge chambers, bigger than the chambers inside the pyramid. And so, yeah, I mean, I guess we just have to wait and see what's gonna happen. And I know that the scanned pyramids guys, the ones who found the void above the Grand Gallery in the Great Pyramid, I know they're interested in this now and they're gonna verify if this is true or not. And, yeah, I'm interested in seeing how this goes. This could be a big year, man. If they actually drill into that void above the Grand Gallery, that's gonna be a big deal.

• 1:30:26Joe Rogan?

  What do you think's in that void?

• 1:30:30Speaker 02

  I have no idea. You know, the-

• 1:30:31Joe Rogan?

  It's pretty big, right? It's the size of two semi trucks?

• 1:30:34Speaker 02

  It's, it's the same size or bigger than the Grand Gallery itself. And the Grand Gallery, when you go in, it's a huge building. Or, you know, you're inside a building inside of the pyramid. And it's as big or bigger than that. And, you know, the most conservative explanation is that it's an open interior that served as a ramp where they were pulling the blocks up higher up to the top. Nobody really knows exactly how they were built. And the angle of that Grand Gallery is really, really steep. I don't know that you could pull an eighty-ton granite block up an angle that steep. It seems like everyone who's an expert in that, you know, who studies independently is like, no, you're never

• 1:31:15Speaker 02

  gonna pull, never gonna pull weight up. To be honest, I have no idea. You know, I'm, I was fascinated when I heard an Egyptologist, when I was in Egypt in January, and I was asking him, what do you think that they're gonna find in that void? And he was like, he was telling me, I think that that's where Kufu is buried. And I was like, whoa, okay, really? So you actually think that he's still in the pyramid? And he was like, yeah, I think, I think all the rest of it was a decoy. And I think that his son, who's able to continue his legacy, like permanently sealed him in that, in that tomb. And I was like, that's- That's fascinating. And I said, you know, there's other voids that they found too. What do you think of those? And so we're standing on this felucca at 1 a.m. on the Nile and we're just, you know, shooting the shit. And he was like, I have something to show you.

• 1:31:58Speaker 02

  And he pulls out his phone and he was like, I cannot send to you, but I will show you. For one second, he showed me a photo of the inside of a chamber that I've never, I hadn't seen before. And it hasn't been published yet. I'll let you know when it comes out. But it's burned into my mind. It's from the floor, shooting across the room. All you can see is two walls meeting each other and a roof. And I said, that's in the Great Pyramid? He goes, and he was like, and he wouldn't share it with me. I didn't want to press him too much. But

• 1:32:29Joe Rogan?

  I almost stole his phone. Give me that phone, motherfucker. Shut up. You can't keep this? Fuck out of here.

• 1:32:36Speaker 02

  Well, you know, man, that's happening all over the world. Like this delay of information is all over the world. Do you remember the tunnels that came out? Or the, maybe it's in November. The headlines that, no. Yeah, it was in November. The headlines that came out about the tunnels that were found under Cusco in Peru? That connect to Soseywaman and they go underneath the Coroconcha?

• 1:32:58Joe Rogan?

  They knew about that a long time ago.

• 1:32:59Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. It's documented.

• 1:33:02Speaker 02

  In the fall of last year, I made friends with the head archaeologist at that site. And one early morning at like 4 a.m., he took me down inside part of the tunnels. And, yeah, I was in there before it all came out. And he took me into, so all these archaeologists, they like live on site. And these are all Inca people. So they believe that they're studying their ancestral heritage. These are really good people. And I'm in their, you know, shoddy little home that's on the archaeological site. I mean, they probably make no money. But they're just, they're just so passionate about this. And they feel like they're doing something that's like one of the most important things anybody in the world is doing. And have you been to Peru?

• 1:33:43Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:33:43Speaker 02

  When you go to Cusco, man, the sacred valley, it's, it has something there that not even Egypt has. I don't know how to explain it.

• 1:33:49Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:33:50Speaker 02

  It's It's a sacred place. It's like the Sacred Valley is exactly right. It's a magical kind of place. Manchucu, you should book two days when you go because you're gonna get rained on on one of the days. But you're out there on this, you know, 7,800-foot mountain top. And it's so steep, you cannot see the bottom when you're looking over the side of the city. And you're just in this sacred place in the middle of the Amazon, up in the mountains. And it's just a different place, man. It has a type of charm that like not even Egypt has. Egypt, you're gonna be blown away by the structures. You're gonna be blown away by the pyramids and the temples. But this is something else. It has an otherworldly, like you feel like you're on some kind of like Star Wars planet when you're there. It's fascinating.

• 1:34:34Joe Rogan?

  Because of the environment?

• 1:34:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's like the environment. You know, I wondered if it was, when you're in Cusco, you're at 11,500-foot elevation. And I wondered if I was like missing oxygen to my brain and I was like, whoa, this place is awesome, you know? But no, it really is amazing. And the people are so nice. And so anyways...

• 1:34:55Joe Rogan?

  Manchucu is a trip. Like what was that?

• 1:34:59Speaker 02

  I think it was very similar to Alexandria's Library. I think it was a place of study where people are studying the stars. Archaeo astronomy is like the next frontier of archaeology. It's the way that people, it's the way that ancient people are interacting with the night sky and what they know about the cosmos. You know, the Maya were calculating like millions of years into the future and millions of years into the past. And they had this numerology system that's just amazing. But anyways, so I'm at Sockse Wamon and they take me into this back room. And they show me all these bodies that they pulled, I probably shouldn't be saying this, but whatever. They show me all these bodies that they pulled out of the tunnels.

• 1:35:39Speaker 02

  And it was these, they thought that they were like sacred guardians of whatever is inside of this tunnel. And these are all buried at Sockse Wamon. So there's like skulls everywhere. There's boxes and all these bones. There was like an obsidian mirror with like a little stick on it, a bunch of gold artifacts in this room. It was just boxes upon boxes upon boxes upon boxes. And I haven't seen any of this stuff published yet. So this is how much of a delay there is on archaeology.

• 1:36:06Joe Rogan?

  What is the delay in that stuff? Because it would seem like... Such an enormous discovery. It's football season and Uber Eats is delivering deals every game day. This week, buy a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free on Uber Eats. When your watch party gets hungry, order in and keep everyone's attention where it matters on the game. Order a four-piece signature chicken from Popeyes and get another one free. No matter who scores big tonight, you'll score great deals on Uber Eats all season long because it's not football without food. Popeyes offer, valid through November 1st, add eligible menu item to order prior to checkout.

• 1:36:50Joe Rogan?

  Taxes, fees, and terms apply. Product availability varies by region. Exclusions may apply. See app for details. This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. There are so many people out there who swear by the Pod by Eight Sleep. The smart mattress cover that goes on your existing mattress. But if you've been on the fence, now's the time to get on board. Why? Because they've just released Pod 6. I'm gonna make it real simple for you. Here are the Pod 6 headline upgrades. It's a 50% smaller hub, so it'll fit under most bed frames. It features 20% faster temperature relief with nine times more biometric sensors in the cover.

• 1:37:31Joe Rogan?

  It starts at just $1,999, the lowest starting price Eight Sleep has ever offered. And if that's not enough, this Pod cools each side of the bed independently from 55 to 110 degrees Fahrenheit. Use code ROGEN at eightsleep.com/rogan for up to $200 off the Pod 6.

• 1:37:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, um, what I think it is, is, well, you kind of have, I would, I would say it's a mix of a lot of different things. Um, let's say, let's say the most non-malicious side is that these countries are totally dependent upon tourism. And they want to prepare like a media, you know, like a big media buzz to drive tourism. So they want to do it at the right time of the year. And then it'll inspire people to book their trip down, down to the Sacred Valley. You know, it's all, it's about, it's a money-making machine, right? It's, it's, it's their biggest draw to come and see this part of the world.

• 1:38:31Joe Rogan?

  It seems so counterintuitive because new discoveries would make people want to visit.

• 1:38:36Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, they just want to hold it off to like the right part of the year. This is something I've heard in Peru, this is something I've heard in Egypt. You know, the, do you remember the tomb of Tutmos II that was just discovered recently? I heard about that, so let me think, that that came out two or three months ago, and when I was there in October, I had heard that it was found. So, so these things are happening way, way in advance. Now, the other side is, there's sort of this Zahi Was effect, like Ed Barnhart, my professor mentor, he wanted to study in Peru, whether or not the Inca or ancient Peruvians are

• 1:39:19Speaker 02

  like fusing these andesite stones together. So you've seen how they, how the stones like fit together in the same way that they do at the Valley Temple in Egypt, the red granite. So they're using this gray andesite, which is, sometimes the andesite is harder than the granite in Egypt. And they're like morphing these stones together at impossible angles. I'm sure you've seen the 12-sided stone, and maybe you've seen the scoop marks on the side of the stone, where it looks like the outside of the stone was softened at one point, and you could like scrape a piece off. And so it's Dr. Barnhart's idea that somehow, well, and it's not without evidence. So in the Chilean desert, the Inca are building upon, the Inca Empire were building upon roads that went all across South America.

• 1:40:03Speaker 02

  And these roads weren't initially, the foundations weren't laid by the Inca, they may have been improved by the Inca, but they go back to the Wari Empire, which predates the Inca, and it almost certainly goes back further than this. The southernmost point of these highways, it goes off into the Chilean desert, into the Atacama Desert, and they just kind of disappear into the desert. And for a long time, it's been a mystery of, what the heck are these Peruvians doing down in the Chilean desert? What is it down there? What's a resource that they need? But there are these, there are these acid deposits that are down in that desert, and somehow they invented, somehow they invented this clay pottery that whatever they used to make it, the acid wouldn't melt through the pottery, so you could carry it.

• 1:40:44Speaker 02

  There's evidence of this at Tiwanaku as well, which I'm sure you've heard of Tiwanaku. There's evidence of this acid at Tiwanaku and people would talk about how the acid could like melt the stones. And sometimes they talk about how like bird poop or bird, I don't even know, like throw up or whatever could melt the stone. And so there's all these, you know, ideas or these myths about the stones melting. Anyways, Dr. Barnhart's idea was that was that those roads go down there because they are mining and collecting the acids and they're bringing it back and they're softening the outside of the stone. And rather than carving the stones to fit together, they're setting the stones on top of each other and it's creating its own morph, if that makes sense. The stones are morphing together.

• 1:41:26Speaker 02

  And so he, there's two reasons, but you see them a lot as to why he thinks this. There was an earthquake in 1650 that destroyed the Spanish city that was sitting on top of the Inca city of Cusco. So you had this ancient city that's there and the stones are so massive the Spanish couldn't tear them all down. So they just gave up and they built new buildings over it. In 1650, this horrific earthquake knocked down the Spanish city and ancient buildings were still there, hadn't moved at all. In 1950, another earthquake happened, knocked down the Spanish city and the ancient city is still standing. So now these are preserved as, you know, cultural heritage monuments and they don't build over them.

• 1:42:06Speaker 02

  But they like, like a Starbucks or a KFC or a McDonald's will be built inside of an ancient Inca building. You'll walk in and it's like megalithic stonework inside of KFC. It's amazing. Wow. But it's everywhere. It's the whole city. It's the whole modern city. When you go one day, you just walk, walk, walk, walk, walk. One of the projects we're gonna do for the Maya Exploration Center is I'm gonna go down to Cusco for a month and I'm gonna make the world's first map of where all the stones actually are. There is a map that tourists get, but it's a shitty map. It's not even accurate. So that's one of my projects is I'm gonna map all of these stones and where they are around Cusco and it'll be like on an app or a website or something where you can find it. But yeah, it's just, it's incredible. So they preserve the stones.

• 1:42:51Speaker 02

  And so when you're walking around, getting back to why

• 1:42:54Joe Rogan?

  Can we see some images of the stones?

• 1:42:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:42:56Joe Rogan?

  That would indicate that they possibly were melted? Like, what's like the best?

• 1:43:01Speaker 02

  Oh, man, how could you search this up? Uh, maybe just look up, uh, um, Cusco Cyclopean Stones. We may be able to find an image. And I could show you something on my phone. I know I've got it on my phone.

• 1:43:11Joe Rogan?

  Okay.

• 1:43:12Speaker 02

  Um, uh, maybe I could send it to you, but I'll actually send you the photo.

• 1:43:16Joe Rogan?

  And, uh, Not these, not these.

• 1:43:18Speaker 02

  So, so some of these are from Saksewam. Uh, okay, so to the top left here, so that's the 12-sided stone. It's on this building. When you walk around this building, um, the name is escaping me right now. It's the Palace of, it's the Palace of something. When you walk around this, uh, when you walk around this building, you're gonna see some of the stones where an earthquake has separated. So you have two stones that sit perfectly on top of each other. Well, and when an earthquake happens, one of these stones will slide back. And when it does, you'll see an angle that ramps up like this up to the exterior. And so what it looks like is the stone is placed on top and it smushed the stone down. Does that make sense?

