Advice Line: Scaling Strategies

This week, Guy is joined by Travis Boersma of Dutch Bros. Coffee, Michael Preysman of Everlane and Chris Ruder of Spikeball in a special “mashup” episode of Advice Line. First, Andy from Nashville is wondering if a brick and mortar burger joint will supercharge growth for his food truck business. Then, Tiffany from Cape Cod is looking to break into large retailers with her inspirational jewelry brand. And finally, Peter from South Dakota is evaluating whether to expand his ice skating apparel to overseas markets. Thank you to the founders of Bad Luck Burger Club, T. Jazelle and Rink Rabbit. If you’d like to be featured on a future Advice Line episode, leave us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and a specific question you’d like answered. Send a voice memo to [email protected] or call 1-800-433-1298. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson with music by Ramtin Arablouei. It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neal Rauch. You can follow HIBT on X & Instagram and sign up for Guy's free newsletter athttp://guyraz.com/guyraz.com http://guyraz.com or on Substack https://guyraz.substack.com/. To hear our guests previous episodes: Dutch Bros. Coffee: Travis Boersma https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/4e1063d2-d587-431f-846d-7a0f255c9f09/embed | Advice Line with Travis Boersma https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/bc312ec5-4061-4d29-bf38-41e05c58e839/embed Everlane: Michael Preysman https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/4b3139b4-7b60-4001-b04a-c12914cad827/embed | Advice Line with Michael Preysman https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/bd9cc99b-487b-42e2-8e1c-da746cc5c539/embed Spikeball: Chris Ruder https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/5647ea96-2d6d-4abd-b6f7-c05ed8b6ed0b/embed | Advice Line with Chris Ruder https://art19.com/shows/831bd173-0992-41b7-b1eb-112db904d947/episodes/dae0483c-2dba-4bd2-8fa8-648b15772635/embed See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Guy Raz?

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• 0:46Guy Raz?

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• 1:32Guy Raz?

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• 2:16Guy Raz?

  on gas and EV charging, office supply stores, cellphone service, and restaurants. You pick up an extra $750 cash back as a bonus. And you've got a low APR on purchases and balance transfers for 12 months while you're scaling. Same business, same expenses, two completely different outcomes based on one small decision. Visit usbank.com/business to learn more. The creditor and issuer of this card is US Bank National Association, pursuant to a license from Visa USA, Inc. Some restrictions apply. If you travel often, you'll want to hear about this unprecedented offer. For the first time ever,

• 3:00Guy Raz?

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• 4:27Guy Raz?

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• 5:11Guy Raz?

  Hello and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help to try and solve your business challenges and pain points. And each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will attempt with me to help you. And this week, we have a bit of a special episode. It's kind of a mashup, three callers and three different former guests, but all tackling some version of the same question, which is, what's the next move to scale my business? And by the way, if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call. You might just be the next guest on the show. Our number is 1-800-433-1298.

• 5:54Guy Raz?

  Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you would like some help with. You can also send us a voice memo at [email protected] and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. It is full of insights and ideas about running a business and hopefully even some inspiring messages. You can sign up for free at guyraz.com and we will put all of this info in the podcast description. All right, let's get to it. My first guest today is Travis Boersma. He's the co-founder of Dutch Bros Coffee. Travis was first on How I Built This back in 2023

• 6:33Guy Raz?

  to tell the story of taking Dutch Bros from a single push cart in a small town in Oregon, actually in a parking lot of a supermarket, to a national chain now valued at over $9 billion. It is such an amazing story and you can find it in the link here in the show notes. And as you'll hear, Travis was the perfect person to help our callers think about how to scale a business.

• 6:59Speaker 01

  Hi Guy, hi Travis. My name is Andy Atkins from Nashville, Tennessee, and I'm the co-owner and operator of the Bad Luck Burger Club. We're a fast casual smash burger concept operating out of two food trucks. And I'm stoked to be on the show. Thanks for having me on.

• 7:16Guy Raz?

  Awesome. Welcome to the show. All right. So you're doing Bad Luck Burger Club in Nashville, two trucks. So congrats. When did you start the business?

• 7:23Speaker 01

  We started in the pandemic. May of 2021 was our first go around and me and my partner, Cody, we started up. Yeah, it was a tent and a couple griddles, no business plan, just a couple dudes kind of like throwing parties in parking lots around town.

• 7:42Guy Raz?

  I love it.

• 7:43Speaker 01

  With really just trying to get through, you know, we were all wearing masks, sitting in our houses. You couldn't be out and about. And then like, once the CDC was like, oh, you can hang with like 10 or less people in parking lots and social distance. Like the whole vibe was just, yo, let's go through some parties. Let's have a good time. Let's sell a cheeseburger. Try to make the money back that we spent on food at Kroger or whatever. And it really was not a plan to start a business, but it was just a perfect storm of people needing a place to be and needing a community. And we happened to make a pretty good cheeseburger.

• 8:26Speaker 01

  And so there were just large lines coming, um, and we were selling out every time.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  And, uh, that eventually turned into a food truck that then eventually turned into a second food truck. And now it's our full-time thing.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  And were you guys, uh, coming from food, you and Cody?

• 8:44Speaker 01

  No, uh, no, not at all. Cody and I met, uh, back in the day when we used to both travel in bands. Uh, I played as a professional musician for about a decade, same for Cody. So we were just in bands touring around the world. We'd see each other at different festivals. Uh, just, you know, making friends and then, uh, he moved to Nashville. Where I lived and you know, you just start growing a friendship, seeing each other around town. Neither one of us have any hospitality or service industry.

• 9:15Speaker 02

  I love it.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Experience before this thing.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  Do you, did you, did you tour with any bands that we might know?

• 9:20Speaker 01

  Um, uh, yes and no. So I started my career out as an actual musician playing in a metal band. In the underground metal and punk rock hardcore scenes. I wouldn't think that you would know anything about, about that. That's a really specific niche.

• 9:35Speaker 02

  You might be surprised. Okay. Keep going.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  Possible, but, uh, then after that, uh, I went into a 10-year career of touring in the production side of touring. In arenas. So I've worked with like Panic at the Disco, Pentatonix and Zac Brown Band and a bunch of stuff like that, you know, and you're just setting up stages and arenas all over the country.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  Wow. All right. And.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, for sure, dude.

• 10:02Speaker 02

  Andy, what's your, what's your question for us?

• 10:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we've grown organically over the past three years. Uh, the tent and the griddles paid for the first food truck. The first food truck paid for the second food truck. We've been cash flow positive since day one. And we've just always operated that way. We're living in a world right now where our decision has to be going into brick and mortar and securing finance for that. Or do we keep trying to replicate the current model of food trucks in various locations? But Travis, as you would know, it takes a lot of operations to run a food truck at the, at the level of success that we're doing.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  So it's like, you know, the, the big goal is brick and mortar now. Talk to financial people about giving us some money. Or, you know, keep bootstrapping through mobile unit, mobile unit until it makes sense.

• 11:04Speaker 02

  So bootstrap, bootstrap, bootstrap, and then build through cash flow or raise money and go right into brick and mortar. Doesn't seem like those are the only two options here, but Travis, love, love to hear your thoughts on that.

• 11:18Speaker 03

  I mean, there's, there's something super fun and cool and sexy about a food truck. You know, there's, it's, it's trendy. You have some flexibility with where you go and what you do and, and your hours and where you're going to invest time and money. When you look at brick and mortar, are you completely aware of all the costs that you're going to incur that you don't today with overhead? And I mean, you know, like from rent to, you know, maintenance on the buildings, to investment in the kitchen with the equipment, the cleanliness that has to occur with bathrooms and people that may have, you know, kids that make a mess at everything in the kitchen.

• 12:01Speaker 03

  And, and now you got an order, there's a lot of dynamics that are much different than your food truck. So I, you know, I, if, if that's your overall objective and, and if, if it is. Then you got to figure out, well, if I'm going to incur costs, how am I going to offset that? I would think you got to do a lot more volume, you know, and volume is probably the name of the game for you guys. If you go into more, you know, brick and mortar sites with overhead.

• 12:29Speaker 01

  For sure. Um, yeah, I mean, we're pretty aware of, uh, it will be quite a bit more, uh, expensive to run, you know, monthly compared to what our overhead is now. Uh, we have a pretty decent amount of revenue. Our margins are pretty good. Um, and with, uh, being able to open up a brick and mortar and add alcohol to our program of having a bar, that's going to be able to open up a revenue stream that we don't even have access to being in a food truck, you know? Um, cause right now, like we have one standalone food truck that stays outside of a bar. That's seven days a week, open every single day. And you know, like we have a great relationship with them, love working with them, but also

• 13:14Speaker 01

  understand that like based off of the numbers that we look at between our two companies, we would have twice the revenue in a day, just out of how much alcohol is being served in their building that we don't have access to sell in a food truck.

• 13:28Speaker 02

  Right. So you're saying that part of the brick and mortar, the big part is that you have the access to sell alcohol.

• 13:33Speaker 01

  For sure. Yeah, absolutely.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Got it.

• 13:36Speaker 03

  And you know what? I think, I, I mean, honestly, that I, that's something that I think you got to consciously think about is how do you offset those costs? Volume, yes, but if you're able to bring in product line or a revenue stream that you don't capture today, and you've got a model of somebody who already does, it's pretty easy to look at that and try to figure out how you could replicate it or, or take it to another level.

• 13:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 14:00Speaker 02

  What's, what's the vision? Like you're looking five, 10 years down the road, Andy. I mean, do you want to be the, you know, the smash burger joint in Asheville or do you have, have visions of like beyond that area?

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Uh, I think we have a model that could be replicated in other locations, at least throughout the southeast. Yeah, I mean, I think we've already got a good, uh, footprint in Nashville. We are like, we're voted best burger in town, the best food truck in town. We got some pretty good eyes and, and, uh, you know, acclamations going on around town or whatever. I think being able to have a brick and mortar would for sure solidify us as a brand that's, you know, here to stay.

• 14:43Speaker 02

  How, how long do you think it would take you to save enough cash from the food trucks to finance it yourself, a brick and mortar shop?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Uh, gosh, I'd have to say probably another two years.

• 14:57Speaker 02

  I mean, it's something to consider, right? Cause the minute you bring in an outside investor, especially with, what, what, can you give us a kind of ballpark of what your revenue is, your annual revenue?

• 15:06Speaker 01

  For sure. We'll just, uh, get over 8,000 K this, uh, year, uh, by the end of the year.

• 15:12Speaker 02

  $8,000 total in sales?

• 15:14Speaker 01

  Eight hundred thousand, sorry.

• 15:15Speaker 02

  Eight hundred thousand.

