Weekly Recap: Mark Cuban, Kanye’s Wild Mansion Makeover, China Heads to the Moon, Money in Clipping

(00:00) - Intro (00:04) - The Big Money of Clipping (14:12) - Meta Smart Glasses (28:31) - Heads to the Moon (34:21) - Mark Cuban (Investor & Entrepreneur) (01:04:46) - Kanye’s Wild Mansion Makeover (01:08:49) - Gabe Whaley (MSCHF) TBPN.com is made possible by: Ramp - https://ramp.com Figma - https://figma.com Vanta - https://vanta.com Linear - https://linear.app Eight Sleep - https://eightsleep.com/tbpn Wander - https://wander.com/tbpn Public - https://public.com AdQuick - https://adquick.com Bezel - https://getbezel.com Numeral - https://www.numeralhq.com Polymarket - https://polymarket.com Attio - https://attio.com/tbpn Fin - https://fin.ai/tbpn Graphite - https://graphite.dev Restream - https://restream.io Profound - https://tryprofound.com Julius AI - https://julius.ai Follow TBPN: https://TBPN.com https://x.com/tbpn https://open.spotify.com/show/2L6WMqY3GUPCGBD0dX6p00?si=674252d53acf4231 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/technology-brothers/id1772360235 https://www.youtube.com/@TBPNLive

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Gabe Whaley?

  You're watching TV.

• 0:04John Coogan?

  Did you see that Cluley was in the Wall Street Journal?

• 0:06Jordi Hays?

  No way.

• 0:07John Coogan?

  Yeah, so, um, and, and in part of a trend piece on clipping that I thought was kind of interesting. Um, we do some clipping here. We clip on X. We, we, we create, uh, we TikToks, we create Instagrams, we create, uh, reels, all sorts of stuff. Um, but the Wall Street Journal is breaking down the trends and all the big money behind those bite sized social media videos. Companies are hiring clippers to flood TikTok and Instagram with short promotional videos. And one of the examples here is, uh, One X, which, uh, we've had on the show as well. Cluley, we've also had on the show, and Nothing, we've also had on the show, three for three with the CEOs of the companies that are using clipping to their benefit. So you know those buzzy viral clips you see on social media?

• 0:52John Coogan?

  There's an army behind them. Uh, Canoa Cunningham is among the ranks of video savvy young clippers who help streamers, podcasts, and startups expand their audiences by making buzzy moments go viral on social media. Cunningham edits down clients' long form videos into short clips and then posts the shorts on sites like Instagram and TikTok. It is lucrative work. In May Cunningham quit his finance job and now runs a team of eight clippers. He said the operation earns him 20,000 to 30,000 a month. Not bad. Clipping is one of the hottest corners of marketing. Instead of just posting on their own accounts, creators and companies pay clippers like Cunningham to saturate TikTok and Instagram with bite sized videos until they are almost impossible to miss.

• 1:33John Coogan?

  One technique they use to grab attention on crowded social media platforms, posting provocative or outrageous content. And I think this is one of the issues that people should be aware of if they're going to start clipping is what is the brand line? What is the brand standard? I saw a viral clip from a podcast where Basically, it made it made the host like the host was joking, but the joke was taken out of context and just made the host look dumb. And that went super viral, but the takeaway for the viewer.

• 2:09Jordi Hays?

  Like, great, you got views. Did you get are those valuable views?

• 2:13John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, it it's not just, I mean, the like, the the base case for clipping is that it gets no views. The good, the good case is that it gets some views, but doesn't really convert many people because the conversion rates on a million views is like a few listeners will actually be like, yeah, I watched a I enjoyed that 60 second TikTok. I'm down to listen to an hour of this. That's pretty, that's a pretty low conversion rate, but that's fine because you you get the million views, you probably bring some awareness. But the worst thing that you can do is like, create a brand is like, the person that gets dunked on or something like that.

• 2:48Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Yeah. And so so certain people have productized this, right? So so you can hire like this person, Mr. Cunningham in the Journal, saying the only way to be famous in today's internet world is with clips. I I think like he's running his own operation. But WAP has WAP has productized this. I do think it's a cool way for young people to make their first money online. Like, if you're in middle school and you want to figure out how to make $100 a day, you can probably do that through clipping.

• 3:17John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:18Jordi Hays?

  But I I wonder how much I do wonder how much the social platforms will like if they see this as a feature or a bug, right? Because part of the strategy is Cluey will spin up like 40 different accounts that are really all dedicated to Cluey content.

• 3:36John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:37Jordi Hays?

  And they're just spamming, spamming, spamming, spamming, spamming, just like shotgun approach, seeing they'll put out 100 videos. If a lot of them get under 1000 views and one gets a million, that's, that's a win for them.

• 3:50John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 3:51Jordi Hays?

  And yeah, just I don't know how long this will be like the meta, right?

• 3:55John Coogan?

  Well, so it's like, I think mediocre work is like the

• 4:01John Coogan?

  Super ripe for AI automation. And we're already seeing that where I believe Substack, we were talking to Chris Bast and Substack will automatically generate clips. There's another company called Opus Clip. We've built something internally, Newsmax, that that does some automated clipping. But actually telling a story around a piece of content that's within a larger piece is something that

• 4:26Jordi Hays?

  Clipping intelligence has not been achieved internally.

• 4:29John Coogan?

  Yeah, because you, in order to do something that doesn't just outperform on views, but also outperforms on brand and holds the brand standard, it does somewhat require like human ingenuity. And we saw this with, we talked to Dwar Kesh about this, where he has spent a lot of time using Anthropic and Gemini and OpenAI to create workflows that will go through the transcript and try and find the best clips that will perform. And he says it's always comes back at a five out of 10. And so he still has a team that does this and is very good and has a whole bunch of like hard-won lessons about what works at a certain amount of time. And we've seen this with our, with our content that

• 5:08John Coogan?

  actually winds up performing. A lot of it, like, we, we, we have to do a lot of experimentation. But once we do the experimentation, we usually learn a lesson from it. And then we commit that to memory and our team commits that to memory and that becomes part of our like continual learning that happens. And that just doesn't really happen in, when you're, when you're automating things with an LLM. So it is, it is, it's probably like, I think it's a good like base case to start with, but a lot of this should be done by the platform. So I wouldn't be surprised.

• 5:42Jordi Hays?

  I think, I don't know.

• 5:43John Coogan?

  YouTube does it, Spotify does it automatically.

• 5:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I don't know how much credit he should get, but I do think that Andrew Tate's rise

• 5:49John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 5:49Jordi Hays?

  was his business model of paying people

• 5:52John Coogan?

  Totally.

• 5:53Jordi Hays?

  to clip his content

• 5:54John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 5:55Jordi Hays?

  to sell more courses, which he then would recycle some of the proceeds into more clipping. And this was at a period where he was saying, I'm the most Googled man on the internet.

• 6:04John Coogan?

  Yep, yep.

• 6:04Jordi Hays?

  And he would just say that over and over.

• 6:06John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 6:06Jordi Hays?

  It would get clipped a lot and it naturally had this sort of feedback loop.

• 6:10John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 6:10Jordi Hays?

  People were just, okay, what is this guy saying? I need to pay attention. But that was also hyper optimized for that format because he'd be like sitting shirtless in a supercar, you know, smoking a cigar.

• 6:21John Coogan?

  Yep. And, and any of these like, Social media hacks, they always have like a very narrow window of opportunity. Like the, the, the, the giving away a, it used to just be just renting a sports car or like owning a Ferrari would be enough for a million views. Now, then it became you had to give it away. And so Doug Jamiro, one of his big series that got really big, the car YouTuber was he had a Ferrari 360 Modena. And it was, I think in the hundred something thousand dollar range. He had to get a bunch of debt to pay for it. It was very expensive and he made a whole bunch of videos about his red Ferrari.

• 7:00Jordi Hays?

  He levered up his content.

• 7:01John Coogan?

  Yeah. And it, and it was great. It was great content. It was interesting. And of course it was, he was more like making fun of flex culture than actually doing the flex culture, but still the, there just weren't that many YouTube videos of like a red Ferrari. So you click on it and people found him that way and he grew. Um, then it became, uh, like the Mr. Beast era of like, I'm going to give away a Ferrari. Uh, last person to take their hand off the car wins it. And that was a big thing that was even more expensive because you didn't just have to buy the Ferrari, pay the, pay the, you know, the, the monthly, uh, payment for a certain amount of time and then sell it and hope that there's not that much depreciation. Like the net cost was truly the full price of the Ferrari.

• 7:41Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 7:41John Coogan?

  Um, but at least you're giving it to someone. It's like a write-off probably. There, there's something there. The most recent Mr. Beast video involving, uh, a supercar was him literally shredding a Lamborghini, just destroying it. Like Whistlin Diesel has become a huge YouTuber on the back of, uh, on the back of just like destroying supercars and G wagons and all these crazy cars. Tyler?

• 8:00Jordi Hays?

  I think, uh, Sean Frank just gave away Lambo.

• 8:03John Coogan?

  Oh, yeah.

• 8:03Jordi Hays?

  That, I, he posted about that.

• 8:05John Coogan?

  That's working, that's working.

• 8:06Jordi Hays?

  Maybe soon he's gonna have to start destroying it or?

• 8:09John Coogan?

  I don't know. Yeah, I, I, I think giving it away, but yeah, I mean, it's like, it's like this.

• 8:13Jordi Hays?

  That made sense. That was a Strato.

• 8:15John Coogan?

  It was a Strato, very special car.

• 8:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Um, no, but, but the real, the, the real pinnacle of this was Whistlin Diesel.

• 8:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, Whistlin Diesel took it to the max.

• 8:23Jordi Hays?

  To the absolute max. Uh, Ferrari F8, beautiful car.

• 8:27John Coogan?

  He destroyed it?

• 8:28Jordi Hays?

  Completely destroyed it, right? And, and made a video about it. It's incredibly entertaining to watch somebody drive a car.

• 8:34John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:34Jordi Hays?

  That's normally a garage, uh, a garage queen and have somebody just, just absolutely take it off, roading all this stuff. Fantastic video if you haven't seen it.

• 8:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 8:42Jordi Hays?

  It's funny, the, um, I was looking up what, what, uh, what kind of Ferrari it was and Google's AI overview says Whistlin Diesel parentheses Cody Co. Destroyed his Ferrari F8. And so AGI has not been a

• 8:57John Coogan?

  Add 300 days to the singularity time.

• 8:59Jordi Hays?

  Add 300 days.

• 9:00John Coogan?

  Three more, 300 more days till AGI. We're not getting any closer. Clipping took off during the early days of TikTok when chopped up snippets featuring internet personalities like Andrew Tate or Mr. Beast would rack up millions of views. I swear Jordy reads the articles before we, we talk about them on the show.

• 9:19Jordi Hays?

  Maybe, maybe sometimes.

• 9:21John Coogan?

  It sparked a new generation. I don't know how you read 400 pages of documents before we, before we get on, when I put this together 10 minutes before we jump on.

• 9:30John Coogan?

  It sparked a new generation of creators who realized they could pay their way into virality by hiring hordes of clippers, paid per thousand views to flood the internet with the creator's content. Anything can be clipped, a podcast, debate, social media montage, even movies. Startups such as Lovable, an app that builds software from plain English prompts, humanoid robot maker, one ax and consumer electronics company, Nothing, have hired clippers to multiply their content across the internet through clips of product demos, podcast appearances, and YouTube streams. You're stupid if you're not, if you're making an hour-long podcast and only posting it in one channel, said Roy Lee, the 21-year-old founder of Clueley, an AI note-taking startup which hires clippers to plaster its promotional content across the internet. The only way you can ensure a viral moment is to post it across thousands of different

• 10:15John Coogan?

  accounts.

• 10:16Jordi Hays?

  Thousands.

• 10:17John Coogan?

  Thousands of accounts is a lot. This is also happening in music. I heard that, I mean, people, when it's done poorly, people call it astroturfing. But people, people are saying like, when, when Drake drops an album, he'll have the clippers like clip all the music and it goes out and it gets a lot of views that way. There is something just about like, it is somewhat hard to predict what will naturally go viral. So just like spamming everything out kind of gives you the opportunity for lots of like, you know, happy accidents.

• 10:46Jordi Hays?

  Lottery tickets.

• 10:47John Coogan?

  Lottery tickets, basically. But I still think a better strategy for most people will be what Dork Cash and David Senra are doing, where you have someone who really understands how to create something beautiful, even though it's a new format and people think of 60-second short form as like slop. It doesn't have to be, it can be elevated, it can be, can be thoughtful, it can be designed. Anyway, uh, let me tell you about fin.ai, the number one AI agent for customer service. They're number one in performance benchmarks, number one in competitive bake offs, and they have a number one ranking on G2.

• 11:19Jordi Hays?

  That's right, folks.

• 11:20John Coogan?

  Uh, Clue Lee's clipped contents generates around 800,000 views a day on platforms, including Instagram and TikTok. According to Lee, lovable and nothing said they were always looking for ways to reach new customers. Online marketplaces have developed to connect brands with clippers in the virtual markets. Brands post the rate they will pay and freelancers sign up to make clips. Clippers are paid anywhere from 50 cents to $2 per thousand views, motivating them to find the most shareable moments. Nathan Resnick, a 31 year old partner of a holding company called PCF Ventures that oversees businesses in insurance, wedding planning and real estate service pays 50 clippers he finds online roughly 15,000 a month to create and post short form videos promoting his company's businesses.

• 12:05John Coogan?

  It's not really that crazy when you consider we were spending $250,000 a month on Google and Meta to drive traffic to our websites. That's a good point. Again, this is like the arb, like this eventually will get competed down. A lot of this will be taken by platforms, Opus Clip, or maybe even just YouTube will do it. Instagram will do it. You'll just stream to Instagram or Facebook and it will make the clips itself. But, uh, but right now there is a huge, huge arbitrage.

• 12:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, 1X is, 1X has generally been sharp here. If you remember, they got their robot on Kaisa Not.

• 12:36John Coogan?

  Yep, they, yeah, they really understand the culture.

• 12:39Jordi Hays?

  Uh, friend of the show, Dar Sleeper, uh, total sleeper, uh, marketing sleeper.

• 12:45John Coogan?

  Yeah, he's great.

• 12:45Jordi Hays?

  Uh, he says, people in the company were like, what the heck is this kid doing? Uh, a week later, their little cousins were talking about it at the Thanksgiving table.

• 12:55John Coogan?

  There we go.

• 12:57Jordi Hays?

  Anyways, it's cool. It's cool. I think, uh, it's probably, like you said, a moment in time, probably not going to be like a, it's, it's hard to see it as, uh, the most enduring strategy that works right now. And a lot of businesses would be able to.

• 13:10John Coogan?

  It was, it was an insane, insane arb for Andrew Tate. And that became like, sort of commoditized, but we're still very early. And I think that, um, there will be a lot of, I mean, it does feel like.

• 13:21Jordi Hays?

  I think, I think that the, in the durable strategy is to.

• 13:27Jordi Hays?

  Do things that encourage people to clip them.

• 13:31John Coogan?

  And that's what Andrew Tate did for sure.

• 13:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. No, no, no, no, I'm saying.

• 13:34John Coogan?

  No, no, not just on the buying side, actually on the content side. Like, like when he would get on mic, he would say crazy things that would go viral.

• 13:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 13:42John Coogan?

  And so, and so he made it very easy. And whereas like if you are like an enterprise SaaS company and you hold a webinar, like you could hire a billion clippers and like you're probably not going to rip. Like, like, and that's why Clue Lee is like both doing stunts.

• 13:58Jordi Hays?

  Somebody should test it out.

• 13:59John Coogan?

  Test it out, Adio, let's, let's test it out. Customer relationship magic. Adio is the AI native.

• 14:04Jordi Hays?

  Clip this.

• 14:06John Coogan?

  That builds, scales and grows your company to the next level. Get started for free.

• 14:09Jordi Hays?

  Clip this right now.

• 14:10John Coogan?

  Clip this right now. Meta smart glasses with a display is incoming. Codename is Hypernova, priced $800, down from the expected $1,300. Zuck is cooking for real, for real, says Nick.

• 14:26John Coogan?

  Meta, so the price is, the price is going down and I mean, they're taking a real shot at, at the Apple Vision Pro, which of course was, was what 3,400?

• 14:38Jordi Hays?

  And I don't think we can say, I don't think we can say much else, but I think we've, have we not used this product?

• 14:43John Coogan?

  Well, so, so Orion is a different product.

• 14:46Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 14:47John Coogan?

  Orion is, is what was demoed and has been displayed and that's what Zuck is wearing on the left there. But we're, but we're not exactly sure what Hypernova is. It could be a, I mean, it's listed here in this article as a precursor to full blown augmented reality glasses. And so there has been a, there's been a third like option in the market for a while that people haven't really been paying attention to. So in the virtual reality smart glasses market, there's maybe a few different products. So the Meta Ray-Bans and the Meta Oakleys have been successful. Like people are actually buying those, they're wearing them, they're taking pictures with them. They're also using them as an AirPods replacement wireless headphones.

• 15:31John Coogan?

  They use them for speaker, for music while they're running. They're like, they definitely have adopted. It might not be the biggest product of all time yet, but it's definitely working and so they're scaling that up. Then you have the VR headsets, the Quest, the full virtual reality. There's some pass through, but in general, people think of that as a virtual reality headset, of course. First created by Palmer Lucky at Oculus, sold into Meta and Facebook and now rebranded as the Quest. The Quest has been selling pretty well, but it still probably suffers from churn. We see the chart spike on Christmas where everyone gets a new Quest VR headset.

• 16:15Jordi Hays?

  It's a great gift.

• 16:16John Coogan?

  They try it out, they download the app, they install it and then they stop using it for a while. I was talking to Tyler about this. We gave him a Quest 3 Pro, Quest 3 Mini, something like that.

• 16:26Jordi Hays?

  Quest 3S Xbox Edition.

• 16:28John Coogan?

  Quest 3S Xbox Edition. He played Call of Duty on it a little bit, played Halo on it.

• 16:33Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, for like, for like two weeks.

• 16:35John Coogan?

  And then ultimately churned.

• 16:36Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I'm just not that much of a gamer.

• 16:38John Coogan?

  Yeah, but you're supposed to be, it's supposed to be in everything device. You're supposed to be able to watch movies in it. You're supposed to be able to code in it. It should, in theory, replace your screen setup.

• 16:47Jordi Hays?

  To be able to cluely in it.

• 16:51John Coogan?

  But the fact that, the fact that they weren't able to find like a killer use case for someone like you means that they're still in that like hunting for the killer use case phase. Then there are the full augmented reality glasses where you're passing through the reality through glass. You're seeing the, you're seeing the real world. That's what we tried. That's what a lot of influencers have tried. Those are very much not.

• 17:12Jordi Hays?

  Well, the challenge is there's, there's, what are the technical capabilities of the product? And then what are the experiences available for that product? And they both need to, they clearly both need to improve.

• 17:26John Coogan?

  Totally, totally.

• 17:26Jordi Hays?

  In order to get, in order to get to the point where Tyler, we gotta be like pulling the, pulling the goggles off and being like Tyler, it's time to come to work.

• 17:34John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. So, so, so my take, when I had the Apple Vision Pro, it was, it was too heavy. It was really expensive and it felt like, oh, I would, I would churn for this eventually. So I returned it. But the one thing that I, that I did enjoy was I watched movies in it and I watched all of Citizen Kane in it from start to finish. And Citizen Kane is a great movie. Do you have a review for us, Tyler?

• 17:54Jordi Hays?

  I mean, it's, it's not that long. It's not, that's not like a long movie.

• 17:57John Coogan?

  It is, it is a, it's a challenging movie. Like it's not, it's not Mission Impossible Dead reckoning two.

• 18:04Jordi Hays?

  It's not even two hours long.

• 18:05John Coogan?

  The final reckoning. It's not, it's not Top Gear. It's not like it's like you sit down and you're just like, wow, this is so engaging. Like it is the type of, it is the type of movie that if you have modern brain rot, you will pull out your phone and be like, let me check Twitter.

• 18:18Jordi Hays?

  Okay, yeah.

• 18:19John Coogan?

  For sure, for sure. Like, like it is, it is, it is, it is as close as you can get to like cracking open a book, in my opinion.

• 18:26Jordi Hays?

  I could give you movies closer to that.

• 18:28John Coogan?

  Okay, yeah. Something really, uh, something really dense. But, but i- i- it's a slower paced movie. It's something that, I mean, it's even, it's even in like four by three. So on a modern TV, it's not gonna render properly.

• 18:40Jordi Hays?

  It's like UFC 319, right?

• 18:42John Coogan?

  I couldn't agree more. Exactly like that.

• 18:46John Coogan?

  So, so my, but my, my takeaway was that like, like the, the killer app, like the rumor was that the person who worked on the Apple Vision Pro was previously at Dolby and had worked on the Dolby immersive cinema project. And so if you wanted to understand, like, the, the viewpoint of the team behind the Vision Pro was that it was a home theater on your face for, that you didn't need to buy an extra room for. And I felt like that was what it delivered on very well, except it was too heavy, too hot, a little bit too expensive. But the actual killer use case, I felt like it was there because if you love a movie and you throw it on, like the content is solved.

• 19:26John Coogan?

  Like you can watch a great movie and be like, that was a good movie. And you're letting the movie, we talked about this with Marc Andreessen, where I was like, the iPhone was a good iPhone, was a good phone. And he was like, no, it wasn't. Um, which is maybe a good take, but eventually it was.

• 19:37Jordi Hays?

  Didn't have copy and paste.

• 19:39John Coogan?

  No, yeah, yeah. Well, uh, you know, you're like the Motorola Razr V3 didn't have copy and paste. But it could make reliable phone calls. And so my take was like.

• 19:47Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it's just worth remembering that, that it had some extreme shortcomings and it was frustrating to use in.

• 19:53John Coogan?

  Yeah, but it was, but it was easy to justify pretty quickly as, as a device that replaced another experience. Whereas it's, it's much harder. It's like the Apple Watch works for those people because they're like, I want to know the time on my wrist. I'm used to wearing a watch. That's easier. It's much harder to be like, pendant. A lot of people wear pins all the time. It's a harder, it's a harder act, the activation energy is higher. So I was always saying that, that going to making the movie experience really, really strong would be like in an obvious but killer app. I don't know if people agree, but Mark Gurman's talking about this in context of the Apple Vision Pro. He says, Apple Vision Pro is suffering from a lack of immersive video. Apple has slow walked the release of immersive video, creating a conundrum for the Vision Pro.

• 20:38John Coogan?

  The company's AI and smartphone, smart home roadmaps are, have, have come out, but when you get down to the core of the problem, Apple's vision, Apple visions pro, Apple's Vision Pro headset isn't selling well for two reasons. One, it's $3,500 price tag and a lack of sufficiently compelling features. There are other issues like a limited array of custom applications, the device's weight and a cumbersome setup process, but those are less important. Developers are continuing to release apps and there are now accessories that make the device feel lighter on your face. I'm gonna try those. Apple has also dramatically improved its operating system, the latest version of the Vision Pro software, Vision OS 26 now offers widgets and has been well received. But none of that matters for Apple if people don't buy the Vision Pro.

• 21:24John Coogan?

  By all accounts, the device remains an extremely niche project, product. I'd venture to guess Apple has sold well under 1 million units in the US since launching it a year and a half ago. Moreover, the headset just doesn't feel like a priority for Apple on the company's last earnings call.

• 21:40Jordi Hays?

  I wonder how many of those units have been returned?

• 21:42John Coogan?

  That's a good question. I mean, I would assume if you're quoting sales, you have to not include returns. I wouldn't be surprised if they've still sold.

• 21:50Jordi Hays?

  I don't know, you can count sold.

• 21:53John Coogan?

  That's very sketchy if they include that.

• 21:55Jordi Hays?

  Well, no, but he's, he's guessing. I'm just saying, I, I just wonder what the return rate is. Cause didn't you return your?

• 22:00John Coogan?

  Yeah, I think it was probably like 50%. They probably sold 2 million. They wound up like leaving 1 million out in the market, basically. I mean, they have so many Apple stores and it's such a device and, you know, it's such a moment, like it took over the timeline. It was the current thing for like three days. People were talking about it. A lot, a lot of people tested it out. A lot of people kept them. A lot of people have the disposable income, but yeah, 1 million does even seem high.

• 22:21Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. This is interesting. So Gurman says, more over the headset just doesn't feel like a priority to Apple on the company's last earnings call. CEO Tim Cook almost seemed surprised when a Wall Street analyst quizzed him about the device and the company's strategy. Thanks for bringing it up, he said before delving.

• 22:37John Coogan?

  Hmm.

• 22:38Jordi Hays?

  Mark Gurman is delving, interesting.

• 22:40John Coogan?

  Oh.

• 22:40Jordi Hays?

  Before delving into new software features and asserting that it's an area we really believe in. So Gurman says in the near term, Apple isn't going to dramatically improve the Vision Pro. The next version coming as soon as this year will mostly just get a faster chip. That's a necessary upgrade. The current M2 chip is outdated for such a processor intensive device, but it's not going to change the way that people think about the Vision Pro. The bigger upgrade is coming in 2027 when Apple will release a model that is both cheaper and lighter. He's reported, but that's a long time to wait and there's a risk that the category simply dies out by then. I think that I know a lot of developers that were super excited to capitalize on the release of Vision Pro.

• 23:21Jordi Hays?

  They had all this energy and excitement around getting access to the product, starting to build applications for it. And I don't know that any of them are still building for the product.

• 23:31John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 23:31Jordi Hays?

  Which is a problem, this sort of like chicken, chicken and egg problem.

• 23:36John Coogan?

  Uh, Apple, so he provides a couple of examples of like how little immersive video Apple has really released. Uh, Apple is still featuring a highlight reel shot in immersive video of the NBA All-Star game from 2025. To be clear, the 2020, uh, from 2024, to be clear, the 2025 All-Star game played a year after the one Apple is showcasing took place six months ago. And there's no immersion immersive vision of on the Vision Pro. Like you would assume they shouldn't have just said, hey, let's go shoot one immersive video of the All-Star game. It's like, what is our NBA strategy?

• 24:11Jordi Hays?

  What is our immersive video schedule?

• 24:13John Coogan?

  Yeah. And what is our strategy to get 1% more content onto this device every single day forever?

• 24:18Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, or just have a big release every Friday.

• 24:21John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 24:21Jordi Hays?

  Like you sold a $3,500 device to a million-ish people.

• 24:25John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 24:25Jordi Hays?

  You should probably figure out how to deliver them like content that makes it valuable.

• 24:29John Coogan?

  If you look at the number of minutes that are being uploaded to YouTube every day, like that number has probably been increasing every day since they started the company, basically. Like it's just, it's just slightly more every single day. Sure, they probably have a few. Down days, but in general, like, social networks, the amount of content on them should be growing every single day.

• 24:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 24:50John Coogan?

  Any sort of media device, I'm sure Netflix is not like, oh, yeah, like, you know, next year, we're gonna have less content on Netflix. That would be insane.

• 24:58Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, so apparently the immersive content shoots are extraordinarily expensive and resource intensive, so.

• 25:04John Coogan?

  That is crazy because I I looked into how expensive it is to shoot an immersive video, and I feel like it's actually not that expensive. Like, yes, you need the fancy black magic cinema camera that actually just came out with a special lens, but you can just set it up. It can film for forty five minutes on one, like, you know, SSD, basically, and and you can just upload that. The problem is is that you can't, if you're doing CGI and you're doing editing and you're doing like scripting and storytelling and all that, like, the the killer use case needs to be, take the immersive video camera, put it somewhere cool, and then allow people to watch that, like, in in Vision Pro, and that needs to be it.

• 25:47John Coogan?

  And so, this was, this was, uh, Ben Thompson's.

• 25:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, it feels like there's so much, so much that they could do. You could take immersive video behind the scenes for the F1 movie.

• 25:57John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 25:57Jordi Hays?

  And make that available to people.

• 25:58John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 26:00Jordi Hays?

  It's like you can buy, buy this, you can watch F1, you can watch behind the scenes with the actors, producers, directors. There's just a lot that they could do, but I think, I think there needs to be something for users to really look forward to if they're gonna invest in in this device, and right now it doesn't.

• 26:16John Coogan?

  Yeah, the other thing is like, they should have, I feel like they should have done more, like, there was a little bit of like, uh, revealed preference in the fact that when you open up the Vision Pro, the app that's in the top left corner, like, the first app, if you are reading left to right, like a book, uh, is the Apple TV app. Like, it's very much like, you should go watch a movie right now. You should click on this. And then there's some other stuff, but mainly, it feels like they're pushing that. But they should have done more to really, to really make it like a movie watching environment, something that that that people really, uh, they're really focusing on that narrowing instead of trying to do like, seven different things. Is it for gaming? Is it for,

• 26:55John Coogan?

  like, educational content? Is it for this prehistoric planet thing and these like dinosaur stuff or games or collaboration? They had FaceTime in there. They just like threw a lot in there, and I feel like none of them were breakout, instead of just like. Chopping it down and being like, okay, like this is going to be the best place to watch an IMAX movie in 3D. And so like, you should get one of these specifically for this. I don't know, maybe it won't even work if they pulled that off. But it'll be interesting because Meta is going to fire back and it will be, so there'll be a small screen for mini apps and alerts in the right, on the right lens and the spectacles can be controlled via the neural wrist accessory. So think about it like Meta Ray-Bans plus Google Glass, basically. So you have to look up here and

• 27:40John Coogan?

  you can see notifications, you can see a little bit. There is a, there is a different, there's a different set of companies that are building basically movie theater watching glasses. So it's just a big screen. It's not VR, AR, it's not positionally mounted. It's just a screen on your face at a much lower price. I haven't tried them. I don't think that they're fully there in terms of resolution. A lot of this is just like waiting around for the screen in the Apple Vision Pro to commoditize to the point where, where other companies can start taking that same screen and putting it in other stuff, giving like actually doing all the testing and then Apple will ultimately like take that back.

• 28:20Jordi Hays?

  Thank you.

• 28:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, it was like, I'm pretty sure like the multi-touch screens, like those were out there in other, like the technology existed in other phones, but it just was poorly implemented and Apple was able to come in and do like the virtual.

• 28:31Jordi Hays?

  There is an article from Eric Berger saying after recent tests, China appears likely to beat the United States back to the moon.

• 28:39John Coogan?

  This is the Casey Hammer point.

• 28:40Jordi Hays?

  Eric says, I went there because it's, because at this point it's difficult to come to any other conclusion. And he is writing this article to explain

• 28:49John Coogan?

  Eric Berger's and Ars Technicolor's great

• 28:51Jordi Hays?

  enormously bad for the United States.

• 28:52John Coogan?

  space reporter.

• 28:53Jordi Hays?

  So in recent weeks, the secretive Chinese space program has reported some significant milestones in developing its program to land astronauts on the lunar surface by the year 2030. On August 6th, the China, China manned space agency successfully tested a high fidelity mock-up of its 26-ton line.

• 29:12Jordi Hays?

  Lunar lander. The test conducted outside of Beijing used giant tethers to simulate lunar gravity as the vehicle fire fired main engines and fine control thrusters to land on a cratered surface and take off from there. The test, said the agency in an official statement, represents a key step in the development of China's manned lunar exploration program and also marks the first time that China has carried out a test of extraterrestrial landing and takeoff capabilities of a manned spacecraft. As part of the statement, the space agency reconfirmed that it plans to land its astronauts on the moon before 2030. Then last Friday, the space agency and its state-operated rocket developer, the China

• 29:51Jordi Hays?

  Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, pretty hard name, successfully conducted a 30-second test firing of the Long March 10 rocket's center core with its seven YF-100K engines that burn kerosene and liquid oxygen. The primary variant of the rocket will combine three of these cores to lift about 70 metric tons to low Earth orbit. These successful efforts followed a launch escape system test of the new Mengzhu spacecraft in June. A version of the spacecraft is planned for lunar missions. Thus, China's space program is making a demonstratable progress in all three of the major elements of its space program: the large rocket to launch a crew spacecraft,

• 30:34Jordi Hays?

  which will carry humans to lunar orbit, plus the lander that will take astronauts down to the surface and back. This work suggests that China is on course to land on the moon before the end of this decade. For the United States and its allies in space, there are reasons to be dismissive of this. For one, NASA landed humans on the moon nearly six decades ago with the Apollo program. Been there, done that. Moreover, the initial phases of the Chinese program look derivative of Apollo, particularly a lander that is strikingly resembles the lunar module. NASA can justifiably point to its Artemis program and say it's attempting to learn the lessons from Apollo, that the program was canceled because it was not sustainable. With its lunar landers, NASA seeks to develop in-space propellant storage and refueling

• 31:19Jordi Hays?

  technology allowing for lower-cost, reusable lunar missions with the capability to bring much more mass to the moon and back, that should eventually allow for the development of a lunar economy and enable robust government-commercial enterprise. But recent setbacks with SpaceX Starship Vehicle, one of two lunar landers under contract with NASA, alongside Blue Origin's Mark II lander, indicate that it will still be several years until these newer technologies are ready to go. So it's now probable that China will "beat NASA back to the moon" this decade and win at least the initial heat of this new space race. To put this in perspective, ours connected with Dean Chung, one of the most respected analysts on China space policy and the geopolitical implications of the new space competition.

• 32:03John Coogan?

  Silicon Valley cannot save us at this point. Only Wall Street can save us. The solution is make the moon a state, as Mike Solana suggested, create mortgages on the moon, and then securitize them.

• 32:18Jordi Hays?

  And allow retail to go long.

• 32:21John Coogan?

  Once BlackRock owns 75% of the moon, then we're in business.

• 32:26Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, they've been getting, uh, Wall Street's been getting pushback on owning single-family homes.

• 32:31John Coogan?

  They own 99% of them.

• 32:33Jordi Hays?

  Let's divert that capital to...

• 32:34John Coogan?

  Blackstone owns 99% of all the houses in America now. They own all of them. They bought my house from me. I didn't want them, I didn't want them to. They just bought it from me. I didn't have an option.

• 32:44Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 32:45John Coogan?

  They were like, "Sale and lease back. You rent now."

• 32:47Jordi Hays?

  You will own nothing and will be happy.

• 32:49John Coogan?

  Yes, that's exactly what happened. No, they actually own like 1% of the house.

• 32:53Jordi Hays?

  But Dean says the Lanyu lander is significant because it's part of the usual China, Chinese crawl, walk, run approach to a major space project. The People's Republic of China can benefit from other people's experiences. Much of NASA's information is open, but they still have to build and operate the spacecrafts themselves. So the test of the Lanyu lander, successful or not, is an important part of that process. So anyways, important to flag, we've had a lot of wins in the space industry recently.

• 33:20John Coogan?

  It's tough, it's tough to bootstrap an economy like... It is an incredible milestone and yet America's done it. So there's not as much of an incentive just to be the first. It's not superlative. And then the question for SpaceX is, are you better off landing on the moon or just putting up more Starlinks and just making more subscriptions? Like, it is, it is a little bit harder to underwrite in the early stage. It takes a long time. And maybe you need a new government program, some sort of incentive. I mean, fortunately, like we Firefly's been to the moon, Blue Origin's planning, SpaceX is planning, like, there are a lot of competitive American companies that are working towards it. But the underlying incentive, there's just other ways to make money in

• 34:05John Coogan?

  space right now, that might be higher value. Although it will be a very weird moment if, if China's just up and back on the moon, constantly running around, bouncing around, live streaming from the moon. We got to get back.

• 34:19Jordi Hays?

  You got to get back.

• 34:21John Coogan?

  Welcome to the stream, Mark. How are you doing?

• 34:23Mark Cuban?

  Good, guys. How y'all?

• 34:25John Coogan?

  We're doing great. Thanks so much for taking the time. Good to meet you. Where should we kick it off, Jordy?

• 34:30Jordi Hays?

  Where should we start?

• 34:31John Coogan?