• 1:43:55Joe Rogan?

  Whoa.

• 1:43:55Speaker 02

  Um, man, I, I, if we searched hard enough, we could find it here. I, I will send you this photo. I've got it on my phone.

• 1:44:02Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:44:04Speaker 02

  Yeah, uh, yeah.

• 1:44:07Joe Rogan?

  Just that idea is fascinating.

• 1:44:09Speaker 02

  And so

• 1:44:10Joe Rogan?

  That it melted into place.

• 1:44:12Speaker 02

  Yeah. Oh, uh, okay, um.

• 1:44:16Joe Rogan?

  So they cut these stones, used acid, this is the theory. Is that it right there?

• 1:44:20Speaker 02

  No.

• 1:44:21Joe Rogan?

  No? So they cut these stones, use the acid and set them in to seal so that there is no gap in between the stones. So it's not that they have to carve it perfectly, but rather that the weight of the other stone

• 1:44:34Speaker 02

  They get it roughly the right shape and then, and then lay them down on top of each other. Um, it's on, it's on one of these walls. So that one you have your cursor on, that's fake. I walked up to it and it's like hollow. I was like tapping on it. It's just a fake wall. Um, it's some, I don't know why in Cusco they have some, they, they, some people will decorate their walls as to make them look like they're cyclopean walls. And you go knock on it and it's like plastic. But there's tons and tons and tons and tons. The majority of the city is just the ancient city.

• 1:45:01Joe Rogan?

  What is this? Inca stone monument? Irreproportably damaged? It's like someone cut out a piece of it.

• 1:45:05Speaker 02

  Yeah, somebody went up to it in the middle of the night, like a drunk tourist, and started hitting it with a hammer, the 12-sided stone, which is like the most sacred stone in Cusco. Yeah.

• 1:45:15Joe Rogan?

  People are fucking Gross.

• 1:45:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, okay, so you see this long, the stone of the 12 angles, that one right there in the middle? That stone is in that alley right there, if you could find it. But, you know, I'll send it to you.

• 1:45:28Joe Rogan?

  It's so crazy, there's a building on top of that.

• 1:45:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:45:32Joe Rogan?

  That's what's so weird about it, like, look at this stupid house that's falling apart, that's on top of these ancient stones.

• 1:45:39Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's crazy, man. It's an amazing place, you'll walk around and just be consistently stunned by the amount of stonework that's there and what they are able to achieve. And this kind of cyclopean stonework, where the stones all have these, you know, no two stones are exactly alike. You see that stonework in one place in Egypt, which is at the Valley Temple, next to the Sphinx. And you don't see that, as far as I know, recreated anywhere else. But in Peru, it's everywhere.

• 1:46:15Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:46:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, so that's kind of a repaired wall, you can see that it fell apart and they put it back up. But these are mortarless buildings. Oh, hey, if you go just one below, the one that you're at right now, so this is the Temple of the Moon at Machu Picchu, look at the size of the stone wall. That's one stone on the lower part of it. And you can see that the size of the stones that are together, as earthquakes have rattled the city, the wall still kind of holds together, it bends and holds together, completely mortarless, it's just fascinating. And on top of that, Machu Picchu itself, 60% of the megalithic construction work is in the foundation of Machu Picchu. So it's underneath what you're seeing.

• 1:46:58Speaker 02

  And there are areas that are roped off, where you can go down, like, underneath the city, but it's all roped off and I don't know a lot about it. I got a little bit of a photo of where you can go down into these, I think they're like man-made labyrinths that are underneath the city, but there's a lot more there. And so when you're there, you just get this, like, intrigue. And I was curious how Egypt would stack up, because I did... Peru last year and then the day I landed from Peru, I had headed off to Egypt for a month and then

• 1:47:29Joe Rogan?

  Damn, what a life.

• 1:47:30Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:47:31Joe Rogan?

  You got a great life, dude. That's cool.

• 1:47:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, thank you.

• 1:47:34Joe Rogan?

  That's really cool.

• 1:47:35Speaker 02

  It's just, uh...

• 1:47:36Joe Rogan?

  How far is this from Nazca?

• 1:47:38Speaker 02

  Very far. Peru is deceivingly big. Peru is like half the size of the United States.

• 1:47:44Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:47:44Speaker 02

  It's really, really big.

• 1:47:46Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 1:47:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:47Joe Rogan?

  I had no idea.

• 1:47:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, the Nazca Lines are really, really, really far away. Um, it's very hard to do a... You can't do a tour of like all of Peru. It's too big. It would be like, it would be like if you were gonna go on a United States tour, you would have to pick a place to go because it's just so massive. Um, usually when people like do a tour of Peru, they'll pick like Paracas, Nazca, you know, you pick these desert coastline areas and you go see that because to get from there to the Sacred Valley is quite a journey. Yeah, yeah, it would take, it takes like a day and a half of consistently traveling to actually get there.

• 1:48:26Joe Rogan?

  Have you seen the new scans of the Nazca Lines where they, they've found new petroglyphs?

• 1:48:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. The, um, man, there's gonna be so much like that that's gonna be found. People are gonna be able to-

• 1:48:36Joe Rogan?

  What is all that stuff?

• 1:48:37Speaker 02

  Fly these... Well, you know, it's, it's amazing like how exactly, one, what's the inspiration for making these giant, uh... You know, the sophistication is in the planning and the math behind how exactly you make these, uh... How exactly you make these images in the ground that are miles wide and very intricate. Like if you look at the spider, the spider, there's a spider there that's anatomically correct for a local spider that's there. And there's some aspect about the spider and a detail that they incorporate that you would only know if you were like really studying these little creatures and wanted to recreate it on a massive scale. But the legs, man, they're, they're mapping, I mean, look, this is,

• 1:49:16Speaker 02

  this is an enormous thing in the ground that if you don't have flight, you're never gonna be able to know that you did it, that you did it precisely, right? Or unless you had very meticulous planning and everything.

• 1:49:28Joe Rogan?

  But again, what's the inspiration for this?

• 1:49:30Speaker 02

  What's the inspiration? Why would you be doing this? What is this for?

• 1:49:33Joe Rogan?

  Why does it have that one leg that hooks off to the left?

• 1:49:36Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 1:49:37Joe Rogan?

  See that? That one lengthened piece? Very strange.

• 1:49:41Speaker 02

  Well, you know, the Nazca, they, um... The the exact timeline of of their civilization is a little bit blurry. But, I mean, they had they had disappeared more than a thousand years before the Spanish arrived.

• 1:49:54Joe Rogan?

  Jamie, can I ask you, what what is that all about? Why does it have all those additional lines? I don't, someone's doing different, I don't know. Is that just art? Yeah, I think they're making it on maybe one of those sand tables or something like that. That'd be a cool t-shirt.

• 1:50:07Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 1:50:07Joe Rogan?

  Um, there's other weird ones, like the one that looks like an astronaut.

• 1:50:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, he does. I actually think that that's a, I actually think that's a pulpa line, which is, uh, it's a different culture that does the same thing. If you if you look up pulpa lines, you may be able to find it.

• 1:50:21Joe Rogan?

  There's quite a few of them. Look at that one, the jester one, the one with the antenna on the upper left.

• 1:50:26Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, look at him.

• 1:50:27Joe Rogan?

  No, no, no, that, yeah, there it is. Like, that one.

• 1:50:30Speaker 02

  Where does that come from?

• 1:50:31Joe Rogan?

  Can't make it that big. Make it a little smaller, there you go. What is that? AI on covers. What's that? It says AI on covers.

• 1:50:38Speaker 02

  Oh, are they AI?

• 1:50:39Joe Rogan?

  Yes, but this is AI.

• 1:50:41Speaker 02

  Okay, I'm sorry, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:42Joe Rogan?

  This is the AI.

• 1:50:42Speaker 02

  Oh, hey, look at, look at the shark. Look at the shark on there. Isn't that cool? So you have seafaring, dude. Okay, do you know of Vinapu in in, uh, Easter Island? It's, I think it's called Vinapu. It's this platform building that on Easter Island with all the big heads. That is the exact same architecture as what we're seeing in Peru. These people are traveling out into the Pacific Ocean and back. You know, it just, it's, it's fascinating, man. Uh, Thor Heirdall with Contiki, he proved it. Yep, there we go. Yeah, so, you know, it's fallen apart, it's not the same stone, it's a, it's a local volcanic sandstone, I think. I don't think that this is basalt. It might be basalt, um, but it's a volcanic, it's a volcanic stone. I'm actually pretty sure it's basalt.

• 1:51:28Speaker 02

  It's made out of the same thing of of the Easter Island heads. So you have this Vinapu, but, uh, another project that that my exploration center is working on later this year is we're going down to, um...

• 1:51:42Speaker 02

  Make a new updated map, archaeological map of Easter Island, Rapa Nui. And I'm not going, but this is Dr. Barnhart doing it. And there's another site down on the remote end of the island where there's another structure like this that you never see mentioned. And so that we're going to document that and put that out. So there's no doubt that, I mean, these people are incredibly advanced, incredibly connected, incredibly intelligent, and it's just so mysterious. Okay, do you know of the Blythe Lines?

• 1:52:11Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:52:12Speaker 02

  Have you heard of this?

• 1:52:13Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:52:14Speaker 02

  Blythe, California. There are Nazca Lines up there.

• 1:52:16Joe Rogan?

  Really?

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, we should look this up. Yeah, so...

• 1:52:19Joe Rogan?

  Where's Blythe?

• 1:52:20Speaker 02

  Uh, I think it's right before you get to Nevada. You're like driving, so if you, you'll pass right by if you're driving from Las Vegas into California, I think. So Blythe Lines, yeah. We should, yeah, we should zoom in from Google Earth, this'll be cool.

• 1:52:34Joe Rogan?

  Where is it, Jimmy? It's on the 10. It's on the 10? I was trying, it's like right where my cursor is, so...

• 1:52:41Speaker 02

  Oh, so that's Blythe, California. You might be able to look up Blythe Lines.

• 1:52:44Joe Rogan?

  No, I did, but I was trying to show you where it was.

• 1:52:46Speaker 02

  Oh, okay, okay, I'm sorry.

• 1:52:47Joe Rogan?

  So I was trying to show you where it was. Oh, sorry. So these are the, oh, whoa!

• 1:52:50Speaker 02

  Yeah, they're huge.

• 1:52:51Joe Rogan?

  Whoa!

• 1:52:54Speaker 02

  So, dude, this is not...

• 1:52:56Joe Rogan?

  What the fuck is that?

• 1:52:58Speaker 02

  This, this is, I mean, to me, it's pretty obvious that there are people who are, and this is, they think that this is younger than the Nazca Lines, but even if it is, it's pretty obvious to me that you have traders and you have people who are very capable of traveling all up and down the Americas. It's all interconnected. And I...

• 1:53:20Joe Rogan?

  How many of these lines exist?

• 1:53:22Speaker 02

  Uh, it's, it's not really majorly studied, but I think that there's a few of these, of these images that are out there and more that are further off into the desert that some people have...

• 1:53:32Joe Rogan?

  One of them was a monkey. Yeah. How do they even know what monkeys are?

• 1:53:37Speaker 02

  Well, uh, okay, here's, that's a great, that's a great question. There-

• 1:53:41Joe Rogan?

  Were there monkeys in California?

• 1:53:43Speaker 02

  No, I doubt it. But there, um, an idea of how this could happen is, so at Teotihuacan, like I was talking to you, this is an hour north of Mexico City. There were monkeys that we have found that were in zoos in Teotihuacan, like, like dead monkeys that are buried. And this species of monkey is only found in the southern Amazon. So it's all the way up in northern Mexico. So all of these things are connected. Okay, another, another, Jamie, could we look up, uh, please?

• 1:54:12Joe Rogan?

  Just for clarity, that one was a Nasca line. The monkey was not in the California. Oh, okay, okay. That makes sense. Came up.

• 1:54:18Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 1:54:19Joe Rogan?

  Just to check.

• 1:54:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:54:20Joe Rogan?

  Those monkeys are in Peru.

• 1:54:21Speaker 02

  Well, even so, there are, there are Amazonian monkeys that are coming all the way up to-

• 1:54:25Joe Rogan?

  Let's see what the other blithe lines are. The article started showing different stuff because it was explaining what they were. So comparisons to Nasca. They're found in 1932 by a pilot. That's what I was trying to figure out, okay. So that's one of them? It looks like a giraffe. There's a fence around it. It could be a deer.

• 1:54:41Speaker 02

  Yeah, it could be a deer. But are deer, are, are deer out there?

• 1:54:45Joe Rogan?

  Quadruped, it says. Uh, well, there's deer in California for sure. There's probably be mule deer in that part of the country.

• 1:54:54Joe Rogan?

  Um, there certainly is in Nevada. Nevada has a big population of deer. Quadruped, it represents horses reintroduced, historical date sometime after the 1500s, so maybe some, they don't know when these- Scroll back up again, let me see that again.

• 1:55:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, they have no idea.

• 1:55:08Joe Rogan?

  I don't know if that's a horse.

• 1:55:09Speaker 02

  Doesn't look like a horse to me. I think you're right.

• 1:55:11Joe Rogan?

  The tail, though, is a lot, lot longer than a deer's.

• 1:55:13Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, a little, a deer, they've got the little tails.

• 1:55:16Joe Rogan?

  It's like a shitty artist horse. I was stumbling down something with the Olmec stuff, I think it was the Olmec.

• 1:55:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:55:22Joe Rogan?

  That there's a bunch, just because I see a zoom morphs here. There's a bunch of other weird rocks that had like, anthropomorphized animals playing on top of humans.

• 1:55:32Speaker 02

  Okay, do you know about, have you ever heard of were jaguars?

• 1:55:36Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 1:55:36Speaker 02

  Oh, dude. This is like, this is my shit. Okay, so were jaguars? It is another piece of evidence of at least, well, the lower part of North America connecting with the Amazon. Oh, dude. This is, this is badass. All right, so-

• 1:55:55Speaker 02

  So the very first, some of the first evidence that we have of people in the Americas. So you think of like, where do you, where do you imagine that people migrate into the Americas? Like, where do you think we would find the first evidence at?

• 1:56:06Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 1:56:12Joe Rogan?

  Well, I would imagine it'd be somewhere where the Olmecs were.

• 1:56:15Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, maybe so. Yeah, or, you know, traditionally, sure, sure. Traditionally, people think that maybe you would find it, you know, in Alaska, coming in.

• 1:56:27Speaker 02

  You know, people migrating over during or before and after the Ice Age.

• 1:56:31Joe Rogan?

  Sure.

• 1:56:31Speaker 02

  Or, I'm sorry, during and before the Ice Age. And then some people might think that, you know, you have Polynesians that are skipping across the Pacific that are coming into, but most of the time, it's west coast. You'd find, people think you'd find something out there. Some of the oldest evidence that we have are 30,000-year-old caves on the east side of the Amazon. On the east side, the opposite side of the Americas. As far away as you can possibly get from, you know, where people would have traditionally arrived in the Americas. Now, that evidence is constantly changing. There's constantly new things that are being found, like white sands. And there's, what, 100 and 150,000-year-old, like, bone tools or chisels that are being found, where people were cutting into woolly mammoth bones, you know, crazy stuff.

• 1:57:15Speaker 02

  But one of these old evidences is people in the Amazon 20,000 to 30,000 years ago, on the east coast in Brazil, on the Atlantic coast. And they have these, I think it may have been Teddy Roosevelt's granddaughter that found this. She was, she was a South American archaeologist. She was inspired to go to the Amazon. And so it's really interesting. In the Olmec realm, there's what's called a were-jaguar. It's just like a, it's like a werewolf spelt, you know, sort of the same. But you have this, you have these two different dichotomies in the Olmec world. You have the Olmec heads, which, by the way, I brought you a head.

• 1:57:55Joe Rogan?

  Ooh, nice. More stuff for this table.

• 1:58:01Joe Rogan?

  Sit right next to hecklefish.

• 1:58:06Speaker 02

  So this is made from basalt by the modern Olmec people.

• 1:58:09Joe Rogan?

  Whoa, that's cool.

• 1:58:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, super cool. So these guys.

• 1:58:14Joe Rogan?

  Thank you.

• 1:58:16Speaker 02

  These guys, we don't know who they are. We don't know exactly what they represent. Because they're, they're just guys with normal faces, you know. They're, they have Olmec faces, but they're all wearing this helmet. What the hell does the helmet mean? It could be two different things. It's a signature of their divine like rulership, like, like we think they might be kings. Somebody who can, you know, somebody who can commission a monument this big. This is a testament to his power. Or these are revered ballgame players, the Mesoamerican ballgame. I'm sure you've dove into this a little bit. Or it's both. That the, you know, the most masculine thing that you can be is a great Mesoamerican ballgame player, and that's the king. He wants to see himself out of it.

• 1:58:56Speaker 02

  It's the same thing as Marcus Aurelius' son, I'm forgetting his name, the, the really bad emperor. God, I can't remember his name, but anyways, he wanted to be seen like Hercules fighting in the, in the Colosseum. And so we think this might be a kind of similar thing. There's a whole different type of people that are existing in the Olmec realm. We can look up Olmec wear jaguar, please, Jamie. Thank you. And there's a whole different type of person. So here's one image. If you keep scrolling, you'll see images that are carved into, so this is a little bit of a better image right here, but sometimes when they're carved into jade and you can

• 1:59:36Speaker 02

  see the light reflecting off of it, you get a better, you get a better image of what these things really look like. So wear jaguar, Olmec, and maybe do jade. Oh yeah, there we go. Top, top right. Yeah, check that guy out. So that's a, so that's a human. That's not an animal. It is a human who has turned into the essence of a jaguar. And we see this everywhere, all over the Olmec world, but they're never the colossal heads. They're always in jade or they're smaller Olmec monuments. And sometimes the heads are.

• 2:00:11Speaker 02

  Sometimes the heads are maimed, like the head is just completely destroyed and there's these jaguar claws, claws that are carved into an Olmec face, like tearing apart its face, tearing apart the symbol that's on the top of their head. And so a lot of people wondered like, why are these scratch marks in all of these Olmec monuments? But all the scratch marks only appear in Olmec monuments that are not the ware jaguar. And so what I think, this is a little bit of the research I'm doing, and I'm writing a book on the Olmecs right now, is what I think is there's a feud between the rulers and the shamanic class. And I think that these ware jaguar people, these people who are taking some kind of hallucinogen, taking a psychedelic, and basically imbuing the essence of a jaguar

• 2:00:55Speaker 02

  in some strange, crazy way that we can't explain, these are feuding with each other. And when I'm in Mexico, and I'm in these museums, where you have these mushroom stone effigies that are all lined up, I'll ask a local archaeologist there, and I'll be like, so these mushrooms, do you think that these depict hallucinogens that they may have been taking to get high? Oh, no, no, no, no. No. I'm like, really? You don't, like, you look at all the crazy shit that ancient Americans are making. If you look at ancient American artwork anywhere, you can tell it's all like, mind bending stuff to look at. They're clearly, I think, they're being influenced by plants. Now, this ware jaguar isn't just isolated to the Olmec world, it also pops up at a

• 2:01:40Speaker 02

  place called Chaveen de Wantar. Have you ever heard of this? No. This is in the Andes, it's one of the oldest cities in the Andes. So before Chaveen, we can follow the DNA evidence of burials, like you can tell, okay, these people are younger, if we carbon date their bodies, that are buried underneath these temples, and they're related to these people that are older. So you're trying to piece together this DNA web, but it's very, very loose. So there's a place called, there's a culture called Caral Súper culture, and they are building pyramids before the Old Kingdom of Egypt ever even existed. This is, this is 5,500 years ago at least, on the coast of Peru, like, right on the beach, and there's like 15 huge pyramids out there. But this is a non-

• 2:02:24Speaker 02

  Pottery, non-artistic culture. So, we don't have pottery and we don't have art from them. And we don't have stone statues or anything like that. Just these structures. And from what we can tell, they keep getting hit by these apocalyptic storms. These tropical el ninios and el ninias that are just destroying their civilization. And they're trying to rebuild it again. And eventually, they say, "You know what? Forget this. We're moving up into the Andes." Well, when they move up into the Andes on Chavín de Huantar, they then come in contact with Amazonians. They meet Amazonians for the first time. And all of a sudden, these people, they have pottery, they have art, they have gods, they have a pantheon, they have stone statues, and they are ware jaguars. They are these shamanic people. Oh, this is from... Oh, is this on my X? Oh, cool.

• 2:03:09Speaker 02

  So, I posted about this today. So, these faces right here, these are on the side of the Temple of Chavín that faces east off into the Amazon. And when you look at Chavín pottery, it's the same as Amazonian pottery in the region. So, the people of the Andes, as soon as they interact with the Amazon, they acquire this religion, this culture, this iconography. They completely change as a people, and they start building the first structures that we know of that have interiors. Because before this, these pyramids that were out on the coastline, you're like walking on top of this big stone mound.

• 2:03:50Speaker 02

  But at Chavín, it's a huge, square-style building that has open doors that you can walk in through. And all of this happens as soon as they interact with Amazonians. And so, yeah, it's a huge structure. And the stones that make up the staircases, oh my god. Okay, have you seen... The name is escaping me right now. But Wanderin' Wolf went out there, Michael Collins, and he saw these big trilithon stones that are sitting on the side of the mountain in Peru. Do you remember this? Giant stones. That white stone is the same white stone that's used in the staircases and on the doorjams and the lintels here at Chavín. So, you see that the open door right there at the bottom?

• 2:04:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, so those white stones on the side? Those stones may have come from that quarry that he went and visited, where those gigantic trilithon, ballback-sized stones are.

• 2:04:45Joe Rogan?

  How far is that?

• 2:04:46Speaker 02

  It's really, really far from here. I don't know. That would be something good that I should know. So some of it's megalithic, some of it's decent size. It's really that front wall right there with that entrance, the steps going up to it. And then on the inside of the temple, you have the megalithic stonework. And then you have this, then you have this monolith on the inside. So you see this guy? Look at that. That's, that's, that's a human with jaguar fangs coming out of his mouth. And all of these tenon heads that are on the side of the temple, they're facing out towards the Amazon. It's telling us that this religion, this idea of these people who are somehow doing these shamanic practices, which I think are so clearly, so obviously, is plants, like

• 2:05:28Speaker 02

  ayahuasca or whatever it is, inducing these people into a state of consciousness where somehow they're taking on the effects of the jaguar. Like you and Paul Rosalie talked about this, and when he was talking about his, his experience with ayahuasca, I believe he said, and maybe it was on this show, that for a moment, like he shrunk down to the size of an atom and he's floating through the Amazon, and then all of a sudden, he was looking through like the eyes of a jaguar for a moment. And this is something that-

• 2:05:54Joe Rogan?

  Constant theme amongst people who've done ayahuasca.

• 2:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. So this is something that I think, I think it's, I think it's evidence. We can go, we can talk about this forever, but I think there's so much evidence. Oh, isn't this cool? Yeah.

• 2:06:06Joe Rogan?

  Well, there's also evidence that jaguars eat the same plants.

• 2:06:10Speaker 02

  Yes, yeah. Have you seen this on, what is it, Weird Nature? There's a documentary out there called Weird Nature.

• 2:06:17Joe Rogan?

  Where the jaguar's tripping?

• 2:06:17Speaker 02

  Yeah, and, and it like, it makes it, it makes it akin to like catnip, and it's like the jaguar also has its own-

• 2:06:25Joe Rogan?

  Well, this is why I brought this up. Terrence McGeady had a very fascinating theory about why ketamine in particular feels like an empty office building. And his, his theory, it's like ketamine is like you enter a realm, but there's no one there. And this is, by the way, he's talking about ketamine in like the 80s and 90s.

• 2:06:45Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 2:06:46Joe Rogan?

  His theory is that when you imbibe, when you take a psychedelic medicine, when you take any sort of psychedelic plant, mushroom, whatever it is, you're not just having an experience, you are also interacting with all of the experiences that have ever been had with these things. Which is one of the reasons why when people take certain psychedelics, they have very clear Egyptian iconography appears in their trip. And his belief, or his theory, was that it's far more complex than you're taking a psychedelic drug. You're taking this psychedelic that allows you to interact with all the experiences

• 2:07:31Joe Rogan?

  anyone has ever had with those.

• 2:07:33Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 2:07:34Joe Rogan?

  Including jaguars.

• 2:07:35Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:07:36Joe Rogan?

  Now, also, there's always been this conflict between the ruling class and the shamanic rituals. This is the Illusinian mysteries. They shut all that stuff down. Wouldn't it make sense that the claw marks would represent the battle between the shamans and these ruling classes? Who of course, don't want people tripping and opening their mind and questioning authority and trying to restructure everything and like, it'd be a huge problem if you were like a Zahi Hawass guy, trying to keep the lid on everything and just keep control and power and, and then you got all these people that are tripping balls that like have completely different ideas that you, you have to silence that. Well, what's the, what's the issue here?