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Eight hundred thousand. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 15:17Speaker 02

  It's pretty good, but you're going to bring in investor and they're going to say, look, you're going to need a million dollars to do this and I want 55% of your business. And so the question is, and maybe you can talk them down to 30 or 40, but you know, then at that point you've got an investor who has access to your books and, and, which is fine, but you know, they're, they're a shareholder. So you now have a boss and you're your own boss. And so it's a big question as to whether, you know, if you, if you want to kind of speed this up, there are advantages to it. If you could find the right partner, but it's, it's a risk, right? If you're willing to try and make a go of it on your own for

• 15:57Speaker 02

  another year, year and a half to see if you can fund it yourself, you retain the control. It's as simple as that.

• 16:05Speaker 03

  Yeah. Andy, are you married?

• 16:07Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I'm married. Yeah.

• 16:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. You got compromised in them relationship sometimes?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. I, I, that's a, I feel like my strongest suit with both of my life partner and my business partner is I'm the, I'm the one that compromises, dude. I'm down to just say, okay, I'm not gonna die in this hill, you know?

• 16:27Speaker 03

  Well, you know what? I, I, you probably, I mean, you bring a partner in and it, that's a whole nother dynamic and, and you can count on a lot more compromise. I think what you're doing is amazing and, and man, what Guy just said, I think is spot on. If you can just keep that snowball building, maybe take a little bit less to live on, keep that money rolling into the business and let it do its thing and, and have some fun with it. But I could see, uh, Bad Luck Burger and Brew is real easy.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 16:59Speaker 02

  I could see that. Yep.

• 17:01Speaker 01

  Heck, yeah, guys.

• 17:02Speaker 02

  And I mean, those are, that's, that's pretty good. That's pretty, I mean, eight hundred grand for two food trucks is pretty great. I mean, I, I would imagine you guys are doing a nice, nice profit there.

• 17:13Speaker 03

  And to be voted the best burger in Nashville?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  Best burger, best food truck. We're about thirty percent profitable.

• 17:19Speaker 02

  Wow.

• 17:19Speaker 01

  Um, and that's with one of those food trucks. Uh, so the, the second truck that we have outside that bar, that started in January of this year. And so we pretty much shifted all of our focus onto getting that running seven days a week, like nonstop. So like the other truck kinda sat around for a while for us to be able to get that operational. So there's, there's a whole nother revenue stream in that truck that didn't really get utilized that well this year.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I feel like you guys are doing something right here.

• 17:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, the mo, I mean, the model sounds perfect. I, you know, you maybe wanna make minor tweaks to make a major impact. Um, the brick and mortar scene and bringing on alcohol and the liability and everything that goes with it. I'd just be mindful of everything that comes with that that's new and different than what you do now.

• 18:09Speaker 01

  For sure. Yeah, it's definitely a big learning curve. We're, like I said, we're learning something new every single day, making it up as we go. But we know a lot more now than we knew, uh, May twenty twenty one, you know?

• 18:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. Burgers look awesome. They look delicious. Congrats, man.

• 18:25Speaker 01

  Heck, yeah. Thanks, guys. I really appreciate y'all.

• 18:28Speaker 02

  Andy Atkins of the Bad Luck Burger Club. Thanks for calling in.

• 18:31Speaker 03

  Good luck, Andy.

• 18:32Speaker 01

  Thanks, guys.

• 18:33Guy Raz?

  Yeah, looks like a good burger, man. I have recently, very sadly, Travis, given up mostly, I'm not going to say entirely, but I would say 99% of the time, given up burgers, just because I'm on like a low, low carb diet. So I, you know, I take my kids in and out and I just sit there wistfully watching them eat.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  Well, I have not done that.

• 19:04Guy Raz?

  You're lucky, man. Go to Bad Luck Burger Club.

• 19:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm ready to go, man.

• 19:09Guy Raz?

  I know, they look delicious. We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another caller with another question for another former guest. Stay with us. You're listening to a special mashup episode of The Advice Line right here on How I Built This Lab.

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• 20:53Guy Raz?

  NetSuite Next surfaces insights exactly when you need them, puts agents to work on routine tasks and problems, and lets you ask complex questions in plain language, like talking to a knowledgeable colleague. But technology is only part of the story. AI is also reshaping how people and teams work together, and that shift is already underway. That's why NetSuite wants to put a new, expert-created business guide in your hands today. It's called Aligning for the Agentic Era: How AI is Changing Everyday Work. And right now, it's yours, absolutely free. Inside, you'll discover how AI could reshape work across your entire organization, and how to position your business to prosper from it.

• 21:38Guy Raz?

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• 23:01Guy Raz?

  Welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. And our next return guest, Michael Praismen, started the online clothing retailer Everlane. And Michael shared that story on the show back in 2023, and we'll put a link to it in the show notes below. Michael caused quite a stir in the fashion world when he publicized his company's production costs at every step along the chain. Over time, Michael ended up building a multimillion-dollar business with a focus on sustainability and social responsibility. And when Michael joined me on The Advice Line, he offered some really great advice about growing a fashion brand through retail partnerships.

• 23:42Speaker 06

  Hi, guys. I'm Tiffany Narbone, the founder of T Giselle. And first, I just have to say, Guy and Michael, I'm so excited. I feel very grateful for this opportunity. Guy, I've been listening to you for so long, especially when I be on the road, heading to appointments for my brand, and it was always just a fuel to me. So I can't believe I even have this chance. So thank you.

• 24:02Guy Raz?

