Why You Overthink Every Conversation After It Ends ft. Shadé Zahrai

There’s a voice in your head—and it’s shaping more of your life than you realize. In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Shadé Zahrai to break down the real science behind self-doubt, where it comes from, and why it shows up strongest after your conversations—not before them. We walk through the four hidden “voices” driving your inner critic and how to separate from them so they stop running the show. If you’ve ever replayed a conversation in your head or felt like you’re not enough, this episode gives you the tools to change that. Buy her book Big Trust: Rewire Self-Doubt, Find Your Confidence, and Fuel Success: https://www.shadezahrai.com/bigtrust Take Shadé’s Doubt Profile Quiz: https://www.shadezahrai.com/doubtprofile Join me on Supercast for ad-free episodes, bonus content, and AMAs: https://jefferson.supercast.com/ Order The Next Conversation Workbook: https://www.jeffersonfisher.com/workbook Thank you to our sponsors: Cozy Earth. Upgrade Your Every Day. Get 20% off at cozyearth.com/jefferson or use code JEFFERSON at check out. ZocDoc. https://zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. Dose. Save 35% on your first month of subscription by going to dosedaily.co/JEFFERSON or entering JEFFERSON at checkout. BetterHelp. Click https://betterhelp.com/jeffersonfisher for a discount on your first month of therapy. Order my book, The Next Conversation, or listen to the full audiobook today. Like what you hear? Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a 5-star review! Suggest a topic or ask a question for me to answer on the show! Want a FREE communication tip each week? Click here to join my newsletter. Join My School of Communication Watch my podcast on YouTube Follow me on Instagram Follow me on TikTok Follow me on LinkedIn Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Hey Spotify listeners. When you travel with American Airlines, you'll enjoy comfort and convenience at every altitude. Before takeoff, unwind in the Admirals Club Lounge with curated self-serve offerings of hearty bites and refreshments. In flight, stay connected with high-speed Wi-Fi, sponsored by AT&T. Your journey is designed to feel easy from the moment you check in to the moment you arrive. No matter where you're going, American gets you there. Book now at aa.com.

• 0:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Are you somebody who's ever struggled with self-doubt? I know I have. Today, I am talking with the one and only Dr. Shadé Zari, who's probably one of the loveliest humans you'll ever get to hear. Her book is titled Big Trust: Rewire Self-Doubt, Find Your Confidence, and Fuel Success. This is a book you are going to want to get. You'll find the links down in the show notes. Today, we are talking all about self-doubt, the elements of it, what happens, and how to fix it, how to attack it, and how to live with it. It's an episode you're going to love. I hope you enjoy the conversation. I want to go back to when we talk about what a lot of people listening don't understand what happens from the, whatever we call that space, creator, influencer, author, speaker,

• 1:12Jefferson Fisher?

  that you, we find some vein that we want to plug into and go, I like this. I like talking about this kind of stuff. And now we're at a place where you have a book, you do the podcast, you do the conversations, and especially after shows, podcast shows, or even speaking, right after it, there's this moment where, at least for me, I turn into the biggest critic of myself. And so I know you're going to have a lot on this. What is the science behind being your own worst critic?

• 1:55Speaker 02

  Where do we start? There's actually so much we could explore here. I think we need to acknowledge that any kind of doubt that we have, any kind of criticism that we experience, it's entirely natural. It's entirely human. It's a function of the brain that is wired to try and keep us safe and protect us. But how that manifests in our modern day world is that we become hypercritical and we attack ourselves and we become our own worst enemy. And so those people who are able to still experience that, but then detach from that voice and still take action anyway, they're the ones who succeed. It's actually super fascinating. So I spent the last five years studying self doubt, why we doubt ourselves, why we get self critical.

• 2:36Jefferson Fisher?

  You got PhD?

• 2:37Speaker 02

  Yes, exactly. One of the hardest things I've ever done.

• 2:39Jefferson Fisher?

  A doctor now?

• 2:40Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 2:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Organizational behavior?

• 2:42Speaker 02

  Organizational behavior, exactly. So it's like the applied psychology within organizations and how it affects us at work.

• 2:48Jefferson Fisher?

  That's incredible.

• 2:48Speaker 02

  You know, yeah, job performance, career satisfaction. And so what we found is that for vast majority of people, so I'm talking about 95% of people, we all have self doubt. We have that inner critical voice. But not everyone suffers intensely as a result of it. There is something they do differently. And what they do differently, in layman's terms, is they can detach from the voice. So basically, they know it's there. They maybe engage with it a little, but then they make either a conscious or a subconscious decision to go, okay, well, it's there, but it's not a verdict on who I am. I don't have to listen to it. What action can I take? Anyway, how do I positively distract myself? How do I do something different or learn from it to then get better next time?

• 3:32Speaker 02

  So that's actually the main difference between those who succeed and those who really, really struggle.

• 3:37Jefferson Fisher?

  How interesting.

• 3:38Speaker 02

  It is.

• 3:39Jefferson Fisher?

  I, what I hear you saying is, everybody has some amount of doubt. And in fact, I'd say doubt is healthy. If you thought that everything you did was 100% perfect, that would be more of a, a bigger indicator of a problem. In my mind, I like to... I have these personalities, not that I'm saying I have some problem with my personality. I have different, when I have different thoughts, I try to give them a personality. Meaning, my critic, I sometimes will just call Greg.

• 4:12Speaker 02

  Greg.

• 4:13Jefferson Fisher?

  And like, if somebody is, you know, really happy, I might say Travis. Or like, I might, just, I'm inventing names, and they change. But it's, it's this ability that I try to do to detach from, this is not, Greg is not all of me. He's not all of Jefferson. It's sometimes, and then that way you kind of be the director of your, these personalities, like where you're trying to get feedback from all of them, and you're like, "That's a good point. All right, Greg. Yep, I agree. You could have done that better." "Okay, what we got from the?"

• 4:46Speaker 02

  Let's move along now, Travis. What do you think about this?

• 4:48Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly. Do you think that's healthy?

• 4:50Speaker 02

  A hundred percent. In fact, it touches on something that's incredibly powerful in the literature, which is called psychological separation. You are separating from your thoughts. It's also called cognitive diffusion, recognizing that you don't have to believe everything you think. And by having these names, you almost personify these voices, which then helps you create the separation. So, okay, here's what's very, very interesting. When we were researching, we interviewed about 200 people to understand the nature of the voice that they hear. And so what we found is that there's not just one voice. There's not just one overarching inner critic.

• 5:24Jefferson Fisher?

  Like, inner voice?

• 5:25Speaker 02

  Yes. There were actually four different archetypes. Four different personas that this voice would take on. There was like a Travis, a Greg, a Sarah, and a Samantha, right? And so I wanted to understand, well, what are these profiles? What are these archetypes that people are hearing? So let me take you through them, and then you can tell me which one Travis was.

• 5:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, I'm excited.

• 5:41Speaker 02

  And which one was a Greg?

• 5:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, I'm telling them.

• 5:44Speaker 02

  So the first voice that we identified is, we call it the classic judge. It's the default voice that just judges you, no matter what you did, what you didn't do, what you should have done. So this is, you know, if you're not sure which voice you have, it's generally going to be your classic judge.

• 5:57Jefferson Fisher?

  This is the, the judge is saying, "You should have done X."

• 6:00Speaker 02

  "Should have done X, or why didn't you do Y, or, you know, you're worthless." It's just the constant voice.

• 6:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Whatever choice you made is not the right one.

• 6:06Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 6:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 6:08Speaker 02

  Classic judge. The second one, we call it the misguided protector. Now, the role of the misguided protector is to keep you safe. To keep you safe from the risk of failure, from judgment, from criticism. And how it does that is by magnifying everything that could go wrong. Oh no, there's too much risk. Oh no, this might happen, but that might happen. They might say this. And then naturally, your response to that is to not take action and stay safe.

• 6:34Jefferson Fisher?

  In other words, this protector is looking at the things that could cause us harm more than the things that could bring us success.

• 6:43Speaker 02

  100%. That's its primary function. Magnify everything that could go horrendously wrong and blow it out of proportion. And then it succeeds when you do not take the step.

• 6:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 6:55Speaker 02

  You're safe, but you're stuck. You're stagnant. So that's the misguided protector. And that's what, it's very interesting. We find that a lot of people who are high potential, but hold themselves back, they do that because they experience what's called the shrinking syndrome. So when they're about to step into something incredible, or an opportunity arises, and they're so ready for it in terms of objective capability and skill, they make an excuse as to why it's not the right time, or why they want to prepare a little bit more. They shrink themselves because the misguided protector is working overtime, saying, oh no, but if you get that, if you say yes to that, this might happen. You might fail. You might this, you might that.

• 7:37Jefferson Fisher?

  The person who can't jump.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Exactly. So they're constantly hesitating. That's the second misguided protector. So we have classic judge, misguided protector. Let's go to the third, which is what we call the ringmaster. Now, I'm going to guess, Jefferson, that you resonate with this. I'm going to guess that a lot of highly driven people resonate with a very loud ringmaster.

• 7:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Or just being in a circus.

• 8:00Speaker 02

  Being in a circus, well. So the idea of a ringmaster, I always envisage it as having like the whip, right? And it's wanting the troop to drive faster and drive. So the role of the ringmaster, or the voice of the ringmaster, is the one that says, you haven't done enough. You must keep pushing. You must keep moving. You don't deserve to take a break. And it is that voice that, when you achieve something.

• 8:26Speaker 02

  You feel satisfied maybe for a moment, but then before you know it, you're instantly thinking, okay, well, I don't feel like I'm enough yet. What's the next big goal?

• 8:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 8:33Speaker 02

  That's driven by the ringmaster. So nothing you do satisfies it.

• 8:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 8:37Speaker 02

  Does that resonate? Maybe we can debrief on that later. And then, so that's our third. The fourth is what we call the neglector. The neglector is the voice that is really common in anyone who is in a caring type role. Or anyone who is highly, you know, has a high degree of empathy. It's that voice that makes you feel like you must neglect yourself because everyone else is more important.

• 9:00Jefferson Fisher?

  That the people pleasing type of-

• 9:01Speaker 02

  The people pleasing, the codependency, the deprioritizing your wants and needs. So long as everyone else is happy, then I guess I'm acceptable.

• 9:11Jefferson Fisher?

  That's where it's like, I'm not good unless you're good.

• 9:14Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 9:14Jefferson Fisher?

  I'm not valuable unless you're valuable.

• 9:16Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 9:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Kind of thing.

• 9:17Speaker 02

  And what it leads people to do is sacrifice their opinions, sacrifice what they truly want. Because again, if the people around them are happy, which means them often not doing and saying what they want or need, then they're keeping the peace. But then deep down, we know that that leads to this constant feeling of emptiness. And who am I? And am I even of value? And then we hear, I'm not enough.

• 9:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 9:42Speaker 02

  I'm not worthy. So these are the four most common archetypes. Now, there is actually a fifth that I took out of the book because no one can really, well, very few people self identify with this one. And those who do have a high degree of self-awareness. And so I'm going to share it in case anyone listening or watching has that level of self-awareness and says, you know what? That's me. We call it the victimizer. This is that inner voice that leads you to blame other people, to constantly complain, to feel like life is so difficult for you and everyone else has it easier. And it's the why me voice.

• 10:18Jefferson Fisher?

  That's an exhausting voice.

• 10:19Speaker 02

  It's an exhausting voice, not only for you, but for the people around you.

• 10:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 10:23Speaker 02

  And then we don't realize that it keeps us stuck because when, interestingly, when we're in that state of why me, what we see when we're looking at brain scans is increased activity in the threat detection centers in the brain. So you're more aware of everything that could go wrong and what has gone wrong. And again, you're just feeding this because you're ruminating on it. And then when you complain, people also don't realize that when they complain, they are reliving a negative situation in vivid detail, which then activates the same parts of the brain, which then gears you towards negativity. Complaining makes you more likely to become a negativity magnet.

• 11:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we get going, I want to take a moment to tell you about Cozy Earth. Now, coming up is Mother's Day. That's a big deal for y'all. And if you might be somebody who might still be looking for a Mother's Day present, let me, help me help you. All right. And that is this pajama set. It's made out of bamboo. It's super soft. It's a two-piece set. And I can vouch for it because my mother, my mama loves it. So much so that she texted me the other day, hey, any chance they're running a sale on Mother's Day? Or do you have another discount code? I'm going to make sure she's going to get another pair. But I need to highlight for you, the fact that she asked for another set of the same thing

• 11:44Jefferson Fisher?

  is all you need to know about these Cozy Earth pajamas. So if you're looking for somebody in your life, a mother perhaps, or a loved one who loves pajamas, go to cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson, and get up to 20% off. And get ready for somebody else to text you in a year later, asking for the very same pajamas. cozyearth.com/jefferson, use the code Jefferson for up to 20% off. Now, let's keep going. What I'm learning is it's easy to, in your mind, just start doubting yourself. And just say, well, I'm, I have all this doubt. But what the research shows is that doubt, self-doubt, is actually comprised

• 12:28Jefferson Fisher?

  of certain types of personalities. And on a given day, at a baseline, there's a place where all of this is relatively okay and healthy. It's where one of them kind of gets out of sync. And you have too much of one, and that's the one you're listening to. And then all the rest, it just feels like a jumble. Am I following?

• 12:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 12:49Jefferson Fisher?

  And do you find that when we're talking about self-doubt in particular? Because

• 12:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Obviously, I like talking about communication and the people listening are probably people talking about communication. Self doubt for me always hits not before the conversation, but after the conversation. Because I can be so controlled of going into a conversation and I have it with somebody. Maybe it's just that little interaction. Maybe it's a stranger who just sat by me and I kind of tried to stir up a little bit of small talk, say hi, and they're not into it. And then what happens? Like, I just start attacking myself of, you should have said this, why'd you say that?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Classic.

• 13:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, exactly. And the person who is feeling like they overspoke, like they said too much. And so, all of that is comprised in this, this self doubt. Why do you think it happens more so after a conversation, like looking back at it than sometimes ahead of it?

• 13:51Speaker 02

  It's because when we look at how self doubt is structured. So, we often think it's just this one big blob of worry and insecurity and fear, but we can actually tease it apart into four distinct areas. And once we know which area is at play, it helps us understand why we get stuck in that after we've had a conversation. And it's obviously, it's a conversation, but it's any time you've done something, you've taken an action. We then get stuck in that rumination. Let me take you through what the four dimensions of self doubt are, and then we can look at what each of them would be saying to you after a conversation.

• 14:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  Okay, so the very first one relates to, so actually, you touched on something interesting. You said personality. What we know, looking at the research, is that self doubt is actually linked to your personality. We never understood this before. It's linked to your personality because it's entirely about how you see yourself, how you see yourself, your self image. And self image, when we look at a lot of the self image research, there are four distinct personality traits that combine to create how we see ourselves. Which is, wow, there's a whole science behind this. It's not just some fluffy feel-good concept. So, what our research looked to do is, okay, we've got those four personality traits. What are the parts of that that we can train and strengthen in ourselves?

• 15:10Speaker 02

  Because what's fascinating is that you can actually change your personality.

• 15:13Jefferson Fisher?

  My own personality.

• 15:14Speaker 02

  Yeah. A lot of people think, I mean, let me ask you this. Would you think that your personality is just how it is? It's how it's always been. It was developed in the earliest years of your life and that's just who you are?

• 15:25Jefferson Fisher?

  I feel like there is a core. There's a nucleus. There's like a center. I can't believe I used the word nucleus. There is like, there is a center of what sprouts everything else. So there's like a seed of who am I? What's my personality? What separates me? What separates my tree from the other person's tree? Like, they're not going to grow the same. But I do know that there's things in life that happen that affects how I grow. Like, I think of, like, we're in a place where there's lots of woods. If you have two trees growing together next to each other, they'll often like wrap around each other and continue to grow, or they'll wrap around a branch.

• 16:10Jefferson Fisher?

  It's when you come in contact with something else, it affects how you grow. So I definitely agree that your personality, you have this baseline identity. But I know in my life, my personality certainly changed. Like, I'm not the same before I was a dad and after I was a dad. You know, you have dad feels. Like, I cry at every movie. I never used to do that until I had kids.

• 16:33Speaker 02

  So you're touching on something so poignant and so perfect here. For so long, people thought that we are just who we are. Right? Personality is stable. And we would hear this response from people. You've probably heard it too, like, "Well, that's just who I am."

• 16:47Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 16:48Speaker 02

  "I can't change. That's just who I am." And it's a terrible excuse for people to use because it denies that we can fundamentally change. The brain can change. And what we know from personality research is that your personality can change in one of two ways. Either, as you said, there is this key life moment, becoming a parent. It could be a result of incredible trauma that you've experienced, where you have that moment and then you start, you know, your personality intertwines with that. But the other way is just by actively choosing to change a part of it. You actively choose to intervene.

• 17:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Acts of will.

• 17:20Speaker 02

  Acts of will, exactly. And so when we look at self doubt, literature and research and all of this space, we can see that, okay, self doubt is a reflection of how we see ourselves, which is related to our personality. And there are these four parts of our personality. We then wanted to say, okay, if any of us wanted to change our personality related to how we see ourselves, what's the trainable part of that? And so we refer to it as the four As of self trust, which is the ultimate state we want to get to, trusting ourselves more than listening to that doubt.

• 17:52Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, so we've spoke about the four elements and type of personalities of self doubt. Now you're taking us to the four, like mirror versions of that, of what we'd want for self trust. That's where we want to be.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  Almost.

• 18:07Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 18:07Speaker 02

  So the four voices, in fact, we didn't determine which one was Travis and Greg.

• 18:12Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, that's true.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  We can come back to that. Another episode, episode part two. So those four voices actually relate to the first attribute of doubt.

• 18:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 18:21Speaker 02

  So I mentioned five voices. Remember, the last one was the victimizer. But just, we just look at the first four. They relate to the first attribute of, we call it self doubt or self trust, because when that attribute is strong, that's when you have more self trust. When it's weak, you have more self doubt.

• 18:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 18:36Speaker 02

  This first attribute is the attribute of acceptance.

• 18:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Accepting me.

• 18:39Speaker 02

  Self acceptance, accepting you. And that reflects, or that is the trainable part of self esteem. Your self esteem reflects to what extent you accept yourself as a worthy human being.

• 18:52Jefferson Fisher?

  I want to go, I want to pause that. So how would you define self esteem?

• 18:59Speaker 02

  Self esteem is a personality trait that fundamentally relates to the esteem in which you hold yourself. What does that mean? Do you see yourself as valuable, of value, worthy, despite learning and being messy and being imperfect? Do you fundamentally see yourself as worthy? A big part of it is worthiness.

• 19:21Jefferson Fisher?

  So for people who go, I don't know if I have self esteem, what they're really saying is, I don't know if I have value. I don't, I question whether or not I have value.

• 19:30Speaker 02

  And a good question to ask themselves to assess that is, Who are you outside of your titles and your achievements?

• 19:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 19:39Speaker 02

  And the validation of other people? How do you fundamentally see yourself? You strip all of that away.

• 19:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Who am I if I, if I am not in this occupation? Who am I if I'm not a mom or a dad? Who am I if I'm not married? Who am I if I'm single? Who, like, it's the who am I if I'm not in the present? I, I find that that is, that's hard for a lot of people, me included. Because it's, it, it comes and goes. There's times where, like, we've spoken about in this weird, weird world. You've, you and I have been friends for, what, close to two years?

• 20:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. Of, it's easy to kind of get in your head and it becomes almost a, like a bad virus.

• 20:25Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 20:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Where you feel like, I gotta take, I gotta do something. I, I need a happy pill somehow to be able to get myself into this place. And what you're telling me is, one of the best things you can do is get into this mindset of acceptance. Where instead of here, it's, it's here. You know, being able to accept the present moment.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  And the next question would be, well, how do you do that? How do you accept yourself more? And so I go through, of course, I go through more of the detail in the book, but I want to just give a top line for everyone listening and read and watching. So that if you resonate with this, you have something to take. When we look at how to fundamentally accept yourself, there are lots of little techniques and strategies, but I think it really comes down to something very counterintuitive, which is forgetting yourself. What does that mean?

• 21:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, tell me more.

• 21:20Speaker 02

  That means forgetting that voice of ego, forgetting that I, me, my, how do people see me? How am I coming across? And actually finding little ways in your life to be of service to others. In there are ways we can do this in every single environment, in every single interaction with our parents, with our kids, with our friends, with the barista at the coffee shop. It's how do I just be here for that person? The moment you ask yourself that, you're shifting your attention away from you and onto someone else. And that in itself, by being of value, that's actually how we discover our true value, because we're living it. We're not trying to prove anything to anybody.

• 22:02Speaker 02

  We're quietening that voice that is trying to get us to be selfish and to focus on, because one way to think about it is when you are so hyper-focused on how do people see me, it's an extremely selfish perspective. Because you are just looking at it from the I, me, my ego world.

• 22:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 22:20Speaker 02

  But when you flip into how can I be of value to this person? How can I give them what they need right now? You get out of that incessant rumination of the I, me, my, and then you move into this realm of self-acceptance, because you're no longer thinking about how to prove that you're acceptable.

• 22:36Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 22:36Speaker 02

  You're just living it.

• 22:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Man, you had my mind, I almost, I kind of looked off for a second, because I was thinking of like, all the different times that even though you try and intentionally be, there's still so many moments and opportunities where I could have been other-centered, like to be more service-oriented to the other person. And I think about it always in terms of conversation. But sometimes it's the small little acts that aren't even really conversation, they might just be like a hello. Like, I've noticed you do this, you had dinner with me and my family the other night, and you like to know everybody's name. I also think that's just some of your personality.

• 23:20Speaker 02

  Maybe.

• 23:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah. But that's, that's a way of telling somebody, hey, I see you, I recognize you, I know you're not just generic waiter or waitress, you, you are their name. And I think that's one way of.

• 23:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Like you said, forgetting yourself. When I am able to be more concerned about the other person, that's in some way forgetting yourself. Do you resonate with that?

• 23:52Speaker 02

  Yes, 100%. It's just in that moment, how can I actively get out of my head and just be here for someone else? Whatever that is, asking what their name is, whether it's giving them a smile, making eye contact for a little bit longer, not checking your phone when something buzzes. These are just little things that you can start to train in you. And it helps you create that separation from that incessant need to get the validation from the people around you, to make you feel better about yourself. Because if you can be that person that makes other people feel valued, the whole game changes. The whole game changes. So that's a really beautiful... We call that one of the gifts. So for each of these four attributes, we have a gift, which is more of an overarching perspective shifting. We call them more spiritual idea.

• 24:37Speaker 02

  But it's just about something bigger picture.

• 24:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 24:41Speaker 02

  So that's our kind of the antidote for self-acceptance, if you struggle with it. But let's look at this from the context of conversations.

• 24:49Jefferson Fisher?

  All right.

• 24:50Speaker 02

  If someone doesn't accept themselves, when they're interacting with, let's say, a loved one, that's when they become hyper attuned to, is this person okay with me? Did I say something wrong? I've noticed a slight shift in their energy right now. Is that because of me? And so everything becomes personalized. We take everything personally. I say "we" because I am one of these people who struggle with self-acceptance. And so I'm constantly internalizing things that are not mine to be internalized. And that level of heightened awareness can also lead us to create the very things that we fear. We suddenly become a little clingy or a little overly concerned, and then that can push people away, when actually it was just they were going through something challenging that day

• 25:35Speaker 02

  or their mind was elsewhere. And yet we're taking it as if it's us.

• 25:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Taking it personal.

• 25:39Speaker 02

  Exactly, personal. And I saw this in someone recently, a really good friend of mine. She was texting a friend and then didn't hear back from that friend. She saw the friend Reddit, but didn't hear back from that friend for a few hours. And then she was debriefing with me and talking about how that friend clearly doesn't care about her and she's got other priorities. When we figured out what was going on, the friend's phone had just run out of battery.

• 26:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 26:03Speaker 02

  Wasn't able to respond.

• 26:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 26:05Speaker 02

  But of course, my other friend was going through all these internal stories, and that's what they are. They are internal stories that we tell about ourselves, depending on where we're struggling on these attributes.

• 26:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, there's so much that we could just even go into on how much we take things personally over text. Like, we read into other people's tone. And how much timing really does play a huge factor. If you don't reply immediately versus if you do. Like, people, if somebody's dating and somebody says something sweet, like, do you wait a moment? Because you don't want to be, like, too eager. But if you wait too long.

• 26:43Speaker 02

  Balls in their court, they need to contact me first.

• 26:44Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah, then you really don't care. Or, just like you were talking about with your friend, if, the worst is like, if you just see bubbles.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 26:53Jefferson Fisher?

  And it's just waiting, and then nothing, you're like, they must really be thinking about what they're going to say. What did I do? And then you're starting to.

• 27:00Speaker 02

  Internalize.

• 27:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, so this is all, this is all self-doubt, what we're talking about. And the antidote to this is what you're calling big trust. All right. What I want to know, what I want the listeners to hear is, what does self-doubt sound like? And then what does self-trust sound like?

• 27:24Speaker 02

  Well, let's look at it in the context of the first attribute.

• 27:26Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 27:27Speaker 02

  So the first attribute, if you have self-doubt related to your acceptance, it is, I am not enough. This is not often something that we would ever say out loud. This is more a deep belief that we would hold.

• 27:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Sure.

• 27:37Speaker 02

  Right? I'm not enough, or I'm not worthy, or... And then, you know, if we take that to the next level, it would be, my friends don't care about me. Or this person doesn't value me. And then that becomes an automatic switch, and we have a compulsive need to try and win back their approval and their affections.

• 27:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Or you go to the victim.

• 27:57Speaker 02

  Or you turn into the victim, if you struggle with the third attribute, which is autonomy, which we'll get to. So, it can sound in any number of ways, but it's generally, the voice of the first attribute is, I'm not enough, I'm not worthy. And that can manifest in. I don't want to be too much for people.

• 28:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, that's a good one. I like that.

• 28:14Speaker 02

  It's interesting because it's almost the inverse of that. It's I don't feel like I'm enough and therefore I don't want to be too much.

• 28:20Jefferson Fisher?

  I find that that's something that I see a lot of in my community or people that not only don't feel like they're enough, they feel like they're too much.

• 28:31Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 28:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Too much for other people, too much, I'm too much of a burden on others. And that too, I think, ultimately leads to that victim mindset. But tell me more of, you know, what do you, what do you say to the people who feel like they're too much?

• 28:46Speaker 02

  So the first thing is to acknowledge if you feel like you're too much, it's because you feel like you're not enough, deep down. So the, the reason why you feel like you're too much is because you fundamentally don't feel worthy of people's time, of taking up their energy, of their attention. And again, that is a reflection of a lack of self-acceptance. When you don't see yourself as worthy, you feel like other people don't. And then you feel like you're the constant burden. This can also lead people, remember that the fourth voice, which was the neglector.

• 29:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  This is where you hear that voice of you don't matter. Everyone else matters more than you. And so these people can often withdraw and not seek the help that they need, the support that they need, the friends that they need to share what's going on. In fact, quick little personal story. When I was in high school, my parents got divorced. And it was amicable and it was, you know, the best it could possibly be, given the circumstances. But I, because I struggled with acceptance, I didn't want to talk to anyone about it because I didn't want to burden them with my problems. And so I became very reclusive in terms of sharing anything personal with anybody, to the point that by the time I got to work,

• 29:59Speaker 02

  I had a friend who I'd, you know, we'd been friends for a few years. She broke up with me, broke up with me as a friend, saying, I feel like I know nothing about you.

• 30:10Speaker 02

  So I don't feel like this is a friendship and it's because I had learned not to burden people because I never felt like I was worthy of burdening them with my problems. And so I was just internalizing it all.

• 30:20Jefferson Fisher?

  You'd be too much.

• 30:21Speaker 02

  Completely too much, not healthy. That was not healthy at all. The essence of connection is two-way. It's this like mutual disclosure. You share, I share, we support each other. So that was an interesting learning for me and that's a very real risk for anyone who struggles with acceptance.

• 30:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we keep going, this is a quick ad from Zocdoc. I don't know about you, but whenever you are generally in a new place, or maybe you switch to a new job and you get a new health insurance, there's a whole thing of what doctor is going to be taking that insurance? Where should you go? Zocdoc is the place to make all of that easy. So if you're looking for a place like, I need a new dentist, I need a new dermatologist, and you have that appointment that you should have done a long time ago, Zocdoc is not only going to help you find them, make sure that they're covered, they will actually help you also, yes, book an appointment. It is a free app and website that helps you find and book high-quality in-network doctors so you can find someone you love. They have

• 31:15Jefferson Fisher?

  more than 150,000 providers across all 50 states. I've used Zocdoc because they actually will book stuff for you and I need that. So it's not just, well, they find something in-network, they will actually book it. And that's, to me, totally worth it. Stop putting off those doctor's appointments and go to zocdoc.com/jefferson to find and instantly book a doctor you love today. That's Z O C D O C dot com slash Jefferson, zocdoc.com slash Jefferson. Let's keep going.

• 31:47Speaker 02

  So the thing that you need to start with, if you struggle with acceptance, is acknowledge that this is a very deeply held belief that you have that is reflecting a personality trait, but you can change it. And it starts with very, very small actions that reaffirm that you are of value. What does that look like?

• 32:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Speaker 02

  Rather than holding back in the meeting because you're afraid that what you're going to say is not going to sound perfect, just say it. Or, okay.

• 32:13Jefferson Fisher?

  It's scary for people.

• 32:14Speaker 02

  Sorry, it's so hard for people. So then if saying it is too hard, pre-prepare something that you can say instead. In the back of your notebook or on your laptop, write a few questions that you can throw in at any time that you have read before. You've prepared them. That way you don't have to think on the spot of what you're going to say and how you're going to construct a sentence.

• 32:34Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 32:35Speaker 02

  It's written. And another tip, we know from research that there is something called the primacy and the recency effects. So if you're in a meeting situation, if you say something near the beginning and then something again near the end, people are more likely to remember what you said and remember you contributing more than you actually did.

• 32:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, that's, I definitely know that to be, that's something that we talk about in litigation.

• 32:59Speaker 02

  There you go.

• 32:59Jefferson Fisher?

  In trial, that juries will often remember the first thing that happened and the very last thing that happened. And everything in the middle, they kind of black out too.

• 33:08Speaker 02

  It happens, human nature.

• 33:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it's easy, it's easy to kind of just get that jumble. But they'll remember what they call the opening argument, what your first few sentences are. And then they'll remember the very end, what those last few lines are. Everything else.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  It like puts so much pressure.

• 33:23Jefferson Fisher?

  It really does. It can make, make a really big difference. But they'll remember the very first thing, the very last thing. So same, same thing in your questioning too, I think. I think that's wonderful advice of people who feel like saying, speaking up in a meeting is too much or would be too scary for them. Have written down already the comment that you want to make, even if it's just one sentence or even if it's just one question. Because one way to lower that barrier is to eliminate the variables, eliminate the things you can't control. And so to be able to offer that, I think is what a great way to, towards finding.

• 34:03Jefferson Fisher?

  Is it acceptance or is it something else?

• 34:05Speaker 02

  So what you would be doing here is giving yourself proof points.

• 34:09Jefferson Fisher?

  Proof points.

• 34:10Speaker 02

  That you don't have to be perfect or have it all figured out in order to contribute.

• 34:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:15Speaker 02

  And when you see yourself doing that, it starts to slowly, it takes time. You have to be doing this consistently over time, but you start to slowly shift how you see yourself, your self-image. And then that allows you, once you get comfortable with that, you take the next step, which is okay. So I'm comfortable with saying something at the beginning and the end. I'm going to construct a question in the middle or share an idea, a short one. Let me see how that goes. You use it as like a little experiment.

• 34:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 34:42Speaker 02

  And then you do it and then you reflect afterwards and you think, so what you might do, if you struggle with acceptance, is get stuck in that rumination. Oh, I should have said this, I should have done it like this. And if you don't do anything to actively quieten that voice, it will just keep going and you will wake up at 2am with it on repeat.

• 34:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 34:58Speaker 02

  So what you say is, okay, what did I learn from that? And what will I do differently next time? It's super simple. It's called a post-mortem in the project management world. You look at what happened and then you just essentially develop a plan to make sure that whatever went wrong doesn't go wrong again in the future. And you're continually gearing yourself towards learning and growth.

• 35:18Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's going towards the acts of will that we talked about instead of staying in the self-doubt zones. I want to talk real quick on the benefit of detachment of these personalities, these voices. So let's say voices and personalities are the same thing, represent the same thing. It's detaching the feeling from me, from Jefferson. So I experienced that a lot personally with anxiety. Anxiety hit me probably two, three years ago for the very first time, like out of nowhere, scared me to death, had no clue and I couldn't stop it.

• 35:59Jefferson Fisher?

  And over time, what I've been able to do, what's helped me overcome it is I have a name for my anxiety and I have a face to it like this. The anxiety of Jefferson just looks super nerdy, nerdier than I do. All right, so like I'm talking broken glasses, crazy hair, clothes are shovelled. And it's like, if I can picture him talking in a voice of like, but you need to do, you don't, and he's starting to have that, that feeling, that sound of anxiety. It helps me to be like, I appreciate that. I hear you. Let me hear from somebody else.

• 36:34Speaker 02

  Brilliant.

• 36:35Jefferson Fisher?

  And so as long as I, or I might be like, thank you for your time. I need you to step out of, of the room for a second.

• 36:41Speaker 02

  Go take a vacation.

• 36:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, let's close the door for a second and be like, okay. But that has helped me a lot in terms of what does it really mean to detach from, I am not anxious, I just feel that in this moment. Do you find that when you speak to these leaders, because I know you really focus a lot on executive leadership and you speak to thousands of people all over the world, that this detachment is really a big unlock for a lot of people?

• 37:10Speaker 02

  The biggest unlock. It's called psychological separation. And so what you do is actually so perfect because there is a very simple strategy. And it starts with acknowledging when any of these voices, when you hear them, which requires something called metacognition, which is becoming curious about your thinking. When you are not curious about your thinking, you feel like you are your thoughts and you're not able to separate.

• 37:35Jefferson Fisher?

  That's a good word. You are your thoughts.

• 37:37Speaker 02

  You are your thoughts. And so, and that's when these voices become us. So it's not, oh, I'm hearing the anxiety. It's, I am the anxiety and it feels very fixed.

• 37:45Jefferson Fisher?

  That was terrible.

• 37:46Speaker 02

  It's the worst.

• 37:47Jefferson Fisher?

  And then it just becomes a loop.

• 37:49Speaker 02

  Completely. So what you can do in those moments, and you actually touched on it beautifully, is to recognize that these voices are actually designed to try and protect us from something.

• 37:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 37:59Speaker 02

  And so if you can just say, hey, thanks, I hear you. So we would encourage people to use the voices or to, to recognize which of the voices is driving it. So anxiety, if it's related to, I haven't done enough, I need to do more, that's the voice of the ringmaster. So you would say, hey, ringmaster, thanks, I appreciate what you're doing. But no, thanks. Like, I don't need you right now.

• 38:20Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:20Speaker 02

  So you're acknowledging and then consciously saying, I don't need that, which creates a little bit of separation. We like to use the analogy of, imagine you have a bat and that voice, that ringmaster's voice is coming towards you like the ball.

• 38:34Speaker 02

  You basically say, thanks, but no thanks, and you whack the ball away.

• 38:37Jefferson Fisher?

  Just smack it.

• 38:37Speaker 02

  Smack it away, right? You see it go in the distance. The idea behind this is that you're creating some kind of a visual that reminds you, hey, you don't have to accept everything.

• 38:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 38:46Speaker 02

  Now, that can be helpful in the moment. The other thing you need to do in the moment, though, is called positive distraction. So I, let me give you an example. I had an experience kind of recently where something happened and I kept ruminating about it and it would happen whenever I was out walking because I sometimes try not to take any headphones and I just like to be present.

• 39:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 39:05Speaker 02

  And then, of course, all the voices come in. And I kept ruminating about this thing and I literally said to it, nope, classic judge, not today. Nope, not today. And I kept repeating that. And then I had to shift to something more productive. So they say distraction, you know, distraction is terrible. You should process all your thoughts when they come. No, according to the research, if you try and process everything as it happens, it can just feel overwhelming because you're in the heat of that emotional moment. Sometimes a positive distraction is, I'm going to call a friend. I'm going to put on a song that really gets my energy up. You can take an action in that moment to just shift your state and then you come back to it later. I want to share two very, very quick tools here for anyone listening who's saying, oh, this is me.

• 39:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 39:47Speaker 02

  The first one is if you tend to worry a lot and overthink a lot,

• 39:52Speaker 02

  there is a fantastic research-based strategy called stimulus control for worry. What does that mean? When that worry thought, that rumination, that overthinking pops up during the day, write it down. Have a notebook and a pen or put it in your phone. Just capture the thought. This in itself has been shown to reduce the intensity of the emotion because you're giving it some kind of an outlet.

• 40:14Jefferson Fisher?

  Write down the worry?

• 40:15Speaker 02

  You write down the worry.

• 40:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 40:17Speaker 02

  You actually write it down. So it could be, I'm going to mess up my presentation tomorrow. I'm going to mess up the interview. My husband or wife is going to this or that, whatever it is.

• 40:28Jefferson Fisher?

  The podcast is going to be terrible.

• 40:29Speaker 02

  The podcast is going to be terrible. Like you write it down. And then you say, okay, I've got it captured. I'm going to worry about you during worry time. This is the second piece. Every day you set yourself maybe 10 minutes of worry time. You put it in your calendar, just not too close to bed because it might affect your sleep. You put it in your calendar. When that time comes, you set an alarm for say 10 minutes. You pull out your worry list and you allow yourself to worry. What research has shown is that it reduces the intensity of the worry. It shrinks the fear to size and the emotional intensity of trying to worry about something after you've already written it down, you just can't get back to where it was, which is great because you realize how many of your worries are just that.

• 41:12Speaker 02

  They are just worries that are never going to actually come true.

• 41:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 41:15Speaker 02

  Unless you allow yourself to worry about them and then you almost bring them into existence because you become like a self fulfilling prophecy.

• 41:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Right. Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of my dad. He, um, my dad is not a worrier. Now, when he does worry, everybody in the house knows it, you know? But he's just not, he's just not a worrier. And I kind of took a lot of that personality where I would, you know, we would come up to him with something and he would be like, well, nothing I can do about it. Can, can you do anything about it right now? And I'd say, no. He'd say, well, okay, well, that's an issue for another day. And so I think that is an excellent idea that I've never considered before, and that is schedule your worry time, especially for the things that you can't control right now.

• 42:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Just why, why allow that to take up all of your calendar or at least be the layer or the film that all of life sits on, that you just, you're living on this lava bed of worry all the time.

• 42:15Speaker 02

  Lava bed. What a great analogy.

• 42:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, actually the science research suggests we call that the lava bed of worry.

• 42:22Jefferson Fisher?

  And to be able to just say, actually, no, I'm going to write all this down. I'll see you later. 1pm, Central Standard Time.

• 42:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, I get to worry about as much as I want right now, then when time's up, go on about life.

• 42:38Speaker 02

  It's remarkable.

• 42:39Jefferson Fisher?

  That really is healthy, I think.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  It's healthy. You know, I think we live in a world of hyper optimization. Get better, be better, eat better, sleep better, worry less. And yes, there's a time and place for everything, but sometimes trying to avoid

• 42:51Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 42:52Speaker 02

  the thing is not actually the best approach. It's giving it a structure.

• 42:56Jefferson Fisher?

  Worry better.

• 42:57Speaker 02

  Worry better. Yeah, that's true. Gosh, you don't want to add more pressure there.

• 43:00Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 02

  But so that's really effective for anyone who tends to worry a lot. And you can do these with these voices, these personalities, these archetypes. What am I hearing? So you go, you can write it down. You say, okay, not right now. Thanks, but no thanks. The next stage would be at the end of the week, you look at your list and you say, which of these actually came true? Which ones were things that I was legitimately worrying about? And then they became reality and you'll find something like 97% of them don't come true. And even the ones that do come true, it was not as bad as you thought at all.

• 43:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Before we continue, I want to take a moment to tell you about Dose. Now, one thing that sneaks up on a lot of people in your life, including myself, is cholesterol. Cholesterol is one of those things where we always want to target and we always want to lower it, but it's, it's hard and how do you do it? Often it's not just your everyday diet and exercise. It's also supplements that you take. Well, Dose is something that I've been using now for probably about three months. And I love it. It's clinically backed, proven cholesterol supplement. And what it does, it targets triglycerides, LDL, HDL, and total cholesterol levels. And I really, as you know, I only like to talk about things, especially if it's some kind of supplement that I take.

• 44:10Jefferson Fisher?

  And it's all been great for us to lower my cholesterol level. And it tastes really great. And the cool thing about it is it's simple. All you have to do is take like a two ounce, just liquid form of it. And it tastes like mango. It has some ginger in it. And it's, it's easy. I actually look forward to after I finish a meal, take a little bit of it and it's there to support lower cholesterol levels. So if there's somebody in your life that struggles with cholesterol levels and worries about it, is concerned about it. Dose for cholesterol is something that I really do support because it not only tastes good, I know that it's good for me. So if you want to take a more active role in your cholesterol levels, you can go to dosedaily.co/jefferson or use code Jefferson for up to 35%

• 44:53Jefferson Fisher?

  off your first month subscription. That's dosedaily.co.co/jefferson. And now, let's keep going. I want everybody to know, you have in your book, Big Trust, which is fantastic, is you have this quiz that you can take.

• 45:09Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 45:10Jefferson Fisher?

  I took your quiz.

• 45:11Speaker 02

  You did.

• 45:11Jefferson Fisher?

  I did. I took your quiz and I sent it to you after dinner. I'm gonna pull it.

• 45:19Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 45:19Speaker 02

  Oh, you actually printed it.

• 45:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Say what?

• 45:21Speaker 02

  You actually printed it.

• 45:22Jefferson Fisher?

  I actually, believe it or not, I printed it in color.

• 45:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, the colors are all off, though.

• 45:28Jefferson Fisher?

  Hey, listen.

• 45:29Speaker 02

  Hey, this is impressive.

• 45:30Jefferson Fisher?

  This is, this is about.

• 45:31Speaker 02

  This is great. So what you've completed is your doubt profile, the doubt profile assessment. So you know how earlier I was talking about, there are these four drivers of self doubt?

• 45:40Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 45:41Speaker 02

  And there are different attributes that we can strengthen. And when they're weak, that's when self doubt creeps in.

• 45:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 45:45Speaker 02

  So far, we've talked about the first attribute, which is acceptance.

• 45:49Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, I'm with you, on the big trust side.

• 45:50Speaker 02

  This is on the big trust side. So when acceptance is low, that's when self doubt sneaks in, related to that attribute.

• 45:57Jefferson Fisher?

  Makes sense.

• 45:57Speaker 02

  But then we have three others, which we will get to in more detail, but I'll quickly share what they are.

• 46:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes.

• 46:02Speaker 02

  And actually, let me share what this quiz gives you. So if anyone listening or watching wants to find out how much doubt you experience in your life, and what is driving that doubt, based on which of these four attributes is weak, you can do this quiz. It's completely free. It's at doubtprofile.com. It takes about three minutes. I mean, how long did it take you to complete?

• 46:22Jefferson Fisher?

  It took me 30 seconds.

• 46:23Speaker 02

  30 seconds.

• 46:23Jefferson Fisher?

  If that. And to me, what, what that does is, because everybody doubts, the importance of that to me, what, how I found it insightful, and I know we'll talk about it, is it tells you where the doubt is coming from.

• 46:35Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 46:35Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's, that's, that's critical.

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Completely. Because if you don't know where it's coming from, you don't know what to do about it. And actually, what we find is so many people, because they have misinterpreted what their doubt is and where it's coming from, they're trying tools and strategies that are completely ineffective. For example, so we've talked about acceptance. If you struggle with acceptance, positive affirmations like I am enough, I am worthy, they backfire.

• 47:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh.

• 47:03Speaker 02

  Research shows that people who struggle with acceptance, which means lower self-esteem, when they use these positive affirmations, it makes them feel worse.

• 47:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, really?

• 47:11Speaker 02

  And yet, we're taught that, no, these are fantastic, research-based tools. Unless you know which one is driving the doubt, you might then unintentionally be doing things that make you feel even worse.

• 47:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 47:23Speaker 02

  So that's something to be aware of. The first one, as we've covered, is acceptance.

• 47:27Jefferson Fisher?

  Mm-hmm.

• 47:28Speaker 02

  Let's move to the next three quickly, and then we're gonna help Jefferson diagnose what his doubt profile looks like.

• 47:33Jefferson Fisher?

  Yes, please, I need lots of help.

• 47:34Speaker 02

  So, for anyone who does this online, you will get a printout of your four attributes, where they're weak, where they're strong, and then you also get a report that shows you what they look like, what they sound like.

• 47:45Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, it was interesting.

• 47:45Speaker 02

  Yeah, it's great, good stuff in there.

• 47:47Jefferson Fisher?

  It's good stuff, PhD.

• 47:49Speaker 02

  Oh, and this is actually based on a psychometrically validated tool, which is great, too.

• 47:53Jefferson Fisher?

  That's the kind of words I use all the time, yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 02

  So, someone else did the research, and then we tweaked it so that it applies to doubt.

• 47:58Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 47:58Speaker 02

  So, acceptance is your first one, that's when you don't feel like you're enough.

• 48:01Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 48:01Speaker 02

  The second element of self-doubt relates specifically to the question of, can I do it? Can I actually do this thing? So, it's this view of, do I have the skills and the capability?

• 48:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Capability.

• 48:14Speaker 02

  To, to do the thing. Now, in the context of conversations, this is really interesting, because there are some people who also, in addition to maybe not feeling like they're enough, they doubt whether they have the words to coherently speak up in a meeting. Or people, a lot of people who are non-native English speakers, who have an accent, they struggle with their agency, because they feel like people don't understand them.

• 48:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 48:40Speaker 02

  Uh, you might have people who avoid addressing a conflict with their loved one at home, they don't wanna bring it up, because they don't feel like they have the words to deal with it, they don't have, we call this agency, they don't have agency in relation to addressing a conflict.

• 48:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 48:54Speaker 02

  And it's purely because of that doubt, that they then let things fester and not take action, and then things get worse.

• 48:59Jefferson Fisher?

  And that's the second one.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  And that's the second one, which is agency. It's entirely related to, yeah, can I do this? Do I have the tools?

• 49:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Do I have the agency to do it?

• 49:07Speaker 02

  And even, can I learn how to do this?

• 49:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Hmm.

• 49:09Speaker 02

  That's part of it as well. So, that's the second one. The third driver is autonomy. This is where that fifth voice of self-criticism comes in, the victimizer.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  This is where we start to feel, why me? Why is life so difficult for me? They complain all the time, they're resentful, they're frustrated. They blame everything and everyone for their problems. That's the third, we call it autonomy. It's when you don't feel like you have control in your life, in your relationships.

• 49:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Everything's happening and you're left out.

• 49:41Speaker 02

  Exactly.

• 49:41Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 49:42Speaker 02

  And then the fourth relates to adaptability, which is specifically emotions. Can you get a handle on your emotions? Do you trust that you can navigate the emotions that come with life? Do you trust that, okay, if I have this conversation with my husband, my wife, my boyfriend, my girlfriend, and I'm raising something quite contentious here, or it could cause a conflict, do I trust that I'm going to be able to handle the emotions that will come with it? Or am I just going to shut down and cry in the corner of the room in the fetal position?

• 50:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 50:12Speaker 02

  That actually drives a form of self doubt. So these four attributes, and when they're, any of them are weak, that then tells us where is our self doubt coming from?

• 50:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 50:24Speaker 02

  Where is it being driven by? And then it gives us a roadmap in terms of, well, what do I need to do? Or how am I using others to compensate? And actually, that brings us to your doubt profile.

• 50:34Jefferson Fisher?

  This is where we learn where Jefferson's self doubt is.

• 50:37Speaker 02

  Yes, so let's actually explore Jefferson's doubt profile. So firstly, the first measure that we get is doubt in his life. And Jefferson's, so there's doubt heavy, which would be if you are really struggling with doubt. Situational, which is where it's kind of conditional, depending on who you're with and what you're doing. You actually fall in the big trust zone, which is what I would expect. Someone with your background, your caliber, what you've achieved, it's not hindering you.

• 51:02Jefferson Fisher?

  So I want to make sure, so what you're talking about is a spectrum.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Spectrum, yes.

• 51:06Jefferson Fisher?

  These four indicators help indicate the spectrum of things. So one is, let's say, a lot of doubt, and the other is big trust.

• 51:15Speaker 02

  Big trust.

• 51:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, so I'm at least in the big trust category.

• 51:18Speaker 02

  You're just in the big trust category. You're just there, you just made it.

• 51:22Jefferson Fisher?

  Which means?

• 51:22Speaker 02

  Which means, and this is where we need to then go a bit more granular and find out, well, let's look at each of these attributes within you and what is going on here. So your acceptance is in the hidden strength zone, which means it's not superpower zone. So superpower is where it's like the top that it could possibly be. Now, if anyone is at the top where it could possibly be, there's also a risk of excessive acceptance. What do you think happens when someone has excessive self-acceptance or excessive self-esteem? So it's no longer healthy. It's very, very, very strong, but it's not at healthy levels.

• 51:55Jefferson Fisher?

  Well, two ways I could see it go. So if somebody is, has, thinks everything they do is great, then they're probably, like, that should set some alarms that something's off.

• 52:08Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 52:09Jefferson Fisher?

  You know, I think you have to have a healthy amount of doubt.

• 52:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, because otherwise you become conceited.

• 52:13Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I am better than everybody else.

• 52:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Right.

• 52:16Speaker 02

  So we, you know, when anyone is at the superpower zone, we start to interrogate and understand. But you're in the hidden strength zone, which is great. So that's a healthy zone.

• 52:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank goodness.

• 52:26Speaker 02

  Your agency, which is the second one, which is the belief in, you know, can I actually do this thing?

• 52:32Jefferson Fisher?

  Did we talk about acceptance? Am I good on acceptance?

• 52:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, you're good on acceptance.

• 52:35Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay, great, okay.

• 52:36Speaker 02

  Yeah. You want to see your results as well as we go through them?

• 52:38Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 52:38Speaker 02

  So you're good, hidden strength.

• 52:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Good on hidden strength.

• 52:40Speaker 02

  Your agency is actually in the hindrance zone.

• 52:42Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, no.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  So that's one up from the very lowest, which is red alert.

• 52:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 52:47Speaker 02

  And what that means is that that's your weakest link. So that's your agency. The third one is autonomy. You are in the hidden strength.

• 52:53Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 52:54Speaker 02

  Which means you focus on what you can control. You feel personally powerful. You make things happen. And then the fourth one is adaptability, where with the exception of the anxiety that you had maybe been feeling.

• 53:05Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah.

• 53:05Speaker 02

  You generally feel like you have a handle on your emotional state. You can adapt to what comes your way, and you have a degree of trust around that.

• 53:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 53:12Speaker 02

  Okay. So then, looking at this as an archetype, your weak link is your agency.

• 53:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Agency.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  You compensate with your other three attributes, which means it hasn't really hindered you too much, but it is there and it's lingering. And so what this tells me, I mean, you probably need to tell me, but I'll tell you what I think.

• 53:29Jefferson Fisher?

  Doctors are right.

• 53:29Speaker 02

  And then you can, you can.

• 53:31Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, why don't you tell me? What's the diagnosis here? How bad is it?

• 53:34Speaker 02

  You might have a tendency, because of the nature of what you do and how you've gone through a full transition over the last five years, in terms of, you know, the people that you help and the visibility that you have, which is phenomenal and so well-deserved.

• 53:46Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you.

• 53:47Speaker 02

  You might find yourself comparing yourself to other people who have been doing this for a lot longer, who are maybe further ahead. And you feel like there's always things that you're missing out on that you should be doing, that they're doing, that you're not. And so there's this part of you that feels like you're never satisfied.

• 54:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Okay.

• 54:05Speaker 02

  Does that, does that seem?

• 54:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, that's, that's really spot on.

• 54:08Speaker 02

  And then potentially also not a fear, but an undercurrent of, am I really as good as everyone thinks that I am?

• 54:17Jefferson Fisher?

  Dang, shaw day, okay.

• 54:19Speaker 02

  It's just right coming from your results.

• 54:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Golly.

• 54:22Speaker 02

  So kudos to you for actually completing this with honesty.

• 54:25Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, well, I want people, I want my listeners to be able to see of, I don't have it figured out either.

• 54:33Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that's the beautiful thing. You don't have to have it all figured out. But what you do well is you detach from the thoughts and you take action anyway. But can you tell us a little bit about what that experience is like for you?

• 54:43Jefferson Fisher?

  Yeah, for sure. I'll take this. I, I, when I look at it, you know, my, where a lot of my doubt comes from is you, you hit it really right on the head. So I can definitely see the value of, of doing this quiz. Where does my doubt come from? I for sure have it from feeling like everybody else has it figured out and I don't. In this new creator, author, speaker, whatever this is, influencer, I don't know. And so I went to law school, right? I went to college, went to law school, have law firm. And I, that's what I thought I was gonna do. And then I just felt

• 55:24Jefferson Fisher?

  like now I'm in a totally different space somewhat. And it's like going to a new school. And you're the new kid. And you're still trying to figure out like what classroom to go in. And everybody else knows how to get there. And you're still trying to figure it out, you know? In the staircase move, you're, you're in Hogwarts. So it's like you're trying to figure out what's all going on. And so what do you do? You try and look at what everybody else is doing. And then you go, oh, that looks really cool. How did they do that? I don't know. And so I have, I think I have a lot of that comparison, that doubt that comes from there. But what helps me and what you've emphasized is coming back to that form of self-acceptance of, hey, you should be Jefferson. You should be yourself.

• 56:09Jefferson Fisher?

  That's really what you need to emphasize. And the other thing that you mentioned that is also spot on is feeling like, am I doing enough? And did I? Is it, do I deserve? Is it? Because in my mind, I'll never do enough to deserve. And so trying to talk to that voice, that voice can be pretty rough.

• 56:38Speaker 02

  Oh, that's a classic one for low agency. It's the imposter, the feeling of the imposter. Feeling like, and in fact, 82% of people have been found in some studies to feel that, to feel that I don't deserve where I am and I'll never do enough to deserve where I am. I like to see it as intellectual humility, which comes from Adam Grant. So Adam Grant talks about this a lot. How when we focus on, I mean, if you were to say, no, I deserve everything I've had. I mean, that would probably, yeah, that would be a problem, right? That would be excessive agency. So the fact that you have a degree of humility around recognizing that maybe there are other things that you could have done, or there are other people that could be where you are. So for anyone who is feeling this, anyone who feels a little bit like an imposter,

• 57:20Speaker 02

  what I encourage you all to do is to grab a piece of paper and split it up into three columns. In your left column, I love how you were like thinking about that, like visualizing.