• 2:08:19Joe Rogan?

  The issue is, these guys, they get together in a circle and they drink this stuff and then they start having these wacky ideas. Let's put a stop to that. Let's put it the same way they did with the Illusinian mysteries, the same way they've done countless times. Shamans that were like the whole Santa Claus things where he's coming down the chimney. Why was that? Was it because Siberian shamans were ostracized? They were, they were forced to actually not go through the doorways because they had to sneak into people's homes. So they came down chimneys. This is the theory.

• 2:08:48Speaker 02

  Oh, that's fascinating.

• 2:08:49Joe Rogan?

  Which is like, why the fuck would Santa come down a chimney? Like, this doesn't make any sense.

• 2:08:52Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:08:53Joe Rogan?

  Well, that was the idea, like Santa's a shaman. Also, Santa, at least in modern depictions, has the exact same coloration as the Amadina mouskaria mushroom.

• 2:09:02Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 2:09:03Joe Rogan?

  You've never seen the comparison, she's Santa and the mushroom?

• 2:09:05Speaker 02

  No, no, no.

• 2:09:06Joe Rogan?

  The fascinating comparison, and this is also hotly debated, you know, they're saying, no, well, Coca-Cola is the ones that made them red and white, the Santa Clauses.

• 2:09:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:14Joe Rogan?

  Maybe, but there's old pictures of Christmas images that always include elves and Amanita muscaria mushrooms. There's old Christmas cards from like the turn of the century. There's old like Merry Christmas, it's fucking mushrooms, there's mushrooms everywhere.

• 2:09:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:09:33Joe Rogan?

  So mushrooms have a mycorrhizal relationship with coniferous trees, particularly Amanita muscaria. You would find them underneath pine trees, the same way you find brightly colored presents under Christmas trees. In order to dry them, they would pick these mushrooms and hang them in the trees, so they would air dry, just like ornaments on a tree.

• 2:09:58Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:09:59Joe Rogan?

  There's so many parallels, it's really weird. The Santa was a mushroom one is a weird one. It's a really weird one, because there's a ton of the, like, why are we so interested in fucking pine trees? Why is it, well, those trees had this very connected relationship, which, with those mushrooms.

• 2:10:18Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, you know, I find that.

• 2:10:20Joe Rogan?

  See if you can find some of them ancient pictures of, uh, Christmas, ancient Merry Christmas images, where this is like.

• 2:10:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:10:27Joe Rogan?

  Look, that, look, look at that shaman, that shaman to the left, go back to, scroll back, look out, look at that. Siberian shaman looks exactly like the coloration.

• 2:10:37Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:10:37Joe Rogan?

  Of an Amanita muscaria. Now go to that Merry Christmas image that you have there right next to your cursor, look at that, Amanita muscaria. A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, Amanita muscaria image. These, uh, women with good times Christmas, or these children, rather, with good times Christmas.

• 2:10:54Speaker 02

  Have you ever tried these mushrooms?

• 2:10:55Joe Rogan?

  Yes, didn't work.

• 2:10:57Speaker 02

  Really?

• 2:10:57Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. I think there's, well, McKenna didn't have a good experience with them either. And there's, there's a lot of thoughts that he had about whether or not they were genetically variable, whether or not they're geographically and even seasonally variable, that you're not dealing with the same mushrooms. Sort of like, you know, there's different version, like, obviously manipulated, but there's a very different version of banana that we're enjoying today.

• 2:11:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:11:25Joe Rogan?

  Versus the wild banana.

• 2:11:26Speaker 02

  Oh, corn too.

• 2:11:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:28Speaker 02

  Maze, oh my gosh, so different.

• 2:11:30Joe Rogan?

  Lot of different plants of like similar history. It's, I mean fungus is a very different thing, right? Cause fungus actually breathe air. They're not plants. They're much, much closer to animals than they are to plants.

• 2:11:43Speaker 02

  Fascinating.

• 2:11:44Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, they're real weird. And they're also really weird that they seem to be like the internet for plants. Like the micro-risa relationship and the fact that they have this very bizarre network of mycelium that's under the ground. Like the largest living organism is a mushroom colony that exists, I believe in the Pacific Northwest.

• 2:12:04Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 2:12:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, see if you can find that. Yeah, so instead of like saying, oh, there's a mushroom that pops out of the ground. No, that's like the fruiting body of the entire thing. And the entire thing is enormous.

• 2:12:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:12:18Joe Rogan?

  And it's communicating with plants. It's helping the plants distribute and share resources. It's helping them get information. It's very strange. You know, Paul Stamets is like the, the best guy to talk to about this stuff. He's a, a mycologist and that, he actually gave me that big ass mushroom at the end of the table.

• 2:12:37Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 2:12:37Joe Rogan?

  That's a mushroom. Yeah. It's weird. They're weird.

• 2:12:41Speaker 02

  You, you know, this, this whole conversation.

• 2:12:44Joe Rogan?

  Here, it is the largest organism on earth is a fungus. The blue whale's big, but nowhere near as huge as a sprawling fungus in eastern Oregon. Yeah.

• 2:12:52Speaker 02

  Holy crap.

• 2:12:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, and again, it fucking breathes air.

• 2:12:57Speaker 02

  Could be as ancient as eight hun- as eight thousand six hundred and fifty years.

• 2:13:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:13:03Speaker 02

  Good night.

• 2:13:03Joe Rogan?

  Good night. Wild, wild stuff. And, you know, this is what we know about, right? Like, what about, what the fuck is in the Amazon?

• 2:13:12Speaker 02

  Oh, my god, man. Well, okay, okay, so two things there as far as what's in the Amazon. First, think about how, let's just talk about North America above Mesoamerica. So like, let's just, uh, let's just include like the modern day United States. Think about all the tribes that existed here, how complicated these histories are. You know, Squanto is born in the early sixteen hundreds, uh, among these tribes in Massachusetts. And when he comes back, he forms this thing called the Wampanoag Confederation, whatever, whatever. Just in that little area, there's all these different cultures with their own history, their own knowledge and everything. That's one little part of Massachusetts. Now, think about the rest of the country and how vast and sprawling and intricate and how deep that history really goes.

• 2:13:57Speaker 02

  And you can just, you could place the United States inside the Amazon. That's how big the Amazon is.

• 2:14:02Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:14:02Speaker 02

  And we just refer to natives, tribes who lived in the Amazon as Amazonians. But it's got, it's so much more complicated than just that. Now, the next thing is, this whole conversation about, talking about the Were Jaguar. You know, I get a lot of, uh, I get a lot of flack for this, for this topic because, um, you know, you have, let's just call it like boomer archaeologists who have this knee jerk reaction to psychedelics and hallucinogens. Because it's so ingrained in them that like, all drugs are bad, as if all drugs are the same. You know what I mean?

• 2:14:32Joe Rogan?

  Right.

• 2:14:33Speaker 02

  And, um, I've been talking to this, uh, I was in Mexico last year and we were in the Yucatan. And I was there with an archaeologist from the Midwest. And he was an archaeo astronomer, um, which is, like I was saying earlier, it's a guy who studies the way that, I think it's like pueblo ancestral, uh, tribes would have interacted with the night sky and studied the night sky. And I was like, I asked him, I said, okay, so what kind of hallucinogens do you think they would have had? And I think he told me like peyote and cannabis and stuff like that. And I was like, okay, so have you ever, um, and, you know, we were, like, every night we would, we'd get together and we'd all smoke. And just talk about ancient history and stuff. You know, you come up with-

• 2:15:12Speaker 02

  So many interesting ideas and perspectives and points of view, you know, when you smoke with like it like an actual purpose and you're trying to, you know, think, I'm sure you know very well I'm talking about. And um, I'm, and so he's sitting around with all of us and he doesn't want, you know, he's, he's not interested. And I'm like, I'm like, so you've been studying archaeology for this long. Uh, have you ever tried cannabis or peyote or anything that's up there? I think there's another one called Detura. Have you ever heard of this?

• 2:15:37Joe Rogan?

  That one's supposed to be very weird.

• 2:15:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:15:39Joe Rogan?

  McKenna had terrible experiences with that.

• 2:15:41Speaker 02

  Oh, really? Well, maybe.

• 2:15:42Joe Rogan?

  It's a completely, it disassociates you. He was having a conversation with a guy in a market and he realized in the middle of the conversation, the guy thought that they were uh, in his apartment.

• 2:15:51Speaker 02

  Oh.

• 2:15:52Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like it does weird things.

• 2:15:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, it might explain why Teotihuacan civilization and all their iconography is so terrifying. Like if you look up, uh, the great goddess of Teotihuacan, it's these guys with handbags picking, uh, picking this Detura and like putting them in their handbags.

• 2:16:09Joe Rogan?

  Oh, boy.

• 2:16:10Speaker 02

  And uh, yeah, yeah.

• 2:16:10Joe Rogan?

  Oh, so yeah, that's a weird one.

• 2:16:12Speaker 02

  And so their, their whole, their whole civilization is like very dark and scary. But I asked this archaeologist, I said, okay, have you ever gone out and studied the stars? You know, from the Native American point of view, while you're smoking cannabis or you take peyote and he's like, oh, no, I, I wouldn't do that. And I'm like, you have committed your entire life to studying this ancient culture that you know very well was studying the stars and taking hallucinogens. And you, as someone who's supposed to be an expert in this field, you don't want to put yourself in the shoes of these people. I was like, I was like, dude, if you laid out at night with all, everything you know about the Pueblo ancestral people and you smoked weed for the first time,

• 2:16:52Speaker 02

  or you, uh, did peyote or something, you stayed up and looking at the stars, you might have an epiphany about something that you've never realized, because your brain's just operating in a different way than it normally does. And, uh, he was very slow to like, you know, uh, to be open to this idea. And, you know, the Zahi thing kind of reminded me of this is like, you know, he has preconceived ideas about his world and his personal beliefs that interact with the archaeology, you know? And so it's really hard for us to study the ancient world. From a completely unbiased point of view, because you have so many preconceived ideas about your modern world that influence your archaeology.

• 2:17:29Speaker 02

  And that's why the widely, uh, that's why there's no widely accepted, uh, or it's not widely accepted among archaeologists. That Native Americans were heavily influenced by hallucinogens. I really think it's because so many of these people are, you know, older archaeologists that have a knee jerk reaction to drugs of any kind. And they couldn't possibly fathom the reality that the culture they spent their life studying are all doing hallucinogens all the time. And that's

• 2:17:55Joe Rogan?

  Yeah unquestionably, unquestionably.

• 2:17:57Speaker 02

  It's totally obvious. It's completely obvious. But, um, yeah, it's

• 2:18:01Joe Rogan?

  Well, it's also these people that haven't had these experiences, so they don't know what the effects would be.

• 2:18:06Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:18:06Joe Rogan?

  So they're, they're basically just guessing.

• 2:18:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:18:08Joe Rogan?

  And a lot of it is based on just say no propaganda from the fucking eighties.

• 2:18:12Speaker 02

  It really is, man. I, I was telling my, uh, I was telling my wife this, like, I didn't, you know, I don't smoke a lot. Uh, when I do, I'm like out in Big Bend, you know, out looking at the stars and stuff. And every time I smoke, it's like some kind of purpose, like, you know, I'm, I'm in like some kind of sacred place. And, and I don't do anything harder than, than just smoke cannabis, but whenever I do, I have some kind of realization about myself personally. You know, like the first time, uh, I don't know, six or seven years ago, when I first smoked, I was laying up, looking at the night sky. And we had taken some photos out in the desert and I was looking at myself and I put on a little bit of weight. And as I was looking at myself, I had disassociated and I was like, this person does not represent the brain that's in my mind. I need to lose some damn weight. You know, I had this realization about myself.

• 2:18:53Speaker 02

  The last time, uh, I was out, uh, I was out in Big Bend, laying under the stars in the middle of the desert. And, uh, and I had this like realization that, you know, all the time I spend traveling and, and I get to see so many amazing, uh, ancient sites. And meet so many cool people and I'm just constantly go, go, go, go, go, go, like I'm trying to just make this life work. And I had this realization that the most important thing I do is Is make dinner for my wife and take my dog on walks. And I had, I would have never had that like epiphany like dude, all this stuff is really cool, but it's for fun. And this is the stuff that you love. Your purpose is to take your dog on walks and spend time with your wife. And one day it's gonna be to spend time with your kids.

• 2:19:36Speaker 02

  And every time I go into it with this idea that I hope that I have some kind of realization, I always do. And, um, and it's just like, I have this, I know that ancient plant medicine is like the key to unlocking so much of the ancient world. And, um, and, uh, so.

• 2:19:53Joe Rogan?

  To ignore that knowing that they imbibed, to ignore that knowing that it was a part of these sacred rituals. It's kinda silly, especially when you deal with the Amazon and ayahuasca.

• 2:20:04Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, right?

• 2:20:05Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, I mean, if you're gonna be in a place where you wanna completely convene with nature. Like, that's the place, like, that's the place. And if you, there's this insanely profound hallucinogen. You know, that the brain produces endogenously, that can be extracted from plants through this really weird method. Where you're taking one plant that has the drug in it, another plant, which is a monoamine oxidase inhibitor. And you're combining them together and in the perfect amount and boiling it. It tastes like shit, like, why are you doing this? Like, how'd you learn? And then when they, you ask them how they learned how to do this, they're like, the plants taught us.

• 2:20:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, I know, right? You know, and then you, they can take that, you can take that same chemical and they'll pour it in the water. And rather than fishing or, you know, spearing fish in the water or hooking them, they pour it into the water in these little, you know, they create these little canals off of the Amazon. And fish, piranha, whatever will swim up in it. And they pour that, they pour that, that liquid, wherever that hallucinogen is in, and it stuns the fish. And they all come to the top and they only take what they need and they send the rest back. Which is another reason why I don't think that Native Americans are responsible for the extinction of all the megafauna in the Americas. Because, you know, uh, okay, so I'm, so I'm out in the woods in East Texas a couple of weeks ago. And we're just walking around, we're talking about the Caddo people. Have you heard of the Caddo Indians before?

• 2:21:25Speaker 02

  And I was trying to talk to my friend who doesn't know a lot about Native Americans, trying to like, tell him, trying to give him the essence of the people. And then the words came to me and I was like, I was like, if nature itself. Took an anthropomorphic form. That's the Native American. These are people that lived perfectly with their environment, or tried to, at least most of them did. And, um, yeah, it's just, uh, it's just, uh, it's amazing, man. So much can be learned from that.

• 2:21:51Joe Rogan?

  They did some wasteful things.

• 2:21:53Speaker 02

  I know, I know, yeah, yeah.

• 2:21:54Joe Rogan?

  Buffalo jumps.

• 2:21:55Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's, that's true. And, and I'm, I'm really speaking in generalities, like, like I could go on and on about all the horrific things that the Aztecs did. This is just a general.

• 2:22:05Joe Rogan?

  Or the Comanche.

• 2:22:06Speaker 02

  Or the Comanches.

• 2:22:07Joe Rogan?

  Did other Indians.

• 2:22:08Speaker 02

  It's not like this was a, uh, it's not at all like this was a utopia at all. It was complete and utter war.

• 2:22:15Joe Rogan?

  But then again, you're saying embodiment of nature. Well, nature's not utopia.

• 2:22:18Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 2:22:19Joe Rogan?

  Jaguars are not utopia if you're an antelope.

• 2:22:22Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, very much so. Um, so, you know, there's some nuance there and, uh, but, uh, yeah, I just, um, I don't know, it's, it's just fascinating. You, you had a, you had a good point in a podcast. I think you were talking about Oriana, um, his expedition down the Amazon. And you were talking about how he was able to use the stars to navigate, uh, back to Spain. And you were like, you're like, well, you know, that's what, that's what, or not ancient people, but you know, that's what people used to do. Everybody was an astronomer. How much of this experience has gone to us today? We don't sit around and look at the stars anymore. And that's one aspect. We don't, we don't interact with, you know, natural, plant-based, you know, hallucinogens anymore. There's so many things about the natural world that we don't interact with.

• 2:23:06Joe Rogan?

  Those two are huge, and particularly the one, the first one, the stars. Because people don't even consider how much light pollution. If you ask the average person, what the night's, an average person who lives in New York City or Boston or wherever, the night sky is polluted. You just don't think it's polluted, but it's polluted by light. And you're, you're missing this incredible majestic image of the cosmos. That's so humbling. It puts you in check.

• 2:23:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 2:23:33Joe Rogan?

  It puts you in check. It really does. Like anybody that has a diluted ego, that's gonna go away if you're confronted with the Milky Way.

• 2:23:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:23:40Joe Rogan?

  You have some delusions of grandeur and your, your place and everything. You're like, well, it's not possible. Like, just look at this. It's like, I am. I am nothing. I am nothing, and I am everything. I'm a part of everything, but I am nothing.

• 2:23:52Speaker 02

  And so many of these people who still today exist in the, in the, uh, the natural world, like the wild. You know, Percy Fawcett, uh, interacting with these Amazonian tribes that still live like this today. These people are still around. They're, they're still.

• 2:24:05Joe Rogan?

  Paul Rosley sent me a video a month ago.

• 2:24:07Speaker 02

  Oh, really?

• 2:24:08Joe Rogan?

  Do you wanna see it?

• 2:24:09Speaker 02

  Sure, yeah, absolutely.

• 2:24:10Joe Rogan?

  Check this out. I'll show this video. I can't share it with the world. So, ha, ha, sorry. I'm a gatekeeper.

• 2:24:16Joe Rogan?

  Like, everybody's a gatekeeper, I guess.

• 2:24:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:24:19Joe Rogan?

  Um, but Paul, uh, doesn't want people to know where these people are.

• 2:24:22Speaker 02

  Sure, sure, yeah.

• 2:24:23Joe Rogan?

  Trying to hide this stuff, but he took this video while he was, uh, out in the Amazon, like, helping these people. So this is like, video from his phone. God, where is it, Paul?

• 2:24:42Joe Rogan?

  Oh, here it is.

• 2:24:44Joe Rogan?

  Joe, you can't share this with anybody. Can't share with anybody. I'm gonna share with you. Just make sure the camera's not on it.

• 2:24:54Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 2:24:56Speaker 02

  Man, that is crazy.

• 2:24:58Joe Rogan?

  Wild.

• 2:25:00Speaker 02

  I mean, you're, you're looking, you're looking into the past.

• 2:25:03Joe Rogan?

  You're looking way into the past. I mean, way into the past.

• 2:25:07Speaker 02

  Just, just in your frame right there, what you were looking at has existed since the beginning of time.

• 2:25:12Joe Rogan?

  Yes. And that's what's interesting, is that exists at the same time as you and I talking on a podcast. Where millions of people are gonna hear it, and it's all electronic recording of our voice and images. And then distributed wirelessly into your phone instantaneously. The moment this episode gets uploaded on Spotify. People will click it and watch it on their phone instantly.

• 2:25:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:25:37Joe Rogan?

  Like, all at the same time, where these people are living in a homemade canoe.

• 2:25:40Speaker 02

  They're in the same time zone as you right now. Same time zone. It's whatever it is right now, it's the same time zone.

• 2:25:45Joe Rogan?

  That's crazy.

• 2:25:46Speaker 02

  And when our civilization, we all destroy ourselves, and thousands of years go by, and everything in the studio is gone, it all turns to dust. Those people will continue the legacy of humanity.

• 2:25:57Joe Rogan?

  Well, I wonder if those people are the preppers of the Amazonian world. Do you know what I mean? Like, like if everything did go sideways because the Europeans came over and brought all the diseases and civilization collapsed, who's gonna live?

• 2:26:10Speaker 02

  No, you, you are exactly right. So, when the Spaniards-

• 2:26:14Joe Rogan?

  That's Country Boy Can Survive. That's like the Hank Williams Jr. song in reality.

• 2:26:18Speaker 02

  Dude, you're, you are exactly correct. I mean, you're exactly correct. So, when the Spaniards arrive, they, they, obviously, they land in the Bahamas with Columbus 1492, but they come down to like Hispaniola, Jamaica, and in the early 1500s, they start poking around on the shores of the Yucatan. And, um, and they're kind of trading and interacting with these people, you know, these are explorers, they're all curious. But they didn't realize that they were giving these Native Americans disease, and that disease was spreading through the Maya world. And maybe more than a decade later, when Cortez arrives in the Maya world, he, he documents how all the Maya people are very scrawny and small and sickly and weak. He didn't realize they were all dying off.

• 2:26:58Speaker 02

  So, eventually Cortez conquers Tenochtitlan, the Aztec capital, in 1521, and he sends, uh, he sends Pizarro down to find the gold that the Aztecs were getting from South America, or from this distant land. They didn't 100% know exactly what South America was yet. He goes down to South America, uh, and he conquers the Inca Empire. And then after that, Oriana descends down the Amazon. And when he descends down the Amazon, he sees these cities that would go on for 15 miles long. I mean, these 15 mile long cities, full of millions and millions of people, these giant circular stone buildings, these huge bustling civilizations.

• 2:27:38Speaker 02

  And, um, and then later on, in the 1700s, 1800s, and then really densely in the early 1900s, like with Percy Fawcett, Theodore Roosevelt, everyone around them, they were looking for these big cities that the Spaniards had seen, but they didn't exist, and they didn't find any evidence of it, of it at all. And a lot of people, like, uh, like the British and the Royal Geographic Society, they brushed it off as, oh, the, uh, the Spaniards were lying, uh, so that they could secure funding for further expeditions, and this was like their livelihood, the way that they could stay rich. Uh, of course, then the, the LIDAR proves that these civilizations- civilizations were there. Now, the stuff that's been excavated in the Amazon, we haven't excavated anything in the center of the Amazon.

• 2:28:18Speaker 02

  It's, it's really expensive, it's hard to do, archaeologists don't want to live out there, whatever, whatever, there's a million reasons why it doesn't happen. But on the peripheral of the Amazon, uh, there are areas that get cut flat for logging, like, you know, as civilization slowly encroaches on the Amazon, they are finding, uh, these, uh, villages that are these, I mean, they're basically cities that are these huge geoglyphs that are cut into the ground. Have you seen these, uh, in the Amazon? They're, they're huge.

• 2:28:44Joe Rogan?

  I believe so. I believe this is some stuff that Graham was showing.

• 2:28:47Speaker 02

  Maybe so. I, I think Graham has talked about this before. Maybe it was in America before.

• 2:28:52Joe Rogan?

  What should he look if he's looking for it?

• 2:28:54Speaker 02

  Uh, just Amazon geoglyphs. They'll, they'll come up. They're these huge squares. Yeah, perfect. So these things are.

• 2:29:00Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, we definitely talked about that.

• 2:29:01Speaker 02

  These things are gigantic and, uh, and they're all over the peripherals of the Amazon. But the, this was, these were the preppers living on the outside. They weren't living in the hustle and bustle of the, you know, million plus population city in the middle of the Amazon. These are the guys living on the outside and they all survived this apocalyptic disease that went through.

• 2:29:20Joe Rogan?

  They're the people living in Appalachia.

• 2:29:23Speaker 02

  Exactly. Yeah.

• 2:29:24Joe Rogan?

  The mountain folks.

• 2:29:25Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, actually I'm moving there tomorrow.

• 2:29:27Joe Rogan?

  Are you really?

• 2:29:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, I'm in the middle of moving right now.

• 2:29:29Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:29:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, so.

• 2:29:30Joe Rogan?

  What a cool place to live.

• 2:29:31Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's, it's beautiful up there, man. Dude, it's, it's an ancient place. Have you heard of the Nantahala Rainforest?

• 2:29:36Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:29:37Speaker 02

  Oh, you gotta go there tomorrow.

• 2:29:38Joe Rogan?

  Where's that?

• 2:29:39Speaker 02

  It's, it's, it's in western North Carolina, in, in Appalachia. Uh, I grew up, I grew up going to Nantahala every year. My parents live in Nantahala now, um, and it's, it's a beautiful, completely magical place. And it was, it was part of what inspired this like, uh, explorer, you know, kind of thing in me. Um, when you're there, I, even as a kid, I knew that this was an ancient place. It turns out as an adult, when I start researching it, it's this pocket of green, I mean, solid dark green rainforest. In the US, we have three rainforests. We have Hawaii, we have Oregon, and we have the Nantahala Rainforest that most people don't know about. It's this pocket in the middle of these mountains that has looked exactly the same since before the Ice Age.

• 2:30:23Speaker 02

  It's one of the oldest places in North America.

• 2:30:26Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:30:26Speaker 02

  And it's just, it's just an incredibly magical, old, ancient place. And I'm just like drawn back there. Um, but anyways, yeah, you should go, you should go check that out.

• 2:30:37Joe Rogan?

  That sounds incredible.

• 2:30:38Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:30:39Joe Rogan?

  Yeah. You're gonna live out in that area?

• 2:30:41Speaker 02

  Uh.

• 2:30:42Joe Rogan?

  Or in the Appalachians?

• 2:30:42Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. Well, well, so my, my wife is, uh, so she's like from South Carolina and she came to, uh, she came to Texas when she was younger and then we met in college. And, uh, my, my family, when we first moved to the States, like my family moved to North Carolina in like 1694 or something crazy like that. And, uh, and so we have some roots up there. Like, have you ever been to Gatlinburg, Tennessee?

• 2:31:06Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:31:07Speaker 02

  So the, the first name of Gatlinburg was Reagan Town. And so that was where my, uh, my, my family were, were one of the founders of that town. There's an old hotel there called Reagan Motel. So my family's originally from there and then they moved down to Texas and started cattle rustling in the, in the late 1890s. But I don't know, just drawing back up there, always loved vacationing there. And so my wife and I are like in the middle of moving right now. And so, uh, two days ago, we packed up these two U-Hauls, drove them to East Texas to my in-laws. And then we drove to Austin last night, got a hotel, doing this. Tonight, we drive back to East Texas and then tomorrow we drive to North Carolina.

• 2:31:40Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:31:40Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:31:40Joe Rogan?

  So what is the history in terms of like human occupation in that area?

• 2:31:45Speaker 02

  Um, man, the people sprouted out of the ground. Yeah, it's, it's that old, man. There are, uh, that's something I'm, I'm really looking forward to getting into. Uh, and I'm kind of excited in a way to get out of Texas because it's hard to study Native American history in Texas because you gotta travel so far and everything's so arid. Like, you know, Austin, this was, this was an ancient Native American settlement here that we have built this city on top of. Uh, the Alamo in San Antonio was built on top of a, a Native American, uh, settlement. And, you know, all of our major cities are just a re-skin of an ancient city. And in Texas, it's really hard. Like, we have the Galt site that's here in, uh, that's here in Austin that proves that, uh, Clovis first was wrong. I mean, maybe you're familiar with this.

• 2:32:28Speaker 02

  But up there, you're closer to mound country, and you know where all the mound builders are. I'm a little bit north of that. But in North Carolina, it's one of the places that the Spaniards had a really hard time infiltrating because of the mountain ranges and because of how fierce the Native Americans were. And so, the archaeological projects up there are headed up by like two hillbillies that live in the country, and they're the coolest guys. They own this little department store called the Tiger Store in Hayesville, North Carolina. And they have dug up like Spanish armor under the ground, and Spanish swords, and all kinds of crazy stuff. And I've gone hiking out there, and, oh, we gotta look this up. Jamie, can we please look up Judaculla Rock? It's one of the only megaliths in North America.

• 2:33:12Speaker 02

  And it's this gigantic megalithic stone that has the same sort of art style as all the Native American stuff that we've seen. And it's some kind of primordial map of western North Carolina. It's massive, dude. You couldn't fit it in this room. It's called Judaculla. If you just try to spell it in some way, you might find it. There you go. And there's an old photo of an archaeologist laying behind it. There you go, to the top left. That one, or maybe the one that's colorized there. That one's really, really pretty. So, nobody knows what this is. And the Native Americans who were asked, some of the stories about the early Native Americans who were asked how this got here, who moved it there, their stories are that giants placed this, and that giants used to live in this land, and that they created these stones.

• 2:33:57Speaker 02

  And I have gone around, when I was a little bit younger, I would go through the rainforest and like wandering up these hillsides, and you'd find these huge stones laying there with all of these images carved into them. And, of course, you know, there's no funding that's out there. There's not even a, there's not even a police department out there. So, it's, it's, it, nothing, no research is being done out there. But it's a fascinating place as old as time itself. And all of these people are from like a chapter before contact period.

• 2:34:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's fascinating, man. It's just a, it's a very ancient, mysterious, mystical place. It's, it's one of those places that kinda gives me the feeling that Peru gives me when I'm out there, that I'm in a very, very, very old place. And, and of course, you know, the Appalachian Mountains are the oldest mountain range in the world.

• 2:34:46Joe Rogan?

  Is there any theory as to the age of that?

• 2:34:49Speaker 02

  Uh, well, I think when you go there, they attribute it to, um, they attribute it to a culture that lived in the area between 100 AD and 1000 AD. But, you know, that's just totally guesswork.

• 2:35:01Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 2:35:03Speaker 02

  Judaculla and the Cherokee Indians, yeah. Now, the, you know, the, the hard part about, the hard part about studying some stuff with Native Americans in the US is that there's a lot of like, you know, modern Native Americans, they're very prideful about their culture and, and, you know, a little bit of mythology gets, gets mixed in. Like, when you go, when I go visit the, uh, I forget what it, what exactly it's called. Um, but there's a, there's a Native American, uh, village that still exists in this area of the country. And it's like operated and it's kind of a tour place where they take people through what the cities would have looked like or what the, the towns would have looked like in the middle of the rainforest. But the hard part is when I talk to the representatives there, uh, which are Native American, you know, Cherokee people,

• 2:35:47Speaker 02

  they'll tell me, "Oh yeah, you know, the ancient people that were here, they used to be six foot five. They were very tall people or whatever." And there's no evidence behind that at all. And so it's hard to like, okay, we have Cherokee bodies. So are these, are these oral memories that are being passed down through time that come down to the Cherokee? And, you know, as a, as like a, you know, a modern day American anthropologist, do I brush off what they say and just be like, "Well, you know, they're, they're, they're carrying on these myths about their people. They wanna build it up." Or are they really holding on to something that's true? Because, um, man, I would love to talk to Graham about this. Okay, so you know, one of the biggest things that refutes, I know it sounds like I'm bouncing all over the place,

• 2:36:29Speaker 02

  but one of the biggest things that, that, that they tried to use to refute, um, the Sphinx's age, you know, about the Sphinx that could date back to the time of, of Leo, but... 10,500 years ago, or 10,500 B.C., 10,500 B.C. Is they say, "Well, there's no evidence that you could carry down the knowledge of constellations that far." You've heard this before, right? Like, how do we know that people in 10,500 B.C. even recognize the constellation of Leo? And, and how is that knowledge carried down? Dude, there is evidence of this. Okay, the squared spiral. Have you seen this motif anywhere? It's a, we could, we could look it up, Greek meander pattern. But you'll also see it in, you'll see it in the American Southwest. You'll see it out in the Mississippian cultures.

• 2:37:14Speaker 02

  You'll see it in Mexico. You'll see it in South America, Peru. You'll see it in Greece. You'll see it in Egypt, Rome. This, yeah, yeah, this pattern. So, you know, a lot of times this, um, they say that this is like, uh, well, when people use the term swastika, the swastika is just two meandering patterns or squared spirals that are laid on top of each other. That's, that's what it is. Oh, wow. Yeah, so it's a squared spiral. But when you take two of those and lay them on top of each other, it becomes a swastika. And you and I recognize where these meanders connect because of a certain recent culture that perverted this symbol and, and turned it into something evil. But this is an ancient symbol, and it's found all over the world. And, uh, it even dates back to Ukraine. You may be able to find this.

• 2:37:59Speaker 02

  There's an ivory, uh, bone handle in Ukraine from like 11,000 years ago that has this squared spiral that, that's on it. So this is 11,000 years old, found on every continent on the planet. Um, oh yeah, so it's even found in pottery. Uh, you can see it in pottery in ancient China, ancient Japan. It's in Cambodia. It's all across the ancient world. And I was asking, uh, uh, oh, oh, I know one that we could look up. Uh, could you look up the Temple of Mitla in Mexico? So Temple of Mitla. And if we look at there, you'll see it all up and down. Now, Temple of Mitla is a, uh, shamanic temple. It's like a, they think it was like a, like a mecca site that people would go to. It was built to last for all of eternity.

• 2:38:42Speaker 02

  And of all the megaliths in all of Mesoamerica or ancient Mexico and Central America, this site uses the largest stones. So each one of these lentils- That you see, this is like one solid piece of volcanic stone. Very, very hard stones. Okay, so you can see the squared spiral, right? Can you see the step pattern that leads up to them? And you could probably find another photo where you see the step pattern leading up to the spiral. So it's like, it's like you're walking up steps into a spiral and it's this loop that continues on forever. I have a ton of these photos on my phone. They're found all over Peru. There we go.

• 2:39:16Speaker 02

  Now, this is not quite exactly it. But, okay, so what this, what this really is, this step pattern and this motif of this spiral here, is it's the Big Dipper in the night sky. You can go look at the Big Dipper and the Big Dipper changes over the course of the year. So if you look at it as though it's not a Big Dipper and you look at it as though it's a staircase to a spiral, that's exactly what ancient people are seeing the Big Dipper as. And the Big Dipper is spinning in the night sky throughout the year. So this ancient symbol is them documenting a constellation. For, for over 11,000 years, human beings have been documenting a constellation. So if you're looking for the proof as to whether or not people 11,000 years ago were recognizing

• 2:40:02Speaker 02

  a lion in the night sky, boom, there you go. This is 11,000 years old. Yeah, okay, so look in here. So it's a step up to a spiral, a step up to a spiral. And dude, it's the Big Dipper. Just look at the Big Dipper in the future as though it's this constellation and it's the same thing.

• 2:40:16Joe Rogan?

  Is this a theory that it's the Big Dipper? Has this been corroborated?

• 2:40:19Speaker 02

  This is my theory.

• 2:40:20Joe Rogan?

  Your theory?

• 2:40:21Speaker 02

  This is my theory and like something I've been studying for a long time. But there, there are other archaeologists who, uh, they're kind of have a passive interest in this and they have said, oh, maybe it's the Big Dipper or something. But these aren't, these then people, if I were to go to them and be like, okay, well, you know, this ivory bone handle in Ukraine goes back 11,000 years, so it's proof. They'd be like, okay, stop. You know what I mean? So this is my theory that I have been studying for a long time. And everywhere I go in the Americas, I find that, I find that spiral pattern everywhere. And I always ask people, what does this mean? When I'm in the Mediterranean, I'll ask people, what does this mean? I'm gonna go to, I'm gonna go to Greece at the end of the year and I'm gonna ask, because it's all over Greek temples, you know? And, and all I ever get from Greek archaeologists is that it's a river.

• 2:41:05Speaker 02

  Bullshit, it's not a river. And then, in Latin America, I get a bit better of an explanation and, and maybe this is, maybe this is really it.

• 2:41:14Speaker 02

  They think that it's like the, they think that it's like the, the step, the, the steps through life and the, and the rejuvenation of life, right? So it's like, it's like the Big Dipper has some kind of esoteric meaning with it. But I, I have been thinking about this and I think that this, the reason that throughout all these ancient cultures, you see this meander pattern in so many different orientations is it's documenting, it's documenting the flipping of the Big Dipper through the night sky throughout the day. And, um, and that's, that's all, you know, I'm trying to explain something that's 11,000 years old.

• 2:41:45Joe Rogan?

  What is the earliest evidence of the understanding of the procession of the equinoxes?

• 2:41:51Speaker 02

  Oh God, I don't know. I don't know. That's, that's getting like beyond my level of, of knowledge with archaeoastronomy. Um, some people-

• 2:42:00Joe Rogan?

  It's Graham's theorize that-

• 2:42:02Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:42:02Joe Rogan?

  The Egyptians were aware of it.

• 2:42:04Speaker 02

  Uh, I mean, I don't doubt that they're, that they were aware of it.

• 2:42:07Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, Bovall, I think, believed that, or I know for sure John Anthony West believed that.

• 2:42:12Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:42:13Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:42:14Speaker 02

  Yeah, I, I don't know, man. I mean, um, the procession of the equinoxes, it takes at least what 12 to 24, it's either 12 or it's 24,000 years to be able to-

• 2:42:22Joe Rogan?

  I think it's 24,000 years. The full cycle.

• 2:42:24Speaker 02

  If, if we wanted to investigate an ancient culture, that's possible, of being able to document this, it'd be worth looking into if the Maya were aware of-

• 2:42:35Joe Rogan?

  Let's explain to people what it means. So what it means is that the earth as it spins, it doesn't spin perfectly, like there's a pin in the top and the pin in the bottom and it spins like a globe. It spins in a wobble and that wobble's a 24,000 year cycle. The earliest understanding of the procession of the equinoxes typically credited to Greek astronomer, how do you say his name? Hipparchus?

• 2:42:56Speaker 02

  Uh, yeah, Hipparchus.

• 2:42:57Joe Rogan?

  Hipparchus in the second century BCE, around 130 BCE.

• 2:43:01Speaker 02

  I bet you he did it in Alexandria too.

• 2:43:03Joe Rogan?