  Amazing. Well, okay. Tell us a little about your brand.

• 24:06Speaker 06

  So our brand, it's an inspirational jewelry brand, and it's all about spreading positivity, being able to wear your story through timeless jewelry. We use all precious gemstones, sterling silver, lifetime guarantee, and all handmade right here on Cape Cod by women. And, you know, our brand is just really, I say, to wear your story.

• 24:24Guy Raz?

  Yeah. Tiffany, I may have missed it. What's the name of the brand?

• 24:29Speaker 06

  T Giselle. I get all excited. I don't even say the name.

• 24:32Guy Raz?

  T Giselle. What is T Giselle?

• 24:36Speaker 06

  So my first name is Tiffany, and my middle name's Giselle. And when coming up with the name of my brand, I made, I started creating jewelry, and something came over me. I never felt, I never had, you know, a vision of being a jewelry designer. Just something brought so much joy to my heart when I made a bracelet. And so everything's always had a meaning. And my middle name is with my, my mom also shares it with me. And so she's such an inspiration to me. She's such my rock. And yeah, so it's just another piece of me.

• 25:08Guy Raz?

  And, and tell me a little bit about the products. I mean, mainly bracelets, right? And they're, they're like, made from, they're like, they're spherical. They're made from like a stone, and they've got a charm on them?

• 25:20Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 25:21Guy Raz?

  Okay. Yeah.

• 25:21Speaker 06

  Yep. So they're all, we use all precious gemstones. So all different semi precious stones from like amethysts to rose quartz, blue aquamarine. And with that, I really created like a dual message. So not only do stones hold meanings and energies, which I've always been into, but charms all have a meaning. You know, you never know what something could symbolize to someone. So with the bracelets, I really kind of combined both those messages and we have an array of styles. So, you know, for instance, like maybe your mom loves rose quartz and you want to get her our family tree, but you could get your sister, you know, maybe she's a blue girl, something for serenity. You can get her that option with the heart. So I say like, you create the story,

• 26:02Speaker 06

  you know, and there's lots of options. So it's definitely turned into a stackable. Um, our returning customer, they want to create, you know, their stack, you know?

• 26:11Guy Raz?

  Yeah. And you make, and you basically make it on Cape Cod?

• 26:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, yep. I have a whole team of women, which is amazing. I love my crew. I couldn't do it without them and they put so much love into every piece and I believe that's a piece of it that comes out when you're wearing it.

• 26:26Guy Raz?

  And you, and you have a shop too, right?

• 26:28Speaker 06

  We do. Yes. We have a store right on the Cape. It was when we first opened, we thought it could be like a showroom for our retailers we work with to come like check out the brand. But then we were like, you know what? We're right on Cape Cod. We're in a popular location, destination for the summer. And it's been great. And so we have just one location on the Cape and then we work with retailers across the country that carry our brand.

• 26:51Guy Raz?

  I love Cape Cod. It's so fun. I've been there a couple of years. It's the best. So, all right, a couple of questions. First of all, this is self-funded, right? This business?

• 27:00Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 27:00Guy Raz?

  And, and are you guys, have you guys broken um half a million dollars in sales yet?

• 27:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, we actually have hit over five million.

• 27:09Guy Raz?

  Wow. Congratulations. Incredible. How many years have you been around?

• 27:13Speaker 06

  Thank you. I founded it in 2012. So I literally was a baby. Yeah. So it's been a minute. It's been a little bit. And so um, now I'm a mom. So I say I'm a mompreneur and you know, our, during COVID, our brand, literally, we were so blessed. It like took off.

• 27:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 27:30Speaker 06

  You know, we, I built the brand through. Doing trade shows and wholesale, but it was so special because I started going live on Facebook and our website. And then I ended up getting reached out to from QVC. So it's been just word of mouth has really built our brand.

• 27:47Guy Raz?

  Yeah. All right. So you're doing about five million revenue. That's great. Congratulations. And, um, and your question, what was your question for us?

• 27:57Speaker 06

  So my question is, you know, really, I want to be able to share more of our brand with like bigger retailers. Like we have a few big independents that we work with, um, in like QVC, but kind of how to get in the face of some of these bigger retailers or partnerships.

• 28:13Guy Raz?

  Just out of curiosity, before we get to your question, um, what do you guys, I mean, roughly, what are you spending on marketing every year?

• 28:20Speaker 06

  On marketing, we're spending about like, I think like 10%.

• 28:26Guy Raz?

  Okay, great. Okay, great. So.

• 28:28Speaker 07

  Very reasonable, very reasonable.

• 28:30Guy Raz?

  Yeah, very reasonable. Okay. So, um, Michael, um, she's got a great brand and, you know, got some momentum, got a store in Cape Cod. Clearly there's, it's resonating, but on QVC. So a lot going for her, but, um, you know, she wants to take it to the next level from five million to 25 million or beyond.

• 28:52Guy Raz?

  We're, I mean, at this point, this is now a mature business, small business. Um, so now, so now what?

• 29:00Speaker 07

  So what I'm thinking about is in my head, as I see this is like, you've done such an amazing job telling your story. And even when I go onto the site, a little video pops up of you and starts, I get to hear your story. And then what you said is, you know, when the pandemic happened, I went live and started telling the story. QVC, you're telling your story and it's live. What is it about that story that's resonating with people? When you tell the story that gets them to go, I want to buy T Giselle because it's so personal, right? It's your name. So clearly there's something there that's happening.

• 29:34Speaker 06

  I think it's just, you know, I'm a very believer in, you know, being kind, what goes around comes around. We all have a story. And when I started my business, it's so crazy. My dad passed about a year in and I wanted to quit. I wanted to stop. And it was like a piece of then Meghan Trainor ended up tweeting my bracelets. And this was when one of her big hits came out.

• 29:56Guy Raz?

  From, from Nantucket. Meghan Trainor from Nantucket. I've interviewed her before. She's a lovely, lovely person.

• 30:04Speaker 06

  Oh, my God. I've never met her, but it literally was, I felt like it was a sign from my dad and Barry in a sign where he was like, you're not quitting. And so I then threw myself into my business. I began doing a lot of events, pop-ups, just cold calling, whatever it took. And it ended up becoming an outlet for me. And now it's more than jewelry. And I think that's really where we strive, you know, and I do it because I loved it. And I feel grateful for my consumers and, you know, just being able to connect to the story, if that makes sense.

• 30:38Speaker 07

  No, it does. And I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how do you take the story you're telling and start to make it into words that make it very clear for people? Because you can't show up everywhere. You know, QVC is one place where you can show up. But eventually, you have to turn this into words on the packaging and everything so that when it's sold in other retailers, you stand out because it is about that spirit and capturing that spirit. When you've gone to big retailers, has how is how, I mean, QVC obviously has been successful, but like, what's your dream and how has it gone?

• 31:11Speaker 06

  So basically, with our retailers, you know, my, my biggest independent is about 120 retailers they have. And we've been a great brand with them. I do training. So they're one like, you know, kind of like you're saying, like, I try to be able to share my brand and get them to really understand it. What separates me from the other brands? Like, why do they want to share my jewelry with their customers? So, you know, I am getting back into doing trade shows. I took some time off from being a mom and just trying to figure out, like, you know, where to put that time or how to get into those spaces or connect, like, connect with that.

• 31:49Speaker 07

  The one, the thing I would say is as you start to scale, again, I go back to the amazing storytelling that you have, and you're going to have to find a way, as my guess, to simplify. And it's finding what is the customer care about when they buy from you? You know, one of the things you said early on that really resonated with me, but I'm not your customer yet, was that it's made in Cape Cod, that it's made by these amazing women. That's such a simple story for retailers to tell, you know? Made in Cape Cod for women by women. It doesn't have to be for women, but made in Cape Cod by women.

• 32:26Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 32:26Speaker 07

  There's the story about, you know, your father. There's the story about every bracelet tells a story. And here's, you know, merchandising by stories that makes it special. So I think it's, I just think that's sitting down with your team and your customers and Guy knows this about me now. It's like, what do you love the brand for? And it has to be, your personality is so compelling. I'm already compelled. I'm like, I want to go buy these right now.

• 32:56Guy Raz?

  Oh, thank you.

• 32:57Speaker 07

  You can't show up everywhere. So the exercise of taking you and bottling it into packaging. So that when they have that display at retail, they can say in less than five seconds, what makes T Giselle so special?

• 33:15Guy Raz?

  Yeah. You know, I was thinking, I'm looking at your website. I noticed that you, it's organized basically based on the collection. So like Black Agate, is it Agate is that how it's pronounced? Yep. And then you, and then you sort of go over each one and it tells you what the charm's name is. Like for example, Cladog, is that how it's pronounced? Clada. Clada, sorry, forgive me. And everyone knows it's like that heart with the, you see a lot of Irish folks wearing it, right? It's the heart with the crown and. Yeah. But what, but, but the thing is, is that that, that symbolizes love, loyalty and friendship, right?

• 33:52Guy Raz?

  A compass rose symbolizes, you know, kind of knowing, knowing who you are and listening to your own inner voice. And I think instead of focusing on the charm, I would focus on what it's about, what it, with the story that it tells. It's kind of doubling down on what Michael is saying. Yeah. And then backing into the, actually the charm, right? And maybe even a way to kind of organize the collections around. Um, you know, around a spirit of feeling, a mood, a personality attribute or trait, you know, like the kindness bracelet or, you know, the, the, the fear, fearlessness bracelet. I mean, so you get that bracelet.

• 34:37Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 34:38Guy Raz?

  And you know that the person knows you because they got you the bracelet that defines and reflects who you are.

• 34:46Speaker 06

  Right.

• 34:47Speaker 07

  And, and with that, I even, I even see you building on, you know, again, I'll just go back to the made in Cape Cod, uh, by, you know.

• 34:55Guy Raz?

  Handmade.

• 34:56Speaker 07

  By, yeah, handmade, handmade in Cape Cod by women.

• 34:59Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 34:59Speaker 07

  Uh, to inspire a more, you know, joyful or more powerful or a more connected world, you know, and.

• 35:07Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 35:08Speaker 07

  And something that simplifies it and then starts to go down to each of those, not the skull charm, but the strength, you know, for those who have strength, here's this charm.

• 35:17Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 35:17Speaker 07

  For those who have this, here's this charm. So exactly what Guy's saying. And, and in a few days of just going through this, and what you'll do is you'll, you'll start to write it down and then you'll show retailers and customers and say, does this resonate? Do you like this?

• 35:31Speaker 06

  Yes.

• 35:31Speaker 07

  Yes or no? What do you like about it? And it's bottling all of the goodness of Tiffany into a box that is so simple that people can just repeat and get excited about.

• 35:43Speaker 06

  I love it. Yes.

