#168 Lue Elizondo - X-15 Rocket Plane, UFO Cover-Ups & a Mind-Blowing Google Search

Luis “Lue” Elizondo is a former U. S. Army intelligence officer and UFO researcher. He gained prominence for exposing research at the Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program (AATIP), a Pentagon initiative investigating unidentified aerial phenomena (UAPs). Since leaving the Pentagon, Elizondo has become a vocal advocate for government transparency regarding UAPs. His memoir, "Imminent: Inside the Pentagon's Hunt for UFOs" debuted at number one on The New York Times Best Seller list. Elizondo continues to advocate disclosure of UAP information, appears in media interviews, and participates in various projects continuing the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: http://tryarmra.com/srs http://lumen.me/srs http://roka.com/ | USE CODE SRS http://hexclad.com/srs http://babbel.com/SRS http://helixsleep.com/srs https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/SRS Luis "Lue" Elizondo Links: Website - https://luiselizondo-official.com/ Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/lueelizondo/ X - https://x.com/lueelizondo “Imminent” - https://www.amazon.com/Imminent-Pentagons-Investigating-UAPs_Featured-Experience/dp/0063235560 Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 0:31Speaker 01

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• 1:03Shawn Ryan?

  Nice. I thought merengue, isn't that Dominican?

• 1:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, so my family's Cuban. My father was actually in the Bay of Pigs. My father was a revolutionary. Was captured by Castro's men on the beach during the invasion. He was on the USS Houston when it got rocketed. Some CIA guys also were there. Didn't make it unfortunately. But he was for two years in Castro's prisons. My father was a wonderful human being, but he's also a very tormented soul.

• 1:32Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 1:33Speaker 03

  And now, you know, we can recognize, oh, he had PTSD, right? Or as the old timers used to say, shell shock. So he struggled with anger and volatility for a very long time during his life. And as a young person, I had a really weird background. There was always this idea, this understanding that after the Brigade 2506, which was what my father was part of, in fact, if you type in my name, Luis Elizondo, in Bay of Pigs, you'll see my father's prisoner number. There was always this understanding that there would be a reinvasion by the new generation, by us, by the kids, and part of Alpha 66, and try to... So I had a really weird upbringing as a child.

• 2:16Speaker 03

  Always weird, smoke-filled rooms, and dim lights, and weird conversations. And so, at a very early age, I had my taste of paramilitary. And I... I didn't even know it.

• 2:29Shawn Ryan?

  Damn.

• 2:30Speaker 03

  I thought I was part of Boy Scouts and, you know, you go back to school and they, "What'd you guys do for..." "Well, I got my, you know, how to light a fire badge." "What'd you get?" "Oh, we disassembled AK-47s." "You didn't do that?"

• 2:40Shawn Ryan?

  We should dig into that. We should dig into that on the show, but...

• 2:43Speaker 03

  Whatever you want.

• 2:44Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, we will. So, Luis Elizondo, welcome to the show.

• 2:49Speaker 03

  You can call me Lou if you want. I know I look more like a Bob or a Bill or a Joe. Um, thank you very much. Um, Sean, if I can say something just for a moment. This is an incredible honor and privilege of mine, and not for the reasons that most people might think. Not because, um, you have a very successful show and you have a big audience. It's because of who you are and what you have done in the service of your country.

• 3:15Speaker 03

  There's a lot of people on the outside that will see things that people like you, or maybe I've done, and they kind of glorify that. But we also know the other side of that. We know the truth. And we know the pain that it causes for the loved ones we leave behind. It causes, um, even to us, to some degree, right? You keep a piece of that, those experiences with you at all times. Uh, and some of us try our best to try to suppress it. But what you have done for our nation, um, I'm not sure most people in your audience can really appreciate. And I only know because I've been there and experienced those things with you guys. And I just want to say from the bottom of my heart, and on behalf of a very grateful nation, although maybe they don't realize it, thank you for what you do.

• 3:59Speaker 03

  We are only here today having this conversation in a wonderful country that we are in, we have, uh, in this incredible experiment because of the sacrifices you and your colleagues have made. So, before we begin, please accept my humble appreciation, sincere appreciation, for the sacrifices you and your family has had to make for us, for the rest of us chickens. Thank you.

• 4:23Shawn Ryan?

  Man, thank you. That means a hell of a lot. Thank you. But, um, wow, thank you for saying that.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 4:31Shawn Ryan?

  And likewise.

• 4:32Speaker 03

  Sincere.

• 4:32Shawn Ryan?

  Likewise.

• 4:35Shawn Ryan?

  Let's get into the interview, huh? So, everybody starts with an introduction here, so... I think we might wind up doing a little bit of a live story here. I wasn't planning on doing that, but this sounds super interesting. Lou Elizondo, Lou Elizondo, you're a former US Army Counterintelligence Special Agent and former employee of the Office of the Under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence. You led a previously covert program within the Department of Defense investigating unidentified aerial phenomenon, UAP. You came forward to the public about Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, ATIP, bringing to light what the government knew about these mysterious objects in our skies.

• 5:19Shawn Ryan?

  Since then, you've worked to educate both the public and policymakers about the potential implications of UAPs for national security, science, and human understanding. You've been involved with organizations like To the Stars Academy of Arts and Science, aimed at advancing research into these phenomenons. You're a fixture in the UAP transparency movement and have appeared in numerous interviews, documentaries, and media segments discussing UAPs, where you've shared insight from your experience while critiquing the government's approach to transparency on this subject. Welcome to the show.

• 5:55Speaker 03

  Thank you. One point of correction. The UAP program at the Pentagon was not a co... I did run covert operations and activities, but that was for another effort while working for the US government. The ATIP program, Advanced Aerospace Threat Identification Program, which I helped lead and working with some of my colleagues, was a very sensitive program, but it wasn't covert. To... I know people like to... And forgive me for that saying, that I don't know why it says that. There's a legal definition of covert activities, and then there is from a Department of Defense, which is Title 50, and then from a Title 10 or DoD perspective, you have clandestine-type operations and sensitive operations, but ATIP was not covert.

• 6:36Speaker 03

  It was sensitive and a lot of classified aspects to it, but it was not a Title 50 program, although I ran it under, when I was wearing my Title 50 hat, under the covert umbrella. But in itself, it was not a covert program. It was a highly sensitive program. With a lot of classified aspects that I ran while I was running covert operations.

• 6:56Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, did you, did you start ATIP?

• 6:58Speaker 03

  I did not. No, no, no. It's fascinating, actually, the way ATIP started. It actually started off as a program called OSAP, the Advanced Aerospace Weapons, Advanced Aerospace Weapons Special Application Program, OSAP. You know, we love our acronyms, right, Intel community? It was in 2007, Harry Reid, Senator, who is, by the way, the Senate Majority Leader at the time. You had Senator Ted Stevens and Senator Inouye, so Alaska and Hawaii as well, so Nevada, Alaska, Hawaii, and even former astronaut John Glenn, all got together on the Hill, and somebody like bipartisan, so Republican and Democrat, got together and put funding together

• 7:43Speaker 03

  to create a program called, the contract vehicle was called OSAP. OSAP was a big program in order to look at, from the Pentagon's perspective, the UAP or UFO in the vernacular, the UFO issue. From there, there was an aspect of OSAP, OSAP was kind of think of a big umbrella, and then you have a little umbrella fitting underneath this bigger umbrella, which looked at a lot of stuff to include elements of what now is known as Skinwalker Ranch and some other things. ATIP was really focusing on nuts and bolts of the UAP phenomenon. So OSAP did too, but they were much broader, think of a shotgun approach versus a sniper approach. The shotgun being OSAP, the sniper being ATIP. And so I was actually part of the ATIP program.

• 8:27Speaker 03

  Although I worked with a lot of the elements in OSAP, my focus was really nuts and bolts on ATIP.

• 8:33Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 8:34Speaker 03

  So that's, it was started by Jim Lekatsky and Jay Stratton on the OSAP side.

• 8:38Shawn Ryan?

  You, you mentioned, so it was three, three state senators that started at Alaska, Nevada, and Hawaii. Is there, I mean, interesting, a lot of UAP activity in Alaska.

• 8:48Speaker 03

  Well, Ted Stevens had his own UAP encounter while he was a pilot, believe it or not.

• 8:52Shawn Ryan?

  No shit.

• 8:53Speaker 03

  And let's not forget that he was in World War II. Senator Ted Inouye, Senator Inouye actually gave his arm for his country, all of our veterans. Stevens was a pilot, and he had his own UAP experience, and then, of course... Interestingly enough, you had-

• 9:09Shawn Ryan?

  He was Alaska.

• 9:10Speaker 03

  He was Alaska.

• 9:11Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Ted Stevens.

• 9:12Shawn Ryan?

  What was his experience?

• 9:13Speaker 03

  Well, he reported, you know, classic Foo fighter experience, these objects that would would pursue him, uh, while he was a pilot. Um, and, uh, they were performing in ways that he couldn't explain. They were outperforming anything that he was aware of as a pilot. Um, instantaneous acceleration, very, very fast maneuvers, well beyond the, the, the, structural limitations of what we had at the time technologically. And so, I, and this is, by the way, this is not isolated. There's a, if you get a chance to talk to members of Congress privately, a lot of them will share with you their own UAP experiences. They're like, hey, man, I was fishing with my son and all of a sudden this thing comes out of the water. Saw it right there in front of us. Um, I think, you know, politically, they're a little shy to have that discussion publicly.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Now, maybe it'll come out, but you'd be surprised how many people, members of Congress have had their own experience.

• 10:03Shawn Ryan?

  Is there a lot of, I mean, the reason I brought up the three states, Nevada, obviously a lot of activity.

• 10:08Speaker 03

  Mm-hmm.

• 10:08Shawn Ryan?

  Uh, Alaska, a lot of activity. Hawaii, is there a lot of activity down there?

• 10:13Speaker 03

  Well, there is some. I would, I, I don't, it's hard to say there's a lot. So, there's an issue with Hawaii. It's population density and surface area. So Nevada, Alaska, lots of landmass. When you have people all around, so you get pretty much a good persistent eye in the sky. Maybe there's a farmer, maybe there's someone driving a truck, maybe there's a military person, a military bases. Hawaii is a much smaller landmass. So you have fewer people in a smaller area looking up towards the sky. So, we don't really know if Hawaii is necessarily a hotspot. Uh, we do have a military presence there, as we know. Uh, and we do have a couple sensitive facilities there because of geographically where it's located.

• 10:58Speaker 03

  Um, and so, it shouldn't be any surprise that we've had UAP activity there. But whether or not it's as much or as consistent as some of these other areas, like we've seen with, like, now, New Jersey, for example, with the drones, right? Where they're being reported everywhere. You don't have that type of population in Hawaii and you don't have the landmass. So we really don't know. We don't know if, if there's actually more activity occurring around the waters. Uh, we don't know if there's actually a, an increase or a decrease, simply because we don't have enough persistent, I guess, I hate to use the word persistent surveillance there, but we just don't. Remember, it's, it's a couple feudal islands in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, right? And so unless you're right there at the time something's happening, you're not gonna know.

• 11:42Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh. You had mentioned, uh, Skinwalker Ranch. I'm just going, I don't wanna lose anything.

• 11:47Speaker 03

  No, no, no.

• 11:47Shawn Ryan?

  Have you done any work out there with Brandon or?

• 11:50Speaker 03

  I, I, well, so before Brandon, there was a gentleman named Bob Bigelow from, and he owned Bigelow Aerospace. By the way, this is a, this is a gentleman, uh, who made his fortune in the hotel industry and then decided to jump to aerospace and actually succeeded, right? So this is a guy who put together, uh, these inhabitable inflatable type modules that could hook on to the, to the ISS space station, which by the way, they're there right now. He actually has them connected. Um, and he had these projects, Genesis one, Genesis two projects to, to create these inflatable habitats, uh, for NASA as kind of NASA's future space program. Um, and he was very successful. So he actually helped fund through his own money, a lot of what OSAP originally did to include Skinwalker

• 12:34Speaker 03

  Ranch. He owned the ranch before Brandon Fugel owned it. And there was a very robust, uh, research effort ongoing. People don't know that. But, oh, it's just a bunch of hooey. No, it wasn't. It's a lot of real stuff going on, a lot of real research. And I had access to a lot of those files. Um, that wasn't my portfolio specific, so I don't usually talk about it. Um, there's other people that are far more qualified than me to talk about Skinwalker Ranch. And by the way, there was more than one, one ranch. People don't know that. There are other facilities.

• 13:03Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:04Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I would imagine there would be, but.

• 13:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, I've been trying to get Bigelow on here for a while. He is an elusive guy. And then at an operation, I actually shared an elevator with him. And I didn't say anything. I didn't want to bug him. But, you know, I just...

• 13:21Speaker 03

  He is a...

• 13:22Shawn Ryan?

  Let him be.

• 13:23Speaker 03

  He is a... I consider him an American hero, and I don't say that lightly. You know, people can think what they want of individuals.

• 13:31Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 13:31Speaker 03

  But I've seen what he's been able to contribute to our country. You know, and if you ask him whether he likes me or hates me, it's really irrelevant. I've seen what he's been able to do and what he has done for our nation. So, you know, I'm eternally grateful for what he's done. And there's a part of that story that hasn't come out yet. I think our country owes him a great deal of gratitude for what he's been able to do for our nation.

• 13:55Shawn Ryan?

  So you were affiliated with it before, when Bigelow owned it?

• 13:58Speaker 03

  I was, yeah.

• 13:59Shawn Ryan?

  What was some of the stuff that you... I mean, what was going on there? Is it similar to what's going on with Skimwalker right now?

• 14:06Speaker 03

  Uh, very intense. You know, again, I want to be careful not to speak for other people.

• 14:14Speaker 03

  But I can tell you that there are some very strange things that occur on that facility, on that ranch, that certainly warrant additional investigation. Either they're national security implications. Well, it depends what your definition of national security is. But there's certainly enough going on there that warrants further inquiry. So I applaud what they're doing, what Brandon Fugel and others are doing. I think it's important. I think...

• 14:45Shawn Ryan?

  Why do you think Bob never shared any of the research with Brandon? I interviewed Brandon. He's a friend of mine now. And, you know, he did not give over any of the prior research to Brandon when he bought the ranch. So they're starting from square one.

• 14:59Speaker 03

  I don't want to speak on anybody else's behalf. Certainly not Bob Bigelow or anybody else. And that's probably one thing you'll notice during interviews. I never speak for anybody else. And I don't offer my opinion very often because that opinion could be wrong. I'd rather stick to the facts. But there could be one of two things. Let's look at the full spectrum of why. It could be that maybe Bob says, "Look, I don't want to predicate the science. I don't want to prejudice, forgive me. I don't want to prejudice the science with predicated information." Here's access to all my data and you take it from there. Start from scratch. So we have a fresh set of eyes on it and remain objective. Maybe that's why. Or it could be, hey, you know what? I paid a lot of money and put a lot of time into this. I consider this information proprietary.

• 15:43Speaker 03

  Um, and you know, you, you're gonna have to figure this out yourself. Maybe that's why. Or maybe, um, I don't know. Maybe there was, because there was some government involvement. Maybe he can't. Maybe he's like, look, it's proprietary to the US. All this information we did is proprietary to the US government. I can't release it without the US government's approval. I mean, those are just some of the what ifs. I, I don't know why. Um, I've never had a chance to ask Mr. Fugel that question directly. Um, but I do know Bob Bigelow and he never, I don't think he'd ever do anything just out of spite or to be mean. I'm sure he had a very good rea-, he's always very calculated. I'm sure he had a very good reason for that.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer. It's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 17:01Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends. Like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer. It's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 17:34Shawn Ryan?

  So in your experience, are the things that they were experiencing, are they very similar?

• 17:39Speaker 03

  Um, well, you mean compared to Brandon Fugel you're doing now? Uh, I think there's, there's some overlap, but again, I'm not really tracking now currently the Skinwalker stuff. That's, that's another group of folks. Um, it's not that I'm not interested. I am, I just don't have the bandwidth. I'm, I'm simply, as I tell people, I am dancing as fast as I can. I cannot turn the tempo up anymore. As fast as these legs will move. Um, so to, to spend my time and energy now on yet another portfolio, um, I, I just simply, I'd have to clone myself.

• 18:11Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, Lou, we have a Patreon account. They're, it's a subscription account. They're our top supporters.

• 18:18Speaker 03

  Good for you.

• 18:19Shawn Ryan?

  And, uh, they've been here with us since the beginning.

• 18:22Speaker 03

  Fantastic.

• 18:22Shawn Ryan?

  Keeps growing. It's a community now and, um, I wouldn't be sitting here without them and neither would you be. So.

• 18:29Speaker 03

  Great.

• 18:29Shawn Ryan?

  One thing I offer them is to ask each and every guest a question that comes on the show.

• 18:34Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 18:35Shawn Ryan?

  This one is from Jake Gillian. Given your unique insight into the UAP phenomena and its intent, and its potential implications for humanity, what do you believe is the single most critical piece of information the public should understand about UAPs right now? And why do you think this information has been withheld for so long?

• 18:56Speaker 03

  Wow, wow. Jake, great, great question. So let me see if I can deconstruct this a little bit. What is the one single aspect about the UAP topic that should be?

• 19:08Shawn Ryan?

  That the public should understand about UAPs?

• 19:10Speaker 03

  Right. The public should understand and should be revealed now and understand its implications and the importance of it. Wow. Um, there's not just one. Let me, let me see if I can break this down for, for Jake.

• 19:25Speaker 03

  There are fundamental reasons why you classify information by law, by law, and then later on, policy as well. Usually it's to protect two things called sources and methods. And then sometimes you can use it to protect some other things we won't go into here. But those are the primary reasons. What you can't do is classify information to cover up malfeasance or illegal activities, or something that might be embarrassing to the United States. You can't do it. It is against... We used to do it as a nation, and finally Congress stepped in after all these nasty little things that we were doing, like the syphilis experiments, for example, or the CIA and the LSD experiments, right? We did some pretty nasty things. So Congress stepped in and said, "No mas.

• 20:09Speaker 03

  If you're going to classify information, these are the reasons why you classify information. And if you do it for any of the reasons, you're wrong." I don't believe that any organization, any institution, any government, any religion, has the right to classify information that should be universally provided to all the people of the world and all the citizens. Now, what do I mean by that? Galileo Galilei, when he first proposed, looked through his telescope and first proposed the heliocentric model for our solar system, was met with so much resistance that the

• 20:53Speaker 03

  church almost burned him alive on the stake. And he had to recant and say, "No, I was wrong." In fact, they even refused to look through the very telescope to prove his observations. Now we look back, we say, "Well, that's silly. Why would anybody care that the sun is the center of our solar system and not Earth?" Right? Well, at the time, that information was thought to be very threatening to the Judeo-Christian belief system and the institutions at the time, primarily the church. So they, in essence, they tried to classify that idea. "Don't tell the world that..." Because this goes against what we've been telling people. And I don't think, you know, we look back, hindsight being 2020, realize that was dumb.

• 21:37Speaker 03

  Why would you ever do that? Why would you stop somebody from telling the truth?

• 21:42Speaker 03

  I think this topic is very much the same thing. Look, we tell everybody in modern terms every day that North Korea has atomic capabilities, and that's not classified. The fact that the Earth is not the center of the solar system is not classified. Now, what is classified is the fact that maybe North Korea, how those atomic weapons are delivered, and their flight characteristics, and their targets, gotcha, and you want to keep that classified. But the fact that North Korea has atomic weapons is not a classifiable fact. Just like we're not alone in the cosmos, these things are here. It's becoming the worst-kept secret. It's now a liability. There are two fundamental philosophies about secrets. Some people believe secrets are like fine wine, and the longer you keep a cork on it,

• 22:24Speaker 03

  the better it gets, the longer it ages. I disagree with that. I've told people all along since day one, secrets are perishable. They have a shelf life. They're like vegetables in your refrigerator, and if you leave them in there too long, they're gonna rot and they're gonna stink, and then you got a really big mess on your hands. So, if you allow a secret to go on longer than what's necessary, it actually will start working as a liability against you. And ultimately, we've seen with the JFK files, it will start to erode the faith and confidence and public trust in the very institution that it was trying, that secret was there to try to protect. This is no different with the UAP topic. It is so obvious at this point, and it's, and other, and our adversaries know it's real too,

• 23:08Speaker 03

  to keep the mere fact of the existence of UAP from the public knowledge, I think is a disservice. I don't think any organization, like I said, or government, has a right to keep that fundamental truth away from the American people. That's not their business to do that. Now, if you want to say, "Well, how these things actually work", and, because we obviously don't want North Korea or some rogue nation having that capability to hurt us, I got you. But to deny the existence of it...

• 23:39Speaker 03

  I think that's counterproductive. I think it actually works against, you know, trying to reinforce and instill faith and confidence in our government. I don't think that's the way to do it. I think ultimately, at the end of the day, everything is going to come out anyways, just like we see with the JFK files. You know, there's an old saying from Bob Marley, "You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time." And I think that's where we're at. I think we now have to reconcile and come back to the table and say, "Yeah, turns out, you know, we've been investigating these things for a long time, even though we haven't told you, or maybe we didn't tell Congress, and we didn't even tell presidents, certain presidents, what we were doing." Now, is

• 24:21Speaker 03

  that a problem? Yes. But we can figure that out. We can get over that hill. What we can't do is afford to erode any more faith and confidence. The faith and confidence right now in our government, at least was at an all-time low. Most people do not trust their government. That's a problem in a democracy. That's a very- I'm one of them. Hey, brother, we both served, you know, Uncle Sam. I got you. And sometimes, you know, if you really love something or love someone, you have to tell them what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. And this is a case, I think, this is why I'm having this conversation. The government needs to hear, "Look, it's time for you to be honest with the American people. I know what I was part of. My colleagues know what

• 25:06Speaker 03

  they were part of. We know what we've seen, and so do the pilots, and so do the radar operators, and so do the special operators, and so do the CIA personnel." The cat's out of the bag, guys. The cat is out of bag. So back to the question here, what is the one thing that should be revealed? The fact that we are not alone in the cosmos. In our 200,000 years of existence as modern Homo sapiens sapiens as a species, and only really been the last 100 years we had the technology to even begin to explore our cosmos, is it possible for our search- For intelligent life, that in all that time, Earth being four and a half billion years old approximately, that that intelligent life found us first?

• 25:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, statistically, yeah. And then when you look at the evidence suggesting that and reinforcing that, look, someone is flying these things around. They are intelligently controlled. They can outperform anything that we have. So who's behind it? That's fine if you don't, you know, want to consider that option. It's either Russian, Chinese, or ours. And it's not ours. We've already said it's not ours. We don't have that capability. And we damn sure hope it's not Russian or Chinese, because then we're really screwed. Oh, by the way, we've been dealing with this topic now for the last, what, 70 some years? Can you imagine? Look, when these things, Foo Fighters, we talked a little bit about Senator Ted Stevens and allied pilots seeing these Foo Fighters during World War II. Let me ask you a question, Sean.

• 26:36Speaker 03

  Right on the heels of World War II, we had this rash of flying saucers being seen and UFOs that were, in some cases, radar returns in the early 50s doing 10 to 13,000 miles an hour. Okay? Where were we? Well, we had just come out of World War II. We became the world's premier superpower. We had barely broken the sound barrier, and we hadn't been into space, and we were transitioning from propeller to jet, to the jet age. These things, we forget about 13,000 miles an hour, we could barely break Mach 1, right? Who had that capability at the time if we didn't? Well, where was Russia?

• 27:21Speaker 03

  They were just entering the atomic age themselves. China, they're in the middle of a famine, right? So there's no one who had that capability. I always use this analogy, that would be like, like going back into the 40s, that would be like going into King Tut's tomb for the very first time, and as you're breaking down the rock wall and peering into the vault, all of a sudden seeing a fully assembled 747 jet sitting in the tomb. Temporarily, it doesn't make sense. The Egyptians did not have that technology. So what is that aircraft doing in that tomb? It doesn't make sense. So, you know, there's the adage, in the face, there's two types of people in the world, in the face of new information. You can change your opinion based upon new facts.

• 28:06Speaker 03

  Or, like some people, reject the facts and stick with your own narrative because it's more comfortable and convenient. I think it's probably smarter and wiser in the face of new facts, we need to recalculate our thinking. And that's why I think, back to this question here, it's important that the people know that the US government has been spending your taxpayer dollars, a lot of it, trying to research these things that are very real. You don't spend millions and millions of dollars and billions of dollars on a wild goose chase. You don't do it. And hiding black budgets and things. You do it because something's real and legit. And I think that's where we are. Certainly my experience in the Pentagon and the intelligence community, this is substantiated.

• 28:50Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, I think a lot of people think maybe the Germans had some higher technology.

• 28:55Speaker 03

  Well, they did, though. Well, they certainly did. We know that. They had the German Wunderwaffe program, Wonder Weapon program, had like the Messerschmitt, right? The ME, what was it? 108 ME? That, the first jet airplane, really, that they, that was the Germans that came up with it. The V1 rocket, the V2 rocket, right? The buzz bombs and the long-range rockets. Those were all German technologies. In fact, with Operation Paperclip, when World War II ended, what did we do? We stole it all and brought it here, right? Werner von Braun and the Saturn V rocket, you know, that was just, I hate to say it, but that was a glorified V2 rocket, you know? So, yes, the Germans did. And then they had these other very interesting programs, you know, not too dissimilar to what the Pentagon had.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  They had, the Nazis had something called the Anunnava, which really looked at some kind of far-out stuff. Now, some people will look and say, oh, it was nothing but cult and witchcraft. Okay, but there was enough there, there, enough data to suggest that whatever they were doing worked or could help them with the war effort. So they invested a lot of time and money into that. And that's not just, you know, I was mentioning this because you said Germans, but other countries did the same thing. Other countries that were always looking for that strategic advantage. What would it take for me to have a decisive advantage on the battlefield? In the battle space. So people say, well, why would they spend it? Look, our country did.

• 30:18Speaker 03

  But one of my colleagues, Hal Podoff, the godfather of, of the US government, the CIA's psychic espionage program. That's right. I just said psychic espionage program. Your tax dollars paid for programs like Stargate and Grill Flame before that and various other names before that. Why? Because there was some information to suggest that it worked. And oh, by the way, the Russians were doing the same thing. You know, so people, people look at things and say, well, that's silly. That would never work. And it turns out that sometimes it does work. Look at the Navy Sos, you're Navy guy. The Navy Sosis program back in the 50s. Who would have ever thought, well, I could just drop some microphones in the ocean and maybe I can listen to Russian submarines.

• 30:59Speaker 03

  It worked, right? So, um, is it really that? Is it pseudoscience? Well, it's pseudoscience until it works. Now it's just science.

• 31:08Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I also think that maybe as Americans, we're a little arrogant thinking that we, you know, that, that nobody else could have this kind of technology because we're so, we're so technol, uh, you know, we're so advanced. And, you know, maybe somebody else has it. They're just not revealing it because they don't want to play the fucking world police.

• 31:27Speaker 03

  Right.

• 31:27Shawn Ryan?

  You know, we get ourselves involved in everything and, and.

• 31:31Speaker 03

  Well, why would you want to tell somebody, look, like we're in this wonderful room here, but if you're like me and sometimes paranoid, I've always have contingencies and I have contingencies for contingencies. So if you were a country that has a super secret technology, would you want to advertise the world that you have it? Well.

• 31:47Shawn Ryan?

  It's kind of what I'm getting at.

• 31:49Speaker 03

  Right. So it is possible.

• 31:51Shawn Ryan?

  We think we're the smartest.

• 31:52Speaker 03

  Right. But, but this is why I say temporally, I, I think now you're right because we know that near peer adversaries are absolutely ahead of us in certain areas. I won't say what they are, but we know that and it's a problem for us. But if you go back to the end of World War II, we're really.

• 32:06Shawn Ryan?

  Who are some? Who are some that are?

• 32:07Speaker 03

  I can't say that. I, I don't want, I, I don't want to, you know, there's, I want to let our folks in government do their job and they don't need me spewing out vulnerabilities that we might have where other countries are ahead of us. Um, but you know.

• 32:23Speaker 03

  Quantum computing, for example, you know, certain type of capabilities maybe in, in, in space, we, we, we have to maintain that competitive advantage. But again, let's go back to what we originally said here. If you look at this from, from a temporal perspective, time perspective, at the end of World War II, we really were the only world superpower at the time. We had dropped the atomic bomb and, and decisively ended World War II. What was referred to as the greatest generation then began to invest in the United States and became the world superpower, a dominant power. There was no real near peer, other than the Russians at the time, and they were still nowhere near what we were able to do. So I can buy now, if you say that there is a foreign adversary that has this capability,

• 33:06Speaker 03

  okay, I doubt, but maybe, but not 70 years ago. And let's, let's look at this, because Marco Rubio, the, the new Secretary of State, when he was Senator, said something very interesting. He said, you know, "I almost hope that these things are not human, because if they're human, that's almost more scary, who's created this technology?" And I think he's absolutely correct. To put this into perspective, we spend billions, with a B, billions of dollars each year to maintain a strategic advantage from an intelligence perspective, all 17 agencies of the intelligence community, to, to know more than our enemies, right? Now imagine if there was a country that had the ability to develop a technology and deploy

• 33:49Speaker 03

  this technology that could come into our country completely unimpeded, unchallenged, unseen, be able to do whatever wanted to do, collect ISR on our military equities, and interfere with our nuclear strategic capabilities, turn them off, right? And then go back home, no sweat, and nobody would ever know. That would be, and by the way, have been in development for the last 70 years on this technology, that would be the greatest intelligence failure this country has ever experienced, eclipsing that of even 9/11. Because despite the billions of dollars that we invest, there wasn't a single indication

• 34:29Speaker 03

  or shred of information over 70 years that some country had managed to develop this technology. Think of the resources and infrastructure required to develop and deploy a technology like that, right? And you didn't get one shred of evidence in 70 years that country X was doing that, right? So... Choose your poison. It's either someone else's or it's foreign adversarial. If it's foreign adversarial, you need to fire every single person right now in national security and start from scratch. And you better not provoke a war because we're gonna lose. So, that's the other part of that argument. If you, if you say, okay, maybe some country did develop this in secret. Okay, well, how? When? Where? Right?

• 35:14Speaker 03

  Under what circumstances? And now, China, you mean to tell me it's gonna be so brazen in 2004? To fly this right off the coast of California and, oh, by the way, tangled with two F-18 Hornets? That doesn't seem very smart. That's certainly not where I test my secret stuff. You know, we test our secret stuff at Area 51 in these places, out of the prying eyes of people to see it. Now, maybe it's some sort of Red Force probe, right? Some, some provocation to see our response. Sure, but there's also counter-arguments to that as well. So, um, it, it simply doesn't make sense, from a time perspective, that some country had this technology 70 years ago. Now, sure, maybe. I, I doubt it, but I would buy that more, that, okay, yeah, China, Russia, in the last five years has been able to develop this.

• 35:59Speaker 03

  Not bad. Look, 2004, how many people had quadcopters? Drones didn't even really exist in 2004. You had these fixed-wing, remote-controlled airplanes that you threw in combat, maybe for 15 minutes to get a sight picture on something. You know, what, what type of drones did we have? I mean, when I was in the Army, right before 2000, uh, 2001, we were dealing with model airplanes. Hunter UAVs, Pioneer UAP, uh, UAVs.

• 36:22Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it could be us just not revealing it too, because, I mean, if, if we are that techno, uh, technologically advanced, then, you know, there's, there's not really any money in that.

• 36:31Speaker 03

  Well, we also, though-

• 36:32Shawn Ryan?

  We both know that a lot of these, you know, the wars that we were in has to do a lot with, with, with KBR.

• 36:39Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 36:40Shawn Ryan?

  With the military.

• 36:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm gonna hold my comments to myself.

• 36:43Shawn Ryan?

  So, for that advanced, and I mean, we can end things that quickly, there's not really a lot of money in that, so they have to develop all this other shit that's, you know?

• 36:51Speaker 03

  The problem with that is that we-

• 36:52Shawn Ryan?

  Advanced, but it's not really that advanced, so that we can spend all our fucking money. You know what I mean? Develop and all this shit that's not, that's not at the top because if we just went straight to the top, then it just ends, you know, immediately.

• 37:06Speaker 03

  Well, we, we, I, I think, it's certainly a possibility. You're, you're, you're right, Sean. It is something we have to consider, but again, I go back to how is the-

• 37:14Shawn Ryan?

  Everybody talks about that.

• 37:15Speaker 03

  How, no, you're right. How is the, well, because that, that gets into a very uncomfortable part of the conversation. Uh, but-

• 37:22Shawn Ryan?

  But it's fucking real.

• 37:23Speaker 03

  Oh, I don't disagree.

• 37:24Shawn Ryan?

  Real.

• 37:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, that can, that, I'm not disagreeing. Um, but if you look at Blue Force capabilities and how we test Blue Force capabilities, especially sensitive capabilities.

• 37:36Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean, Blue Force capability?

• 37:38Speaker 03

  Uh, US capa-, good question. US capabilities. So if you look at the way we test new types of capabilities, right? Uh, for our military, for intelligence, we do it in places out of the prying eyes of eyewitnesses. We do it in a place where it's going to be safe and I don't have to worry about a potential midair collision, right? I'm not going to test this capability without letting, let's say, the fleet commander know that, hey, while you're out there in that range, I'm going to be testing my stuff there and see how you react. You don't do that because you could have midair collisions, flight safety issues. I mean, it's, you, that's why you have a joint staff to coordinate these type of things and say, look, I'm going to do an exercise and if I want to, if I want to test a new capability, I'm going to do it in Area 51. I'm going to do it out of the prying eyes of anybody in a place that's safe.

• 38:20Speaker 03

  And oh, by the way, if it crashes, I don't have to have a recovery issue on my hands, right? Where what is going to see and I have a big profile. So, um, I, I don't, and we've already said for the record, and certainly when I was in the government, we looked at Blue Force capabilities. We've got some pretty cool stuff. I mean, I'll tell you that.

• 38:36Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, even Area 51 though, it's not, you, you're talking right after World War II, objects going 13 mile, 13,000 miles.

• 38:43Speaker 03

  In low earth atmosphere, right?

• 38:45Shawn Ryan?

  That's, that's not, Area 51 isn't big enough to conceal something like that.

• 38:48Speaker 03

  That's my, that's my point. It, it, that's exactly my point. If you're going to test a capability like that, you go to Antarctica if you really have to, right? Or you're going to drop it from the bottom of a B-52 at an altitude of 60,000 feet and test what you got to test, which by the way, we've done. The X-15 is a perfect example. Um, but we do it in a way that is, it's safe and out of the prying eyes of people that are not read onto the program. You don't test it right off the coast of California in the middle of a fleet exercise with a, a, a aircraft carrier, dozens of destroyers and support vehicles and submarines and F-18s. You, you don't do that. That's not how you, you conduct a classified program because too many people see it. So I think there's a, you know, there's a, there's an argument there to be made that,

• 39:32Speaker 03

  you know, obviously, I would rather this technology be ours than Russian or Chinese. But I think we're pretty clear now as a government, it's not our technology. And, and our government has already said for the record, very senior people, this is not our technology. So if it's not ours, it's somebody's. Whose is it? What's the X-15? X-15 is a rocket powered aircraft, um, so right on the heels of the supersonic age, uh, we had just, I think it was the, uh, X-1, um, was the experimental aircraft, uh, that Chuck Yeager used to break the sound barrier for the first time, roughly 763 miles an hour at sea level, plus or minus.

• 40:12Speaker 03

  Um, the X-15 was a hypersonic vehicle that was to take people into space, believe it or not. In fact, the pilots have astronaut wings. It is a, um, think of a little, a long skinny pencil with stubby wings on it. Uh, doesn't even have landing gear, it has skids. And it's dropped from the wing of a B-52 at high altitude and then, uh, accelerates up to hypersonic speeds and goes to the upper limits of our atmosphere and into a, a low Earth orbit. In fact, if you look at that platform, the X-15, uh, not only does it have wings and control surfaces, but because it flies so high, it has to have thrusters. It's just like a, just like a rocket, just like a space shuttle. Uh, and that was really, when you look at how we were testing, I think there were only

• 40:57Speaker 03

  six of those ever built. Uh, they started off with twin 500 horsepower, 500,000 horsepower engines, then they switch it, uh, to a General Electric 1 million horsepower engine. Um, and in fact, there was even a death associated with the X-15 because, uh, apparently it had an issue with telemetry. And it flew so high that when it was coming back down to Earth, it, uh, it burned up. It, it didn't re-enter properly and, and unfortunately, the test pilot was killed. Uh, but the X-15 was really our first early attempts and you're talking maybe 4,000 miles an hour. So Mach 5 is hypersonics. The definition of Mach 5 is supersonic, which is the, the speed of sound, faster than the speed of sound, roughly 760 some miles an hour at sea level.