  Dive straight into the debate over artificial intelligence and advertising.

• 34:35Mark Cuban?

  Sure.

• 34:36John Coogan?

  Maybe you could set the stage for us. What, what set off your alarm bells? What triggered your initial worry about this idea of ads in LLMs?

• 34:49Mark Cuban?

  Because this isn't the internet, right? It's not just a normal digital platform. It's, it's a platform that depending on how it's trained, depending on what pre-prompts you put in, it could be very manipulative. And there's not really age limitations at all. There's not really any limitations whatsoever. And normally I'd be, let's just be laissez-faire, right? The market is the market. But you've already heard, you know, of stories of kids going down these rabbit holes and, you know, other people being told, you know, to kill themselves. And you just, you just don't know what can happen. So if I, if, if I build a model and it becomes popular, even if it's only a niche model.

• 35:33Mark Cuban?

  Right? Just like there's headspace and there's calm. Let's just say I build the calm AI large language model. And I have millions and millions of users and I want, and I have an advertiser who sells Xanax or sells, you know, whatever, right? And they're trying to get more sales and I need the money. I can easily, easily train this thing to manipulate people into doing things we typically would not allow people to do. And that's my concern. And so if we just want to put up, you know, um, just little ad, traditional graphics, JPEG ads, all, you know, put them into the chat list on the left-hand side.

• 36:19Mark Cuban?

  Great. You can do all the display ads you want. You could do video there, all you want. But if it's in the response that comes back from the model, boy, you're, you're going to have lots of problems.

• 36:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, I think, I think Sam Altman said something to this effect, saying that artificial intelligence will be superhuman at persuasion before it is truly super intelligent. It will be very good at convincing people. So it is reasonable. What do you think of Sam Altman's latest commentary on how OpenAI might get into this world? That the actual LLM interaction, the chat would not be, would not be monetizable. But if you, if it made a recommendation to buy a product and then you said, hey, I want you to go check out for me. It sends out.

• 37:03Mark Cuban?

  It's already doing that, right?

• 37:04John Coogan?

  Yeah, it's already. Referral fee, is that okay?

• 37:07Mark Cuban?

  Yeah, it's already doing it. You know, it's, it's, you know, it's one thing to have the model itself convey and try to manipulate. It's a whole nother thing when there's a search query.

• 37:18John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 37:18Mark Cuban?

  Right? We get a lot of traffic from, um, um, OpenAI ChatGPT for costplusdrugs.com.

• 37:25John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 37:25Mark Cuban?

  In fact, I've used it because sometimes if I want a price for one of our drugs and I, I don't want to take the time to look at the latest price list. I'll just put in what's the price for, you know, Deriprim, whatever it may be. And, um, it's right there.

• 37:38John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 37:39Mark Cuban?

  And so, yeah, of course they can extend that, but response is a whole, and models are, are smart enough to know what the difference between a response to a query versus influencing and engaging in a chat.

• 37:54John Coogan?

  I guess the question is.

• 37:55Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, I think I think to double down on what you're saying, an example, if you're going from search, which is people coming in with a specific intent and maybe doing some product research and you have ads and you have, you know, organic listings or webpages, that's one thing. But if if if various AI models are seen as trusted advisors, if you compare that to a situation, if I ask John, what kind of car should I get? And John starts giving me answers and saying, like, I think you should, I really think you should get this car. It's really nice. And then I buy it. And then later, I find out John was getting a 10% kickback. I'm like, hopefully, I like the car. But if I didn't, what are you doing? You know, and this happens in a business

• 38:40Jordi Hays?

  context, too. You might, you know, people get in hot water all the time because they're taking referral.

• 38:45Mark Cuban?

  Yeah. In this particular case, it's really easy. Just like, you know, there's, you know, a emoji for sources or just says sources, you could put a dollar sign just to show they're being compensated.

• 38:56John Coogan?

  Sure, sure, sure. And do you think that needs to happen at like the FTC FCC level? Or are you, do you think?

• 39:01Mark Cuban?

  I don't know the legal aspect of it enough. You know, hopefully, it's self enforced. But you know, there's the idiots and assholes who don't self enforce.

• 39:10John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 39:10Mark Cuban?

  And particularly for medical stuff. I mean, it's easier to chat GPT about your own personal medical situation than it is to find a doctor to talk to sometimes.

• 39:20John Coogan?

  But does that calm example you gave matter? Because like, I imagine that there'll be a power law outcome here. And yes, I could set up a search engine that serves that serves ads and doesn't disclose that they're ads. But how am I going to take market share from Google? People are going to go to Google and Google does say when it's an ad. And so, like, as long as the power law winner is a good actor, we kind of get the good outcome.

• 39:44Jordi Hays?

  There's also an interesting thing where there's the self self enforcing sort of positive effect, which is if if people rely on chat GPT, for example, to help them do product research and buy the right products, and you buy a bunch of bad products in a row because they're just pushing the the product that that they're getting paid the most, eventually, I do think that consumers are smart enough to realize, I'm not going to use this app anymore.

• 40:08Mark Cuban?

  I wouldn't agree with that, Jordy, because I think people are primed for misinformation these days. You see it in healthcare continuously, you know, you saw it with COVID vaccines. People on their deathbed saying, I wish I had taken the vaccine, you know, and you see it now with, you know, um, raw milk, where now there's more people who have, you know, there's examples of people who have died. And people just don't care.

• 40:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 40:33Mark Cuban?

  You know, they just go on and maybe they'll say, you know, ChatGPT is woke, so I'm using RightGPT.

• 40:40Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 40:40Mark Cuban?

  And that's because those are the kinds of answers I want. Because, you know, there are people who want to be influenced and want to be part of a group when it comes to the product decisions, just like we saw the anti-Bud Light and that kind of bills. And you see pro right wing products. I just don't know that it is an efficient market enough where people are going to take responsibility for just making a bad product choice and then going to another source. There's just so much personal identity in how we use technology, that's part of my concern.

• 41:16Jordi Hays?

  How, how worried would, would you say you are about AI broadly? I think over the last few months, the industry has woken up to, uh, you know, a, a year ago, people were kind of laughing about AI safety, right? And, and thinking about these fast takeoff scenarios. Now I think people are kind of waking up and worried about the general well being. If you just give hundreds of millions of people, you know, unlimited access to these tools, you know, they are gonna, there, there is gonna be, uh, some effects, some people will be good, some people will be bad. But, but what's your, what's your high level read?

• 41:51Mark Cuban?

  Well, it's changed a lot. We went from fear of the Terminator.

• 41:54Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 41:54Mark Cuban?

  To fear of being influenced in ways we didn't expect because they're such good communicators, right? We can't talk to other people or we feel, you know, shy or not open in communicating with other people, experts or friends or otherwise, but this is our best friend who never gives us. A hard time and depending on how it's programmed will complement. What a great question, Jordy.

• 42:21Mark Cuban?

  That is a really interesting approach. So a lot of things to be concerned with there, particularly because AI is not smart.

• 42:29Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 42:30Mark Cuban?

  Right? AI is just statistical right now and I'm of the mindset that that's not going to change for a long time. You know, one of the reasons that you don't see full self-driving cars that are just everybody using no matter what is because it's it's easy. There's so many adversarial things that can happen to a car. You know, we have um a Australian, many Australian German Shepherd or a million Australian Shepherd, right, Tux? And about six years old, I trust Tux at an intersection to know when to cross before, you know, that he's never been to before, before I trust a car. And that's the whole point with AI because there there are just rules and laws and latencies

• 43:15Mark Cuban?

  that they that it can't account for. It's all text, some graphics, some video, but it's always behind. And then that's part one. Part two, we're, I think we're going to see a groundswell in how um intellectual property is dealt with, a groundswell change in how IP is dealt with. Because there was for a long time, it's been publish or perish. Get your stuff out there, get it into journals, make it available so that you can present yourself as being an expert. Well, the minute you do that right now, it's going to get absorbed into, you know, training data for these models and you've lost everything you've just created.

• 43:56Jordi Hays?

  Well, what if I want to, what if I'm taking the side of big raw milk and I want to, and I want to get people and so I should just write as much as I can about how great it is.

• 44:05Mark Cuban?

  Your people are going to use bots to try to influence, to post things to try to influence like the um robots dot text for AI, you know, for AI. You can, you can structure it in ways where you can set up sites where you can tell it exactly where to go, you know, tell it all why raw milk is amazing, right? But the bigger point is. AI doesn't understand death. AI doesn't understand pain. AI doesn't understand context. AI doesn't know what happened two minutes ago. It doesn't know that there was a plane crash as it's about to tell you or something happened, right? AI can't tell you why that ball fell off the table unless you tell it. You know, this ball fell off the table. What happened next, right? It's just not smart.

• 44:49Mark Cuban?

  And as long as it's not smart, A, it can be influenced and B, you're just not going to know what it's going to do next. Cause it can't, it doesn't have judgment.

• 44:59John Coogan?

  So what would you tell the folks at OpenAI and the other foundation model labs on how to structure their business? It feels like a firewall between, there needs to be some sort of truth seeking organization that's focused on, on delivering the highest quality results and then on the flip side, you have a monetization team.

• 45:17Mark Cuban?

  No, I mean, you can't check for quality. That's impossible.

• 45:21John Coogan?

  Yeah, of course you can. You like, you can, you can always like benchmark these things or just like vibe test them with the, with the, with the audience.

• 45:28Mark Cuban?

  You know, Jordy was giving me shit online. I was giving Jordy shit online.

• 45:32John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 45:33Mark Cuban?

  Vibe test is going to be completely different, right?

• 45:35John Coogan?

  What I'm saying is like, is like Google, Google does try and, try and deliver the highest quality search results for a particular query. And then separately, they have an ad auction function that, that adds as an ad platform. And those two teams are separate. And so like, if your age, if your age is showing up as one of those like knowledge boxes on Google, you can't just pay to have them change it. Like that's a separate business line and it's a separate team and they are separate products in the UI. Yes, they exist on the same page, but they're separate.

• 46:08Mark Cuban?

  And that's fine, right? I mean, to me, the bigger questions are what's the value proposition for AI as we understand it today? Or at least as I understand it today, right? I don't see AI getting smart. I look at AI and I think it's the world's best library. Let me explain it in another way. We all have that one friend that remembers everything.

• 46:31John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 46:32Mark Cuban?

  Everything, right? Hey, what did we do that one day back in college? Remember when, you know, our one buddy? Oh, yeah, this is da, da, da, da. That's AI. They'll, it'll remember everything. It'll give you the, you know, if you give it A, B, and C, it'll figure out D, E, and F. Right? But it doesn't even know X, Y, Z exists, just like your bike. So it is just like the world's biggest library. It is just like a meeting of, of the minds of, of just regurgitation. And so knowing that, then you, you have to, there's gonna be so much competition between the models. That is the biggest driver right now in terms of revenue generation.

• 47:13Mark Cuban?

  Right? Because there's not, there'll be five, six, whatever it is foundational models before this consolidation. But beyond that, there's gonna be millions of models, millions of millions of models. And every brand is going to need a model, particularly like in healthcare. Like if you are Stanford Medical, right? If you are Mayo Clinic, if you're M D Anderson. You're not gonna just, you know, put out all your IP from the doctors and researchers and scientists you're paying. So that Chat G P T can absorb it and have the benefit of all that knowledge. So it remembers everything that, that all your doctors and scientists did.

• 47:53Mark Cuban?

  You're gonna keep that to yourself. And so in terms of the business models, these guys are gonna have to start making decisions. Are they start, gonna start paying a lot of money for content? Cause as much as they're investing in the technology, they've reached a lot of limits, right? You don't, you're not hearing about, wow, these guys are getting to do these new topics that I had no idea that they could cover.

• 48:17John Coogan?

  They're paying for a ton of content, to be clear. I mean, they pay Reddit, they pay the New York Times, they pay all sorts of.

• 48:23Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we had, we had a group reach out wanting to buy our back catalog. I was like, I assumed you already scraped it.

• 48:31Mark Cuban?

  But, but think of it, if you're, I mean, let's talk about from the government perspective.

• 48:35John Coogan?

  Sure.

• 48:35Mark Cuban?

  So they just cut all these NIH grants, right? All this stuff that presumably went and created new drugs, which they have, right?

• 48:44John Coogan?

  Foundational research, basic science.

• 48:45Mark Cuban?

  All this research.

• 48:47John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 48:47Mark Cuban?

  If the government really understood AI, they'd be like, okay, we're going to keep on investing in this research and then I'm going to make it available to the biggest bid, the highest bidder.

• 48:59John Coogan?

  Privatize it. I like that. Make some money off of it.

• 49:04Mark Cuban?

  Not even necessarily privatizing it, but monetizing it.

• 49:07John Coogan?

  Monetizing it. I like this. This is good. Make some money off of that nonprofit research.

• 49:12Mark Cuban?

  Well, I mean, because that's the way things are working right now, right? And I don't have, honestly, I don't have a problem with that at all if it gets us more solutions. But, or do our own, you know, the government do its own model and making that available for a fee.

• 49:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:27Mark Cuban?

  Those decisions from a business perspective that all these models are going to have to make. Otherwise, how do they keep on adding more training data? Because there's no way to synthesize all that shit. You're not synthesizing, you're not creating synthetic data that all of a sudden is going to, you know, you could tell, you can give it all the backstory you want, that you're a doctor, that you invented this, that you did that. It ain't going to invent what the doctor and the scientists are going to invent.

• 49:51John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 49:52Jordi Hays?

  At any point during the AI hype cycle so far, did you think that this time might be different? There was, I would say, a year ago, the common, a common line was, this isn't like the internet bubble because there's real revenue. You know, these companies are ramping revenue to hundreds or billions of dollars of revenue very quickly. This is different. This time is different. Meanwhile, and, and I wouldn't lean on this too heavily, but MIT had a report this week saying that, you know, 95% of, of Gen AI pilots in the enterprise are not turning into, uh, not creating real value. I'm curious what your read has been.

• 50:30Mark Cuban?

  I've been through every single technology, you know, event and evolution, and this blows them all away. Now, how you implement it in business is a whole different issue. Like literally when I was 24, I was walking into companies who had never seen a PC before in their lives and explaining to them the value and having these guys going, well, son, I got this receptionist right there. I got that secretary. I'm never going to need that shit ever. Right? And but then, you know, my business then was helping them figure out how to implement it to give them an advantage.

• 51:04Jordi Hays?

  Yep.

• 51:04Mark Cuban?

  They're going to be integrators that particularly young kids, like when I'm telling my kids who are fifteen, eighteen, twenty-one, or nineteen, twenty-one, and kids going to school, what should I do? What should I do? I'd be like.

• 51:15Jordi Hays?

  AI research.

• 51:17Mark Cuban?

  Learn all you can about AI, but learn more on how to implement them in companies, right? Because to your point, companies don't understand how to implement all that right now to get a competitive advantage. You got the head of Microsoft saying, software is dead because everything's going to be customized to your unique utilization, right? Or use- usage. Who's going to do it for them? Particularly small to medium sized businesses. There are thirty-three million companies in this country. Thirty million of them are solopreneurs, right? Um, single person enterprises. There are only, you know, there are millions of companies that have one, five, ten, fifty, a hundred, five hundred people that aren't going to have AI budgets, aren't going to

• 52:01Mark Cuban?

  have AI experts. This is where kids getting hired, coming out of college are really going to have a unique opportunity. If you're spending your senior year in college right now, your senior year in high school even, whatever it is, your excess time, and you're learning the difference between Sora and Vio, and you're learning how to do all this video, you're learning how to customize a model so that then you can then walk into a company and say, I understand your business as a shoe company selling shoes at a retail store. We're selling and selling shoes online. Let me show you how to benefit you.

• 52:35Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 52:35Mark Cuban?

  That is every single job that's going to be available for kids coming out of school because every single company needs that. There is nothing intuitive for a company to integrate AI. And that's what people don't understand.

• 52:50Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we hired two, we hired two interns this summer at the end of the last school year because they just built products instead of saying, hey, here's what I can do. They just showed us, they took a day and just built something. We said.

• 53:03Mark Cuban?

  And they didn't take a day, right? They went to ChatGPT or Perplexity.

• 53:06Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, the bear, the bear case John was joking about this, though. I thought this was interesting. Uh, we, we, we had one of our interns built this product. It's tbpn.com slash gas. It's this guest directory transcript tool. And he built it in a day, but then he had to spend the whole summer improving it. So that was a, that was a bull case for software engineers still having a job.

• 53:27John Coogan?

  But

• 53:28Mark Cuban?

  You don't even have to be a software engineer, right?

• 53:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 53:30Mark Cuban?

  You just have, people are afraid to ask the models the right questions. They're afraid to ask complex questions because they just presume that it can't, they can't answer. Kids coming out of school today that are fearless in the questions they ask and the follow-ups and their ability to prompt. They have more skill than everybody in every major corporation with under a thousand employees, right?

• 53:54John Coogan?

  I completely agree with this.

• 53:55Mark Cuban?

  That's jobs for everybody.

• 53:56John Coogan?

  This feels like a, it feels like you're making the argument for putting ads in AI and keeping it free so that kids can have access to frontier models. And then go and, and explore, learn, implement things at businesses. If all of a sudden you can't get in the game, you can't even interact with a cutting edge.

• 54:14Jordi Hays?

  Well, Mark's saying he's cool with display ads. He's cool with a Labubu showing up in the sidebar.

• 54:19Mark Cuban?

  Yeah, on the side, right chat. That's fine. But think of it, you're, okay. There's a death war going on with the frontier models.

• 54:25John Coogan?

  Yes.

• 54:26Mark Cuban?

  War.

• 54:27John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:27Mark Cuban?

  It's zero sum game in their minds. Not all will make it. Some will get consolidated. Maybe one goes out of business.

• 54:33John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 54:33Mark Cuban?

  Right? And so for the next however many years, however long, there used to be a time when Excel costs $499. To buy a spreadsheet. Now it's free. You know, it's not free, but like

• 54:47John Coogan?

  Basically.

• 54:48Mark Cuban?

  Google, yeah, Google Sheets, right? Google Docs, et cetera. The basic models are always going to be free.

• 54:56John Coogan?

  Because of ads. Like, the reason Google Sheets is free is because of Google's ads business.

• 55:00Mark Cuban?

  When was the last time you saw an ad in Google Sheets?

• 55:03John Coogan?

  No, you don't. But, but the reason that they can subsidize is because they have this amazing ads business over here that throws off so much cash, they don't care about monetizing it.

• 55:09Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, but in the case, I mean, to, to, to, uh, to, to take Mark's side here, I mean, a, a subscription product also subsidizes a free product.

• 55:19Mark Cuban?

  Sure. That, that's exactly right. So you're gonna have tiers, right? Free, your college, your, your kids' version, free. And those, those, those versions are going to have more constraints. Because they know high school kids, you know, seven year old kids are going to use them. Yeah. So there'll be all kinds of limits built in. Yeah. But then you get your twenty dollar version. And ChatGPT is doing what, twelve billion dollars annualizing, growing quickly? Yep. That's insane. Love, you know, lovable. All these guys were just crushing it. And like, I, I, I was the first investor in a company called Synthesia, which does, you know, talking avatars, I don't know if you know those guys. Cool. Yeah, they're killing it. That's great. Killing it, it's just up and to the right. Yep. You start them off with, it's just a whole freemium model.

• 56:04Mark Cuban?

  Sure. That's been around forever. And I think that's going to happen. But as, you know, we talked earlier about buying IP. You'll see things go into different directions. Mm hmm. So you'll have a ChatGPT slash healthcare, and if you want that, it's an extra five bucks a month. You'll see ChatGPT programming, or math, or foreign lang- duolingo version, right? And it might be an extra fifty cents a month, or a dollar a month, whatever it may be. And then there'll be, you know, entrepreneur version, and it'll have all the integrations into all the, the states so that you just, you know, fill in these forms and you're incorporated wherever you want to be incorporated. Because all the agents will do all the work.

• 56:47Mark Cuban?

  All that stuff, you can upsell. Yeah. And so, but if they're not using your model i- in high school, they ain't going to use it in college. If they ain't using it in college, when they go for that, to that company, they're not going to use you. Yep. And I think that is a big deal. But I can't say it enough, all these people were in a transit, transition period right now for kids coming out of college, whether you have a computer science degree or not. But you're not trying to go to the big companies to get a computer science degree, probably not the right way to go. Going to any other company who has no idea about AI but needs it in order to compete,

• 57:30Mark Cuban?

  there'll be more jobs than, than people for a long, long time. Because there's only going to, there's going to be two types of companies in this country, in the world. Those who are great at AI and everybody else. And this is not, AI is not intuitive. You're not going to take a forty year old who's worked at a company for fifteen years and say, go play with ChatGPT and figure out how we can improve our, our productivity and improve our processes. Some people will put in the time to learn it, but it's not intuitive to pull all those pieces together and extend them with agents and have the agents start doing things. And then, you know, writing the software on lovable or whatever and having all that's, it's going to be intuitive for, for digital natives and Gen Z who are going through school and graduating with that.

• 58:15Mark Cuban?

  That is going to be jobs left and right.

• 58:18John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 58:18Jordi Hays?

  Totally agree. Uh, wanted to get your, we were just on with Vlad from Robinhood and

• 58:23Mark Cuban?

  Yep, that's my guy.

• 58:24Jordi Hays?

  He is, he's super excited about getting, uh, everyday investors access to great private markets. Uh, for great companies in the private markets. Wanted to get your general read on that. You've obviously been part of Shark Tank for a long time.

• 58:39John Coogan?

  Can you imagine if you were watching and you could be like, I want to invest? That seems extremely

• 58:42Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and a lot of people have taken crack

• 58:44John Coogan?

  I'm sure people have pitched you this exact thing.

• 58:46Jordi Hays?

  Uh, but I'm curious, I, because, because you obviously, you, you, uh, I can, I can see you being, yeah, it's great when company, when, if retail can get into the next Figma, but there's, you know, not, not making a lot of Figma's.

• 59:00Mark Cuban?

  I've, I've been anti, um, not sweat equity, um, crowdfunding, right? Crowd equity programs against it because there's no liquidity. People love a company, the next Figma, and they put in their life savings because they know Figma is going to the moon, baby. And they can't, they can't get out.

• 59:17John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 59:18Mark Cuban?

  And they gotta wait. That's the problem.

• 59:21John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 59:21Mark Cuban?

  And so that's part one to the problem. Part two and more of a system, systemic problem, there's just not enough IPOs. I mean, it's like watching some of these IPOs, they're like meme coins now. Bam, they take off and then it's musical chairs to see who can get out the last but first, right? And if you don't get out first or at near the beginning, you're getting crushed, you know? And so. Is there a way, whether it's tokenization or other approaches to that? Probably, but it's going to have to go back to the future where somebody is going to have to take some risk and be a market maker.

• 1:00:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:00Mark Cuban?

  If Vladimir, whoever is a market maker.

• 1:00:03John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:03Mark Cuban?

  So that there's always some liquidity within X percentage of the last trade. Great. Then everybody can do it and everybody's protected to a certain extent. As long as they're not doing deals where the people are just out now lying, right? Or misrepresenting it. At which point, hopefully the CFTC or the, um, SEC, whoever happens to end up in charge.

• 1:00:24John Coogan?

  Enough just to bring access. You also have to bring liquidity. Uh, last question, if Donald Trump runs for a third term, will you run for president?

• 1:00:33Mark Cuban?

  I mean, it's easy to say yes right now, but it's, that's the only, probably the only thing that could make me really reconsider. Cause otherwise I'm not, I don't want to do that shit.

• 1:00:44Mark Cuban?

  Not my dream to be president. I'd rather argue with you guys about this.

• 1:00:47John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. It's my dream to come back on the show. You'll be too busy if you're in the.

• 1:00:50Jordi Hays?

  Last, last question from me. Are you excited about the, the, the, the American taxpayer, uh, potentially taking a position in Intel?

• 1:00:58John Coogan?

  Oh, interesting.

• 1:00:59Mark Cuban?

  You know what? It's a great question, Jordy. So.

• 1:01:03Jordi Hays?

  You're sounding, you're sounding like an AI. You're sounding like an AI.

• 1:01:07Mark Cuban?

  You know what? What you don't know is I have chat GPT listening.

• 1:01:12John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's running clearly. He's running clearly.

• 1:01:16Mark Cuban?

  It is a progressive's dream. This is the Bernie Sanders dream, the AOC dream. Because, and I'm not saying I agree with it, but if you think about it.

• 1:01:27Mark Cuban?

  It's asking for equity and taking value from the billionaires before it even makes them billionaires or goes to the billionaires. So when you take 10% of Intel, and first let me add the fact that it's a grant that they're converting. I think is awful because it was meant to be a grant and that was the deal the United States of America made. And now we're going back on the paper that we signed as a country. I think that's bad, but generally if this was, okay, we'll put in more money in order to take, and we want 10% of Intel. Obviously, they can say yes or no, just like Nvidia and AMD had the option to say yes or no on the H20 chips, just like material, whatever MP had the option.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  Politicians have gotten so good at trading stocks. Maybe we want them running our federal balance sheet.

• 1:02:19Mark Cuban?

  No, you don't.

• 1:02:20Speaker 04

  No, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

• 1:02:21Mark Cuban?

  Yeah, but if you're going to generate, if I was running, right? And I would say Donald Trump did the same thing. He got this one right. Now, the only question is, will he do it at the right time? Because would I rather take more money from taxpayers, the average person who might need to pay more, or even the billionaires, the oligarchs, according to Bernie? Would I jack up their tax rates to 30, from 37 to 39 or 41? Or can I just take it this way? Right? Take it before it even gets to them. It's a progressive's dream. I don't understand why AOC and Bernie aren't shouting to the rooftops and Elizabeth Warren, yes, yes, yes, and make, you know, make Donald Trump's head spin around in circles along

• 1:03:04Mark Cuban?

  with every other supporter, because those guys are...

• 1:03:07Speaker 04

  Well, if they got excited about it, he might reverse course.

• 1:03:10Mark Cuban?

  Well, of course.

• 1:03:11John Coogan?

  That's why they're being quiet, because they don't want him to reverse course. This is 40 chess.

• 1:03:15Mark Cuban?

  Maybe that, maybe you're...

• 1:03:16John Coogan?

  40 chess on both sides of the aisle. Everyone's playing chess.

• 1:03:19Mark Cuban?

  Yeah, I mean, but don't you guys agree? Isn't it just like a progressive's dream? Like, and, you know, so tariffs, which is just like the greatest sales pitch in the history of sales pitches, when you can convince 30-plus percent of people in this country that that tax that they're paying with increased prices isn't a tax, somebody else is paying it. Amazing sales job, right? So now that's $360 billion towards the deficit and everything. And if you can start doing these other deals that aren't piggish, right? Meaning they're fair to the companies that are involved, and they're not across the board like tariffs, and start banging down on the deficit in the way that is the ultimate progressive approach.

• 1:04:02Mark Cuban?

  He's turned into Bernie Sanders.

• 1:04:04John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:04:05Mark Cuban?

  He literally has, you know, only he's a better salesperson.

• 1:04:09John Coogan?

  Uh, you're great at this.

• 1:04:10Mark Cuban?

  Yeah, I give him credit though. I'm not knocking him, right? I am giving Donald Trump all his flowers because he is, he is doing things in a way that the Democrats aren't smart enough to figure out to have done themselves.

• 1:04:25John Coogan?

  Yep. This is great. Uh, thank you so much for stopping by.

• 1:04:29Jordi Hays?

  We'll have to do this again soon.

• 1:04:30John Coogan?

  Yeah, we gotta do this again soon. We gotta find a new, uh, new topic to argue about, but this is fantastic.

• 1:04:34Mark Cuban?

  Let's go healthcare. I got, wait till you hear my shit with healthcare.

• 1:04:37John Coogan?

  Okay. Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it tomorrow. Healthcare debate soon. Well, we'll email you. I'll, I'll see you soon.

• 1:04:42Mark Cuban?

  Got it, guys.

• 1:04:42John Coogan?

  Thank you so much for joining.

• 1:04:43Mark Cuban?

  Appreciate it. Take care.

• 1:04:45John Coogan?

  Kanye West's former mansion has relisted amid dispute. Five months ago, things were looking up for the Malibu California mansion abandoned by Kanye West. You know this story, right?

• 1:04:57Jordi Hays?

  This is such a crazy property.

• 1:04:59John Coogan?

  So Kanye West bought a, uh, so he bought a, a mansion on the beach in Malibu and had someone like completely tear it down and it looked like it was going to maybe be a, a renovation, but then it just turned into a disaster zone, basically. So developer Andrew Mazzella was in contract to pay $30 million for the concrete structure designed by Star Architect, Star Architect, they call them Star Architects. Uh, Tao Tao Ando West, uh, West, who now goes by Yi, uh, had purchased the house in 2021 for about 57.3 million and gutted it. And Mazzella planned to restore the house to its original glory. Instead, Mazzella's deal is off.

• 1:05:42John Coogan?

  Seller Bellwood Investments, which brought, which bought the hulking property for 21 million in 2024, is claiming Mazzella was massively underqualified and unable to get funding for the transaction. For his part, Mazzella has said a peek under the hood revealed the project would require hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of dollars more than anticipated. I'm not a congressman of misleading me.

• 1:06:04Jordi Hays?

  How, uh, the idea that a, you know, a 20 ish million dollar property would go over budget by hundreds of thousands of dollars.

• 1:06:12John Coogan?

  I know exactly. Yeah.

• 1:06:13Jordi Hays?

  Deals extremely like, uh, basically exactly what you should plan for.

• 1:06:17John Coogan?

  Look at these pictures. Like.

• 1:06:19Jordi Hays?

  I, I honestly think that somebody would buy this in its current state. And just like, keep it, like it's almost like a monument to, uh, Going insane.

• 1:06:31John Coogan?

  Yeah, I was just gonna say, it's like, it is, and I never understood the rationale. Was it, was it purely-

• 1:06:37Jordi Hays?

  It feels like, having this like incredibly, this incredible,

• 1:06:42John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:43Jordi Hays?

  You know, brutalist but beautiful home, and then just destroying.

• 1:06:48John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:06:48Jordi Hays?

  It now feels like it's, it's like buying, you know, going to Sotheby's and buying a piece of, of art. It's like performance art.

• 1:06:55John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah. Was it performance art, or was it more just like Kanye actually wanted to renovate it and the renovation just went off the rails? Because, I mean, people tear houses down to the studs all the time, get hung up in permitting, and then they just have like a cement slab outside their house for 10 months.

• 1:07:15Jordi Hays?

  For 10 years.

• 1:07:16John Coogan?

  Speaking from experience here. Like, it is hard to do renovations.

• 1:07:22John Coogan?

  In mid-August, the house went back on the market for 34.9 million, down from 39 million. Designed more than a decade ago for financier Richard Sacks. The house is roughly 4,000 square feet with four bedrooms. West listed it in 2023 amid a firestorm over his anti-Semitic comments and erratic behavior. Bellwood bought the property in 2024 and embarked on a roughly 8.5 million dollar restoration project. With fractional ownership model, it raised millions of dollars from investors for the Ando project. Then in March, Bellwood signed a contract to sell to Mazella, a commercial fisherman turned developer, who until recently was based in Montana. The Malibu project was, was to be among his company's priciest residential deals to date,

• 1:08:07John Coogan?

  but closing was delayed. Mazella couldn't secure funding. Last month, they made a revised offer of 19.5. Of course, this, this is post fires, so there were a lot of fires in Malibu. There were-

• 1:08:19Jordi Hays?

  So basically-

• 1:08:20John Coogan?

  The H was locked down. It was a bad time.

• 1:08:21Jordi Hays?

  And Mazella, Mazella had a contract to buy the home for a certain price.

• 1:08:26John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:08:26Jordi Hays?

  Decided at a, at a, at a later date that he wanted to pay less.

• 1:08:31John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:08:31Jordi Hays?

  And Belmont is pissed because, and he has a quote here, "Mazella turned out to be nothing more than a quote-unquote cowboy from Montana, who was quote-unquote trying to do something in Malibu. Shame on me for not doing diligence."

• 1:08:47John Coogan?

  Huh.

• 1:08:48Speaker 04

  Happens.

• 1:08:49John Coogan?

  Gabe from Mischief, how you doing Gabe?

• 1:08:52Speaker 04

  There he is.

• 1:08:52John Coogan?

  Welcome to the stream.

• 1:08:54Speaker 04

  What's going on?

• 1:08:55John Coogan?

  At the TBN Ultra Dome, what's new with you? How you doing? I think everyone knows you. Maybe just launch into the announcement this week about the private military corporation that you're starting.

• 1:09:10Gabe Whaley?

  Oh, you saw the Twitter. I didn't think anybody looked at that. Interesting.

• 1:09:14John Coogan?

  Oh, everyone saw that.

• 1:09:15Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's, uh, sure, sure. What do we do this week? Well,

• 1:09:21Gabe Whaley?

  we launched an agency called Applied Mischief.

• 1:09:23John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:09:25Gabe Whaley?

  The agency, honestly, like to rewind, where does that even come from? And a lot of people don't actually understand this about mischief because probably what you see is like videos of people wearing boots or like press headlines or whatever. But the way we're actually organized is we are essentially a holding company of different creative enterprises based on categories. So there's like a handbag division, there's a footwear division, there's a fine art division. There are other divisions I can't really talk about yet, but with like more bigger permanent structures.

• 1:10:01Speaker 04

  Well, you talked about a division you can't talk about, so I hit the...

• 1:10:05Gabe Whaley?

  Oh, nice, nice.

• 1:10:08Gabe Whaley?

  So we've been operating like that for a second now, and to make that efficient, there's been an internal back office that's like

• 1:10:15John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:16Gabe Whaley?

  normal, right? Like finance, legal, manufacturing, customer support, but also like design and marketing.

• 1:10:22John Coogan?

  Yep.

• 1:10:22Gabe Whaley?

  And that's a group that not only does design, but also applies that sort of like mischief magic, like viral juice or whatever.

• 1:10:30John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:31Gabe Whaley?

  So the thinking here was we might as well open up that to external clients. It can become a profit center, which is great. But the other part is like, maybe it can make our world a little bit bigger too, because we're hungry for more formats. We've made so much stuff over the last like six years. What have we not touched yet? And like, maybe we won't get sued this time around. Like maybe there's just stuff that we can do that's like, cool, we can, uh...

• 1:10:56Jordi Hays?

  Well, it's it's it's there. What what seems obviously exciting to me is partnering with with global companies. I mean, sure, I'm sure you'll partner with with startups and and scale ups and things like that. But what what gets exciting at a certain point has to be scale.

• 1:11:11John Coogan?

  There's so much.

• 1:11:12Jordi Hays?

  Hey, instead of selling like a thousand of this thing, can we figure out?

• 1:11:16John Coogan?

  It's like Spike Jones doesn't Apple ad. It's like, that's just not, there's just special, there's something special about that. About just like giving it. It's almost like patronage in some ways. It's marketing, but it's just like, it's still art and it's cool and it's like un unbridled.

• 1:11:30Gabe Whaley?

  No, totally, totally, right? Like, the way that we look at these is like, it's not a service that we're providing necessarily. Like, there are brands and entities and culture that we perceive as cultural material. The same way artists looks at their material as like paint or sculpture or marble or whatever. Like, for us, Coca-Cola is material. Give us that, and we'll make something new with it. Instead of fabricating a marketing story to sell more units that people do now anyways, right? The opportunity, it's like, there's just so much cultural material being left on the table to make new things with.

• 1:12:05John Coogan?

  So talk to me about inbound versus outbound. I feel like in that vein of like, there's cultural material. If you come up with just like, I have a great idea, it would only work for this particular brand, because the nature of the idea is tied deeply to the lore of that brand. They're never going to think about this. But I need to, I could, the only value I could get out of this is selling it to them. Are you going outbound and pitching big companies and saying, I have a, I have the idea for you? Or is it more like, there is an actual process where you can sit down and do ideas?