• 35:45Guy Raz?

  Yeah. I, I think, yeah, cause it makes it so, then it's, it's a clear.

• 35:51Speaker 06

  Right.

• 35:51Guy Raz?

  Meaningful connection, right?

• 35:53Speaker 06

  Cause that's been like the part tying that all together, like you're saying, bottling that all into the story.

• 35:58Guy Raz?

  And when somebody gives you something like this, like a bracelet or necklace that is, isn't just a random thing or even just, just, but actually there's a symbolic meaning around it that was for you that it's like, they're not just gifting you this thing. They're, they're gift, they're showing you that they really put time into thinking about getting something specifically for you.

• 36:22Speaker 07

  Yeah. And what they see in you.

• 36:24Guy Raz?

  What they, exactly what they see in you. Yeah.

• 36:27Speaker 06

  Oh my God. Thank you guys. I love it. I feel so good.

• 36:30Guy Raz?

  Awesome. All right. Well, the brand is called T Giselle Tiffany. Good luck. Thank you so much. Congrats on building this business so far.

• 36:37Speaker 07

  Cool. It's really cool.

• 36:39Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 36:40Speaker 07

  That's a feel good story.

• 36:42Guy Raz?

  It is. You know how I buy my, my wife jewelry? She sends me links on the internet and says, buy me this.

• 36:51Speaker 07

  I do it. And I'm about the opposite. I go vintage shopping on auctions and bid for jewelry for my wife. So it's like, we could not be more opposite.

• 37:00Guy Raz?

  I cannot do that because then I'm like, is this, did I pick the right thing? Did I get what you were looking for?

• 37:07Speaker 07

  I love it. Yeah.

• 37:10Guy Raz?

  We're going to take another quick break. We'll be right back. Stay with us. You're listening to a special mashup episode of The Advice Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.

• 37:27Guy Raz?

  Hey, welcome back to The Advice Line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz. So my next return guest, Chris Ruder, turned the game Spikeball into a massive brand with a global following. Chris was first on the show back in 2023, and he told the story of taking a game that he and his friends played as kids and marketing it as a competitive sport. And he found traction with some unexpected tribes of people that became evangelists for the brand, including Christian youth groups and PE teachers. And if you want to hear that story, we'll put a link to it in the podcast episode description. When Chris joined me on The Advice Line, he offered some great guidance on how to grow another US sports brand internationally.

• 38:11Speaker 08

  Hi there. Hi, Guy. Hi, Chris. My name is Peter Houck.

• 38:14Guy Raz?

  Hey, Peter.

• 38:15Speaker 08

  I'm from beautiful Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I'm calling today to talk to you guys about RinkRabbit, a direct-to-consumer e-commerce figure scanning company. We currently have two products, a rink tote that we launched the company with, and a figure skating backpack that we rolled out about a year ago. We've seen a lot of growth in the last 12 months.

• 38:33Guy Raz?

  Wow. Okay. Well, congrats. Thanks for calling in, Peter. Okay, so RinkRabbit. You make accessories for ice skating. You don't make ice skates.

• 38:42Speaker 08

  Yep, exactly. That's a big point of confusion. Yeah, we we make bags.

• 38:45Guy Raz?

  Okay, so bags and what else for for ice skate ice skaters?

• 38:49Speaker 08

  Yeah, so we make a backpack that physically holds your figure skates. And then we have a tote and the tote sits on the boards that go around the edge of the ice rink. And it holds all the things a skater needs while they're on the ice. So they don't have to hop off the ice to go grab a drink of water or blow their nose. Ice time is expensive, so we try and make that as

• 39:06Guy Raz?

  Yeah.

• 39:06Speaker 08

  efficient as possible.

• 39:07Guy Raz?

  All right, I live in Northern California, so I don't I don't not aware of many ice skating rinks directly in my area, but you know, Sioux Falls, South Dakota gets pretty cold in winter. And I think, you know, right, there's a more of a skating culture there. How big is the is the opportunity?

• 39:25Speaker 08

  Yeah, it's difficult to determine. You know, I've done a ton of research to try and figure out how many figure skaters there are, especially in the US. There's there's a bunch of people. There's probably over a million people that that are figure skaters. You know, it's an Olympic sport, so it's very widely widely accepted.

• 39:41Guy Raz?

  Give me a sense of how you're doing like right now. What's your what's your revenue roughly?

• 39:46Speaker 08

  Yeah, so over the past few years, we've we've grown pretty substantially each year. Our first year, you know, our first couple of months, we we launched in October. And from October to December, we did like $1,000 in sales and then

• 39:59Guy Raz?

  It's October of 2023.

• 40:00Speaker 08

  2021 is actually the year that we launched. Yeah.

• 40:03Guy Raz?

  Okay.

• 40:03Speaker 08

  And then we did 13,000 in 2022 and then 23,000 in 2023. And we've done a little over $100,000 year to date in 2024.

• 40:13Guy Raz?

  Congratulations. That's amazing.

• 40:15Speaker 08

  We're building the brand. We're, you know, our the one of the benefits of our product is that when skaters see it, they know they want it. So obviously, when we started, and nobody knew who we were, what our product was, it took a little while for us to gain some speed. But that's why I'm excited to be talking to you today, Chris, because you know, it seems like that's kind of how Spikeball grew was was by having people see you playing Spikeball.

• 40:37Guy Raz?

  And Spikeball even more more niche than figure skating. What Peter, what's your question for us today?

• 40:43Speaker 08

  Yeah, so figure skating is obviously an international sport and we see great potential for our brand to become an international brand. You know, we've seen a lot of growth organically in the United States as people have become more and more aware of our product. And we have people right now that are spending quite a bit of money to ship our product to them internationally. We've sold products in 16 different countries and those people are paying about the equivalent of the value of the product in the first place to ship it to them in, you know, Australia, or Canada, or the UK, or wherever. And so, we think that there's this big opportunity if we were to tackle the international market. But we don't know if that's the right thing for us to be doing right now or not. Should we

• 41:25Speaker 08

  focus on rolling out more products? Or should we focus on trying to address this international market where a significant number of figure skaters exist?

• 41:33Guy Raz?

  Got it. Let me bring you in, Chris Ruder. What do you think? I mean, before we answer Peter's question, any thoughts or questions that you might have for Peter?

• 41:42Speaker 09

  Number one, I love it, this story. Although our products are wildly different, the stories, this is really bringing me back to our early days. Not only is it a niche audience, but also, when you first mentioned international, I got a little uncomfortable because I know a lot of entrepreneurs in the early days, like, oh, international, the opportunity could be massive. In my experience, the only time, I shouldn't say the only time, but the time where it makes the most sense to really consider it, is if you have that existing demand. If you don't, then man, it feels like a really heavy lift. But I love that you've got the demand. I love that people are spending just, you know, it's funny, Australians

• 42:25Speaker 09

  in early days, they would spend just as much on shipping as they would for a Spikeball set. And we're like, oh, wait, that is the marketplace talking to us.

• 42:33Guy Raz?

  Peter, let me ask you a question about the main product now, right? Which is the bag. And the bag, very specifically designed for ice skaters, how protected is your product? I mean, Spikeball is patented. You cannot make Spikeball. People have tried to do fakes, but they get shut down. You guys can shut them down, Chris. But, I mean, is this something that could be replicated in China and sold on Amazon?

• 43:03Speaker 08

  Yeah, so we have our name trademarked, first of all. So Rink Rabbit is trademarked. And we also have patents on the design of both of our products. And we just filed our patent for our backpack relatively recently. And with that one, we did it in other markets as well. I'm not sure exactly all the ones that we ended up including, but we filed a patent across a wide array of European countries especially. And the thing about Amazon is when you have that patent protection and that trademark protection, you can strike down other Amazon listings that are confusingly similar. So that's a big part of the reason why we opted to spend that money early on as a brand

• 43:47Speaker 08

  is to kind of protect ourselves from the get go.

• 43:51Guy Raz?

  I'm curious, Chris, from your perspective. When you started Spikeball, I mean, it was really, and you had to explain to people, you still do to some extent, but really you had to explain to people what this was. And it was weird and you were on the shores of like Michigan. And you're like, what is this weird thing? I mean, figure skating, ice skating is not weird. Like, people have been doing this for a long, long time. This is a sport that I imagine probably skews more female than male in the United States. Is that fair to say, Peter?

• 44:17Speaker 08

  Yeah, that's really accurate. And actually, one of the issues with other brands in the figure skating space is that they treat skaters more like little girls rather than the serious competitive athletes. My wife was a national champion figure skater when she was in high school.

• 44:32Guy Raz?

  Wow, oh, my God.

• 44:34Speaker 08

  Yeah, so she had five concussions that she got.

• 44:37Guy Raz?

  Five concussions, wow.

• 44:38Speaker 08

  So she was a very serious athlete and going to the rink six to seven days a week for four hours at a time. And the products that were out there weren't built for someone to treat them like an athlete. They were pink and sparkly and fuzzy and not really designed to be super useful. So our whole brand ethos is to design products that are really well made, really aesthetically pleasing and highly functional.

• 45:02Guy Raz?

  Yeah, I mean, you just said something that kind of blew my mind that I did not know. Your wife was the US national figure skating champion. That should be screening that from the front of your webpage. I mean, that, it's like...

• 45:18Guy Raz?

  You are giving me a reason now, if I'm a figure skater or an ice skater, to buy your product. Because it's like, hey, I'm Ally. I mean, no shade to you, your wife Ally. I would have her face on there saying, I was a national champion and I wish I had something like this. So I didn't, so we designed it. Like, I feel like that's got to be right at the center of your brain. I know this wasn't your question, but I don't know, Chris, what do you think?

• 45:43Speaker 09

  Yes, it sounds like you may have the Michael Jordan of figure skating on board. And the world doesn't know it.

• 45:50Guy Raz?

  We don't even know it.

• 45:52Speaker 08

  Yeah, she was on a synchronized skating team that won US Nationals in 2013.

• 45:57Guy Raz?

  That's fine. That's okay. You know how many former journalists I know who say their Pulitzer Prize winners, but 10 people won the award? She's a national champion.

• 46:05Speaker 08

  Yeah, I think she's incredible. So, yeah, I appreciate that.

• 46:08Guy Raz?

  I feel like that needs to be a bigger part of this story here. In terms of international, what's the challenge of selling these internationally? What is the issue for you? Why are you kind of hesitating about this?

• 46:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, so when you ship a product internationally, A, it's much more expensive. So when we ship our products, we're based out of South Dakota, which is in the center of the country, which is really convenient for an e-commerce perspective. But most of the time, our product costs 10 or 12, or at the most, $15 to ship to our end user. But when you ship internationally, it's double that. It's $20 to $30 and it takes five weeks to get there. And then on top of that, when it shows up at their door, they also have to sign and pay another $30, $40, $50, depending on their country, to make up for that. And so, you know, for a $129 or a $70 product, those expenses become pretty prohibitive. But we still have people buying them from us anyway.