• 57:30Jefferson Fisher?

  I was visualizing columns. I was like, okay, I have my paper. I'm visualizing in my head, writing it down.

• 57:34Speaker 02

  In the left column, I want you to write down, so Jefferson said, just be Jefferson, right? So that's the idea of what are your essence qualities? What are the things that you have developed over time? So I'm not talking about hard skills. I'm not talking about these tangible like coding and I'm talking about the qualities. I wish I could code.

• 57:53Jefferson Fisher?

  I can whittle sticks. That's about as good as I got.

• 57:56Speaker 02

  That's pretty good. So you write down your essence qualities, right? The grit, the persistence, the desire to be of service, the curiosity, the growth mindset. Write them all down. In your middle column, you want to write down, what are the things that you feel like you don't know how to do yet in your space? Whatever it could be. And then in your third column, you're basically matching up your essence qualities with the things you don't know how to do yet. When we focus on all the things that we don't know how to do and how we have gaps and we fixate there, it becomes a lot larger than it actually is because all we focus on is what we know how to do currently, what we don't know how to do, and then we feel like we can never do it. But when you remind yourself, hold on, I have these essence qualities that can help me

• 58:38Speaker 02

  learn, help me put things into practice, and help me actually fill the gaps that I see here, suddenly you realize that you don't have to have it all figured out. You just have to apply what you know, be Jefferson or be whoever you are, and then make a plan, and then take a step.

• 58:54Jefferson Fisher?

  So for the person listening right now, and the person feels like everybody else has it figured out, and I don't, what do you, what do you say to them?

• 59:03Speaker 02

  I'm gonna say that that has a term.

• 59:04Jefferson Fisher?

  Of course. That's one thing I love about Shada.

• 59:07Speaker 02

  It's a term.

• 59:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Is that if there is something, there is some kind of term for it.

• 59:11Speaker 02

  Well, it was the molten lava anxiety. There was one term you came up with, that was a good one.

• 59:16Jefferson Fisher?

  Thank you.

• 59:17Speaker 02

  This is called pluralistic ignorance.

• 59:18Jefferson Fisher?

  I knew it.

• 59:19Speaker 02

  Which actually, it, no, it's that.

• 59:21Jefferson Fisher?

  Is it?

• 59:22Speaker 02

  It is, it's actually called pluralistic ignorance, where we think we're the only ones who are behind, who are struggling, everyone else has it all figured out. Do you realize that most people are thinking that same thing? They just don't verbalize it.

• 59:34Jefferson Fisher?

  No, no, Shada, I'm the only one who's thinking it.

• 59:37Speaker 02

  I'm the only one!

• 59:38Jefferson Fisher?

  The only one who's thinking it.

• 59:39Speaker 02

  And it's such a stubborn belief, but it's so prevalent. And when you remind yourself that it's okay to be learning and growing and figuring it out, the other thing that we do when we struggle with agency is we fixate on here and now. All I can do is what I can do now, this is where I'm at. We forget just how far we've come. I mean, Jefferson, if you were to just shift your spotlight back to five years ago, your reality would have been completely different. I mean, when did you start creating content?

• 1:00:08Jefferson Fisher?

  Three years ago.

• 1:00:09Speaker 02

  Three years ago, right. So five years ago.

• 1:00:11Jefferson Fisher?

  Three and a half.

• 1:00:12Speaker 02

  You were a completely different, at a completely different level. And you back then might not have even had the ability to envisage what your life right now could have looked like.

• 1:00:23Jefferson Fisher?

  Not in a bajillion years.

• 1:00:24Speaker 02

  Which is wild. And that's the other thing. I think I like reminding people that sometimes when you ask yourself, like, what do you want to achieve for yourself? Sometimes we're not even capable of visualizing what is truly possible, unless we just take the step and see where we end up. And that's what you did. So if you can shift the spotlight back and just remind yourself, look at all of these steps I've taken when I haven't known how to do it, when I was figuring it out, when I was mastering this record in my car, which now everyone does, you know, that demonstrates so much tenacity and commitment, all these essence qualities. And it's just about drawing on them and applying them to whatever is next.

• 1:01:02Jefferson Fisher?

  Now that we've talked a lot about this, this element of big trust, what does big trust sound like?

• 1:01:07Speaker 02

  It sounds like someone who is unapologetic about who they are. It sounds like someone who speaks with a calm certainty, even if they don't have all the answers. It sounds like someone not trying to prove themselves, but believing so deeply that they are of value and have value to share, that other people can't help but sense it and believe it too. And so if we look at tangibly what that looks like, they walk into a room as if they truly belong to be there, meaning their posture is raised, their gaze is out, their chin is up. Super interestingly, we hear a lot about expansive postures. The importance of having an expansive posture and then you feel more confident. I wanted to understand what is it about the expansive posture that leads to those feelings of confidence?

• 1:01:52Speaker 02

  And I found there was one study that was published last year that found there is what's called a mediator, which means like that inner mechanism between the posture and the confidence. And it's the distance between your chin and your chest.

• 1:02:06Jefferson Fisher?

  Interesting.

• 1:02:06Speaker 02

  That it's called neck flexion. When you're slouching, when you're withdrawing, when you feel insecure, yeah, sure, shoulders go, but it's actually also your head that drops.

• 1:02:15Jefferson Fisher?

  Interesting.

• 1:02:16Speaker 02

  So you can just think, okay, what is the distance between my chin and my chest? And how do I elongate it? Not by looking at the ceiling, but in a natural state, you will naturally feel more empowered and then you will, there you go, you just did it. And you will naturally convey more of that. Big trust energy that we're seeking. What's really interesting about that, when you show up like you belong, because of something called, it's called, there's this idea of enclosed cognition, but the idea is when you're showing up as the person you want to be, people then respond to that. They respond more positively to that, which then makes you feel like, maybe I really do deserve this. Maybe I, I do have a voice that is valued. And then you show up more like that, and then they respond.

• 1:02:58Speaker 02

  So we almost create our environment based on how we choose to show up. And again, it's that posture, it's that voice, it's that eye contact. It's also if you mess up, just say, oh, let me try that again. Or that came out funny, let me rephrase that. So many people are, I used to be so afraid of making mistakes that if you make a mistake, you just go silent. Just acknowledge it, you're human. There's so much, what I love about big trust is that it's not about being perfect. It's not about being flawless. It's about being human, recognizing that even though you're imperfect, you are still worthy, you are still capable, you are still powerful, and you can still handle anything that comes your way.

• 1:03:35Jefferson Fisher?

  So good. I'm gonna ask you a question that I ask every guest at the end, and it's this. What is one conversation that has changed the direction of your life?

• 1:03:48Speaker 02

  When I worked in banking, I randomly sat next to someone, and as I do, I ask for their name and I like to get to know them. And after maybe a thirty minute conversation while we were doing work, he said to me, why are you here? Now I replied, oh, I just came to this floor because we're able to go. And he goes, no, no, no, why are you working in a company in this space? You should be doing bigger things. And I knew exactly what he was talking about. And it was almost like he unlocked the cage that allowed me to recognize, hey, I can have so much more value if I go off outside of this environment, outside of my job, which was, I don't know, in strategy or something at the time, and actually create a life where I can be of service

• 1:04:32Speaker 02

  and remind myself constantly to self-forget. So that was Josh, his name was Josh. I owe Josh big time, I'm still in touch with him.

• 1:04:39Jefferson Fisher?

  Oh, cool.

• 1:04:39Speaker 02

  That was my moment.

• 1:04:41Jefferson Fisher?

  That was it?

• 1:04:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 1:04:42Jefferson Fisher?

  That's awesome.

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Football has a play for just about everything. You can go deep, keep it on the ground, or draw up something nobody sees coming. And whether you want to run a flea flicker or the tush push, you need a plan to fit your unique situation. That's why State Farm takes the time to get to know you so they can help personalize coverage for your life and budget. Now that's a solid game plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.