• 41:41Speaker 03

  Mach 5 is defined as five times the speed of sound. So five times that speed. So the X-15 was one of those preliminary early efforts to get into the area of hypersonics. It was manned. And so the X-15 was... And so when you compare that to objects that are doing 10,000, 13,000 miles an hour, and we had barely broken 4,000 miles an hour with the X-15, again, who had that technology? And more importantly, who had that technology to deploy it over the United States? Because we were seeing these things, and they've been reported over and over again since the late 1940s. There's a very interesting document, Sean, I'll share with you, that really, I think,

• 42:23Speaker 03

  emphasizes, and later on in the interview, if you want me to read it to you, I will. There's a very interesting document, and the data of that document, that really is, I think, rather profound, and really demonstrates that we're now dealing with our technology or foreign adversarial technology.

• 42:40Shawn Ryan?

  Let's read it right now.

• 42:41Speaker 03

  Probably cheap.

• 42:42Shawn Ryan?

  That way we don't forget.

• 42:43Speaker 03

  Actually, you know what? It's on my phone, and I don't have my phone here.

• 42:46Shawn Ryan?

  Let's take a break.

• 42:52Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Good times mean competitions between you and your friends, like seeing who can throw some pigskin the farthest, or rush the field the fastest. Winner gets an Ultra. Because it's not just a superior light beer, it's also giving fans superior access to their favorite sporting events. Superior is worth playing for. Visit michelobultra.com/superioraccess to enter. Enjoy responsibly. Copyright 2026 Anheuser-Busch InBev Michelob Ultra Beer, St. Louis, Missouri.

• 44:00Speaker 03

  So, I think Sean, you'd be really surprised to know that there's documentation, historical documentation, that substantiates what we've been dealing with, and we've been dealing with it for quite a while. So if I have your permission, I'd like to read something out loud and then-

• 44:14Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, let's do it, let's do it.

• 44:15Speaker 03

  You have to forgive me, I need my old man glasses, because I am old, this is gray, not blonde.

• 44:20Shawn Ryan?

  No.

• 44:21Speaker 03

  I'm an old timer.

• 44:26Speaker 03

  I'm also a lot slower than I used to be.

• 44:28Shawn Ryan?

  Tell me about it.

• 44:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 44:30Shawn Ryan?

  I got my kid a trampoline. Tried to burn some energy off. I got on there thinking like, "Oh yeah, this'll be great."

• 44:37Speaker 03

  Nah. It's terrifying, isn't it?

• 44:39Shawn Ryan?

  Lifted my knees and dislocated my shoulder again.

• 44:42Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 44:43Shawn Ryan?

  I'm like, "Oh, I don't remember, I don't remember this happening."

• 44:46Speaker 03

  I'm not saying I'm like I used to. So, I'd like to read to you, just briefly, a very, uh, it's a two-page official document, and it's, uh, the, when you look at the letterhead, it's Headquarters, United States Air Force, Washington DC, with another header, uh, the Inspector General, US Air Force, uh, I think it's 17th District Office of Special Investigations.

• 45:12Shawn Ryan?

  Is this the, before you read, is this the one you were telling me downstairs that hasn't been released to the public yet?

• 45:16Speaker 03

  It has, well, people, a lot of people don't know about it. It has been officially released and downgraded from its classified original form-

• 45:23Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 45:24Speaker 03

  -through the Freedom of Information Act.

• 45:25Shawn Ryan?

  Gotcha.

• 45:26Speaker 03

  Uh, but it's been lost to a lot of people. A lot of people don't even know where it exists, and I've got a whole bunch of these. But let me just read you one, if I can, to kind of emphasize what I'm saying. The subject of this memorandum, basically from the Pentagon, right? Summary of Operations of Aerial Phenomenon in the New Mexico Area. And I'm not going to tell you the date yet. In the first paragraph, "It was determined that the frequency of unexplained aerial phenomenon in the New Mexico area was such that an organized plan of reporting these observations should be undertaken," right? So they're seeing so many of these, they need to start an investigation. The observers of those phenomena include scientists,

• 46:09Speaker 03

  special agents of the Office of Special Investigations, Air Force OSI, airline pilots, so civilian pilots, military pilots, Los Alamos security inspectors, military personnel, and many other persons of various occupations whose reliability is not questioned. So these are the best of the best, people have security clearances and whatnot, trained observers. And they talk about some of the morphology of these phenomena to include discs or variations thereof. And so in the conclusion sentence, which is paragraph six, "This summary of observations of aerial phenomenon

• 46:52Speaker 03

  has been prepared for the purposes of reemphasizing," so obviously they wrote reports before this one, "and reiterating the fact that phenomenon have continuously occurred in the New Mexico skies during the past eighteen months and are continuing to occur. And secondly, that these phenomenon are occurring in the vicinity of sensitive military and government installations."

• 47:19Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting.

• 47:20Speaker 03

  Now, what's the date of this report? Twenty-five May nineteen fifty.

• 47:27Shawn Ryan?

  That's from nineteen fifty?

• 47:28Speaker 03

  It is from nineteen fifty. And there are a treasure trove of these things that anybody can look at now and see. And this is not world according to Lou Elizondo, I'm not telling you this. Your government's telling you this, not me. The same government that later on told people, "Oh, nothing to see here, folks." In secret, they're saying, "There's a lot of things to see here, folks, and we gotta pay attention."

• 47:49Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:55Speaker 03

  So therein lies the conundrum.

• 47:57Shawn Ryan?

  You know, I wish we had recordings of people's reactions instead of like this fucking typed up, you know, reports that have to sound...

• 48:05Speaker 03

  Well, you can see in the last paragraph, right, where it says, "The purpose of this is to reemphasize and restate," right? So you can sense the frustration that that action isn't being done. There's CIA documents that'll talk about how are we gonna go ahead and collect information on these things? There's radar reports, track reports, multiple radar systems, tracking these things doing thirteen thousand miles an hour in a low Earth atmosphere environment where the friction of air is... Put it this way, the SR-70, Lockheed YF-12A SR-71 Blackbird... When that thing is doing about 3,200 miles an hour, the entire aircraft had to be made out of titanium to keep the plane from melting because it gets so hot because it's flying at that speed.

• 48:44Speaker 03

  And in fact, the coolest part of that engine on the SR71, they played it in gold, is 800 degrees Fahrenheit, right? Those are the, that's the heat you're talking about. Now, that's at 3,400 miles an hour. Imagine 13,000 miles an hour. And by the way, by the way, no signature, no sonic boom, no acoustic signature, no contrail like you see with a jet plane when you're flying at 33,000 feet, no signature at all.

• 49:12Shawn Ryan?

  I got a question for you. Totally off, you know, I was just thinking about the recording stuff and you've obviously been involved in a lot of the stuff. I know you can't talk about everything, but why is it always these fucking reports that have been, you know, I mean, what about the initial interview? You know, somebody goes out there and does the initial fucking interview. Why, why don't we have, where are those recordings?

• 49:36Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 49:37Shawn Ryan?

  Rather than some bullshit, you know, typed up thing, hey, this came from, this came from the interviewer, they got passed to the analyst, they got passed to the, whoever reports to the whoever, you know, where are those initial recordings? Are they recorded?

• 49:55Speaker 03

  Well, sometimes, sometimes they're auto recordings, sometimes they're written reports, sometimes, so in this particular case, as you probably already-

• 50:02Shawn Ryan?

  That would be the most descriptive account.

• 50:04Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:05Shawn Ryan?

  Not some polished up-

• 50:06Speaker 03

  Well, from one person, keep in mind when you want to get all the different perspectives, right? So, the idea of a report like this isn't to just give you one compelling story, it's to take all those reports that you're getting from various different, remember, pilots, OSI agents, military personnel, right? It's in the report. So, obviously, there's a lot of people reporting these things, and so this type of report is really an amalgamation of all those reports to send up to headquarters. What you don't typically do, and I can tell you this as a former special agent myself- In the field, when you're taking notes and you're writing reports, you understand that the report that you're writing isn't necessarily the one that's going to go to headquarters. The one that's going to go to headquarters is usually by the senior person who's taking all the reports and creates a comprehensive, single report and says, "This is what we're doing."

• 50:51Speaker 03

  So that two-page memorandum that I just read portions of, there's probably hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pages that are used to substantiate that one report.

• 51:00Shawn Ryan?

  So where are those documents?

• 51:02Speaker 03

  Well, they're usually in the hands of the investigative agencies. So, for example, whether it's Army or the Air Force OSI, Army Counterintelligence, Air Force OSI, or Navy NCIS, right? They, they don't typically share those reports because some of them are what they call law enforcement sensitive. Some of them are intelligence sensitive, and a lot of them are very, very classified because you're talking to people in key positions who have key jobs. Maybe they're working on special access programs. So you've got to, you've got to compartmentalize that information. And then, in order to distribute that information up to the highest level, you've got to start whittling away some of the more sensitive information. Say, "Here's the salient facts. Here you go." It's just like when you go to court.

• 51:39Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I'm, I'm aware of that, you know, because of what I used to do.

• 51:42Speaker 03

  Exactly.

• 51:43Shawn Ryan?

  But what I'm asking is, where do those go?

• 51:45Speaker 03

  Most of them, I think, that old are probably gone. They're supposed to be archived. Um, I can tell you when I, and this is, you know, God, I can't believe I'm going to say this. One of my greatest,

• 51:58Speaker 03

  greatest disappointments to myself, um, professionally speaking. So when I was, um, a young, younger agent, um, one of my jobs was to go to a particular military base where they had all the old archives of classified reports, back to Korean War, Vietnam. And there was this huge archive in the basement of a particular office on Fort Meade. I won't say where it is, where the, uh, Army and some other elements kept all their old historical reports, intelligence reports, talking to sources. It became so big and so cumbersome that there was an effort to try to digitize all of that. It couldn't be done, and this was in a day and age where we didn't really have very good technology. Everything had to be hand-jammed into a machine and scanned and cataloged and blah, blah, blah, blah. So very labor-intensive.

• 52:42Speaker 03

  So the Army decided, "Okay, anything over 25 years old, unless it's obvious we need to keep it, we want you to shred it." And so one of my jobs was to go in to this place, into this huge room, and go through file after file after file. And...

• 52:59Speaker 03

  Shred stuff.

• 52:59Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 53:00Speaker 03

  And now we look back and say, wait a minute, that's, that could be considered evidence. You're right, but that was what we were told to do.

• 53:06Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 53:06Speaker 03

  And it wasn't that they're trying to cover their butts, it's just too much. You had room after room after room of file cabinet, file cabinet of classified information. That's twenty five, thirty, thirty five, forty, forty five years old.

• 53:16Shawn Ryan?

  I know what the FBI is doing right now before cash gets out.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Well. God, I hope not. Uh, I hope that they're not doing that. Um, but that's what was going on. So I, I suspect a lot of this may have just been lost. A lot of it may have been chewed up, burned up over the years, shredded. Um, you know, you have people that come and go, they put something in a safe, a five drawer security container with an X O ten lock on it. Someone forgets a combination, they drill it out, oh, there's some documents here, go ahead and shred the documents either from, you know, twenty five years ago, nobody cares. They don't even bother to look at it. Um, some of it just may be that incompetence, maybe some of it is, uh, uh, not, uh, pretty sure a lot of it's not deliberate, people just don't know what the hell they're looking at, they see a project code name, Blue Phoenix.

• 54:03Speaker 03

  Okay, so I don't know what that is, obviously it's not that important, it's thirty five years old, shred it.

• 54:08Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm, hmm. I mean, you're an investigative guy, right?

• 54:13Speaker 03

  Well, they said I used to be, I don't know if I could.

• 54:15Shawn Ryan?

  So, so what, you had mentioned ancient Egypt earlier and it, and it was just an analogy, you know, what if we went in there and there was a seven forty seven in one of the fucking pyramids? Look, is any, a lot of people think that the Egyptians, the, you know, ancient whatever, whatever the tribe was and, or, or, you know, the Peruvians, you know, all these, Easter Island had some kind of, you know, that they were way more advanced than what we, what they've been made out to be. I mean, they still can't explain how the pyramids were made, they got these underground caves that, you know, Graham Hancock kind of brought to life, I think they're in Turkey,

• 54:56Shawn Ryan?

  it's like entire cities under the, underground, I mean, is anybody looking back at that and trying to piece any of this stuff together?

• 55:04Speaker 03

  Great question. I think there's a lot of people on the outside of the government, there certainly are. They see, they see. Nobody within? Well, let me get to that. Okay. I can't say that, so, um, you know, there's a lot of people trying to find congruencies. Can we see things in the old world and make some sort of analysis based upon what we know now? And make compare and contrast capabilities. Um, I can tell you when I was in ATIP program, several of us spent a good deal of our time looking at ancient script of human beings, whether it's ancient Sumerian and cuneiform or hieroglyphics or runes and, uh, looking at a lot of different things because several

• 55:47Speaker 03

  of the UAP that we were investigating, uh, were reported to have some sort of writing on the outside. Now, that's very significant, writing, runes, some sort of symbols. And so the idea was, is there a way to decipher these by looking at ancient human writing and see if there was any overlap? Was there ever a time where maybe some of that ancient script that we have was actually influenced by an external source? Meaning someone saw something in the sky that landed and had these writing on it and therefore that inspired for them to write stuff, right? Are there any stories like that? Are there any cave paintings that maybe ancient humans came into contact with something? And if you look at the indigenous people here in the United States, they talk about the ant people, right?

• 56:32Speaker 03

  And some of their genesis stories talks about things from out of there. And same with the Aboriginal people in, in, in Australia, some even in Africa, a lot of them have very similar type genesis stories. So one of our efforts in ATIP was to look at ancient human texts in all various forms to see if there was any correlation. Now, interestingly enough, what, what the scientists that I was working with came up with, which now looking back seems obvious, but it wasn't obvious at the time, the mere fact that there is writing on some of these vehicles, whatever they are.

• 57:11Speaker 03

  Can allow you to formulate several conclusions. One is, let me ask you, Sean, what do we use as humans? What is writing for? What do we use writing to do? Communication, documentation. Nonverbal communication, right? A thought, an idea, an order, something. We give you an order, write it down, right? I'm gonna tell you something, I'm gonna write it down in a document and give it to you, it's indelible, it's there always. What do we use? What are we communicating? Well, it depends. Sometimes we're communicating, you know, like if you see, go to a Jeep Jamboree and you see a sign that says, "If you can read this, flip me over, I've turned over," right? Or, "If you can read this, something went wrong, call home." Or, it could mean something else. But it also means that whoever is using the writing, that human eyes, the way we look

• 57:54Speaker 03

  at eyes and the electro-optical spectrum, the way we look at data, whether it's a magazine or a report or whatever it might be, dictionary or bible, you have to have eyes. That's why blind people use braille, because they can't see, they can't read. So, whoever wrote that, A, is smart enough to know that they want to communicate a message, and two, that whoever is going to read it has to have eyes of some sort. Some sort of eye that can differentiate and actually see that and then interpret that as an actual message. And so, that's a huge deal, because that's fundamentally, you're talking about a higher functioning brain, because there is no animal in right now on earth other than humans that use writing to communicate information and knowledge, right?

• 58:39Speaker 03

  So that's a distinctly human thing, that's a very high-brain functioning thing, or at least for most people, a high functioning brain capability. And it also means that whoever's reading it, the audience, has to have eyes. So, two fundamental things, whatever is behind these things, they have eyes of some sort, some way to visually see something, recognize it, and interpret that information, and that they have a higher functioning part of the brain that can take those symbols, and those symbols have a meaning. And so, that was kind of a pretty big moment for us in A-Tip, because we realized, hey, there's maybe a lot more similarity here than we think, right? There's some things that we share. That with something that seemed to be only humans can do.

• 59:23Speaker 03

  And now it turns out that maybe something else can do too, or someone else can do too. So we do look at ancient, I know your question is more like about ancient technology and capability.

• 59:36Shawn Ryan?

  Not necessarily. I mean, there's even that other, uh, I can't, man, I'm gonna butcher her last name. Diana.

• 59:42Speaker 03

  Pasulka.

• 59:43Shawn Ryan?

  Yes, Pasulka.

• 59:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:44Shawn Ryan?

  Just interviewed her not long ago. We haven't released it yet, but I mean, she talks about a lot of the stuff, you know, within the Vatican and some of the, you know, I mean.

• 59:53Speaker 03

  I've seen some of it. It's, yeah, legit. Had a senior academic share some information with me. And it was in Latin and it was a communication over 2,000 years old between a Roman soldier and a Roman general. And the Roman shield, at the time, they called eclipse. Eclipse in Latin means like eclipse, the sun, cause it's like the sun. And they discussed there how these flaming Roman shields in the sky were following them from battle space to battle space. Right? Saucers, lenticular objects. So think about that for a minute. Uh, going back to your, your, your point about ancient Egypt, look, you're absolutely correct. There's ancient knowledge that we don't know how it was done. Look, Baghdad battery.

• 1:00:37Speaker 03

  What the hell in Iraq were they building ancient batteries for? But that's exactly what it was.

• 1:00:42Shawn Ryan?

  What do you mean ancient batteries? I don't know about that.

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. Yeah, using copper and, and stoneware filled with a solution, probably orange juice. They're creating electric currents. You can look it up on, on phone, you look on your computer. It's called the Baghdad battery. This is before electricity supposedly was invented, before we ever discovered something called the electromagnetic spectrum. An electron. And millennia ago, they were using it for something. They, they were creating electricity. It's called the Baghdad battery. That's a fact, right? You can go, I just came back from, from, from England. And in the museum there, the British Museum, there's an entire Sumerian art collection there. And there's a wall, and I have pictures of it, that depicts ancient Sumerian warriors doing what?

• 1:01:26Speaker 03

  Being frogmen, scuba diving underwater, they had this sack that they would hold. And there's actually depictions of these people swimming underwater, breathing with these sacks.

• 1:01:38Shawn Ryan?

  Hmm.

• 1:01:39Speaker 03

  So, you know, we, it's easy to look back and say, oh, the ancient people, they were basic. But can you build a pyramid? I can't. Can our, I mean, how much resources would it take now to build a pyramid? Yeah, you can go to Las Vegas and see one that kind of looks like one, but it's not a pyramid.