• 47:09Speaker 08

  And so I'm wondering, is it worth it for us to try and go set up international distribution centers or something like that? Do we try and partner with wholesalers who are in other countries and ship product directly to them from our manufacturer? Or how do we go about tackling that demand that we see out there?

• 47:27Guy Raz?

  But what percentage of the purchases are coming from abroad? I mean, is it more than 5%? Is it more than 10%?

• 47:35Speaker 08

  It's about 3.5%. Last time I ran the numbers, of our sales are international.

• 47:41Speaker 09

  And US growth is strong. That's 97% of your growth?

• 47:46Speaker 08

  Yeah, 97% of our, 96 and a half percent of our sales are US. And we've grown in the last year by about 800% year over year.

• 47:55Guy Raz?

  It's amazing.

• 47:56Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 47:57Speaker 09

  All right. Given that perspective, I may change my answer a bit on my excitement about international.

• 48:05Speaker 09

  It sounds sexy to tell people you're shipping to 16 countries or however many countries.

• 48:12Speaker 09

  I think the one thing most business owners struggle with, and I do, is focus. If you've got a rocket ship that, would you say 800%, 600% or something like that?

• 48:24Speaker 08

  Yeah, year over year this year, yep.

• 48:26Speaker 09

  Wow, that is where your attention needs to be. As long as you've got your trademarks elsewhere, you're still in control, even if you're not selling a single set there.

• 48:37Speaker 09

  So yeah, I'd encourage you to make sure the US machine can continue that. And when it is time for international, you know, don't go buy your own warehouse, of course, or do whatever. There's plenty of companies all over the world that you can ship 50 units to them. They'll leave it in the corner and they'll tidy. Are you on a Shopify site or something like that?

• 49:00Speaker 08

  Yeah, we run on Shopify.

• 49:02Speaker 09

  Yeah, so you can tie that into a lot of backend suppliers where order comes through. You forward it and it's done. But man, if your US is growing that fast, I think that's where your attention needs to be.

• 49:17Guy Raz?

  I have to agree with that, Chris. I think that, that, you know, for the odd Australian or, or, you know, someone from the UK that's writing in, I mean, there are ways around that. Like, if you're getting a bunch of orders from people in London or Sydney, like it might be worthwhile partnering with a skating shop in London and just flying there twice a year with a suitcase packed with these and just leave them there and have them sell it in the meantime. But to me, it seems like the most fertile ground, the most fertile territory for you is right in your backyard. I mean, the United States and Canada, which is where I think your primary customers are going to be living.

• 50:02Speaker 08

  Yeah, and I think, you know, I do think that there's a lot of room for us. You know, we, our ultimate goal is to be one brand that sells figure skaters everything they need to, to practice the sport of figure skating. You know, hockey as a sport has Bauer as a brand that will sell you everything. Golf has Titleist, but in figure skating, it's really a bunch of mom and pop shops that all sell one or two or three products at most. And so we see a big opportunity for us to come in and roll out nine, 10, 11, 12, whatever, however many products it is that, that are all aimed specifically at our target market of figure skaters and to be the name brand for figure skating equipment in the country.

• 50:43Guy Raz?

  Peter, you gotta put your wife's picture right at the front and center of this brand. National Champion Figure Skater. I mean, she might be reluctant, but what it's like, how, how much better can you be in terms of offering expertise?

• 50:57Speaker 08

  Yeah.

• 50:58Guy Raz?

  Peter Hawk, the brand is called Rink Rabbit. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck.

• 51:04Speaker 08

  Thanks for taking the time. I appreciate it.

• 51:06Guy Raz?

  All right, man. Thanks. Thank you, Peter. Nice. I mean, I, I mean, ice skate, there's no lifestyle brand around ice skate. Like, this seems like a big opportunity here, right? Absolutely. That's Chris Ruder, founder of Spikeball. Hey, thanks so much for listening to this special mashup edition of The Advice Line this week. And a special thanks to Travis Boersma of Dutch Bros, Michael Preysman of Everlane, and Chris Ruder of Spikeball for joining me on the show. And if you haven't heard their original episodes or their full episodes of Advice Line, you'll definitely want to check them out. We will put links in the show notes. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. It is full of ideas and advice on how to run a business and hopefully some inspiring messages as well.

• 51:49Guy Raz?

  Every week, we put in tons of insights from entrepreneurs and my own experiences and observations interviewing some of the greatest entrepreneurs in the world. And you can sign up for that on Substack or at guyraz.com. And if you're working on a business and you'd like to be on this show, send us a one minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like some help with, and hopefully we can help you with them. And please make sure to tell us how to reach you. You can send us a voice memo at [email protected] or call us at 1-800-433-1298. And we'll put all of this in the episode description as well, so don't worry. This episode was produced by Kerry Thompson, with music composed by Ramtin Arablouei.

• 52:34Guy Raz?

  It was edited by John Isabella. Our audio engineer was Neil Rouch. Our production team also includes Alex Chung, Casey Herman, Carla Estevez, Elaine Coats, J.C. Howard, Catherine Seifer, Sam Paulson, Iman Maani, and Neva Grant. I'm Guy Raz, and you've been listening to The View Vise Line, right here on How I Built This Lab.