  Hmm. Hipparchus noticed the position of the equinoxes, the points where the celestial equator intersects with the elliptic, uh, were shifting westward over time relative to the fixed stars. He calculated this slow movement known as procession by comparing his own observations of star positions with earlier Babylonian and Greek records, particularly those of- of Timarchus and Aristilus. Aristilus from the third century BCE Hipparchus estimated the rate of procession to be about one degree every 100 years, which is remarkably close to the modern value of approximately one degree every 71.6 years. There's no definitive evidence of earlier cultures fully understanding the procession

• 2:43:46Joe Rogan?

  as a systematic astronomical phenomenon, but some scholars speculate the ancient civilizations like the Babylonians, Egyptians, or Indians might have noticed relating patterns in star positions over long periods.

• 2:43:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, and then check this out. Hipparchus discovery detailed in his lost work, but referenced by Ptolemy, the Pharaoh of Alexandria in the Almogist, second century CE. So this is happening in the city of Alexandria. This, all this is being studied in Alexandria's library marks the earliest confirmed understanding of procession in scientific sense. Dude, that was lost in the burning of Alexandria's library. Yeah. How crazy is that?

• 2:44:25Joe Rogan?

  It's all crazy. It's so fascinating because it's, it makes sense that that would be something that everyone would be studying because it's the most spectacular thing you could ever see.

• 2:44:37Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:44:37Joe Rogan?

  Why would you just say, oh, it's just stars? Of course you would.

• 2:44:41Speaker 02

  It's so silly.

• 2:44:41Joe Rogan?

  Of course. You would, it's, they're so majestic. You would, you would have to be transfixed.

• 2:44:48Speaker 02

  You know, something interesting that I was just reminded of is this meandering pattern. It continues in the ancient Mediterranean world, so Greece, Mesopotamia, and Egypt, until Alexandria's library is burned and stops after that. You see it on the, you see it on the monument of Augustus, which is, dates to about nine B.C., but that's for his death. But Augustus would have seen Alexandria. He would have been familiar with these motifs. I believe after that in Rome, we don't see this motif anymore of the squared spiral.

• 2:45:23Speaker 02

  Mezzo-America, in Mexico and Central America, this squared spiral motif stops with the burning of the Maya codices from Diego de Landa in like 1574. He gathered all of the writing in the Maya world together in the city of what is modern day Merida and he burned it all up. And it was called multiple pyres. So imagine, let's say a pyre is at least from the floor to the ceiling stacked with codexes. Like, have you ever seen the sticky notes that are connected on each side? That's how the Maya books looked. And he burned all that history. Today, we only have three or four that exist. And one of them is like controversial as to whether or not it's a forgery. So he destroyed all of the written history of the Mezzo-American

• 2:46:06Speaker 02

  world in like one fail swoop. And to give you an idea of just how much it was, when the Spaniards arrived in the Aztec world, so the Aztecs were standing on the shoulders of giants being the Maya and all the other cultures. The Aztecs were producing 250,000 pieces of paper a year. It's something like that. It's an incredible amount of written knowledge and all of that knowledge is burned and gone. And so, you know, just again, when archaeologists stand behind their opinions so strongly as to chastise other people for speculating about, oh, well, you know, this could be this. It's so silly because we're

• 2:46:47Speaker 02

  disconnected from the ancient world by a considerable margin. I mean, none of us really understand what's going on. I was having a conversation with Dr. Barnhart. We were at the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico and we're looking at all these Maya gods up on this mural. And everything in Mezzo-America, whether it's the Maya, the Olmecs, the Aztecs, Teotihuacan, Zapatecs, whatever, it's all very fierce and dark and scary, kind of scary to us. And we're looking up at it and he's like, you know, I've always wondered like, where's the love in their religion? Like, you know, where are all the doves that you see like in Christian churches and stuff? And he was like, but you know, in reality, if we could speak to them, we would probably be so embarrassed and shocked at how wrong

• 2:47:29Speaker 02

  our ideas are about who these people were. And, you know, his attitude and his approach to the ancient world, I just love it. Because, you know, he just presents like the evidence that's available, gives his idea of what he thinks the evidence means while also saying, you know, this is just, this is just my idea from this. We could be completely wrong and we probably are completely wrong. You know, think about... Like, if you died and 5,000 years from now, people started going through your belongings, what would they think of you? It probably wouldn't be a very good representation of you.

• 2:48:00Joe Rogan?

  It depends on who's writing the story, right? If CNN wrote it, it'd be terrible.

• 2:48:04Speaker 02

  It'd be pretty bad.

• 2:48:05Joe Rogan?

  It's really dependent upon who, again, is the gatekeeper of information.

• 2:48:09Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:48:10Joe Rogan?

  If you had a time machine and you could go and observe undiscovered any point in history, like you could put you in some time bubble where you could just like be in this invisible bubble where you could view it, where you're not interacting, you're not, you just watch what time period and where.

• 2:48:30Speaker 02

  Oh, God.

• 2:48:35Speaker 02

  I'm not gonna say Egypt. I feel like Egypt is such a, like, everyone says Egypt.

• 2:48:38Joe Rogan?

  I would say Egypt.

• 2:48:39Speaker 02

  I know, I know. If Egypt wasn't an option.

• 2:48:44Joe Rogan?

  But why would you want that to not be an option? If I gave you a legit choice, if it was a real thing, if there was real technology, if they had developed some sort of a time warp technology that allowed you to, in this controlled sphere, exist for a particular amount of time, like you have three days in this area, you bring food and water and you just.

• 2:49:05Speaker 02

  No one can hurt me, no one can scout me.

• 2:49:07Joe Rogan?

  No one can see you, you exist in a time warp inside there, but you could observe all of it. It's gotta be Egypt.

• 2:49:13Speaker 02

  Well, yeah, yeah.

• 2:49:15Joe Rogan?

  You'd have to figure out what time, because if you got there and they had already built it, you're like, shit!

• 2:49:19Speaker 02

  God damn it, yeah.

• 2:49:20Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, like, maybe you say, "Let me go 10,000 B.C." and you go there and it's already there. You're like, fuck! Fuck!

• 2:49:27Speaker 02

  You go back 20,000 B.C.

• 2:49:28Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you can only do it once, like, fuck! But if you go back 30,000 B.C., maybe there's nothing, like.

• 2:49:34Speaker 02

  Man, Egypt is a crime de la crime, man.

• 2:49:38Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:49:38Speaker 02

  It's the most monumental, beautiful, like, you know, when you try to imagine what it would have looked like, you know, if you've seen visual recreations of the Giza Plateau, you know, the Valley Temple must have been absolutely stunning. Okay, so, one day, when you go to Egypt, hopefully you go this year. When you go to the Valley Temple, that's the, for me, it's the best thing in all of Egypt. I think it's, I think it's more stunning what it must have looked like than even the pyramids themselves. The blocks are absolutely gigantic, like one block is bigger than this whole wall. And brought from 500 miles south in Aswan, these are the ones with the cyclopean strangely angled stones like you see in Peru.

• 2:50:20Speaker 02

  And when you walk in, most people ignore it, but that floor is a calcite white crystal floor. And so imagine when it was polished and when it was finished off, it must have been gleaming. And at some point in time, there were these diorite coffra statues. Maybe you've seen them before, they're like impossibly well-made out of the hardest stone in Egypt. The hardest stone in Egypt. And it's this, is a black diorite gleaming polished statues. And the lintels that go above would have allowed when the sun, you know, reaches its like zenith in the sky in the day, in the middle of the day, it would have shot through these holes in the ceiling and so it would have illuminated the white floor and you would have had the solid black statues

• 2:51:03Speaker 02

  that are, that are shining in the, in the sun's light. And so you're walking in and it's like glowing inside of the temple. And, and when you walk outside the front door of the temple, there's a dock and you can see the dock like slopes into the ground. So the water isn't there anymore, the Nile is much further to the east now. But it would have, but the Nile came straight up to the front step of the, of the Valley Temple. So you, so imagine you're like, you're going, you know, you have someone pushing your little boat along on a pike in, you know, in Egypt. And you're, you know, you're taking in like, you know, you're taking in the nature around you and, and like the seabirds that are flying over you and the palm trees that are everywhere and like imagine the sound of the waters, you're coming up to the temple.

• 2:51:46Speaker 02

  And it's this huge temple, it's the, it's the largest. Building on the planet at the time, you know, probably, other than the pyramids themselves. But, and then you step into it and it's, it is the most sacred, most impressive thing that exists on the earth at that time. No matter if it was made in 2500 B.C. or if it was made in 10,000 B.C. It's the most impressive building that exists in the world at that time. And what exactly was going on in these buildings, I don't know. This is, this is kind of another, you know, hot take of mine is, man, I don't believe that, you know, when you see all these pantheons of these gods in the ancient world, I do not believe that ancient people are making all this shit up and building all these temples

• 2:52:30Speaker 02

  for these gods that never existed, just to control the masses, whatever, whatever. I mean, it's extensive amount of work all across the entire world, you know. The Maya are building temples for these gods, these beings that they're, that they're meeting. The Temple of Luxor that you'll, that you'll go to see. You know, the, the story goes that Amenhotep built this last chamber, which is made out of these huge, Amenhotep III builds his last chamber, huge megalithic granite blocks to meet the god Amenrah. And I'm standing there inside the, the chamber, looking around. He's the only person supposedly that's allowed in. That's the story that we know, how true that is, I don't know. But, you know, and I'm just thinking, man, either, is it more likely that all of this is made up? Or is it more likely that they went to the extent to do all this because it was all real?

• 2:53:16Speaker 02

  And they're really interacting with these beings. And the most, the, the most realistic way I can think of is by, is by being involved in like shamanic practices and hallucinogens. And like, you know, interacting with things that do not exist in our 3D plane. And, and that adds to the allure of like, when I'm standing in the Valley Temple, I'm like, what the hell is actually going on in here at this time?

• 2:53:41Speaker 02

  So after going through all that, I had to say Egypt.

• 2:53:44Joe Rogan?

  You have to.

• 2:53:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:53:46Joe Rogan?

  As cliché as it might be.

• 2:53:47Speaker 02

  My, my second one would be like, if I could be like, okay, take me to the height of Amazonian culture. Just let me see just how amazing it is. Because, you know, it really seems like stone architecture comes out of the Amazon. Now, where Paul lives, it's all clay on the ground. But when you get halfway through the Amazon, you start reaching like granite and limestone bedrock. And that's on the eastern side. So you're in like Guyana, French Guyana, Brazil. And it's treacherous places to go through in the, in the middle of the Amazon. But I think that that's where cities in the Amazon are going to be found one day. And it was towards the end of Oriana's expedition. So that's about where he would have been. And man, I bet, I bet you there's stuff out there that would just amaze us. I think it,

• 2:54:30Speaker 02

  I think the Amazon is the origin, just me personally, I think the Amazon is the origin of American, you know, pre-Columbian American, the height of their civilization. I think it's the origin of their religion and shamanic practices. I think it's spread out all the way up to Mexico. And, you know, later on, the ancient Americans have a corn god, which they call the maize god. But I think before that, they had this ware jaguar religion, where people are taking hallucinogens and psychedelics. And so I, I think that all the evidence points towards that the origin of civilization in the Americas begins in the Amazon and spreads out from there. And I would love if a time machine could pull back that canopy and show me what the actual height of that was like.

• 2:55:15Joe Rogan?

  It's just so interesting. It never stops being interesting. And it's one of those things, it's a mystery that will never truly be totally solved, because it's not possible to go back in time. So we're always going to have this thing in our mind, like, I wonder. And it's such a fascinating inclination to sit and just wonder about the past. And to look where we are now and how ridiculous life today is, this was undeniable. Like, humans are fools. Particularly today.

• 2:55:42Speaker 02

  For sure.

• 2:55:42Joe Rogan?

  And I think one of the reasons why we're fools is we're denied these experiences that these people probably had. We've outlawed them.

• 2:55:48Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:55:48Joe Rogan?

  Just like they did in ancient Greece. Just like they did, I'm sure, throughout history and all these different cultures.

• 2:55:55Speaker 02

  You know, have you ever heard the, have you ever heard the natives in Papua New Guinea? And the songs that they sing that like emanate through the jungle? Have you ever heard this before?

• 2:56:05Joe Rogan?

  No.

• 2:56:06Speaker 02

  When I, when I study, now I don't study, I only study native people in the Americas. I've got my hands full with that. I can't really start studying, you know, like, uh, you know, I'm fascinated by the people that live on Sentinel Island. And akin to that are the people, the semi-contactive people of Papua New Guinea. And when you listen to the songs that they sing, it reminds me so much of what I heard yesterday and what I've known, but when Percy Fawcett says he hears the songs they sing, it reminds him of like, oh, this is, these are, this is an advanced culture. This is something that's being handed down through time. It's beautiful. It's timeless. And when you hear the, the, the sound of the Papua New Guinea people singing and the way they harmonize with each other, these people are so connected to the earth that it's the earth singing to you through them. Does that make sense?

• 2:56:51Joe Rogan?

  Can we hear that?

• 2:56:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:56:56Speaker 02

  This may not be the one I'm talking about.

• 2:57:07Speaker 02

  It's beautiful, though. There's one of, uh, there's one of a man. He's right next to the camera and he's singing and you have all these people around him and it's just like stunningly beautiful.

• 2:57:16Joe Rogan?

  Is that him?

• 2:57:16Speaker 02

  Here it is, here it is.

• 2:57:50Joe Rogan?

  It's got some extra love on it.

• 2:57:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:57:57Speaker 02

  I think it's just on loop.

• 2:57:58Joe Rogan?

  Ten hours. It's a ten hour video.

• 2:58:01Speaker 02

  But you know, hearing that makes me like emotional, hearing it.

• 2:58:02Joe Rogan?

  Five grams and you listen to that.

• 2:58:04Speaker 02

  It's beautiful, you know?

• 2:58:05Joe Rogan?

  Oh my god, it's gorgeous.

• 2:58:06Speaker 02

  It's beautiful. And you look in his eyes and it's like, he has very innocent eyes.

• 2:58:11Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 2:58:12Speaker 02

  You know, it is the it's the human embodiment of the planet itself, is that guy that you're looking at and what you're hearing.

• 2:58:20Joe Rogan?

  And what's really fascinating about human culture is the most satisfied, least anxious people are subsistence livers.

• 2:58:27Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 2:58:28Joe Rogan?

  People that live off the land.

• 2:58:29Speaker 02

  It's so true.

• 2:58:30Joe Rogan?

  Have you ever seen the Vice piece about this guy named Heinmo, Heinmo's Arctic Adventure?

• 2:58:38Speaker 02

  No.

• 2:58:39Joe Rogan?

  There's a great bit, a great video piece from Vice, from back in the day, Vice Guide to Travel, where this journalist goes and lives with this guy who lives in the Arctic and he's one of the last people that's allowed to live off the land. And he's a very intelligent guy who explains through the course of this, like, this is how people are supposed to be living. And he's essentially just hunting caribou and fishing and he lives like in peace and harmony. And he never wants to live in a city. Like, this is a natural way for us.

• 2:59:12Speaker 02

  Does he have a little daughter with him or a little girl? And he like cuts up the fish and he hands it to her and they give each other like an Eskimo kiss? Have you seen? I think this may be.

• 2:59:19Joe Rogan?

  I don't believe it's that. His daughter's full grown at the time.

• 2:59:22Speaker 02

  Okay, okay, okay.

• 2:59:22Joe Rogan?

  But I'm sure there's many people living like this. But the point is that I think that if you look at modern society, we're so anxious and weird and depressed and all these things wrong with us. I think a lot of that is because, A, we're disconnected from nature, especially if you're living in a city. I mean, there's no more insulation from nature than a skyscraper. I mean, you're completely removed from it. You've covered the ground in concrete, you're not interacting with nature at all. Like, that's why everybody goes to Central Park. They're like, a little peace. So, give me a little bit of nature, right? So you're disconnected from nature, which I think is a vitamin, I genuinely believe.

• 2:59:59Speaker 02

  Ah, man, it definitely is.

• 3:00:00Joe Rogan?

  It's just like, the sun gives you vitamin D. I think nature gives you some unmeasured vitamin that we just haven't figured out yet. And then we're removed from these ancient experiences that connected people to the spiritual world.

• 3:00:13Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 3:00:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's so true. I've been having these conversations with my wife recently. You know, like, all of our friends are sort of, you know, we're all kind of newlyweds. Like, my wife and I are about to approach our two-year, and our relationship is interesting because it kind of mimics like ancient people, where, you know, a man has got to, you know, in ancient times, the man would go off, at a certain point periodically, he and all of his, he and all the other men of the village, or the younger men, would go off until they killed a big animal, and they'd drag it back, and they'd be rewarded by the gratification of the women that are there, and then they would play their part in helping to feed everybody. And you have this, like, the woman, like, admires the man, the man's helping to take care of her.

• 3:00:59Speaker 02

  You have this, and then the men also get their time away to be manly and be masculine and brave. And now, we exist in this world where, before I was able to, you know, quit my job and pursue this full-time, I was doing, like, marketing, you know, to just to make ends meet. And I'm, like, existing in this digital world that doesn't even exist. I produce ads for companies that don't even have a physical brick-and-mortar store. It's, like, all completely made up. And I come home, I would come home every single day, and I had no, like, male role in my little family. Like, my wife is in the middle of dental school, and so we're both going off and coming back and doing the same thing every day, and it's like this unnatural cycle.

• 3:01:42Speaker 02

  And you wonder why, like, people are so unhappy. And now that I've been traveling quite a lot, you know, I go off, you know, I go off, I travel, I'm able to, you know, help provide for us. I'm gone, I come back, and our relationship is strong, and it's intimate and romantic, and she, like, you know, admires that kind of aspect about me. And I'm like, like, oh, this is kind of, this is kind of how, this is a healthy, this is actually a healthy thing for our relationship. And it's just reminding me more and more of how this modern world is so dystopian and so sick and poisonous to our minds. We're operating in a made-up realm. This, you know, it's just so much of what we do is completely made up and unnatural. We should be living by a fresh body of water, and you and I should be running off into the forest

• 3:02:27Speaker 02

  and killing something with our hands or with a bow, and dragging it back, and all the women are, yay, you know? That's what it should, that's what life should be like. But it's, unfortunately... Science fiction.

• 3:02:39Joe Rogan?

  I think you can live in this world and dabble in that world.

• 3:02:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, for sure.

• 3:02:43Joe Rogan?

  That's what I do.

• 3:02:44Speaker 02

  For sure. Yeah, well, I've seen that. I mean, you go off on your hunting expeditions.

• 3:02:48Joe Rogan?

  Those are like, to me, spiritual journeys.

• 3:02:50Speaker 02

  It is.

• 3:02:51Joe Rogan?

  It sounds ridiculous, but when I'm in the woods, like the real woods, when you're in the mountains in particular, because it's so unforgiving and so majestic, every part of me just goes,

• 3:03:03Joe Rogan?

  like, wow, here we are.

• 3:03:04Speaker 02

  Where are you at when you do that?

• 3:03:05Joe Rogan?

  Well, I really love Utah. I really love like the Wasatch Mountains. I love that area.

• 3:03:11Speaker 02

  I'm scared of the Northwest. My wife wants to take me to Montana and go hiking. I'm like, I'm not going hiking out in Northwest. There's grizzly. I don't belong out there. There's grizzly bears. I mean, those things, there's nothing you can do, man.

• 3:03:23Joe Rogan?

  Nothing you can do.

• 3:03:24Speaker 02

  I'm OK on the East Coast, which is just black bears. They're like, you know, rabbits, but dude, a grizzly bear?

• 3:03:30Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:30Speaker 02

  Have you seen the video of the guy who's up on top of this granite facing and he goes, he's like filming and he goes, there's a young grizzly bear down at the river below me and he's up on this granite face. And he was like, I'm gonna scare him off. And he goes, hey, bear, hey, bear. And the bear goes, and charges directly to him and knocks down all the little trees and it comes up to the granite face and it can't reach him. But I'm like,

• 3:03:50Joe Rogan?

  Yeah.

• 3:03:50Speaker 02

  Dude, I would never want to go up there.

• 3:03:53Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're food.

• 3:03:55Speaker 02

  You're food, man.

• 3:03:56Joe Rogan?

  Yeah, you're a part of the chain and not the good part.

• 3:03:58Speaker 02

  No, no.

• 3:03:59Joe Rogan?

  You're not the hunter with the deer.

• 3:04:01Speaker 02

  No.

• 3:04:01Joe Rogan?

  There's an 800-pound super predator that can run 40 miles an hour and he's headed right towards you.

• 3:04:07Speaker 02

  Yeah, and if you're a good shot with a high-powered gun, you might be able to kill it, but you'll be mauled to death by the time it wanders off into the forest and dies.

• 3:04:15Joe Rogan?

  Be able to kill it. I mean, you really, you need like a large caliber rifle and shoot it in the head.

• 3:04:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:04:21Joe Rogan?

  You know, and a pistol, that's the other thing. If you have a 9mm pistol and you shoot a grizzly bear in the head, it's very likely it's gonna bounce off of his skull, which is so scary.

• 3:04:31Speaker 02

  Oh, it's terrifying. Could you imagine the, could you imagine people trying to navigate into or migrate into the Americas and they have to deal with the short-faced bear and polar bears?

• 3:04:41Joe Rogan?

  Right. The short-faced bear, which makes a grizzly bear, looks like a poodle.

• 3:04:44Speaker 02

  It's utterly insane, man. People lived in a gnarly place in the US. Like, we had, we had American lions that are twice...

• 3:04:53Joe Rogan?

  Bigger than the African lion.

• 3:04:54Speaker 02

  Yeah, exactly. We had elephants, we had woolly mammoths, we had camels here, we had gigantic horses, we had huge dire wolves, we had these giants... Giant, oh, there's giant sloth caves in Nantahala. And you can see them, and they're like carved out. And it's cool because there's multiple layers of history there. So you have this, you have this megafauna, Ice Age history of these huge giant sloth caves carved out in, you know, these prehistoric mountainsides.

• 3:05:21Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 3:05:21Speaker 02

  But the Cherokee used those caves to hide in, to escape the Trail of Tears.

• 3:05:27Joe Rogan?

  Wow.

• 3:05:27Speaker 02

  Yeah, that's fascinating stuff up there, man. So you have like levels of history just in that one area of the country. If you go out there, you'll feel like you're in a primordial place that's, you know, kind of spiritual.

• 3:05:38Joe Rogan?

  I'm down. I'll check it out.

• 3:05:40Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah, you definitely have to.

• 3:05:41Joe Rogan?

  Listen, thank you so much for being here. I really, really enjoyed this conversation, and I think we could do a bunch more, so let's do it again sometime.

• 3:05:48Speaker 02

  I feel like I could have talked to you for 10 more hours.

• 3:05:49Joe Rogan?

  I feel like we could too, yeah. So tell everybody they want to get into more of your work. Where should they go?

• 3:05:56Speaker 02

  Yeah, so everything I do is just under my name, Luke Caverns. You know, Caverns was just a name that like my wife and I came up with to use as like a nomer because of privacy, but my real last name is Reagan. And, you know, like I shared, I have this family history and loosely connected to the presidential family. That's like a different branch of our family.

• 3:06:15Joe Rogan?

  Oh, wow.

• 3:06:16Speaker 02

  From Tennessee, yeah. And, and so I kind of want to do it for privacy, but like that's impossible. So I just, I've just run with it. And, but yeah, Luke Caverns, you can find, you can find everything I do under that. And, you know, I, for a long time, I thought maybe I'd specialize in one area, but man, I'm interested in, in the ancient history of the entire world. And I'm just always going to embrace that and explore the ancient world on foot. And, yeah.

• 3:06:45Joe Rogan?

  I'm glad you're out there, man. Really appreciate it.

• 3:06:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:06:47Joe Rogan?

  Thank you for being here. It was really fun. Really fun. Thank you. Alright, bye, everybody.

• 3:07:05Joe Rogan?

  Today is brought to you by the number one brand for better sex, BlueChew. BlueChew Gold is a four-in-one powerhouse that gets your brain and your body on the same page for sex. Two ingredients get the blood flow pumping and two ingredients prime your brain for arousal. No overthinking, just peak performance in as little as 15 minutes. Look at the stats. Gold is three times stronger, five times faster, and eight times longer lasting than old-school methods. BlueChew Gold is the real deal. Right now, buy two months of BlueChew Gold and get the third free with my code ROGEN. You'll also receive free overnight shipping. That's promo code ROGEN. Head over to bluechew.com for details

• 3:07:46Joe Rogan?

  and important safety information. Check it out. This ad and the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience. This episode is brought to you by LifeLock. Scams have gotten smarter because criminals use AI to flood you with fake texts, emails, and phone calls that are designed to be more convincing than ever. One wrong click could put your personal information and your identity at risk. So protect yourself with LifeLock. LifeLock helps detect and alert you to threats. And if your identity is stolen, LifeLock will step in to fix it, guaranteed or your money back. Dedicated, US-based, identity restoration specialists will work with you

• 3:08:28Joe Rogan?

  until your identity is restored, backed by the million-dollar protection package with up to $3 million in coverage for eligible losses and expenses. Visit lifelock.com and save up to 30% your first year with the promo code JRE. That's promo code JRE. Or go to lifelock.com/jre for 30% off. Terms apply.