• 1:01:56Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  You're talking millions of stones placed in an exact position, cut precisely with, with tooling that even to this day, we have a hard time replicating.

• 1:02:06Shawn Ryan?

  With all the tunnels inside of it.

• 1:02:07Speaker 03

  With all the tunnels inside of that. Look at, look at some of the H blocks down in, in, in Latin America, South America, uh, in, in Pumapunku, look at, look at, there is an ancient technology. Look, go to Greece and, and at the base of the Parthenon, you'll see these huge, huge, huge stones that even today, we're not quite sure, even some of our largest cranes would have that capability. The infrastructure required is, is, is enormous. And there's, there's other places around the world that are just like that. So, you know, we can turn around and say, oh, ancient societies, they were, they were primitive. Well, you know, don't be so quick, you know? And look, I'll give you another case in point. There's a, there was a discovery done, talking about Egypt, about, um, ancient mummies where they found traces of what in their bodies?

• 1:02:52Speaker 03

  Cocaine. Now cocaine doesn't grow on that continent. It only grew in South America, the coca leaf, right? How in the hell is our coca leaf and the derivative of, the processing of to create cocaine found in some mummies thousands of years ago in Egypt?

• 1:03:13Shawn Ryan?

  So you're saying these ancient mummies were partying with cocaine?

• 1:03:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, careful. I don't dare party with it, but anyways, but poison, well, it was used for medicinal purposes or whatnot, but, but yes. So that is, that is a fact. You can see it. They, they pulled the traces up. How did that happen if these ancient trade routes didn't exist, right? There was no crossing the Atlantic Ocean or the Pacific Ocean. So there's a lot of mystery with, with, with our ancients and our ancestors that, you know, I, I think it's, it's foolhardy for us to just be dismissive and say, oh, they were, they were primitive. They were savages. No, they weren't. Look at, look at the, look at what the Aztecs were able to do with a calendar and predict even, even, even lunar cycles and to include eclipses. I couldn't do that now,

• 1:03:59Speaker 03

  but yet they were able to do it. So I, I am not as dismissive, and this is why going back to ATIP and, and looking for UFOs, it was important for us to see if there was any context in which we could see any similarity, any inspiration that might have existed between ancient man and perhaps something else.

• 1:04:25Shawn Ryan?

  So there is government officials that are looking back at this stuff.

• 1:04:28Speaker 03

  Uh, I, I'm pretty sure there still are. I don't know if, I know we did. I can't say they are right now, but they'd be foolhardy not to. There's, there's, you have to do proper research if you really want to solve a mystery.

• 1:04:45Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Speaker 03

  Now, keep in mind, let me also say though, in, also in, in defense of some of the other folks who said we weren't interested in that very much because it didn't apply to today. When you, you know as well as I do, you're talking to a three or four star general. I can't show up and say, hey, boss, you need to see this document from 1950. They don't care. They want to know what happened yesterday and what's happening today. Yeah, that's great, Lou, but I don't really care what happened 70 years ago. What happened to our F-18 yesterday that came into contact with a bogey? That's what I want to know. I don't give a crap about that stuff. I care about this. So there is also that, this, this, this sense of urgency from an operational perspective, you know, to keep it from a national security perspective, you're really not going to spend a whole lot of resources looking in the past as you are

• 1:05:29Speaker 03

  going to be looking into the present and trying to predict the future from a military and a national security perspective, right? I don't care about Japan's use of a Mitsubishi Zero back in World War II as much as I care about maybe Chinese stealth technology being used today.

• 1:05:48Shawn Ryan?

  I mean,

• 1:05:53Shawn Ryan?

  usually I wait till the end to ask these kind of questions, but what do you, what is this stuff? Is this nuts and bolts? Is this, I mean, I didn't realize that you were connected to Hal Podoff. I've talked to a ton, I talked to Skip Atwater, Joe Monocle, um, I've done a handful of these guys, Edwin May, um, Angela Ford, you know, I mean, I didn't, I did not realize you were involved or how, whatever your involvement was with that. I mean, could this be,

• 1:06:26Shawn Ryan?

  and I don't know what you know that you can't say,

• 1:06:30Shawn Ryan?

  is it nuts and bolts? Could this be some type of collective consciousness? That all of these experiencers are experiencing? I mean, we got, we got the, we got Neuralink coming online, you know, probably very soon. And I interviewed Andrew Huberman about, uh, we had a little bit of a talk about that and how, you know, it would technically be possible for, for, with Neuralink to create an entire false reality, motions, all of your senses, touch, taste, feel, feelings, um,

• 1:07:12Shawn Ryan?

  you know, uh, vision, you know, I mean, that's one of the things Neuralink is gonna do is, is hopefully help blind see. I mean, is that a possibility? Is that what this could be?

• 1:07:25Speaker 03

  It can be everything and, and, and, and all of it together.

• 1:07:28Shawn Ryan?

  Then we've got Grush who's coming out saying that they've, they have crash retrievals where, I mean, and everything's so vague where we've recovered non-human biologics. Is that, is that the terminology that's? I mean, that could be a, that could be a deer carcass next to an airplane crash. You know, I mean, I'm not saying that's what it is, but I, you know, put a fancy term behind it, behind, you know, like, non-human biologics. Okay, well, is that a, a dead mouse? I mean,

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  They're using non-human intelligence, NHI. So it's not just non-human biologics. It's it's non-human intelligence. What does that mean? Well, intelligence infers that there's a higher functioning of the brain, right? And there may even be. So to answer your question thoroughly, we first need to break down and have an agreement on certain terminology. So let's talk about, for example, consciousness. You hear that term used a lot, human consciousness, you know. But what does that mean? If you go to somewhere in California out by the bay, someone says, yeah, man, the world's about to. The world is a bud about to blossom and, you know, human consciousness, we're all together. Then you talk to a neuroscientist and they say, no, it's actually a quantum process. It's actually probably based in quantum entanglement.

• 1:08:40Speaker 03

  And human consciousness is is something that is distinctly different than than human intellect and human physical sense. There's there's another part of the human being, another component that makes us human, the size of a brain and a body. Uh, so we have to first agree what that means. Secondly, we also have to understand that the human being is an incredibly complex organism. My background is micro. I went to school professionally to be a microbiologist and an immunologist. So I am a disciple of science, always have been, always will be. I was never a science fiction kid. I always tell people I was more of a G I Joe kid than I was a Star Wars kid. So I I was trained in science and and empirical data collection. Uh, the scientific methods and principles. And then I became an agent, right? Which is just a fax man kind of guy. Just give me the data. I don't care what you think. I don't care how you feel.

• 1:09:24Speaker 03

  Give me the data, let's see what the data suggests. Um, so, but I think we need to understand the notion of human consciousness. Our taxpayer dollars have been used to explore that idea. Uh, over and over and over again, because there is, there's enough information there to to suggest that there is. There is something to this human consciousness, like, again, remote viewing program with Stargate, right? Um, we actually did that against Russians and they did it against us and we did it against other targets. And to some degree, there was there was some real success there. Despite what some people may tell you, it was successful. It might still be. Um, but with that said. Let's take a quick exercise on human consciousness and trying to decipher what that means. You said you have a daughter, right?

• 1:10:09Speaker 03

  Uh huh. Do you love your daughter? Very much. Absolutely, and so do I. What if I said to you? Prove it. Prove it to me you love your daughter. How do you know what it is and what is love? I mean, we all feel it, right? But how do you know you really love your daughter? Well, you can't prove it because it's something that we all recognize as being real, as part of us and our existence and our experience. But it's really hard to define and you just know it. And of course, I love my daughter. I'll do anything for my daughter. I'll die for my daughter. But prove it. Well, dying for my daughter isn't proving I love her. It's just proving that I'm dying. So, so how do you do that? How do you, how do you define something that is, that is inherently so hard to define? Now, take that conversation and apply it to all of human consciousness.

• 1:10:54Speaker 03

  What is consciousness? What is it even, right? And is it possible that human beings have something indelible beyond the body and the mind? Something that lives beyond, something that is greater than the physical sense and the intellectual sense? Look, you and I are, if you compare us to a banana, I think we share like 75% of our DNA with a banana and like 99% of it with a chimpanzee. But if you were to compare our DNA, yeah, there's some differences. But for the most part, you both, we both have two arms, two legs and fingers and two eyes and bilateral symmetry. So, we're not really physically that different, you know? And then if I ask you about your brain, well, maybe it's a brain that makes Sean Ryan who Sean Ryan is.

• 1:11:37Speaker 03

  Well, okay, but if you look at the neural pathways and you go to a neural surgeon, they're kind of the same as mine and medulla oblongata and the frontal cortex. And, you know, the parts of the brain are pretty consistent throughout other humans. That's why we can do brain surgery. You know where things, how things are wired for the most part.

• 1:11:53Speaker 03

  So that's not what separates us. What makes Sean Ryan Sean Ryan? What makes Sean Ryan willing to go to battle and go to war and potentially die for his country? Or Luis Elizondo to do what he does? Well, that's the question. Is that where human consciousness lies? Is that where, where human sentience is? And is that something that is shared with other higher life forms? Or is it specifically humans? I have five German Shepherds. Love them. And they all have human names. But let's face it, they're not really humans. And I talk to them like babies, because that's what we do. "Oh, you took you little boy, right?" But in reality, it's a dog. Now, it's not a human. But because we are anthropomorphic creatures,

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  because everything we do, we judge our entire sense of reality based upon what we know and who we are. So we superimpose that on other things that are alive, and sometimes even not alive. Why people refer to their boats as a "her," right? "Oh, she's a beautiful boat." Because that's what we do innately. We are trying to ascribe something else with our own values and attributes. It's just what we do instinctually. So when you're dealing with something that is potentially truly non-human, true potentially, and not earthly, how do you deal with something like that? Well, the only way you know how is by ascribing human attributes to it. You say, "Well, they're maybe motivated like us, and they're scared like us,

• 1:13:20Speaker 03

  and they have whatever biases they have. We have those too." And it's a way for us to relate to something that is... It's a way for us to know the unknowable, potentially. And so, when we talk about human consciousness, and is it possible that these things are also part of a larger consciousness network? Well, it's possible. It's possible everything sentient has that... You know, you have societies that will refer to that as a soul, or a chi, or an it, or put whatever name you want to put on a spirit. But is that what really means to be human? Because this is not really any different than yours. There's something else that makes Sean Ryan who Sean Ryan is. And it's not your physical self,

• 1:14:04Speaker 03

  and it's maybe not even your brain. So that's part of the discussion. And then, you know, you talked about the five fundamental senses in which we judge our environment in the universe. And for millennia, look, Homo sapiens sapien in modern format has been around, I've talked to most anthropologists, maybe the last 200,000 to 400,000 years. Earth has been around for four and a half billion years. So modern humans have only been here in a blink of an eye. Really, just, poof, just say, "I popped in, and here we are."

• 1:14:33Speaker 03

  We have five fundamental senses by which we judge our environment and in fact, the way we process information. And if you can't touch it, taste it, hear it, smell it, etc., we don't know it's there. In fact, it's one of the reasons why we use radio telescopes. Where I live in Wyoming, beautiful, unoccluded night skies. You see all the stars in the heavens. And yet, when you look at that same part of the night sky through a radio telescope, what do you see? Oh, you see all sorts of new stuff. You see megalonic clouds and you see nebula, things that you can't pick up with the human eye. In fact, most of space lies beyond our ability to directly perceive it. If you look at the electro-optical spectrum between red and blue, right, the way we see the universe, that's only .0035% of the entire electromagnetic spectrum.

• 1:15:16Speaker 03

  Again, .0035% of the entire electromagnetic spectrum. That little narrow sliver of window, that's how we perceive our reality. So, most of reality lies beyond that. Imagine if you had cellphone signal, cellphone vision, and now you could see in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, and you could see in FM and AM and GPS. Your perception of reality would be different, fundamentally different, and your awareness would be different than what it is right now. And then you have a scalability issue as human beings. If you look, I tell people, if you really want to get your mind blown, type up on Google or any search engine the words "pale blue dot." And what you're gonna see is this black, inky blackness, and right in the middle, about

• 1:16:01Speaker 03

  maybe two pixels large, a little blue fuzzy dot. What that dot is, is when we sent out the Voyager spacecraft on one of its last commands, we told it, "Turn around and take a picture of home, of Earth." Everything you have ever known, you've ever learned, everything you've ever loved, everything you've ever feared, every person that ever lived in history, every person that ever died, ever, is all on that tiny little blue dot hurtling through the vacuum and inky blackness of space. Now, that's uncomfortable for some people to think about. And then when you think about the size of the universe, modern, right now, most astrophysics, physicists and cosmologists agree that the visible horizon, meaning as far as we can

• 1:16:43Speaker 03

  see in any direction, from one end to the end of the universe, is about forty billion B billion light years. Now, what's a light year? It's the time it takes in the distance traveled by a photon of light in one year. So how fast does light actually travel? One hundred eighty-six thousand miles per second. That's seven and a half times around our planet in one second. Multiply that to a year, and now multiply that to forty billion years, right? That is an enormous distance. And that's only, only ten percent of the actual size of the universe, as predicted now by some scientists, because most of the universe is too big, it's too far away, the light will never reach Earth.

• 1:17:26Speaker 03

  So now you're talking about a universe a hundred billion light years, and human beings is infinitesimally small speck right in the middle, right? As mind-blowing as that is, if you take one hydrogen atom, Avogadro's number, six point two-three, or six point two-eight times ten to the negative twenty-three in size, that's roughly the same magnitude, order of magnitude, that atom is to us as we are to the universe. Meaning, we sit right in the middle of the scale of the universe. And mostly, we can only interact as human beings with one order of magnitude, or two orders of magnitude up or down, otherwise simply the universe is too big or too small. We will never know. And that's where most of reality actually lies.

• 1:18:11Speaker 03

  So for us to sit here and say, "Well, you know, these things, and it can't possibly be this," and we know nothing. We, we, our perception of the universe is so limited, it's like trying to look at the Grand Canyon through a soda straw. You know, it's, it's incomprehensibly large and complex, and we're always learning something new about our universe and our place in our universe. And so when you talk about human consciousness, I know this is a very long-winded way to have the conversation, but it's important, because we don't understand consciousness. We don't understand how it works, right? If it's really part of quantum entanglement, and, and where space and time is irrelevant, we live in a three-dimensional space with three axes, right? X, Y, Z and axis, plus time as a function of the fourth dimension, but we experience time...

• 1:18:55Speaker 03

  Linearly, unlike space where we can experience it three dimensionally, for the most part, human beings experience time linearly, meaning it's one way. But is that really the way time works? Well, we know time is relative because GPS satellites that have a have an atomic cesium clock onboard, which is the exact same atomic cesium clock we have at the ground station, we started noticing something very weird. We had something called atomic drift, meaning depending how far the satellite was, the GPS satellite was from the surface of the earth, the more there was a deviation in the time on that atomic cesium clock. Now, how is that possible if the atomic decay, the half-life, is exactly the same as the one on the ground? The reason is because time, the further you get away from a massive object, time gets,

• 1:19:38Speaker 03

  time runs at a different rate, literally at a different rate. And so, we now know that the very notion of time isn't actually linear. And so, I've often explained, human consciousness, potential, potentially, this is just, I don't know this for sure, this is kind of the way I've experienced it, and especially if you talk to some remote viewers. You can imagine, if I were to ask you a question, Sean, I say, Sean, give me your, give me your simplest, in less than a sentence, few words as possible, if I were to ask you, Sean, what's your definition of the past? What would it be? And it's not a trick question, you answer it any way you want. As simply as possible. Definition of the past. Definition of the past, what's your definition of the past?

• 1:20:22Speaker 03

  Prior experience. Right, something that already happened, right? It already happened. And by that same definition, if I ask you, Sean, what's your definition of the future? What would it be? What's going to happen? What's going to happen, it hasn't happened yet, right? So, very simple, it already happened, it's going to happen. So, by those definitions, if I say, define for me the present, what is it? Well, the present isn't a moment of time. It's actually a transition process where the future becomes the past. And it happens so quickly and so fast, that it's probably measured better in Planck time than in actual human seconds. And it's not really a point, it's, it's, it's a process. And so, if you look at, for example...

• 1:21:04Speaker 03

  Let's look at a cigar, where the ashes, I've used this example before, where the ashes of a cigar is the past. It's already been burnt up, that's it, you can't put it back together. The future is that part of the cigar that hasn't burned yet, and the present is the cherry. It's that moment of ignition where the tobacco is being consumed and turned into ash. Now, if you had the ability to, to look very carefully at the cherry of that cigar burning, you'd notice something very strange. Once you remove the glare and really focused in, you'd notice that the cherry of that cigar, the cigarette, is burning unevenly. Meaning, if you could get in there and squeeze inside and look, you would see that there are parts of that cigar that are igniting and becoming ash before other parts. And you can actually have parts that have not yet been consumed

• 1:21:47Speaker 03

  behind parts that have been consumed. There's this weird fuzziness there, and it's why some now, some physicists theorize, what they call, what they call the atomic, electron, sorry, the electron cloud. When you and I were in school, we learned that an electron orbits an atom. It's not actually what's happened. We now realize it's a cloud. It's, the electron is both there and not all at the same time. It's this weird duality principle. Because scientists believe that at that small of a level, the electrons are so small that they're actually able to zip in and out of reality. The fabric itself of spacetime, they're so small they can zip in and out of. And so they're everywhere and nowhere, all at the same time. This is kind of more into the more quantum physics models of our understanding

• 1:22:29Speaker 03

  of the very, very small of our universe. It may even apply to the very, very large, but also may apply to human consciousness, which may explain why we invested so much time and money into things like remote viewing, because if my brain is quantumly connected to your brain, then it doesn't matter how far away you are, or what time it is, we can always connect. And maybe that is, as some neuroscientists have speculated, that human consciousness is actually a quantum process. It's actually, your brain is like a quantum computer. And that's where, that's the realm, that's the domain in which human consciousness lives. And if that's the case, is it possible other higher forms of life also have that ability, and that is actually not unique at all?

• 1:23:12Speaker 03

  In fact, when you see two dogs enter a room, some have speculated, there's some sort of non-verbal communication going on. We don't understand it, but they do. And is it possible that, that... Human consciousness is really not that unique or special. In fact, many forms of life share that consciousness, a consciousness, and have the ability to communicate. Maybe things like remote viewing are actually vestigial capabilities. Meaning, it's nothing new. We're not evolving to become superhumans. We've always had this. In fact, before we had verbal communication, that is now global and virtually any language I can look up and translate. Perhaps it was a survival technique. Perhaps we needed this type of ability to communicate

• 1:23:53Speaker 03

  and transmit information for our very survival.

• 1:23:58Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Joe McMonigal talks about this a little bit. When I interviewed him, he talks about before there was before there was language, before there was pointing and grunting, that it was, that basically, language has made us a lot more we're not as efficient as we used to be.

• 1:24:15Speaker 03

  Correct.

• 1:24:15Shawn Ryan?

  And that the communications, while there were no words, it was a lot more efficient. I knew what you were thinking, you knew what I was thinking.

• 1:24:22Speaker 03

  Look, people say, "Well, that's a bunch of hooey." We're doing it now. We have, we can put on helmets and you can have an Air Force pilot sitting in a room with his thoughts, be able to fly a drone. They're, talk about video games and these people that are really good gamers. It was only a few months ago that some, a gentleman, a quadriplegic, had a chip put in his brain, and now he can play Call of Duty, of all games, better than most professional Call of Duty players. Why? Because it's a direct interface between thought to action. There's no neurons and neural pathways and having to translate electrical signals into motor signals, right? Which is inefficient. It's just direct, boom, brain to the interface to the game,

• 1:25:02Speaker 03

  which is arguably much more efficient, much faster. Would that not be the preferred way? If you had an ability, I'm seeing this wonderful portrait of you in a helicopter up there. Imagine being able to fly that helicopter without ever having to touch anything, and it's instant. The helicopter goes exactly where you want it to go, when you want it to go, and how you want it to go, right? All with this. Well, technology, we're, don't look now, but we're getting close to that now. We can almost do that now. You have technical interfaces that are helping people do things now that were never even imaginable five years ago. So we're almost there now.

• 1:25:45Speaker 01

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• 1:26:22Speaker 03

  So to say, "Well, that's a bunch of hooey. That technology would never exist." Hey buddy, have you seen the news lately? Right? So, I think, I think you're right. And I think going back to the original question you had, which is, I know, forgive me, way, way, way around. But it's important because we're talking about, you asked me, is this technological? Is it consciousness? Could this all be related? What do I think about when people say that? You know, we have to, there's a lot we have to unpack here. We have to discuss what is consciousness? Is it something that is universal? Or is it just for humans? And is it, is it the, is it the thing that is, mainly makes, makes life, life? And those are all really relevant questions.

• 1:27:07Speaker 03

  I, I can't answer that because I simply don't know. All I can do is, is provide for you my own experiences, and, and some of the work that we did in ATIP and some, some other efforts. But I think the jury is still out. And I think in order to have that conversation, we first of all have to agree what it means. Even in terms like, something like consciousness. Because different people will interpret that word to mean something else. It's like love. Right? "I love my, I love my job. I love my car." "Well, I love my kids." Well, that's a different type of love. Well, wait a minute. Love is love. No, it's not. Love isn't love. "I love chocolate." But I don't love chocolate like I love my kids. Right? And I, I love my wife differently than I love other folks. So, and other things.

• 1:27:50Speaker 03

  So, maybe consciousness is the same way. Maybe there's not a single definition for what consciousness is. And I think that's part of it, because we're trying to talk the same language, but in there, some of those words don't have the same universal meaning for every one of us, if that makes sense.

• 1:28:08Shawn Ryan?

  Does make sense. How involved were you with the Stargate program?

• 1:28:14Speaker 03

  What I'm comfortable to talk about is that early in my career, I was brought into a very interesting program.

• 1:28:22Speaker 03

  The gentleman's name was Eugene Lesman. He was probably the top at the time, the top remote viewer for the United States Army.

• 1:28:30Speaker 03

  And that was my first experience. I was brought into a very strange program early in my career after after getting out of the Army. I didn't understand it. I didn't know what they wanted from me. Eugene had me

• 1:28:49Speaker 03

  do some things, I guess, to test if I was a good candidate. And then very shortly thereafter, the program had the plug pulled, the funding was pulled permanently, and I wound up having a regular, normal job.

• 1:29:04Shawn Ryan?

  So you were gonna be a remote viewer?

• 1:29:06Speaker 03

  Uh, well, I got trained to do some of it, you know. I didn't say I was a good one. There's guys out there a lot better, and gals a lot better than I was, but but I can tell you it works. And Hal Pudoff, if you, I'm not gonna if you ever interview Hal Pudoff, say, "Hey Lou, wanted me to ask you about the whole DC Metro incident on the red line." Let him tell you the story.

• 1:29:26Shawn Ryan?

  Maybe you can connect me with him.

• 1:29:27Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, he's an incredible human being. Him, another person, if you ever could get, Dr. Kit Green, Christopher Green, we call him Kit. Kit worked with me and Hal worked with me on ATIP.

• 1:29:41Speaker 03

  You know, the US government has had a long interest in in remote viewing. I know some people find it funny, but

• 1:29:49Shawn Ryan?

  We didn't stop that.

• 1:29:53Speaker 03

  I can't, I would not be able to elaborate if there's any programs that exist or don't exist anymore. But

• 1:30:00Shawn Ryan?

  I'm not ready on that.

• 1:30:01Speaker 03

  Look, it makes sense that if something works, you don't stop it.

• 1:30:03Shawn Ryan?

  I know, we didn't stop that. But, um

• 1:30:08Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, where I was going is, what do you make about Edwin May said that, I believe he's, don't quote me on this, you can go back and look the interview up, but I believe Edwin May told me that remote viewers only correct forty, less than forty percent of the time.

• 1:30:25Speaker 03

  Well, what's, what's correct, right? So if you ask me to predict a lottery number.

• 1:30:30Shawn Ryan?

  He says what's correct is what can be verified, which I tend to agree with.

• 1:30:34Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:30:34Shawn Ryan?

  You know, and Joe had, um, two that stick out to me. He, he remote viewed, uh, a mountain in Alaska. I believe it was in Alaska where they said that there he, he, he remote viewed some kind of non-human beings, uh, inside of a mountain. Sounded like, basically like some type of a space center.

• 1:30:56Speaker 03

  How about this? Let me ask you this, Sean, and we'll, we'll get back to, because Joe McMongol and those guys really know their shit for stuff. Um, let me ask you, um, let's say someone remote viewed you and said, um, you got into a motorcycle accident when you were younger. Um, it was a, a pretty bad motorcycle accident, totaled your motorcycle, uh, and it was a, uh, it was an Enduro Yamaha motorcycle. And you turn around, you said, no, actually it was a Honda or a Kawasaki.

• 1:31:22Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:31:23Speaker 03

  Is that person right or wrong? They didn't get Kawasaki right, but they got everything else right, to include the injury that you sustained and the fact that you totaled your little Enduro motorcycle. So, so this is my point when they say, well, they weren't accurate. Well, what's accurate? That they got ninety percent of it right and ten percent wrong? So, again, it goes back to the metric that's being used to say something's right. I will tell you that in my experience, some of this, yeah, some of this stuff was off, off target. But some of the stuff was dead on, and I mean, dead on. To the point where the United States actually successfully located a downed Russian supersonic test plane that was being flown, and it crashed over the Congo in Africa. And no matter what, all the satellites we used and airplanes, we couldn't find it, and neither could the Russians. Who found it? Remote viewers.

• 1:32:06Speaker 03

  Look at the story behind General Dozier and Brigada Rosa, Red Brigade, and, uh, the killing of Aldemoro, who was at the time, um, the president of Italy, and then they captured, they, they kidnapped, um, General Dozier. Um, and they were gonna kill him. And, uh, remote viewers got pretty close to being able to locate him. If you look at what they were, what they were doing, they got damn close, and some actually say that's the reason why he was saved. Um, remote viewing can be very effective. Now, it's, but it's like any other collection data point. You know, there's bias. There's collection bias, and then you also have other issues. You have interference. You know, the human being, that's why I say remote viewing should never be taken as a a single source intelligence capability.

• 1:32:49Speaker 03

  It it's it should be there as an additive capability, right? So just like when you're collecting intelligence now, you have a human source, but you never just go with human. You go with SIGINT, you go with ELINT, you go with, you know, whatever other ins you need, intelligence collection capabilities to bolster or to negate pieces of information that you're receiving. You you never want to take single source reporting. You always want to have have a a comprehensive capability that has multiple sources of feeds of information, and then you base your conclusions off of that data.

• 1:33:21Shawn Ryan?

  So what do you make of stuff like that mountain? Or, which I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

• 1:33:26Speaker 03

  I know what you're talking about.

• 1:33:26Shawn Ryan?

  What do you make of that?

• 1:33:28Speaker 03

  Um, you know, I I I find it interesting. There's people who've remote viewed stuff in Antarctica. People have remote viewed stuff, um.

• 1:33:36Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, Joe remote viewed Mars at, I can't remember the years.

• 1:33:38Speaker 03

  He's not the only one.

• 1:33:39Shawn Ryan?

  Two or 3000 B.C., the pyramid. You know, you know what I'm talking about?

• 1:33:44Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, there's a book, really interesting book. This this really all kind of kind of blew up when, uh, there was a army captain, um, he's a Ranger, sustained a TBI, uh, in an exercise, I think it would have been Bright Star in Egypt. Um, and he had a, uh, a wound to his head. I think it was caused by a graze bullet that caused some damage. And he was on his way to getting out of the army because, um, he he he said he saw things. And he thought they were hallucinations. Um, and long story short, he got actually recruited into into into the Stargate program, into remote, because he was actually a very, very good remote viewer. And the name of the book is called, um, Psychic Warrior.

• 1:34:27Speaker 03

  I don't believe the gentleman is practicing anymore. I think he had maybe had some complications as a result of it. But that was really the first book that came out that that really kind of revealed the Stargate program and kind of the day to day operations of what they were doing and what we were trying to find and the type of things that were going on. So if you want an interesting book to read or anybody in your audience that listens, pick up the book Psychic Warrior. I'm not promoting, by the way, let me just further, I'm not promoting it's a good book or it's a bad book, but it's an interesting way to kind of get a sneak peek behind what some of the people in the government, our government, our intelligence community were doing, both CIA and DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, Central Intelligence Agency, and even

• 1:35:08Speaker 03

  the Bureau to some degree, believe it or not, were involved with regarding regarding remote viewing. It can be very effective.

• 1:35:16Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, the Mars thing, I mean, and the Alaska thing, it didn't sound like there was a lot of follow up on that, so.

• 1:35:24Speaker 03

  Well, so now you have, because now we have technology, right? We can confirm by sending probes and to the moon and to Mars and other things to substantiate if what the remote viewer is seeing is accurate. So, again.

• 1:35:40Shawn Ryan?

  Was there any follow up?

• 1:35:41Speaker 03

  So that was, if there was, I wasn't part of that. That was significantly before my time. My folks, now, there was a very interesting boy, how am I getting mad at me for this? No, I can talk about this. So, as a result of remote viewing, some of these reports were very classified. There was one in particular incident with an individual, it might have been with Ingo Swan, actually, if I'm not mistaken. I might be mistaken, so let me just caveat, it was with a very good remote viewer, where their target was a Russian submarine.

• 1:36:20Speaker 03

  They were providing the description on this new, might have been a typhoon-class submarine, I don't know, probably before that, but it was, it was, it was one of the latest new submarines that the Russians was deploying and This was Joe. Re- reviewing, and you, well, did they, did you, did you find out what was following the nuclear submarine? No. UAP. No shit. I said, well, that's, and they're like, well, what else do you say, well, that's interesting, but do you want to know what's following it? They're like, yeah, and goes, there's a UFO, following the sub. Yeah. So, people like Hal Pudoff, who I consider a national treasure, talk to him, talk to him if you can, because, you know, he's not getting any younger, um, he, he, he really is, is, is an American patriot that did a lot for his country, took a lot of crap for

• 1:37:04Speaker 03

  what he was doing, uh, he got accused of all sorts of, of nonsensical crap from, from his haters, you know, something I think we both can appreciate quite a bit. Um, but in reality, you know, he did a lot for his country, uh, and, and, and a lot of that was extremely, extremely successful, and the fidelity of the information was right on the money. Interesting. It's a fascinating subject. Quantum entanglement. Well, that's, look, I'm not a quantum physicist, you know, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express, but I'm not a quantum physicist. Um, I would, I would talk to folks like that, talk to maybe Eric Davis, Dr. Eric Davis as well, Hal Pudoff, Kit Green, Kit Green is also a, a medical doctor, who

• 1:37:49Speaker 03

  understands things, um, very, very well from a biological and medical perspective, and I'm sure he has his opinions on that as well. What was Davis's name? Uh, Eric Davis, Dr. Hal Pudoff, Dr. Eric Davis, and, uh, Dr. Kit Green. By the way, all of them patriots, all of them, great, great work for our country.

• 1:38:18Shawn Ryan?

  All right, let's, let's, uh, got a little sidetracked there. Maybe I'll actually hit this outline eventually. But, um, you know, let's talk about your involvement in Army Intelligence and how you got involved with ATIP. How did that happen?

• 1:38:34Speaker 03

  Well, they weren't the same. It wasn't the same journey. So I, uh, I grew up, um, I think I kind of mentioned I had a bit of a dysfunctional upbringing. Um, my, to tell you about how I got here, I need to really tell you about who I, who I was and how I started. So my father was a revolutionary. He was a revolutionary in Cuba. Um, at the time, there was, uh, there was this dictator named Batista, Batista in Cuba. And, um, there were, uh, there was corruption issues. So my father, with some other people, people like, uh, Fidel Castro, Chaelara, uh, realized

• 1:39:18Speaker 03

  that Batista wasn't good for the country. So they trained in the mountains and they overthrew the country in a coup. And Castro had promised freedom and democracy and elections and had a little bit of support from the US government to do that. And he took over. And when he took over, he very quickly turned and, uh, pronounced himself pretty much president for life, which is a dictator, not a president. And he sided with the Russians. And that was a problem. So my father basically telling his friends, hey, this is not what I signed up for. He said he was gonna, you know, offer freedom and democracy and instead he's, he's just as bad as Batista. So, uh, my father told his family that he was going to the United States to study English.

• 1:40:03Speaker 03

  Uh, instead went to Orlando, talked to some people in the CIA and joined the revolution, Brigade 2506.

• 1:40:11Speaker 03

  And so he went to Guatemala, trained in the jungles of Guatemala, and then was on the USS Houston boat that went from Guatemala for the invasion of Cuba. They landed on the beach, and my father was subsequently captured. And for about two years, spent his time in Castro's prisons. The last one was called Isla de la Pinos, Isle of the Pines, where my father had, he had a tooth that had, I guess, become, it had erupted and he had an infection. So they did surgery on him without anesthesia. And for food, they ate boiled horse hoof. Right? So really bad experience. Long story short, two years later, he comes to the United States.

• 1:40:56Speaker 03

  And my mom and him have what they call, my dad always called it the romance of the century. My mother was this beautiful bombshell model. She worked as a Playboy bunny. She was a model. Are you serious? Yeah. While you were alive? No, no, this is leading up to me. And so they were, they were, my mother was this beautiful bombshell, very free spirit, and she had a really troubled past herself. So never liked to talk about her family. But this young, dashing Cuban revolutionary, and they fell in love. And although, interestingly, they never officially got married, I found out later. Even though they said they were married, they never were married.

• 1:41:40Speaker 03

  So as a young kid, I remember living in a wonderful, wonderful, loving family environment, until it wasn't. My father, you know, for thirty minutes of the day, they had, again, the romance of the century. The other twenty-three and a half hours were hell. My father and mother fought very violent. And then when the marriage finally ended and they divorced, I was, my whole world went upside down.

• 1:42:10Speaker 03

  The bank repossessed the house my mother and I were living in. I had to sell my clothes at a flea market so my mom could pay rent. Various...

• 1:42:19Speaker 03

  Male figures in and out of her life. Uh, she struggled, she struggled so much. My father went from uh being very successful entrepreneur and restaurateur to now working in a wood factory. And I was making more as a busboy at Red Lobster than my father was making um at the wood factory. And they were living separately. And I was caught in the middle. I went to big public school and really bad for me, bullied bad, bad, bad, bad. I, I, I was, I was a, a, a pretty interesting kid. Um, so because of that, uh, I got angry. And um, one day I decided, so when I get beat up, I might as well, you know, grab one of these guys with me and take him down, I guess.

• 1:43:04Speaker 03

  And uh, I did. And that led, and, and I got in trouble at school for it. But that was very empowering for me. Cause I, I never liked bullies. I, I hated it, but I was too afraid to do anything about it. And so um, one day I fought back. And I fought back hard and I realized I was pretty good at it. And I started fighting a lot, too much. And in my public school, uh, I wasn't very popular. Um, really rough, really dark times for me. Uh, bounced around a lot, many different homes. Um, I was angry. And I joined J R O T C. Now J R O T C at the time is what it is now. Uh, I went to a big public school. Um, I went to a school that was still engaged in the now controversial

• 1:43:49Speaker 03

  uh, practice of called busing, where they would take kids from different parts of the socio-demographics and, and underprivileged kids and they would bus them into a different school to try to give them opportunities. So ROTC was kind of a last ditch effort. If you were a bad kid, getting in trouble all the time, you were kind of forced into ROTC, um, I guess for discipline reasons. Um, and so most people, if you weren't, you know, a popular kid and a jock and, you know, you, you went to ROTC or you went to juvenile hall. Really, it was kind of that way. Um, I had a different experience. I all of a sudden met people that felt just like me. And we had this sense of camaraderie. And uh, I found strength in that. And I loved it.

• 1:44:31Speaker 03

  And I, it was, it was, it was the military that I realized would save me. And it would teach me how, how, how not to be. Mm hmm. And so I went into college, very poor. Um, so I had to pay for it. So I, I, I became a bouncer. Uh, at a lot of the various nightclubs. I, I convinced myself I would take those jobs because I could go to school during the day and then I could make money at night, cash under the table. And, you know, that was the way I was going to support myself through college. The reality is it was an excuse to fight. And I didn't realize until I got older and I got more mature and I, I realized why I was doing what I was doing.

• 1:45:11Speaker 03

  I was still very angry and, and I, I, I just, I just wanted to teach bullies a lesson. I had a lot of hurt inside. So I come to that realization. Oh, fatherhood, marriage, time. Uh, I was an angry young man for a very good portion of, of my younger years. And, and it was, you know, it's anger can be like rocket fuel. It's very volatile and you can use it to really propel yourself. Uh, but also it's like rocket fuel is very caustic. It can eat you up inside. It's like acid.

• 1:45:50Speaker 03

  Um, and over time, um, it, you, you, you, it can destroy yourself. And it, I realized that, that I needed to do so. I needed to figure this out. Because my motivation for doing things, while I would tell myself one thing was really for some other reason. Um, you know, self-delusion can really be a powerful thing when you're younger. So I went to college, um, studied microbiology and immunology for the wrong, again, the wrong reasons. I, I was told by my, my family who had at that point kind of disowned me. Extended family like, oh, he'll never make it to college. And if he does, he'll never make it past his first semester. So I chose the hardest major to find.

• 1:46:34Speaker 03

  I'm going to go to the medical program. I'm going to be a microbiologist and immunologist. You? Yeah, that's what I'm going to do. And so I did, again, motivated for the wrong reasons. Fortunately, it worked out to my benefit. Um, I actually enjoyed it a lot. And use some of that later on in my, in my life and my career. Um, so finishing college, I was in a lot of debt. Uh, really not a whole lot of options. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life looking through a Petri dish and a, and a microscope. So, um,

• 1:47:04Speaker 03

  I joined the army. Now, what I didn't say is early on when I was a young man in high school, and before that, as a young, even seven years old, my father had this idea that I would join the new revolution, Alpha 66 and retake Cuba. So me and itself and some other kids were always taught weird paramilitary skills, how to disassemble a Kalashnikov, and what's the difference between a 223 or a 5.6 and a 6.2 by 37 versus 39. And my dad, when I was eight, taught me how to fly a plane. By 11, I was scuba diving. How to build explosives and provide explosive devices in the kitchen using household products, like

• 1:47:45Speaker 03

  really weird stuff that's not healthy for a kid to learn. But my father had this desire, I guess, for me to accomplish the mission that was his mission. It was never really my mission. But I think he felt that somehow that I would do it and help liberate Cuba. That was his number one prerogative for everything I remember as a kid. And he was volatile, man. He was volcanic. When he blew up, man, someone was going to jail, and it was usually my dad. He was very intellectual and very smart, but he was also exceedingly volatile. And as a kid, I was terrified of my father because of that, because he was unpredictable. And I didn't want to be like that. I wanted to be like my father, but I

• 1:48:29Speaker 03

  didn't, if that makes sense, you know? I wanted to be like the good parts of my father, but I didn't want to be like that, like the anger. And I was turning out to be that way. I was doing the same things, you know, finding excuses to get into fights and kick people's butts, and it wasn't healthy, and all for the wrong reasons. So after college, I went into the army, had an opportunity to go in as an officer because of my college degree, and my father's words were always ringing in the back of my head and in my ears. He said, "Look, son, if you want to be a leader, you first must know what it means to follow." So I enlisted, enlisted in the army, and

• 1:49:11Speaker 03

  Had a chance to to learn some stuff in the army. Um, very short period of time, you know, people will always go back and say, oh, you're this hero. I'm not a hero. I know I'm not a hero. Because I know what a real hero is, and most of those heroes aren't here to tell their story. You know, I suffer from really bad, bad imposter syndrome because people see you in uniform, they see the pictures of you in, you know, various situations. And they're like, oh, my God, that's you're so brave. No, there's people out there that had a hell of a lot worse that did a lot more than me. You know, the real heroes are are the guys and gals that aren't here to tell their story. Um, it's the it's the families that are left behind that have to have the Christmases and birthdays

• 1:49:51Speaker 03

  without without the service member and going to PTA meetings and cooking dinners every night and doing homework. Those are the heroes. Um, what I did was easy, comparatively speaking. You know, the real hero is the female helicopter pilot who's low on fuel, but she's not going to leave her little ducklings behind, so she continues to stay on the LZ and stay and stay and stay and takes round after round after round until finally the helicopter gets shot down out of the sky. Right? That's the hero. So all this other bullshit and people come by, oh, Lou, you're a hero. Save that shit for somebody who actually believes it. I'm not a hero. I'm just a patriot doing his job. Um, so, long story short, um, in the army for a little bit, and then I got recruited out of there into a to a special program.

• 1:50:35Speaker 03

  Uh, they called it special. Maybe it was, but for different reasons. Uh, I am proof you do not have to be intelligent to be an intelligence. Uh, let me just say that. Uh, but it was an opportunity that I that that I relished. Um, so I joined a special activities program. Did that for a while. During that process of the recruitment is when Gene Lesman came into my my life and I learned a little bit about the remote viewing program, you might say. Um, and then, um, spent my time early in my career doing counterinsurgency, counter guerrilla operations and some counter narcotics support, uh, mostly against in Latin America, because my language being Spanish. Mm-hmm.

• 1:51:16Speaker 03

  Um, so think of FARC, right, and ELN and Tupac Amaru and Cinderoluminoso and stuff like that. Um, if I love, it was probably, you're probably too young for this, but we had something called Plan Colombia that was arguably probably not so effective. Um, what was that? Plan Colombia was a US government effort. Usually with Charlie 3rd of the 7th Special Forces. There was a DMZ area, Demilitarized Zone, between Colombia and Fuerzas Armadas Revolución de Colombia, FARC. It's terrorist organization. They call themselves guerrillas, but they did bad stuff. Kidnappings and dope and stuff like that. So there was this demilitarized zone and you had these three areas.

• 1:51:59Speaker 03

  Tres Esquinas, API and La Randa, where these cities were. Where we had SF and intel people doing counterinsurgency, counter-terrorist missions. Where we were trying to pump in a lot of American resources and money and support to help the Colombian government get rid of the FARC. Again, this is back in the days. So this is, you know, late 90s, stuff like that. So we were involved in stuff like that. Then, long story short, a little later, 9/11 happened. And very shortly thereafter, I found myself in some weird place in the middle of nowhere, and it was Pakistan, called K2, Kashykanabad. And you probably remember that place a bit.

• 1:52:44Speaker 03

  It was, it was crazy. Spent a little time there and then- What were you doing there? Prepping to go down south. We were, I was only there for maybe four or five days and then I was making things smoking into Kandahar.

• 1:52:58Speaker 03

  Back in 2001. Anyways, long story short, I digress.

• 1:53:04Speaker 03

  Spent the next years and years after that- Who were you attached to? Special agent. So we were with J. Sotif Dagger. Good. So we had a small intel. That's where I met General Mattis for the first time. Incredible human being. Nice. Yeah, yeah. But anyways, long story short, found myself there in the Middle East quite a bit. And then Iraq cooked off and I did some work with that effort. And then- I wound up promoting myself to a desk job. So I went from being a special agent in charge and running counterintelligence, counterespionage, counterterrorism operations, some cross-border operation stuff, uh, into getting a, a job in DC.

• 1:53:48Speaker 03

  Um, kind of what happens, you get, you get promoted to a point where they pull you out of the field and think, okay, now, now you're going to manage budgets, right? And, and stuff like that and personnel. So I did that. Um, and then it was in 2008, I was at the, at the time, the Director of National Intelligence, uh, as a, a senior intel official there. And, uh, the commute was killing me. I lived on this little tiny island called Kent Island in the middle of the Chesapeake Bay, which was great to raise a family, right? That's having daughters, kind of giving them a normal life, they can ride their bikes, you don't have to worry about crazy people in the town. Um, but my commute was terrible. So if I, if you know a little bit where the direct DNI is, it's actually past the CIA. It's right past Langley. And the commute was like three hours each way from me.

• 1:54:31Speaker 03

  And so I was sometimes in the car getting into coming from work than I was actually at work. Uh, it was brutal. So I had an opportunity to come back to the Pentagon for a one-year JDA joint duty assignment. Um, and that's when Clapper's like, you know, I need somebody to, to run, um, law enforcement and intelligence integration. We want to get local law enforcement somehow figure out how do we get national level intelligence, counterterrorism information that's classified down to a level where people can do something with it, but they don't have a security clearance. So how do you do it, right? So you create this tear line and stuff like that. So I was brought back for that and very immediately thereafter, um, is two people came in to my office. I was in Crystal City at the time at a, at a particular location.

• 1:55:15Speaker 03

  They still don't want me to talk about, so I won't. But beautiful corner office. And, um, two people come in, talk to me and say, hey, you know, we know you've got some background in this and that. And early in my career, I forgot to tell you this, I did some work, uh, on UASs. So unmanned aerial systems, so drones, um, all the different types of drones that we had at the time, which were fundamentally pretty basic actually. But I did some of that. I did some advanced, uh, avionics protection and technology, high energy laser technology, um, first stage, second stage, uh, solid and liquid rocket booster motor engines, um, some space platforms. So when they came and talked to me, they say, hey, we know you have a, a CI background,

• 1:55:59Speaker 03

  uh, and you know, we'd like you to consider working with us in a special project. Didn't know at all what it was, had no idea. And after several of those meetings, I said, "Look, our director would like to meet you." So I said, "Okay, sure." We set up a meeting and I went to another undisclosed location where they were, he was at. I remember going up there and it was so bizarre. He is the epitome of a true, whatever you think of rocket scientists in your brain, that's who this guy was. Kind of disheveled hair, tie a little crooked, glasses. And he happened to be, at the time, the US government's premier rocket scientist. Like, for real, real. Like, the best rocket scientist in the US government. Super, super, super smart. And we had our conversation, then he looked at me towards the very end.

• 1:56:44Speaker 03

  He says, "So I gotta ask you." Yeah. Says, "What do you think about UFOs?"

• 1:56:50Speaker 03

  So I thought about him, I looked at him, I told him the truth. "I don't." And he says, "Well, what do you mean? You don't believe in them?" "I didn't say that." "You asked me, 'What do I think about UFOs?'" My response is, "I don't think about them because I don't have the time, I don't have the luxury. I'm too busy, you know, doing other stuff and chasing bad guys and stuff like that. I don't think about them." And he looked at me and he said, "That's fair enough." He says, "But let me give you some advice." Actually, he might have even said, "Let me warn you." He says, "Don't let your analytic bias get the best of you." "Because what you learn here may challenge that." And at this point, I still didn't know what they were looking at. I had no idea, but he just said UFO out of the blue. I'm like, "What?" And this whole time, the two people that had come to my office were telling me,

• 1:57:34Speaker 03

  "This is very sensitive, this is very sensitive. We can't tell you what it's about, but our boss can." And they needed somebody with counterintelligence experience to run the counterintelligence and security aspect for their portfolio because they were worried that the Russians and Chinese were trying to expose them. Which, I get it, you know, if America's running a secret UFO program, yeah, the Russians will want to know. So very shortly thereafter, I realized the true focus of ATIP. And it was to look at, and realized at that point, the US government was taking very, very seriously encounters of UAP over controlled military airspace and over our sensitive facilities. And the more we looked into it, the more we realized, not only was it real, but it's a real national security issue.

• 1:58:18Speaker 03

  Like, we got real, we got real stuff happening where these, I've got another document here. These things actually interfered with our ability to, for a nuclear strike kit. Capability, I mean, think about that, right? Or restrict our ability to launch if we're attacked by the Russians. The UAP was able to turn off an entire flight of nukes. Now, what's a flight of nukes? Think of a Christmas tree light, where each light is a military, is a nuclear silo, and you've got this kind of central command post. Well, they were all taken offline by a UAP. And by the way, one of the intelligence reports, I have, and I can say, I can read it to you. It's not conjecture. It's like, oh, well, maybe.

• 1:58:59Speaker 03

  No, they saw the UAP, and all of a sudden, boom, the entire flight goes down. And only when the UFO left, did the nukes come back online. And if that's not scary enough, we had intelligence reports that the same thing happened in Russia, but there, they were turned onto a ready position. Like, where ours were turned off, theirs were turned on. Wow. Yeah, so we had serious concerns. And while OSAP was looking at other stuff as well regarding the ranch, my focus was really the national security issue of, look, it's very simple. We have a capability, a technology that's been demonstrated that can enter our airspace completely unchallenged, of unknown origin, and who has, seems to be interested in our

• 1:59:41Speaker 03

  military equities, our military capabilities, and, oh, by the way, has demonstrated an ability to interfere with our nuclear technologies. Now, if that's not a national security issue, or a Department of Defense mission, or an intelligence mission is, then I don't know what is, right? That's the very definition of a national security threat. So that was what, that was the impetus, I think, for a lot of my colleagues in mind. And now, you know, being the new kid on the block, I'm kind of walking around with like, oh, my gosh, wow, wow, wow, that's real? Wait a minute, Roswell's real? You know, and my, these scientists that have been, you know, there forever, and part of other, or their efforts with the US government, kind of putting their hand on my shoulder, be like, yeah, you're gonna learn a lot here, buddy. Buckle up, it's gonna be a wild ride. And, boy, were they right.

• 2:00:24Speaker 03

  I worked with some of America's finest in that capacity, really, really good people. And then, in 2017, on October 4th, I resigned from my beloved department. Why did you resign? So...

• 2:00:46Speaker 03

  Boy, I have to backtrack here. There was an aerospace defense contractor that had agreed to surrender their crash retrieval material to us because we were the government, we're running the program. We had a facility specially built at SAPF level, SAPF facility level. And so they said, here's a catch, you just need, because we have this existing memorandum from the Secretary of the Air Force saying we can't, we have to, we have to possess the stuff. If you can get another memo from the Secretary of the Air Force saying we can give it to you, we'll give it to you because we, this is a liability. At this point, we're keeping the lights on, it's very expensive, we don't want to deal with this anymore. You can have the material, we've exploited what we can exploit from it. The problem is Secretary of the Air Force didn't want to play ball.

• 2:01:29Speaker 03

  So along comes Mattis and thank God Trump gets there, brings Mattis in, I'm like, my old friend's back. If we can't get a memorandum of approval from the Secretary of the Air Force, I'll just go above him, I'll just go straight to SecDef, I'll just go to Daddy Mattis, you know, and say, hey Jim, I need some help. But you know too, how command and control works and we understand chain of command. So I was always very careful never to just intercept the boss and be like, hey boss, I need to talk to you. Because I had many levels above me that I would have to go through. The problem is my direct, one of my direct supervisors at the time, I knew this but nobody else did, had several IG investigations against him. So I couldn't trust him. And so what I did is I went around him and I was briefing with the concurrence of the

• 2:02:13Speaker 03

  Secretary's front office, I was briefing the Secretary's staff, that his direct, the White House advisor, National Security Council advisor, and another advisor who I'm not allowed to say who they worked for, well, say they worked for the CIA, I can't say who they were. There were the three head people for the Secretary, they're up in the Secretary's suite, if you've been there, you know what I'm talking about, right there on the E-ring, and on the river entrance. And so I was briefing them on a weekly basis, weekly basis, yeah, this is important, I got the pilots coming in, I have the radar operators coming in, I have the reports, I've got the documents, I've got the photographs, I've got the videos, I've got the briefings, I've got, you know, a stack of crap this big every time coming in. And they're like, yeah, this is important. The problem is... We can't brief the Secretary of Defense just yet.

• 2:02:58Speaker 03

  Like, well, you can't wait. He has to know. Because if something happened, we already getting, we had these ships, the Roosevelt, that's being literally stalked by UAP on a daily basis. I mean, I have these emails on SipperNet saying, "Hey Lou, I can't keep people below deck forever. What do you want me to do?" These, they're all over the ship, right? So, I'm like, "Okay, don't worry. The Calvert is coming. We're working this. We're gonna, we're gonna get you the relief you're looking for. I got you." The problem is that people in the head shed didn't want to do anything until the boss, until we had a, at the time, our under-Secretary of Defense for Intelligence, the USDI, the head senior principal staff assistant for the Secretary for all things intelligence, wasn't a Senate-confirmed person. So they wanted to wait, and wait, and wait, until they got somebody in there, Senate-confirmed,

• 2:03:42Speaker 03

  brief the USDI, who then we would brief Secretary Mattis. I kept telling them, "Guys, don't let bureaucracy get in your way. Don't do it. We cannot afford the wait. He needs to know now that what's happening in the field, I can't keep a lid on it anymore. I can't, it's gonna be, everybody's gonna know this." And, um, I also think there may have been some, and to protect the boss, which I totally get. You know, nobody wants to be the one to tell the boss, "Hey, look, we got a problem, boss. There's something in our skies. We don't know what it is. We don't know how it works. We don't know where it's from. We don't know who's behind the wheel to know, by the way, it's interested in our stuff." It's not a great conversation to have with somebody, you know, especially like Chaos, Mad Dog Mattis, or others call him Chaos. Um, he wants answers. And if you ever worked with a guy in the field, you know,

• 2:04:27Speaker 03

  General Mattis is a very serious guy, very learned. He's a guy who wants more information, not less. And then last but not least, I suspect what they didn't want to do is give the boss some information, only to be asked a week later by the media, "Have you ever been briefed on UFOs?" And he would have to say for the record, "Yeah, I've been briefed on UFOs," right? So, there's many reasons for it, and, and looking back, I can understand it. But at the time, I was very frustrated. And so, I knew that the only way I'd be able to get the Secretary's attention, without breaking that chain of command, I could have walked in any time I wanted to, into his front office, and I have. But you and I both know, you don't break the chain of command, you, you can't break the rules to enforce the rules. You can't do it. It doesn't work that way. You can't break the law to enforce the law.

• 2:05:09Speaker 03

  And so I was very cognizant of that, so I did what, what most people do in my, my situation.

• 2:05:15Speaker 03

  I resigned and I knew that my resignation, I addressed my resignation memo directly to him, knowing that they would not be able to stop that. And they tried, by the way, even that they tried.

• 2:05:27Speaker 03

  But I told him very point blank in my resignation memo, I said, sir, you need to be aware, this is real. And this has the ability to impact our nuclear capabilities, our military readiness, and it's a problem you're gonna have to deal with.

• 2:05:41Shawn Ryan?

  Had you been in touch with him since then?

• 2:05:43Speaker 03

  I have not. No, I think he lives overseas right now with his lady.

• 2:05:50Speaker 03

  But there's some back-channel discussions that occurred. It's for him to say, not me. I respect him tremendously. He was a great leader in the military. Politically, I don't know, I'm not talking politics, right? I'm not a politician. But he was a very effective leader. And let's not forget, look, almost a year later today, he resigned too, right? That's what you do. When you can't fix something internally, you don't become a problem inside. You leave. You do what you're supposed to do and say, okay, aye aye, sir. And you roll out. And then if you wanna speak your piece outside, fine, but don't cause problems inside the chain of command. That is unforgivable. And I agree with that.

• 2:06:33Speaker 03

  I know some people differ with me on that perspective, but it's the way I feel.

• 2:06:37Shawn Ryan?

  So Lou, we keep talking about UFOs and UAPs interfering with our nuclear arsenal. What are we doing to combat that?

• 2:06:48Speaker 03

  Well, I think this new administration's gonna do a lot.

• 2:06:51Shawn Ryan?

  Like what?

• 2:06:51Speaker 03

  Well, let me let the administration first get a handle on what's going on and decide what they wanna do. You know, a nuclear facility isn't just Department of Defense, it's not just Air Force. You have Department of Energy there. You have all sorts of different organizations there that are part of the calculus, right? So you've got a lot of equities. First of all, they need to get a handle on what's going on. And by the way, for the record, I am extremely optimistic about this administration. I think this is the best thing that could have happened to this country.

• 2:07:25Speaker 03

  I get a lot of shit for it. But this is something, I know several individuals on the cabinet, I'm not gonna say who, that are very interested in transparency for the American people, like sincerely, really want transparency, while also understanding we have to protect national secrets, right?

• 2:07:44Speaker 03

  So I think, I think, I think there is going to be some things done that will prevent any type of, of, hopefully, any type of interference in the future of our nuclear equities. Now, that's not to say, I mean, if something is super highly advanced and they're using a capability we don't understand, then how do you defend against that, right?

• 2:08:05Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I mean, you know, they, now they have this, you know, I interviewed Joe Lonsdale, Epirus, the directed EMP weapon that can take out a hundred drones plus at once.

• 2:08:15Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:08:16Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, is that something we could implement?

• 2:08:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, and we already should have implemented it. You know, this last administration dragged their feet, "No, we can't do anything about it." "Hell, you can. Yes, you can. And you should." You know? Um, I, I, this is my frustration. When we allow politics to drive national level decisions involving security without having the expertise in-house or resident, then everything becomes a, a political calculus. And that's fine until you talk about national security. There has to be an emphasis on national security, especially with our nuclear equities.

• 2:08:53Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what do you make of this, was that, that, that video, the whistleblower that saw, I think it was an Air Force special operations guy that came out recently, the whistleblower that came out about the, the egg-shaped craft that we picked up? There's a little video on night vision, we're gonna overlay it right now on the video, but, I mean, what do you make of this? He says it's an alien craft, which...

• 2:09:16Speaker 03

  Well, I, I, first of all, anytime a, a veteran comes out, I, I, I always give them deference. Why? Because they earned it. I don't care if they're wrong or not. They earned that privilege to speak their mind. Secondly, he is who he says he is. He is a former special operator. That is fact. Uh, so whether you are a Navy SEAL, or you're an Air Force PJ, or you're an Army special operator, um, you know, these are folks that are not just trained observers, as you know, but they're highly skilled, right? And you go through a battery of psychological evaluations, and sometimes polygraphs and drug testing, and, you know, these are really representing the best of the best, tip of the spear. And that's why they're the tip of the spear.

• 2:09:52Shawn Ryan?

  Where was that retrieved?

• 2:09:53Speaker 03

  Uh, you know what? I'm gonna let him, I don't wanna talk too much about his story because it's really telling me, you ask me about him as a person. I believe he is speaking his truth. I believe he is doing what he believes is correct. And for that, I support him. I was not there for that recovery. I was not there when he decided to come out.

• 2:10:13Shawn Ryan?

  Had you seen anything like that before?

• 2:10:15Speaker 03

  There's reports of a vehicle shaped exactly like... Lonnie Zamora, I mean, read the case. He was a cop. And he talked about an egg-shaped craft. Just like that, back in the 60s, right? So, you know, the morphology of this is not anything new. The question is, is that what it was? Or was it, you know, something else? I don't know, but he... The fact that he's willing to come out publicly and have us tell this conversation, I think is important. And I hope that other people do too. And people come out and start poo-pooing him. Well, you wonder why more whistleblowers don't come out. Look at the way I was treated.

• 2:10:49Shawn Ryan?

  I'm not poo-pooing him, I'm just saying...

• 2:10:51Speaker 03

  No, no, no, no, no, of course, not... I don't mean you, I mean that rhetorically. People in general will say, "Well, you know, how come we don't have more whistleblowers?" "Well, look when the whistleblowers come out, how they're treated. Look at poor Dave Grush. Here's a guy who I served with. We were at Space Force together, working the UFO topic. Working for the UAP Task Force. That's what we were doing, it was our job, right? He comes out 24 hours after testifying in Congress. What happens? Two guys from the CIA apparently leak his information, medical information, and try to use his PTSD against him. You know what? F you. Low-life piece of crap person that would use somebody's combat PTSD against him. That is, you know, you who never done nothing, never popped nothing, never served nobody,

• 2:11:36Speaker 03

  you don't deserve it. Get your ass in the corner, because that guy was a hero. He actually did the right thing. I saw him every day. And by the way, everything he said was absolutely... Everything he told Congress was correct. And a lot more he knows that he hasn't said. And so what's his reward for speaking his truth? What happened? Oh, this guy, alcoholic, oh, this guy, PTSD. I mean, tha- that is the reaction by certain elements within a corrupt system. And by the way, that's my real issue. That's what motivates me every single day to come out. It's not just the UAP topic. We've got a very significant issue on our hands right now. Uh, and it's been there for a while. It's be- it's become a cancer in, in our government.

• 2:12:20Speaker 03

  And that concerns me because that, that, that, that threatens everything. That threatens everybody. Um, and, you know, unless you ask me, I won't go down that road. But, but that to me is a much greater national security issue than UAP's ever were.

• 2:12:37Shawn Ryan?

  What do you think he's open by coming out with this? You think he's forced, you s- do you think he's trying to force the government to reveal something?

• 2:12:43Speaker 03

  Yeah, he's trying to, trying to do what I did and other colleagues of mine. Let America know the truth without getting in trouble, without being thrown into jail and wearing an orange jumpsuit. You know, the problem is that there's a very sophisticated capability to try to smear people like that. I've been fa- wait till the real truth starts to hit. People are gonna go crazy. When people find out the length that some individuals in this system were willing to go to, to keep us quiet. You wait till that, wait till that shoe drops. Uh, we're, we're, that's coming out.

• 2:13:12Shawn Ryan?

  You think it's gonna?

• 2:13:13Speaker 03

  Oh, I know it's coming out, absolutely. Yes, sir.

• 2:13:15Shawn Ryan?

  Is there any relationship between that and, I mean, I don't, did you watch my interview with Sam Schumate? The Matthews Livelberger?

• 2:13:22Speaker 03

  You have to forgive me, Chris.

• 2:13:25Shawn Ryan?

  It's okay.

• 2:13:25Speaker 03

  Um, Sean.

• 2:13:26Shawn Ryan?

  You know about Matthews Livelberger is the Cybertruck. He's former Green Beret.

• 2:13:31Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:13:31Shawn Ryan?

  Blew up the Cybertruck.

• 2:13:32Speaker 03

  I know, I know the story very well.

• 2:13:34Shawn Ryan?

  Okay.

• 2:13:34Speaker 03

  And I know what you did. I didn't see the interview, I apologize.

• 2:13:37Shawn Ryan?

  It's fine.

• 2:13:37Speaker 03

  But I know very well that scenario and the email you received and the information you received.

• 2:13:42Shawn Ryan?

  In the email, he talks about gravitic propulsion systems. Is there any relationship between that and what the soft veteran just revealed in the, in the short night vision video?

• 2:13:55Speaker 03

  There is a relationship to, to the story. If it turns out that that video is authentic and legitimate, then the answer is an absolute yes. But first, that video.

• 2:14:08Speaker 03

  Again, I wasn't there to shoot the video. So I want to be very careful what I say. But anti-gravitics has always been the holy grail for us. And there's several reasons for it. But if you can understand and somehow control and master anti-gravitics, then that is going, whoever figures that out is going to put you about 200 years ahead of everybody else. And that's, that's, that's big.

• 2:14:38Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:14:39Speaker 03

  That's big.

• 2:14:42Shawn Ryan?

  We kind of talked about this at the beginning.

• 2:14:45Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. You know, anti-gravitics is, is the holy grail. All sorts of things, not just being able to fly without any obvious signs of propulsion or without wings and control surfaces. Again, spacetime. If you understand anti-gravity and the warping of spacetime, then, then distance doesn't mean so much to you. Time is a little more flexible. And so there's a reason why the US government doesn't even like to talk about it. Or any other government.

• 2:15:17Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, we looked into it. It's just a science fiction term.

• 2:15:22Speaker 03

  Is it?

• 2:15:22Shawn Ryan?

  It's all we could find. Couldn't find anything.

• 2:15:29Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's an interesting world we live in.

• 2:15:33Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, it sounds like you know about this. Do you know about this?

• 2:15:36Speaker 03

  I, I, you know, when it comes to, to certain capabilities, I, I'm not going to go there. You know, people just have to see. I don't want to, I don't want to be, look, I'm trying to do this in a, in a constructive way, not a destructive way. I'm extremely loyal. People think I left the department out of disloyalty. No, I left the department out of loyalty.

• 2:16:01Speaker 03

  I wanna, I wanna, I wanna do the right thing without, I wanna have the conversation without being destructive. And the reason why I left the Pentagon was really just to finish the mission they gave me in the first place.

• 2:16:13Shawn Ryan?

  What about the New Jersey drones?

• 2:16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:16:16Shawn Ryan?

  You know, it's, that came out, what, about a month ago, whenever the

• 2:16:20Speaker 03

  And it wasn't just New Jersey, it was New York, Massachusetts, Florida, California, Oregon, Washington, even in the UK when

• 2:16:27Shawn Ryan?

  And I think it kinda spun out of control. I mean, every asshole with a drone was throwing it up and taking videos of it.

• 2:16:33Speaker 03

  Sure, and I'm not worried about those.

• 2:16:34Shawn Ryan?

  On social media.

• 2:16:35Speaker 03

  My concern is when you have some that have been reported the size of an SUV, or more importantly, aren't blinking, first of all, they're not squawking, there's no transponder on them, uh, which, if there's a large enough commercial drone they're supposed to, then secondly, um, the light patterns were not consistent with, in some cases, not with navigational aviation lights, and then third, they were silent, and fourth, when we actually deploy drones to try to intercept, individuals try to do that, there seemed to be an anti-drone capability onboard, meaning some drones were disabled and fell out of the sky, the ones that were flown to try to intercept these other drones. Now, let's talk about drones for a second in New Jersey. Most people are familiar with the quadcopters, commercially available hobbyists have quad,

• 2:17:18Speaker 03

  little quadcopters, they fly for about fifteen minutes, maybe a mile or two, and then they have to be recovered. Now imagine what it takes to fly a drone that's the size of an SUV. Let's look at technologically just for a second. Most drones are line of sight, RF, right, radio frequency, line of sight, fly the drone, it sees me, I see it, and it's getting my signal, I can control it. If you wanna go beyond the horizon, beyond line of sight, right, you now need infrastructure to do that. You need a repeating capability, meaning an airborne capability or a land-based capability that will take that signal and then retransmit it out to your drone, because you're now over the horizon where these signals are gonna reach, so you need an artificial way, whether it's a balloon, or a satellite, or a tower, to relay that signal, otherwise

• 2:18:03Speaker 03

  the thing doesn't fly, it'll crash, so you gotta, you gotta transmit that, that takes infrastructure. Then if you're gonna have a drone that flies more than fifteen minutes, in some cases five, six, seven hours, and not fly two miles, but fly over a hundred miles,

• 2:18:17Speaker 03

  Think about that. What, there's only two types of fuel we use for drones. One is internal combustion engine, like, like, you know, jet fuel maybe you use or gasoline for a propeller, internal combustion engine, or battery. Now, batteries don't last that long, and they're heavy as hell. So, and the fuel, fuel is even more expensive. You want liquid fuel, that's even more, that's even heavier. So, so, loiter capabilities, the reason why our drones now, like a Reaper or something like that, are fixed wing, because they're gonna stay flying for a long time. And so, a helicopter, a rotary blade drone can't do that. You don't have that loiter capability, so you have a fixed wing capability. That's not what these were. They weren't fixed wing capabilities. And so, if you want to fly a drone, even one of those, you have

• 2:18:59Speaker 03

  to have someone to launch it, someone to control it, someone to recover it, someone to maintain it, someone to refuel it or re-energize it, right? So now you're talking a group of individuals that have to be on flying just a single drone with that type of capability. Where are you gonna launch it from? Without being seen or detected? Where are you gonna recover it from? Without, not a single one being recovered, right? Completely in the dark. You know, that's, now you're talking about, okay, well, maybe I can launch it from a boat. Okay, well, how far are you gonna be in international waters? And are you sure the coast guard's not gonna see you and your, and your ship identifier and all these other things? I mean, as some people reported, having a quote-unquote "mothership", that's a big profile in the water. Okay, well, maybe they're launching them from submarines. Okay, great, but then there's another challenge with that, too. Is a submarine surfacing

• 2:19:43Speaker 03

  to launch them? Or are these things being launched subsurface? Meaning like, like, the old Polaris missile, right? Boes out of a tube and flies. Now, what about when it lands? And what about if one crashes? Because, you know, it's technology, right? It could be interfered with, electronic jamming capabilities. You know, are you willing to take that risk and all of a sudden now you've lost a drone and it's paraded like the Russians did with the U-2 back in the 1960s when we were flying the U-2 over Mother Russia? No, that's a PR disaster. So, there's a lot of things that are inconsistent with some of the descriptions of some of these UAP, uh, or some of these UASs or drones. Um, and I think, you know, the fact that we don't know is proof positive why we need

• 2:20:25Speaker 03

  to know. For the government to come out, this last administration, I mean, this is, this is, this is embarrassing to say to the American people. Yeah, y'all are seeing stuff. Every single one of these are being flown in a legal way. And they're all either high-est drones or manned aircraft. First of all, you don't shut down a military airbase because something's being flown over your base legally. Get the hell out of town. We're not that stupid, right? And when you have all these people that are reporting, to include members of Congress, don't tell me that these are all legitimately... Because if they were, then where's the paperwork from the FAA? Where's the squat code on this? How come they're not showing up on FlightAware?

• 2:21:08Speaker 03

  Right? Nothing. And then they'll say, "Oh, these are all being flown legally, but we don't know whose they are." Wait a minute. Then how can you say they're being flown legally if you don't know who's they belong to? Right? Even the statement itself is contradictory. And saying, "No, no, folks, just don't worry about it. Nothing to see here." You know, that's the same kind of crap they tried to pull with other things, like with the Afghanistan withdrawal. Don't get me started. I mean, you keep feeding a bunch of line of people, a bunch of crap to people, you think that they're gonna get used to eating crap? No. They're gonna get pissed off and throw the plate in your face.

• 2:21:39Shawn Ryan?

  Uh huh.

• 2:21:39Speaker 03

  And that's what we saw with this last election. The people got tired of being lied to and constantly being told something that was exact opposite of what was happening. Politics aside, I don't care if you're Democrat or Republican, nobody needs to do that. Just tell the Americans the truth. And look, if you don't have an answer, say that too. But don't lie, don't insult the American public. You know, come on, that's not why we put people in office.

• 2:22:01Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, what are they? What are they? What do you think they are?

• 2:22:06Speaker 03

  Well, I think there might be multiple things. It might be a combination of things. You might have... So in the old days, if you had like, for example, if you breached the perimeter of a military base, you would have some jeeps come out and maybe a helicopter to try to find what's going on. But we're more sophisticated than that. We now have drone capability ourselves. And so if we detect something on the perimeter, break in the perimeter, we can just launch drones like that, automatic. We can geofence the whole place and automatically have drones take off without even a human being involved to figure out what's going on. And by the way, it's a lot cheaper. You could cover a lot more area using a drone than you can with one or two helicopters. So imagine a scenario where maybe... Some people reporting some sort of really anomalous issue, a UAP perhaps.

• 2:22:50Speaker 03

  And then the the response by us is to launch drones to try to figure out what's going on. And so you have some people reporting something that doesn't look like a drone. Size of an SUV that disappears, comes in and out of the water potentially, stalks coast guard boats in the middle of the ocean, right, up to 20 at a time. And then our response is to launch drones to figure out what these are. And then people report, no, it was whirring, I could hear it making sound, it was blinking lights like a plane, it was definitely a drone. They both could be right. Both could actually be happening. Now, I'm not saying, for the record, I'm not saying that's what's occurring. But that could explain why you have this varying degrees of explanation between eyewitnesses.

• 2:23:33Speaker 03

  Someone says it's huge, it's been loiting for hours and hours, it doesn't look like anything I've ever seen before, and then someone says, oh, no, a little tiny thing with whirring blades and blinky lights. So it to ask you a question, what is it? And is it one or the other? It actually could be both. And it could also be other options that we haven't yet considered. But again, this is why it's so important. This is why I've been been trying to emphasize with the new administration to get a handle on this, because this will be a PR disaster. It will be, if it already has been, if we don't get a handle on it. So there's been several recommendations that have been floated up to the new administration to help President Trump get a handle on this and and and do exactly like he said he's going to do, and I have full faith in God.

• 2:24:12Shawn Ryan?

  What are some of the other possibilities that we haven't considered?

• 2:24:15Speaker 03

  Foreign adversarial capability, it's not a blue force technology, it's a red force technology that's being used to to assess our reaction to certain things.

• 2:24:23Shawn Ryan?

  I mean, I don't I think that was that was brought up a lot of, there was a lot of chatter that it might be Iranian drones, a lot of, I mean, there have been reports that that's why the inauguration was moved indoors, was an Iranian drone threat.

• 2:24:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, could be Chinese. Then there's also the other alternative which you discussed. Maybe it's it's a blue force response to a threat and we don't want to panic the public. You know, we've got a broken arrow situation on our hands. We've got a lost nuke, right? Or maybe some bad guy figured out how to do something and put something together, you know, under our noses. That's a scary thought, you know? Or it could be someone trying to figure out, look, you know, let's see the response. If we wanted, if I was a bad guy and I wanted to to use a drone to spray some sort of chemical or biological agent, right? Um, how would we defend against that? Could we detect it, you know, an airborne aerosol attack? And so how do we detect it? Well, we'll send up some, we'll send some drones out

• 2:25:16Speaker 03

  to spray something, nothing bad, just something, a tracer that we can pick up with other drones and send other drones out to say, yeah, we can actually pick this up and and this technology works, right? So there's, there's lots of different possible, excuse me, there's lots of different possibilities and we really need to consider them all.

• 2:25:32Shawn Ryan?

  I don't understand why we wouldn't have used one of those directed MP weapons.

• 2:25:36Speaker 03

  Probably we could have and we should have and we didn't. And this is my point. This is, it is, it is so ridiculous. And all it takes is someone in the administration say, you know, FAA, look, I will tell you, when I was in in Pentagon, I was part of a working group, the US Air Domain Working Group, and it was co-sponsored by the FAA and Department of Homeland Security, DHS. And even when I was there, like 2013 and 2014, they were still arguing who was responsible for what. When you say, okay, who's responsible for drones? No one wanted to accept it. Uh, it, it's, it's, it's ridiculous, you know? And this is why I think the president is going to see probably some, maybe executive orders come out saying from now on, okay, you're, you're going to do this.

• 2:26:20Speaker 03

  And if there's a drone in the sky, the buck stops with you. And yes, you can shoot it down. No, if it's not ours and we're not squawking, then shame on you, zap it, you know? If it turns out to be a, a government contractor, well, you should have listed your flight path. Sorry, you know, sorry, your million dollar capability crashed. That was your fault, not mine. So, um, yes, we do have the capability. Very easy to do that.

• 2:26:43Shawn Ryan?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:26:43Speaker 03

  But we don't.

• 2:26:44Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:26:45Speaker 03

  Just like the Chinese spy balloon, right? How many had went over the, the northern continental United States before we actually saw one and shot it down?

• 2:26:55Shawn Ryan?

  Oh, I was, I was really upset about that. It did turn out that we did extract. We did extract some type of intelligence out of that balloon.

• 2:27:03Speaker 03

  Well, you know, the story is now, right? That we've been known about these flights for a long time.

• 2:27:07Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:07Speaker 03

  And it never got reported up. So that's a break in the chain of command, too. And who had the unilateral authority to make that decision?

• 2:27:13Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah.

• 2:27:13Speaker 03

  I guarantee you, they did not have that authority.

• 2:27:16Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:27:19Shawn Ryan?

  How close are? I mean, what, what is? How concerned are you that China, Russia, Iran? Name enemy of us has this type of technology?

• 2:27:32Speaker 03

  This type, as in the drone technology or the UAP technology?

• 2:27:36Shawn Ryan?

  The UAP.

• 2:27:37Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 2:27:40Speaker 03

  Sean, I am worried. I'm worried particularly with the two big guys, Russia and China. China has already announced through the, uh, Five Continents Initiative to, um, run the entire, be in charge of the entire United Nations effort for, uh, UAP investigations.

• 2:27:58Shawn Ryan?

  They announced what? Can you say that again?

• 2:28:00Speaker 03

  Uh, I think it was the South China Morning Sun. They, they announced through what they call the Five Continents Initiative. China has proposed to the, to the United Nations that they, um, that they, they set up and run the UAP investigation for the United Nations.

• 2:28:21Speaker 03

  Russia has had a long history in this. In fact, right after the Berlin Wall fell down and there was this brief romance period, this marriage kind of honeymoon between the United States and Russia. Remember when that happened, the wall came down? Everybody, actually, you may have been too young. Uh, there was this, this brief period for a few years where, where we were working with KGB. KGB was working with us and they were giving us all their files. And, uh, we gained a lot of insight into their UAP program. Into, into the, into the, well. Better not say it. There's some names, program names that the Russians were involved with involving UAP and it was very precise. They were sharing a lot of intel with us. There was a lot of it.

• 2:29:01Speaker 03

  And even at ATIP, we had a lot of that intel available to us. So we know for a fact Russia and China. We also know for a fact that there were several key allies, five eye partners. I won't say which ones they are because they might get mad. But they were interested and we had actually an information sharing agreement with them. In fact, Japan, two and a half, two years ago, two and a half years ago, came to the United States, two and a half years ago, came to, actually about three years ago now, came to the Pentagon and asked to enter into a bilateral intelligence, information sharing agreement with the United States for the sole purposes of sharing UAP-related

• 2:29:41Shawn Ryan?

  Interesting. Is there any overlap with this information and intel?

• 2:29:47Speaker 03

  When you say overlap, I'm trying to understand what to find.

• 2:29:50Shawn Ryan?

  What I'm asking, are we seeing, are we seeing any similarities?

• 2:29:53Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, all similarities. That's what ATIP did. That's what the five observables were. Yeah, there's similarities.

• 2:29:58Shawn Ryan?

  They don't have totally different shit than we have.

• 2:30:00Speaker 03

  No, well.

• 2:30:02Shawn Ryan?

  It's a little bit different.

• 2:30:03Speaker 03

  When you say they don't have different, are you talking about other nations? I'm sorry, forgive me.

• 2:30:07Shawn Ryan?

  When we're sharing files with Russia or Japan or China, whoever the hell it is, are we seeing similarities in the intel?

• 2:30:14Speaker 03

  Absolutely, yes. The morphology, the velocity, the performance characteristics, the capabilities. Absolutely, we are. Absolutely, we are. What the Italian fighter pilots saw three weeks ago over the Adriatic Sea, we saw four years ago with a Navy Super Hornet pilot. Absolutely.

• 2:30:30Shawn Ryan?

  Okay, okay.

• 2:30:35Shawn Ryan?

  Wow.

• 2:30:39Shawn Ryan?

  How much do you think they know that we don't know?

• 2:30:41Speaker 03

  That's my fear. That's why this is a problem. I don't fear the UAP or the UAP technology. I fear some other country having that technology and using it against us. And here we are, we're not even willing to have a conversation with our own people. And they're totally open about it. They don't give shit. But they're spending lots of money into this topic. So that is part of my concern.

• 2:31:09Shawn Ryan?

  Well, I hope you're right. I hope we start getting some answers.

• 2:31:12Speaker 03

  Well, I, the good news is I think we actually know a lot more than we've admitted. Fortunately.

• 2:31:19Shawn Ryan?

  Is that good news?

• 2:31:20Speaker 03

  I guess it probably is. Well, what it is, it's, it's, it's it's at least, I think, encouraging that we we've been, look we've been looking at UFOs for a long time, brother. This is not new. We have been, we have been involved in this topic since well before Blue Book. I just read you a document, different than 1950. Yeah, there's stuff from the National Security Council, the President, from J. Edgar Hoover, the Director of the CIA, it's all in writing. It's all there. I just sent you a small, little, tiny little snapshot of some of the reporting. There's a bunch of it. So people say, "Well, you know, our government doesn't know anything." Hello, yes, they do. That's just been a recent part of the narrative, so you don't look over there. We've known about it for a long time. We've been investigating. There's, there's documents on official investigations

• 2:32:04Speaker 03

  all the way to the White House on this topic. We got it. So, um, I would tell people, I think, look, here's the good news, because I don't want to be all doom and gloom and goes, "Oh, you're fear mongering and, you know, you're trying to say that things are a threat." No, I'm not. The threat is our lack of knowledge, uh, uh, I'm sorry. The threat is our lack of knowledge on this topic, and our threat is not being transparent with the American people. You can't fix a problem, right? You can't, you can't recover from a problem if you don't identify it in the first place. Um, I think, I think we're at the point now there was a fear for a very long time why our government didn't share this information with the American public. And I understand, I don't agree with it, for the record, but I can respect it and understand it.

• 2:32:49Speaker 03

  At the height of the Cold War, what was going on? Well, you had this, this, this, this winner takes all approach to a, to a chess match between then Soviet Union and the United States. And we had a lot of things going on. We had civil unrest, and we had conflicts over here in Vietnam and other places, and and you had a nuke, real nuke issue. Russians had nukes, we had nukes, and we're building more and more and more and more and more, and possibly go to war, and uh, there was this concern that, you know, here's this real threat from Russia, and then you've got this other thing going on here that is interesting, but doesn't show any obvious signs of being a threat, yet. So, why don't we focus on this issue here, and then we'll kind of, maybe at some point, address that issue?

• 2:33:35Speaker 03

  Then there's also the notion of you don't admit there's a problem until you have a solution. Look, governments are solution oriented. That's what we pay them to do, to have solutions. And let me give you a real case and point to this. In the 1960s, it's actually started in the 50s, the CIA and Lockheed at the time, developed the U-2 spy plane. And the idea of this plane was to fly faster and higher than any other plane we ever had, and fly in contravention to what? The Russian agreement we had, the treaty with the Russians, that we would not fly manned reconnaissance missions over mainland Russia. And what did we do? We did the exact opposite. We actually flew manned reconnaissance missions, but we did it a way where we didn't think they would ever, ever see it. And what happened the first couple of missions? We succeeded.

• 2:34:19Speaker 03

  They didn't, Russians didn't respond. Mission success. They didn't even know we were there. Or did they? It wasn't until the Russians were able to develop and deploy the SA-2 surface-to-air missile and successfully shoot one down, and parade Powers, who was the pilot, and show the wreckage in front of the United Nations, did the Russians ever admit that they were tracking every single flight. It wasn't until they could neutralize the threat, did they ever admit, even to the Russian people, that there was a problem. Because that's what governments do. And so, is it possible that some people in our government said, "Look, this is just too much for most people to absorb right now.

• 2:35:04Speaker 03

  We don't know how to deal with it. Let's not cause panic." There were some studies that were done by the United States government, commissioned by some, to some think tanks by the US government. And in those studies, they said, "What would happen with the American people if we disclosed the presence of UFOs?" And the answer was, "You can't. You will, you will cause civil unrest throughout our population." And people say, "No, that's silly. You're not going to cause panic and civil unrest." Well, look, it's happened before where people got freaked out when the Dead Sea Scrolls were first, I think it was 1947, right? They were discovered, the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was like years and years and years later before the translation of those Dead Sea Scrolls were publicly released. Now, why is that? Because they were afraid it was going to contradict

• 2:35:49Speaker 03

  the current understanding of the Judeo-Christian belief system. We don't want, this will upset people too much. Right? Cause panic, cause anxiety, hysteria at a mass scale, mass scale.

• 2:36:04Speaker 03

  I can understand that, I can understand that mentality, but the reality is, the American people can handle the truth. In fact, the American people deserve the truth. This generation, new generation of young men and women are different than mine. They are different. They, they have access to the entire world on their cell phones, in virtually any language, instantly. If I wanted to go learn something in school, I had to go to the school library, grab a, encyclopedia, that's probably 20 years old, and read a paragraph on something, right? If the page was even there, so that some kid didn't rip it out and put it as part of his book report. Now, you've got the entire world history in the palm of your hands.

• 2:36:47Speaker 03

  So I think this new generation is much more willing and readily able to accept some of these more profound ideas about humans and our existence, our place in this cosmos. They're not causing panic. Most of the young people I talk to, they go, "Meh, yeah, we know aliens are real." "You do?" "Yeah, why not?" "Well, okay, I mean, that's different than when I grew up, and I thought you were crazy." In fact, the American Psychological Association once considered the study or, or research or belief in UFOs as being an extreme form of deviance. Think about that. Same with tattoos, by the way, right? So, um, I think our mentality of our society is changing.

• 2:37:32Speaker 03

  I think, I think we're not, you know, the old saying, "I'm not your father," you know, this is not your father's automobile. I don't, I don't think, I don't think we're in the same place mentally, psychologically, sociologically, theologically than we were in my generation. I think, think with, with where we are as a society, things have fundamentally changed. You know, the way we deal with new information and new ideas. Let's not forget that, in the words of Arthur C. Clarke, right? Any, any sufficient technology, advanced technology appears like magic.

• 2:38:12Speaker 03

  Right, but it's not. It's just, it's just technology. I often tell people, you know, a little exercise, I say, if I, if I think, if I tell you the word parachute, para being a prefix, Latin prefix, meaning above or beside. So if I say parachute, what do you think of? Well, I think of about a device that deploys over my head and helps me get to ground with a, with a thump and not a thud, hopefully, right? And if I say parachute, what do you, I mean, paramedic, what do you think? Well, I think of first responders, something positive, people there to save a life, you know? So, paramedic, parachute. But then when I say paranormal, what happens? Hmm. Ah, you just did it. You did exactly what I, I, most people do. They go, hmm, right? The reason why is because we have been conditioned that word paranormal is spooky,

• 2:38:56Speaker 03

  it's weird. When in reality, everything in science, everything in science is paranormal until it becomes normal. The cell phones that we use and wifi signals and the, and the laptop computers, and all that at one point would have been considered paranormal. And now it's routine, it's not normal. It's just advanced technology. And so, I think with this new, this new, um, generation of young people, they, they realize that. They understand that a lot of things that we grew up thinking strange and weird are, you know, I was at a time, you probably remember, you remember this probably, you're going, well, yeah, you're in the military for this. Do you remember the whole policy of don't ask, don't tell? Uh huh. Right? And people's lives were ruined, and if you, if they suspected you of being

• 2:39:41Speaker 03

  homosexual, that you could lose your entire career and, and be discharged. Oh, that's silly. Who gives a crap if someone's gay? I mean, right? But that was the mentality back then. And man, people were, you lose your career over that shit. Now we look back and say, being patriotic has nothing to do with your sexual orientation. Who gives a shit? Right? Um, but that was real back then, and it affected a lot of people's lives. This new generation, I think, realizes that. They're like, hey, man, you, you guys are really kind of stuck in this old paradigm of, of doing things. Um. You know, maybe you should reconsider and reevaluate. Because at the end of the day, the topic of UFOs and the UAP, UAP aren't going to change. It's here, whatever it is.

• 2:40:24Speaker 03

  The only thing that changes the way that we deal with it, the way we look at it, the way we think about it, the way we handle it, right? We can't change that fact that something exists. I can't change the fact that there's a lion or a tiger or, you know, a hippopotamus on that side of the wall. What I can do is change the way that I view that. Is it a threat or is it an opportunity? Can it hurt me? Well, yeah, but if it's behind a cage, then probably not. And can I learn something from it? And things like that. That's my perspective.

• 2:40:55Speaker 03

  You know, I don't have all the answers. I have some answers that hopefully will continue to be developed and come out in a legal way. I'm not a leaker. I've never disclosed classified information. I still maintain my top secret security clearance with SCI eligibility. I'm not going to jeopardize it. I took an oath to defend this country from all enemies, foreign and domestic, and that's what I'm going to do. And I don't think I need to compromise national security to have this conversation. We've come a long way in the last seven years, and I've said before to people, there's a difference between doing things right and doing things right now. I prefer to do things right. We have one opportunity to do it right. And I think we are making significant headway.

• 2:41:39Speaker 03

  If someone like me were to just come out full Monty and say everything I know, you'll know more information, but you'll never get any more because I'll go to jail and that's it. And so I think there's a balance. I think we can continue to have this conversation, get the members of Congress engaged, support our new administration in their pursuit, dogged pursuit of the truth, while increasing the aperture of transparency and disclosure in a manner that is constructive, not destructive, in a manner that gives the American people what they deserve, the information they deserve, but without compromising any type of national security, equity, or capability. We can do it. Yeah, it's harder. Yeah, it's a lot harder, I know. Ask me how I know. But we're succeeding. We're doing it. We're able to do it. We just got to have a little bit of patience and a little bit of courage.

• 2:42:24Speaker 03

  And I think we're doing it. Look, the fact you and I are having this conversation, you are one of the biggest... Media personalities on the planet. Now, think about that. You now have more people listening to you and your voice on a weekly basis than the major networks of our country for the last 70 years, like ABC, CBS, and NBC. Right? So, so your voice matters, and we're having this conversation. There was a time that people in the media would never talk about this because it was suicide, just like politicians. This topic would be considered political suicide because when you mention UFOs, people think tinfoil hats and Elvis on the mothership and nonsense like that. No, what we're talking about is national security. And we're also talking about the human condition, the way we process information, the way we

• 2:43:09Speaker 03

  handle new paradigms. I've used this before, and I think to its effect, my wife will kill me for saying this, she hates this analogy, but I will submit to you that there are moments in our evolution as a species where these paradigm moments occur, where we change fundamentally our understanding of our reality. And so, one may argue that when we were first coming out of the cave for the very first time and gazing upon the heavens, we realized at that moment that our world has got a lot bigger. Another paradigm moment may be when two people were striking a rock together and all of a sudden a spark flew and they created fire.

• 2:43:54Speaker 03

  And for the first time mankind could illuminate the darkness. And now the monsters hiding behind the trees, well, they were just bushes. Another paradigm moment may have been when mankind was standing on a stony beach and one fisherman says to the other, "You're not going to sail over the horizon." And he says to them, "You can't do that. You're going to fall off the edge. And oh, by the way, there's sea monsters out there, giant kraken, and you're going to get ripped apart." And of course, people laugh about it now, but you know what? It turns out, they were right. There are sea monsters. They're just called giant squid of the Pacific and great white sharks and blue whales, and they're really not monsters, really. They're part of our nature, they're part of our understanding. And so, maybe this topic of UAP... This is just yet another stony beach we're about to sail over the horizon.

• 2:44:36Shawn Ryan?

  Yeah, but we already are with AI.

• 2:44:39Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. I could not agree more. I think you're absolutely correct.

• 2:44:43Shawn Ryan?

  Well, Lou.

• 2:44:45Speaker 03

  I almost forgot to tell you the question you wanted to ask. I'm sorry.

• 2:44:47Shawn Ryan?

  It's been a fascinating interview and I just, it was a real pleasure to have you here and I hope to see you again.

• 2:44:56Speaker 03

  Sean, it's my honor and privilege. You always have a home out in Wyoming. I mean it sincerely. Listen, you're doing great work for our country. You don't need to hear that from me. I know you hear it all the time. But truly, truly, from somebody who's spent a little bit of time in the media,

• 2:45:12Speaker 03

  you are providing a great service to our nation and even if it has nothing to do with the UFO topic, the fact that you're willing to put yourself out there, have these meaningful conversations, and allow your audience to be part of that. History will remember you very kindly. You are, you are setting a new tone for how America gets its information. Without a filter, by the way, before with the networks, remember you had all sorts of people coming up and putting spins on things and this, what you are doing is a tremendous service for our nation and humanity. So, thank you sincerely. My wife is a big fan of yours. Really appreciate what you're doing and I appreciate all the guests you've had in the past

• 2:45:54Speaker 03

  and all the guests you're having in the future, even if some of those guests in the past don't like me very much. Thank you for doing what you're doing.

• 2:46:01Shawn Ryan?

  Thank you for saying that.

• 2:46:02Speaker 03

  You got it. Honor and privilege.