Pod Insights Baby, this is Keke Palmer The Ninth Rule of Love with Jay Shetty About this episode Today, we’re sitting down with the brilliant, bestselling author and host of “On Purpose,” Jay Shetty, for a conversation on what ancient wisdom can teach us about modern love. From the myths our culture pushes about love to the everyday mistakes we make in our relationships, Jay breaks down practical wisdom from his book “8 Rules of Love”—and even adds a ninth rule exclusively for Keke.
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Transcript 16,284 words · 3 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Keke Palmer? This episode is sponsored by Airbnb. Y'all, when spring hits and nature starts calling my name, you know I am headed straight to Airbnb to find the most loved homes to scratch my outdoor z itch. Now, let's get into it, baby.
0:17 Keke Palmer? Hey there, listeners. It's your girl, Keke Palmer here. And today, we are diving deep into some ancient wisdom when it comes to that four-letter word we're all trying to figure out: love. What does our culture get wrong about love? How do we actually love better, stronger, and more real? Well, I had to call in an expert. The one and only Jay Shetty is here to break it all down and talk about his latest book, Eight Rules of Love: How to Find It, Keep It, and Let It Go. And trust me, we're getting into all of that because, baby, this is Keke Palmer.
1:17 Keke Palmer? OK, let me tell you who we've got on the show today because this one right here, he is the real deal. I'm talking about a number-one New York Times bestselling author, the chief purpose officer of Calm, and the man behind the wildly popular podcast On Purpose, Jay Shetty. Welcome to the show.
1:35 Speaker 01 Oh, