The quiet reinvention of a $42b business, with Canva’s Cameron Adams

In the last year, Canva redefined itself from the ground up. Co-founder and Chief Product Officer Cameron Adams joins Rapid Response live from the Cannes Lions festival to explain why the so-called SaaSpocalypse never kept him up at night, how Canva shifted from a design company to an AI company without losing what made it great, and why being only 1% of the way there is actually the most exciting place to be. Adams also shares the specific steps anyone can take to get real impact from AI tools rather than just falling down the rabbit hole, and makes the case that in a world of commoditized models, your organization's unfair advantage is the only thing that matters. Eager for more of Cam? Take a moment to listen and download his own podcast, Prompted https://promptedpodcast.com/! Visit the Rapid Response website here: https://www.rapidresponseshow.com/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:43Speaker 01

  We now have quarter of a billion people that use Canva every single month. We need to make sure that Canva empowers the whole world to design through everything that we do, and that the AI that we use and develop truly represents the world as well. The real power that we've seen with AI is when you can amplify ideas, and when you can take what AI gives you and build on top of it, put your own stamp on it, make it authentic, and make it connect with the real people that you want to connect with.

• 2:20Bob Safian?

  That's Cameron Adams, Chief Product Officer and co-founder of Canva. I talked with Cam onstage at the Cannes Lions Festival about Canva's dramatic last year as it redefined itself from a design company to an AI company. Cam challenges the idea of the so-called SaaS apocalypse, talks about how product cycles are accelerating, and argues that Canva and its kin help everyday users stay up to speed as technology shifts. He also shares specific steps we can each take to get more impact out of AI, plus the power of exploiting what he calls each organization's unique unfair advantage. It's an idea-filled romp through

• 3:02Bob Safian?

  technology and creativity. So let's get to it. I'm Bob Safian, and this is Rapid Response.

• 3:16Bob Safian?

  I'm joined this morning by Cameron Adams, who is the Chief Product Officer and co-founder of Canva. Cam, thanks for doing this and inviting me to your house this morning.

• 3:27Speaker 01

  It is amazing to be chatting with you here in the amazing cabana behind the ducks.

• 3:32Bob Safian?

  I was talking to Cam backstage about the challenge of this year of living dangerously with AI changing so much and Canva itself being under a different kind of pressure. Has it been a good year? What's made it a dangerous year?

• 3:48Speaker 01

  I'd probably say it's been an interesting year. And I think we've always been running a marathon at Canva. Like, we've always had an incredibly long-term vision. This year, feels like we're sprinting that marathon just a little bit.

• 4:01Bob Safian?

  You said that you now consider Canva to be an AI company that does design, rather than a design company that does AI. That seems like a big change to make in a company as big as Canva is.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  It has been a big change. Having a strong bench of AI researchers and ML engineers has enabled us to rapidly move on the product, and particularly to develop our own unique blend of AI. It's not just repackaging an LLM. It's like deep technical research and unique IP that now exists within the Canva platform. The last year, both the team has scaled up, which has enabled us to ship more. But also, we've entered kind of a new cadence of product shipping. And to me, it feels really exciting because it's almost a return to our startup roots. It's not thinking about 6,000 people and moving them all like the

• 4:57Speaker 01

  Titanic. It is literally a bunch of speedboats that are now going around and shipping as much customer value as we possibly can on a week-by-week cadence.

• 5:06Bob Safian?

  When you're moving at the pace of AI, I guess your product pace has to be faster than it was. How much do you worry about what that means to your users? Like, if the product changes too fast for them, you know, they're not looking for it to change. They're looking for it to continue to do the things they want it to do. Is all the change behind the scenes? Or how do you get the customer to be up to speed with you?

• 5:29Speaker 01

  Definitely, there's a lot of behind-the-scenes change in terms of how quickly our teams are putting features out, and particularly just how quickly we get it out to our own internal team. Because every great software company, every great AI company is shipping to themselves first. So we're literally shipping every day new stuff to the Canva team to try out, to see if it's good quality enough, to see how we need to change the experience to map to it. But as you say, if you did that to your customers, they would be incredibly frustrated because they just want to turn up, get their job done. So you have to be careful with when you do roll out a very major change to like app architecture or anything

• 6:11Speaker 01

  like that. But you can roll out smaller stuff quite easily. So you can roll out improvements to models, you can roll out a new filter that you could apply to an image, or a new kind of workflow that you can apply to your images. So try not to like move all the pieces around too much, but adding in new pieces you can do fairly scaly.

• 6:30Bob Safian?

  And when you think about the playbook of how you've had to refocus the company and the product, do you look at, you know, some of the companies in Silicon Valley and say, oh, we're going to do it that way, or we're not going to do it that way? I mean, you guys are far from Silicon Valley in Sydney.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  We've made, I think, a couple of really pivotal changes to the way that we work with our teams to enable that. Firstly, it is use whatever tool you need. So we're not mandating Claude, or ChatGPT, or Gemini, or whatever tool you want to use in your part of the company. You can figure it out. You've got spend to try out our tools, to figure out your workflow, your process, and tackle the problems that you have. Giving people that freedom is really important because they need to feel comfortable experimenting. And if you force a tool on them, they're just going to do that very begrudgingly, and they're

• 7:27Speaker 01

  not going to enter into this very experimental mindset that we need them to. And the second part is giving them the time to just explore and try things out. I'm sure we're all terribly busy and trying to get 101 things done every single week, and you naturally fall into the patterns that you would normally do things in. You've got your tried and tested tools, you know how they work, you'll always reach for them. So you're not looking for that medium-term and long-term improvement that you can get through some of these tools. So we give our staff plenty of time to just sit back, put down their tools, get out of the business as usual, and get stuff done. And something we did a month ago called AI

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Discovery Week really speaks to that. The whole week, we said to people, please don't do your normal work. We want you to think of the problems that you have, the tools that you've heard about, the opportunities that you've heard from colleagues in other industries, and we want you to try those out for the entire week. And at the end of the week, we did a massive show and tell where people showed off what they did. And we had about 400 or 500 different projects that people showed off, employing AI in different ways, from our legal team, to our finance team, to of course, our product and engineering teams. And it was super energizing.

• 8:43Bob Safian?

  Are those tools that you're actually implementing, or they're more like prototypes for things?

• 8:47Speaker 01

  I think almost half of them are now pretty much in production. In production internally, or in production actually going to our customers. So our legal team rolled out a trademark-checking application because they spend thousands of hours every year thinking about our product names, what we're shipping, and whether all across the world, we can trademark that and legally use that. And they've now rolled out a tool which has literally saved them 1,500 hours of work.

• 9:16Bob Safian?

  How do you think about sort of? Being disciplined about experimenting with and growing and using these tools, but not having it. I mean, I know it's supposed to make me more efficient, but sometimes I find I just, I'm doing so many different new things that maybe I'm not being as inefficient.

• 9:32Speaker 01

  Personally, I don't like just picking up a tool with no random use case and just experimenting with it. I really like to take something that I'm working on now or a problem that I'm feeling, and then bring a tool to bear on that and learn through that process. That's how we've seen our staff also get the most value out of AI experimentation. It's when they're dealing with a real problem.

• 9:57Bob Safian?

  So you launched Canva AI 2.0 in April.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 10:02Bob Safian?

  It's, which is a conversational assistant, right? That helps to generate designs from descriptions rather than from templates. How do you know when you're amplifying creativity versus kind of automating it away? I mean, that's some of the anxiety that, that comes around with using AI tools.

• 10:20Speaker 01

  One of the principles that we adhere to as we're developing an AI product is that we need to keep humans in the driver's seat. We don't want to create a product that automates everything away, that automates creativity and taste and judgment, and purports to give you a solution where you don't need to interact with it at all. The real power that we've seen with AI is when you can amplify ideas and when you can take what AI gives you and build on top of it. We've seen many dead ends in other products where you ask it for something, it gives you something back, and you can't do anything with that. You either take it or you leave it. It's a flat image or it's a swathe of text that you then have to copy and paste somewhere else.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  And Canva is all about enhancing people's creativity and, and getting them involved in that creative process. So yes, AI can give you 101 generated images. It can generate copy lines for you, or it can help you draft a blog post. But you need to take that, put your own stamp on it, make it authentic, and make it connect with the real people that you want to connect with. So every part of AI in Canva is editable. Anything that you produce, you need to be able to take into a normal Canva design, share with your team, collaborate with your marketing folks and your sales folks and your HR team, and bring them into it as a first-class citizen, not as a tack-on to technology.

• 11:49Bob Safian?

  I, I always felt like that part of Canvas' promise, it like helped me as a user to have better taste. How do you, with AI, you're sort of providing that originality and maintaining soul at the same time? Like, can you, can you teach an AI model to sort of have empathy, to understand the emotional reaction that humans are going to have?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  I'm not sure whether you can teach it empathy, but you can also, you can give it some understanding of the context that we're living in and the goals that we're trying to achieve. And that's very much what we do when we're integrating this AI into our platform. When you talk about conversational AI, it literally is designing a conversation, which is kind of a new field for many different people. But designing a conversational interface is quite different to something that you point and click on.

• 12:42Bob Safian?

  Right, which is the way I, I used to engage with Canva.

• 12:46Speaker 01

  Exactly. So you need to put a lot of thought into it, and there's new ways that you can shape that conversation that you're having with an AI. There's a ton that goes into the system prompt. There's a ton of orchestration that you have between different agents, and all of that forms part of the experience. So it's definitely like a frontier land for building product, but one that our team have been really excited about entering. And when you see a well-designed conversation that gives you insight into the creative process, like an AI that helps you understand better font choices, why it chose this color, so that you can then roll that into your taste and judgment. I think that is the type of conversation we want to be having with AI, rather than just a quite a mercenary or functional interaction.

• 13:30Bob Safian?

  When you're sort of tuning the models for your use, you're putting guardrails in to say like, yeah, don't put these things together, like there are certain design principles that are baked in behind it?

• 13:43Speaker 01

  We have an amazing understanding of design, both from an internal experts level, whose knowledge and experience we can bake into the AI experience. And we also have a tremendous amount of data from our customers as they've interacted with designs. That can also help the AI understand what people want to achieve. So we've baked all that into what we call the Canva Design Model, which is actually the world's first foundational design model that we released last year. It goes far further than many of the general purpose models that you have access to, and it specifically knows what good design looks like and what you're trying to achieve with your design.

• 14:26Bob Safian?

  I want to pause here to underscore what Cam is saying. Canvas' AI platform is bespoke to its users, to the craft of design. In that way, it's like a window into how AI is evolving to be more purpose and project-specific. So is there a competitive advantage in working across multiple AI models, like Gemini and ChatGPT and the like? And what's it been like to help lead Canva through the storm of the so-called SaaS apocalypse? We'll talk about that and more after the break. Stay with us.

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• 16:56Bob Safian?

  Before the break, Canvas' Cam Adams talked about a year of dramatic change from being design-first to being AI-first. Now he explains why he's not phased by the so-called SaaS apocalypse, what Canva needs in its pursuit of a billion users, and the power of exploiting each organization's unique unfair advantage. Let's dive back in.

• 17:24Bob Safian?

  There's that, that phrase that became popularized or talked about earlier this year, SaaS apocalypse.

• 17:30Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 17:30Bob Safian?

  Right? That, that, that businesses based around software, not, not unlike Canva, were suddenly vulnerable to obsolescence because of what the models could do. Is that something that, that worried you, that spurred you in a different way?

• 17:45Speaker 01

  It doesn't get worried us, but it, it certainly gave us an interesting viewpoint to take as we, we thought more deeply about building an AI platform. I think this notion that there's going to be one place that the entire world goes to, to do all of their work, I don't think is going to be, be a reality. And tools like Canva, the focus on particular areas like visual communication and visual content creation, will be able to create an experience that is far deeper, far richer, and gets you better results. At the end of the day, that's what we all want. We want better results for what we're trying to do, and Canva can certainly do that with visual AI.

• 18:27Bob Safian?

  There's a lot of talk these days about the responsibility of AI companies. It's sort of, just because you can do something maybe doesn't mean you should. What kind of responsibility do you feel like Canva has?

• 18:40Speaker 01

  We feel a very deep responsibility. We now have quarter of a billion people that use Canva every single month. And being able to fuel more of that through AI, through better product development, is an incredible responsibility we feel. We are very optimistic that Canva will get to over a billion people using Canva itself. That puts a responsibility on us to make sure that every person in the world can access that, not just the rich few, not just a few people who can speak English, but literally everyone in the world who speaks different languages, who has different economic capabilities, who operates on different devices. We need to make sure that Canva empowers the whole world to design through everything that we do,

• 19:23Speaker 01

  and that the AI that we use and develop truly represents the world as well.

• 19:28Bob Safian?

  I will say that when I speak publicly at this, this event of creativity that we're at here, you know, people talk about all the great things that AI can do. And more privately, you know, people worry about their creativity being taken away or how AI is going to step in and take jobs. Like, do you have advice for, for people who sort of want to stay creative, but also don't want to fall behind technologically? Can we just trust that the canvass of the world are going to sort of take care of that for us? Or do we have to be learning these tools and figuring out how to do it in addition to that?

• 20:07Speaker 01

  You can definitely trust the Canva of the world to, to enable your creativity, but you also need to take your, take your own hand in this moment and in the changes that's happening. And I can fully understand why a lot of people feel a bit...

• 20:24Speaker 01

  Fearful or hesitant about what's going on because that always happens in moments of change. But speaking personally, I've been through tremendous amount of change in my life and embracing that change has without a doubt been the most important part to shaping a better life for myself.

• 20:42Bob Safian?

  Hmm.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  And in this moment of AI, looking at the tools, figuring out how it integrates into your creative process is really important because no one in this room has the same creative process. Some of us think in images, some of us think in words, some of us sketch, some of us entirely work on a computer. And that is a legitimate creative process. Your creative process is your own creative process. Figuring out how AI fits into that is the most important thing you can be doing right now. And that doesn't mean you need to use AI for everything. It means you can use AI to convert your sketch into 15 other variations, or you can brainstorm on a whiteboard about what an event space looks like, or

• 21:27Speaker 01

  you can use it to give you the first draft of a marketing email.

• 21:30Bob Safian?

  And you don't have to embrace a conversational interface if you don't want to?

• 21:35Speaker 01

  Doesn't have to be conversational. And that's one of the things we focus on at Canva is not everything needs to be spoken or written. You need to be able to work visually with your tools as well.

• 21:47Bob Safian?

  You talk about all these new things that Canva can do now. It's still early days with AI. Like, how far along are we? How much do you feel like Canva's gonna change from here?

• 22:01Speaker 01

  We are just started. And it's actually a phrase we have inside Canva that we're only ever 1% of the way there. Because the other 99% just keeps growing and evolving and changing. And it's honestly exciting, because that means that there's still an incredible amount of opportunity ahead for us.

• 22:20Bob Safian?

  Do you have a favorite model? Or are you model agnostic?

• 22:24Speaker 01

  We're pretty model agnostic. There's like constantly frogging all the time.

• 22:28Bob Safian?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 01

  And it is, it's great to have both Gemini, Claude, and ChatGPT duking it out because that's what drives innovation. Innovation is never driven by sitting on your laurels and thinking the world is fine. Innovation is driven by people pushing you. And it's great to have folks like that pushing us, us pushing them. It creates, I think, a better world for users because they get more choice, they get more innovation.

• 22:56Bob Safian?

  Yeah.

• 22:56Speaker 01

  And they get better things out of it.

• 22:58Bob Safian?

  One of your colleagues said to me, every company needs to understand its own unfair advantage in this platform shift. What defines an unfair advantage? What's Canva's unfair advantage?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I think our unfair advantage is being able to tap into people's creativity at scale. We can ship incredibly impactful features at the switch of a button. That goes out to a huge audience who then immediately take that and start deploying it on real projects all over the world. We've got over 500 designs created in Canva every single second. And every one of those designs has a story behind it. It has a story of someone trying to build their company, or it's the story of someone trying to teach a better class in a high school down the road. And I feel very privileged to see those stories coming through the Canva

• 23:53Speaker 01

  platform. And we use it to inspire our users with the stories of other design creators. And we use it to improve the product as well.

• 24:01Bob Safian?

  For the folks who are here listening, who, they may be creators, they may be running or building their own businesses, their own products. How do you think about your business differently, maybe than you did a year ago? And what advice do you have for them for what they should be focusing on in the year ahead?

• 24:21Speaker 01

  Uh, probably the way I think of our business differently is that we're now closer to the goals end of what people are trying to achieve rather than the design end. So a lot of people used to come to Canva just to get a picture out of it. Like, I wanted something for my social media channel, or I want a flyer that I can send out to my customers. Now we're getting closer to the goal. The goal is finding more customers, increasing sales of products, having more impact through my nonprofit, finding more volunteers. And with AI, in that creative workflow, we can now get closer to those goals. Because people can come to us and ask, how do I get more customers? Given my product,

• 25:04Speaker 01

  given the photos I took yesterday, given some video footage that I took at this conference, what can I create that is going to get me closer to my customers? And that's a really exciting question to be able to ask inside a product.

• 25:18Bob Safian?

  Cam, this has been great. Thanks again for inviting me to your cabana.

• 25:22Speaker 01

  No worries. Thank you.

• 25:33Bob Safian?

  AI's role in moving Canva users from being image focused or design focused to being goals focused, it's a pretty radical step, and one not everyone's going to be comfortable with. But it does offer the promise of helping us to be more sophisticated and strategic in our decision making. I was struck by Cam's assertion that Canva is still only at 1% of its potential. That's both terrifying and reassuring. I mean, if a $42 billion company is only 1% evolved, the future ahead of us is pretty murky. But on the other hand, moonshot aspirations are what lead to progress and opportunity. Plus, they're fun. So here's to practicing gratitude for the infinite starting line. Even in an AI world, we've

• 26:18Bob Safian?

  got to take some creative license. I'm Bob Safian. Thanks for listening.

• 26:29Speaker 00

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• 27:10Speaker 00

  Before we get to the rest of our conversation today, I want to spend a moment sharing with you about Masters of Scale Summit, which returns to San Francisco this October 20th to 22nd. So many of us feel overwhelmed right now. It feels like so much of the world is careening, and we don't have power, we don't have agency. That's the thing about the Masters of Scale Summit. It's really designed to remind us that we do have agency, agency to lead, agency to design, to build the relationships and the partnerships that empower us and to make the change that we want to see. We program a stage, we curate an audience, we set a schedule that builds in time for these relationships to be made

• 27:52Speaker 00

  and to grow, so that by the time you leave Summit, you are fired out of a cannon, ready to run through walls to do better in the world with the agency that you actually have. I hope to see you there. Visit mastersofscale.com/summit.

• 28:13Bob Safian?

  Hey, listeners, Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Masters of Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday, we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely, from Ford CEO to NASA's administrator, to the lessons from the devil wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts and hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there.

• 28:51Bob Safian?

  Rapid Response is a Wait What original. I'm Bob Safian. Our executive producer is Eve Trow. Our senior producer is Alex Morris, and our associate producer is Masha Makutonina. Mixing and mastering by Aaron Bastinelli and Brian Pugh. Our theme music is by Ryan Holiday. Our head of podcasts is Lital Malad. For more, visit rapidresponseshow.com.

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Humans will never be more intelligent than AI.

• 29:30Speaker 04

  There's going to be two types of companies. Those are great at AI, and those that went out of business because they weren't.

• 29:35Speaker 05

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