• 1:12:40Gabe Whaley?

  I'm going outbound outbound right now. This is a message for Gabe Newell from Valve. We want to design your submarine.

• 1:12:48John Coogan?

  Yeah, so let's go. I love that. That would be an amazing project.

• 1:12:51Gabe Whaley?

  That's that's the outbound. That's what I want to do. Or extraterrestrial space research organizations. We want to design that you're putting into space.

• 1:13:00John Coogan?

  I love it.

• 1:13:01Gabe Whaley?

  We were, look, we were Fast Company's number one design in the world in 2023. People don't think about that because they think about viral, but if you actually get like what we do, it is unparalleled. So let us, uh, let's like put some stuff.

• 1:13:14Jordi Hays?

  We got a, we got a space play for you with, with a company that we're very close with. I won't say anymore.

• 1:13:19John Coogan?

  Okay. Yeah. Well, we'll talk after the stream.

• 1:13:22Jordi Hays?

  I, I have a bunch of, uh, I have a bunch of questions. One, quickly on the business model of the new agency. Is there a world where you would, where you would, uh, you know, the standard agency model will be like, hey, let's do this project and we'll charge you like a million bucks or a couple million bucks. But there's some scenarios where you could actually, I imagine if it was a one-off, more like drop style, you could take a percentage of, of the sales even. Is that something you would ever explore to get to really bet on yourselves and say like, hey, we think we could sell like a $10 million of this and we'll only price based on, on success. Is that, is that something you would consider doing?

• 1:13:59Gabe Whaley?

  It's totally on the table and it's, it's not, that's not even uncommon from like the collaboration route. Like some of the collaborations that we've done in the past have been that kind of model where it's like, you make a bunch of product together. We both invest on our own ends and then you split the cut afterwards. I think what's more interesting though is because of mischief's position as like this artistic entity, like in a way like we have a personality, we have an audience. And so we're actually like building a pipeline of joint ventures.

• 1:14:30Jordi Hays?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:30Gabe Whaley?

  With big.

• 1:14:31Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, that's what I was getting at.

• 1:14:33Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah. It's not even about 10,000 units. We're talking about millions of units.

• 1:14:37John Coogan?

  Yeah. Over forever, basically.

• 1:14:38Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:14:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah. Like I want, I want the, I want a mischief themed line of, of kids toys, right? Like I would happily buy those. I, I would buy a bunch of those, right? And so that's like, if you partner with the right company, that should be in the, the, you know, my personal lifetime value would be in the hundreds of dollars and I would even pay a premium.

• 1:14:58John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:58Jordi Hays?

  Because I know it's you guys behind it.

• 1:15:00John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:15:01Jordi Hays?

  Um, another question I have. Uh, you know, I've, I've leveraged the, the drops kind of model to do marketing. I was inspired by you guys, uh, uh, to do marketing for my last company party round. And something that I've noticed recently, a lot of companies in tech say they want to do drops and it's because they're inspired by mischief and they just see like drops get attention. I want attention.

• 1:15:24John Coogan?

  One drop please, sir.

• 1:15:26Jordi Hays?

  One drop please.

• 1:15:26John Coogan?

  One drop please.

• 1:15:28Jordi Hays?

  The usual, sir.

• 1:15:29John Coogan?

  Sign me up.

• 1:15:30Jordi Hays?

  No, but the, but the thing I usually push back on and the thing I'm curious to get your opinion on is like, I think when companies think they want to do drops, what they really want to do is true advertising and they don't even know the difference. And so like where, where's that line for you and how often are you, you know, would you talk to a company and it's like, what you really want is to do advertising.

• 1:15:50John Coogan?

  Yeah. Just like a consistent message delivered via every channel forever might be the right thing.

• 1:15:56Jordi Hays?

  Not even forever or like for a few months, for a quarter. Yeah.

• 1:15:59Gabe Whaley?

  I would, I would take it even further and it's, it's like, that is the final goal, which is like, get a message out into the people, get them talking, whatever. But like, the, the focus on the drop is, is misplaced. Drop is just a delivery mechanism for something new. What these guys are actually looking for, like what they actually want at the end of the day is how do you break through the noise? And right now you can either just make more content, which honestly, the ROI I think is going down on that. There's too much content and not enough demand. Sorry. That's just how it is. But the opportunity is you can make new things that fit within your brand parameters that use your brand as cultural material

• 1:16:44Gabe Whaley?

  that are actually interesting, that are tactile, that have a story to them. And if they happen to be ephemeral, then it's a drop, but don't get hung up on the drop. Just make something interesting. That's.

• 1:16:55Jordi Hays?

  Are, are ideas valuable and, and, and, and if you had to, you know, what?

• 1:17:02Jordi Hays?

  Kind of think about like a making something new, how much is it is it the idea versus the execution?

• 1:17:08John Coogan?

  Also, yeah, do you hire, do you hire idea guys and then like operational excellent people and they're like a dividing line?

• 1:17:16Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, and to me, I, John and I will sit down with companies that we're friends with and will generate like 20 ideas. It ends up being super frustrating because you're like, we're get, we're feeding you this like incredible idea. It doesn't even cost a lot to do. And if you do it right, like it could be like a million dollars of like, you know, uh, brand value, however you want to measure that. But it, it feels like you can give people these, these things that in your hands, they might be million dollar ideas, but, but

• 1:17:47John Coogan?

  Poorly executed.

• 1:17:47Jordi Hays?

  Poorly executed, they're a negative value.

• 1:17:50Gabe Whaley?

  Totally. I think it's like, uh, like squeezing a balloon on two ends. Like there's the conceptual power and then there's the execution. There are things where like the concept is really high and the execution doesn't have to be crazy. You don't need a huge budget. It's just a good idea and it's gonna work. What you typically see a lot of brands do is they're afraid of good ideas because good ideas have not been done by definition. So they lean more on the execution and you see like large budgets and like huge bloated teams and production. So it's sort of like, now if you can dial in both, that's the magic, right? That's, but that's really hard to do because more money, more risk, you want to, it's you just, you don't, you want to de-risk on the concept side.

• 1:18:33Gabe Whaley?

  John, to your question, uh, I don't have idea people. Everyone here is an idea person. We did, I'll give you an example. A couple of years ago, we made handbags, right? They're very expensive. The smaller they get, the more expensive they become. So we made a microscopic handbag that sold at auction for $63,000 at Paris Fashion Week at Pharrell's, whatever coronation of Louis Vuitton. That idea came from a summer intern. Anyone here can have an idea, right? The lawyer or general counsel joins, brainstorms. Our ops lead wins, brainstorms because being creative doesn't mean you have good ideas. Being creative just means you're human. You have insights and you have reactions to things that are going around you. That's it. And then also like,

• 1:19:16Gabe Whaley?

  being creative means you're not afraid to like look stupid. And I think that's like a big defining trait here because anybody can look stupid here, including myself.

• 1:19:27Jordi Hays?

  What have you ever seen highly complex ideas work well as marketing, advertising stunts? This is something that we end up talking about.

• 1:19:39John Coogan?

  I think David Ogilvie said like, "Simple ideas are powerful ideas." That's certainly something I've seen in mischief's work throughout your entire career. But is there some sort of contrarian or nuance to that concept?

• 1:19:52Gabe Whaley?

  I think there could be. The line that we use here is, "A good idea should slap in one sentence and then slap even harder in three." And that just means there are layers, right? Like, you appreciate it for the headline, but if you like really dig into it, you're like, "Wait up, is this thing making fun of me? And do I still like it? And am I gonna like it? And if I buy it, am I a chump or am I a patron of the arts, right? It's like, the layers are good, the ambiguity is good. But at the end of the day, like, from a marketing perspective, just being practical right now, like, people's attention spans are so low. And honestly, like, people are just, we're all like very distracted.

• 1:20:36Gabe Whaley?

  So you don't have a lot of window to like nail it. So you do gotta have that one liner, like, pretty dialed in.

• 1:20:44Jordi Hays?

  How dialed in is your crystal ball when it comes to releasing new things on the internet? Like, do you feel like you usually have like a pretty accurate sense of how much attention something will get?

• 1:20:57John Coogan?

  Do you get surprised?

• 1:20:57Jordi Hays?

  Or do you still get surprised often?

• 1:21:01Gabe Whaley?

  Totally still get surprised. Like, you always get surprised. I think it's easy for us to fall in a comfort zone where we're like, "Oh yeah, like this will work." Because what that ends up doing is you start coming up with ideas based on a framework of what has worked. We actually put in a lot of effort to come up with formats and mechanisms that don't really fit into our existing framework, that we're like, "Oh, I don't know if this is gonna work. And is this offensive? I don't know. Are people gonna buy slices of this giant foam baby that we're cutting up in Brooklyn? I don't know." They did.

• 1:21:39John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:40Gabe Whaley?

  No, you know, like.

• 1:21:41John Coogan?

  Is there a project that you think is like criminally underrated? People are obviously familiar with the boots. They're familiar with the, uh, the, the, the shoes and the footwear stuff and some of the other projects. But what, what, what's your, what's your example of a project? You're like, ah, that's still like one of my favorites.

• 1:21:58Gabe Whaley?

  Good question. And the reason it didn't really get seen as much is because, to be honest, we were a little bit scared.

• 1:22:06John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:22:07Gabe Whaley?

  And so, you know, buried it in an art show that we did. But, uh, are you guys familiar with the paradox of the ship of Theseus?

• 1:22:14John Coogan?

  Yes, but explain it for the listener.

• 1:22:16Gabe Whaley?

  Totally. So it's like, uh, it's this old paradox where imagine you have this like large wooden ship. And every day over seven years, you're coming up with a new piece of wood identical to a piece of wood on the ship. And you are swapping it out. The question is, after seven years, is it the same ship or is it a different ship? We found that, uh, a very interesting question. And so we decided to, uh, apply that in our own way to a sink located in the American wing of the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

• 1:22:49Speaker 04

  As one does.

• 1:22:50John Coogan?

  How did you?

• 1:22:51Gabe Whaley?

  As one does.

• 1:22:52John Coogan?

  Yeah, explain.

• 1:22:52Gabe Whaley?

  And so we, we found the sink. We did recon. We, uh, not me, I'm not, I, it wasn't me personally, it was somebody here. Names, but we found, you know, we, we tracked down the serial numbers, the parts, uh, ordered exact like replica, we, we ordered the exact same parts, built it here, tied off the dimensions of the bathroom here so that we could practice swapping things out. And then over many months, we would walk into the Met and do a quick swap and leave. And then the next day, do it again and do it again, bolt by bolt, screw by screw.

• 1:23:30Speaker 04

  Just an art enthusiast. I just, I just like art and I, I go to the bathroom.

• 1:23:34John Coogan?

  What is the piece that's going to be big? How, how'd you get a big piece there? Isn't there like one piece?

• 1:23:39Gabe Whaley?

  That, that, so that we decided to leave.

• 1:23:41John Coogan?

  Okay.

• 1:23:42Gabe Whaley?

  That we did not swap out, although we had, uh.

• 1:23:45John Coogan?

  A plan.

• 1:23:46Gabe Whaley?

  We fabricated a wheelchair that could have hit it in the sink. I'm telling you, we got a little bit, we were honestly scared.

• 1:23:55Jordi Hays?

  You got a little carried away.

• 1:23:57Gabe Whaley?

  We still did it. We got everything else. And so, yeah, they have our sink and we have their sink. And ours is now part of our art gallery.

• 1:24:07John Coogan?

  That's amazing.

• 1:24:08Gabe Whaley?

  Although I believe they figured it out and they've replaced it. Because as soon as we announced the art show, even though the sink was sort of like hidden in all the other pieces, people definitely found out and there was a line in the Met for that bathroom.

• 1:24:26Jordi Hays?

  They should have sectioned it off, turned it into an installation.

• 1:24:30Gabe Whaley?

  So if any of your viewers are on the board of the Met, the coolest thing you could do right now is acquire that sink from us and put it back.

• 1:24:40Jordi Hays?

  Let's make it happen.

• 1:24:41John Coogan?

  Let's make it happen, Army.

• 1:24:42Jordi Hays?

  How many millions of dollars do you think you've left on the table by not doing crypto projects?

• 1:24:53Gabe Whaley?

  The painful question.

• 1:24:55Jordi Hays?

  Is it like, it has to be like a hundred million?

• 1:24:58Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, probably. Honestly, probably. Probably.

• 1:25:02Jordi Hays?

  And is there, um, uh, like, I'm sure at some point there will actually be a way to do this. Like, there has to be something that makes sense. Like, we did something back in the day with Party Round where we did, it was called Helpful VCs, where we made CryptoPunks for every VC and then we put them on a website. And we said, "You have four hours to retweet these. Otherwise, we're going to auction them off." And it was like, for like, charity, right? We weren't like, trying to make money. And that was like, one of the ways that we broke through. And like, shortly after, um...

• 1:25:33John Coogan?

  I think there might be something to do with crypto and like, stable coins where there's not as much gambling involved, but there might be something with crypto. I don't know.

• 1:25:39Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, yeah. You have to remove, you have to make it not like a speculation.

• 1:25:44John Coogan?

  Yeah, because as soon as you leave the, like, the people who get the joke are, and then the people who don't get the joke show up, and then they're losing their life savings. That doesn't feel good. Whereas, like, if somebody, you know, is bidding on that handbag, like, they probably know what they're doing. They understand that it's hard.

• 1:26:02Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, exactly. Look, I think that crypto route for us is, um... We've often plotted our own death and I think there's like a chaotic evil way to go out. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I shouldn't even be saying that because now everybody's gonna know. Yeah, everybody's gonna know.

• 1:26:20Jordi Hays?

  Well, I think, um, switching gears to, to another, uh, topic that I'm, I'm sure you guys, uh, so one, I don't think AI is going to take your guys' jobs anytime soon. Uh, despite it being able to maybe piece together, you know, random ideas, uh, so much about, uh, taste and things like that. But, uh, how excited are you to leverage that technology for, for some of, um, for some of these various plays?

• 1:26:50Gabe Whaley?

  Honestly TBD and I think, I think it's, I do, I will say like, unlike the whole like crypto craziness of the last couple of years. Um, we, we didn't get into that because we didn't feel like it was here to stay yet. That, that's like the truth, like when you see the herd run so fast, it usually means they're running towards the end of a cliff. There's a little bit of a similar sentiment right now. That said, I, it is rooted in something real. Um, but we're not in a rush to like, use it necessarily, right? If it's going to be here forever, we've got time. Like it's mischief doesn't win as a first mover. If you look at all of our work, it was never about being the first to react to something or the first to like make use of a format.

• 1:27:36Gabe Whaley?

  Um, so we'll see, we just have to see.

• 1:27:39Jordi Hays?

  How do you think about, uh, are there any projects like time is an interesting variable that you can play with, right? Like part of the thing with the, the, the sync stunt that you guys did is, is just the narrative and the story of like, you guys were conducting this in secret for a long time. It was like a very, and, and that's part of what makes it so entertaining is kind of like the, the lore of what went into it. But it, but have you thought about even longer term plays, like things that you could do over a decade or, or 50 years that in hindsight would just be absolutely hilarious? And, uh, but, but again, take this sort of incredible planning.

• 1:28:18Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, yeah. Honestly, we are at that stage of just like our lives and as a company now to be thinking like that, right? Cause like, if you think about it, we. We're in

• 1:28:29Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, if you Yeah, if you if you would, you know, I know you guys have have a few investors. If you told your investors, first thing we're working on is a 50 year stunt. Like, all right, buddy, like, why don't you put some points on the board first?

• 1:28:44Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:28:45Jordi Hays?

  But you guys, I feel like I've earned it now, like I, you know, something like a decade.

• 1:28:50Gabe Whaley?

  No, yeah, because like we've we spent basically like we've only been around for the pandemic and post like a little bit post pandemic, right? And all of that was just like, you don't know what's coming, like live day by day, like just survive, like banks are shutting down. Okay, get through to tomorrow, right? Now we've been around for a second. We're more well known. We have our existing infrastructure. And now we really are asking the questions of like, okay, what does that legacy look like in 10 years? Or should we should we disappear for 20 years and then come back? That would that would actually be the coolest thing we could do is go dark for two decades and then come back. Banger.

• 1:29:31Jordi Hays?

  It's work for it's work for other. It's work for other artists.

• 1:29:34Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:29:35Jordi Hays?

  I I could you do something? So so we both loved Nathan Fielder's latest sort of like aviation stunt television show.

• 1:29:44Gabe Whaley?

  I've heard a lot about it. I haven't watched it.

• 1:29:47Jordi Hays?

  I mean, you should. It's one of the few people in the world that I think is executing on your guys' level in the sense of.

• 1:29:54Gabe Whaley?

  He's next level.

• 1:29:56Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, like one sentence, you know, pitch that's hilarious, but then the more you get into it, like the funnier it is. But could you do something like that for like the cost of housing? Sort of a decade long stunt, like mischief, like mischief figures out a way to like reduce, you know, the cost of housing in the United States.

• 1:30:15Gabe Whaley?

  I mean, that was crazy. Like we, if there are any like pricey neighborhoods that would love to commission us as an artist to install a sculpture. We have a really good trailer park trailer

• 1:30:32Gabe Whaley?

  that we would love to erect in a public square.

• 1:30:36Jordi Hays?

  I can just see like the right RV like there's this RV outside of our gym.

• 1:30:42John Coogan?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yellow from the sun.

• 1:30:45Jordi Hays?

  Like the windows open.

• 1:30:47John Coogan?

  Aluminum on the outside. Yeah, Winnebago. It can be a stunt for Winnebago Corporation.

• 1:30:52Jordi Hays?

  What do you, um, how do you feel about the state of, uh, social media like broadly? It feels like we've gotten to a point where in many ways the platforms look so similar, but they also have their own character. Some of them are becoming Lindy, even thinking about how durable like Twitter and X have been despite all this change. But what's your, and, and do you even, do you, do you feel like you need to use social media or are you better off not using it and then just releasing, you know, stuff on the platforms?

• 1:31:27Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, yeah, it's, um, definitely a love hate relationship with the, with the platforms, right? Cause like platforms, if you, if you really think about it, they started as a way to share things that you found were interesting. And now they are mostly ways to share, uh, photos and videos of you talking about things that you find interesting. It's kind of become like less novelty based and more vanity based. Just fine. That's like a fundamental human instinct. So I get it. Um, I would continue to love to find a way to not use the platforms to disseminate information. And that's kind of how we started.

• 1:32:09Gabe Whaley?

  Our first audience portal was Venmo. Um, we had a huge audience on Venmo and we like had this huge phone bank, uh, like a Chinese phone click farm. And we, every time we had a new project, we would Venmo our audience a penny and they would get that notification because that's the most powerful notification layer in your phone.

• 1:32:30Jordi Hays?

  The cha-ching, the cha-ching.

• 1:32:32Gabe Whaley?

  Right? I am now banned from Venmo for life.

• 1:32:38John Coogan?

  Well PayPal.

• 1:32:39Gabe Whaley?

  They want to work with a client, let me know.

• 1:32:42John Coogan?

  PayPal, we'll have the CEO of PayPal on.

• 1:32:45Jordi Hays?

  I think the last company that came on works with Venmo will work on it.

• 1:32:49John Coogan?

  We should get this reversed. This is important. We were reading an article in The New Yorker yesterday about this concept of IRL brain rot. The examples were the viral.

• 1:33:02Jordi Hays?

  La Booboo's.

• 1:33:03John Coogan?

  La Booboo's, Dubai chocolate, the viral Italian sandwich. We saw a few of these. Joe Weisenthal at Bloomberg was also writing about these kind of like viral as being something that you stamp on your product as a product feature, almost. And I was wondering if you're worried about the spillover from internet slop culture into the real world, just kind of how you're tussling with this idea of brain rot coming into the real world. I don't even know if you read the article or you have thoughts there.

• 1:33:36Gabe Whaley?

  I think I saw it on Instagram, yeah.

• 1:33:38John Coogan?

  Yeah. Of course, yeah. Yeah, you probably did a front-facing video talking about it. Or you saw someone do a front-facing video talking about it.

• 1:33:45Gabe Whaley?

  Reaction video.

• 1:33:47John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:48Gabe Whaley?

  I mean, look, it would... I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing, but like, what mischief has put out historically is kind of in that brain rot category.

• 1:34:01Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, I mean, the boots, the boots, right?

• 1:34:04Gabe Whaley?

  It's like absurd aesthetic and maybe, maybe even I could be so conceited as to say we were part of creating that.

• 1:34:12Jordi Hays?

  The meta. No, you guys definitely, that it was an era of minimalism and it was like the Everlane era.

• 1:34:20John Coogan?

  Quite lucky.

• 1:34:21Jordi Hays?

  The boots are like, you know, an incredible reaction to that of being like.

• 1:34:24Gabe Whaley?

  Absurd aesthetic, just like popping imagery off of your screen.

• 1:34:30Jordi Hays?

  But then the challenge with this trend, right, is if you go back to minimalism, it actually becomes, I mean, maybe, maybe as like for me, right, I became part of the mischief audience and mischief customer in my early twenties. I'm in my late twenties now. Eventually, maybe I'd want some ultra minimalist.

• 1:34:54Jordi Hays?

  You know mischief item for my home, but, but, but, but at the same time, like, once you get on the, on the, on the maximalist track, like, you're kind of on this maximalism treadmill where you just gotta keep, like, going crazier and crazier and, and, you know, maybe, maybe in the internet era, there's no turning back.

• 1:35:12Gabe Whaley?

  It, it's totally possible, right? Like, we might, we might have built a machine so effective that it's now our master. And, like, how do you break free from that, right? But, um, I'm not too worried, like, we don't, we actually don't think so hard about it. We just kind of make the things that we like and then, uh, if it ever stops working, then.

• 1:35:31John Coogan?

  Do something else.

• 1:35:32Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:33John Coogan?

  Figure it out.

• 1:35:33Gabe Whaley?

  Exactly.

• 1:35:33Jordi Hays?

  Well, I, I have an idea to put out in the ether. I think next time a, an A-list celebrity is going through a massive comms crisis, PR crisis, or a scandal, they should hire you guys to create something more, more viral than, than the scandal.

• 1:35:49Gabe Whaley?

  They just need to do another crisis to compete with that. All they gotta do is go to Twitter and be like, "Send a Bitcoin to this address and I'll send you to Bitcoin." And then they actually do it. They actually do it.

• 1:36:00Jordi Hays?

  Actually do it.

• 1:36:01John Coogan?

  Genius. Yeah, that is a, that is a one-time get out of jail free card. You heard it here first.

• 1:36:06Jordi Hays?

  Just payoffs.

• 1:36:06John Coogan?

  If you, yeah, if you're a celebrity and you're in trouble, you're, you're, you're caught at a Coldplay concert, that's the only way you can reverse the tide.

• 1:36:13Gabe Whaley?

  You will be good. Yeah.

• 1:36:14John Coogan?

  For sure.

• 1:36:15Gabe Whaley?

  Yeah, go for it.

• 1:36:16John Coogan?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:16Jordi Hays?

  Awesome.

• 1:36:17John Coogan?

  This is great. Yeah, thank you.

• 1:36:19Jordi Hays?

  It's really great, great to get the update and, uh, just hear your so much clarity on, on all these different areas that we talk about all the time.

• 1:36:28John Coogan?

  Yeah, we could talk for hours. Yeah, we'd love to have you back, uh, whenever, whenever it makes sense.

• 1:36:32Jordi Hays?

  Yeah, we gave, Gabe and I kicked around an idea that we won't share now. We'll, we'll, we'll leverage that for, for your next appearance. I can't, I can't wait for it.

• 1:36:42John Coogan?

  100%.

• 1:36:43Gabe Whaley?

  Let's do it.

• 1:36:44Jordi Hays?

  Awesome.

• 1:36:45John Coogan?

  Awesome. I'll talk to you.

• 1:36:46Jordi Hays?

  Great to catch up.

• 1:36:47Gabe Whaley?

  Well, see you.

• 1:36:47Jordi Hays?

  Cheers.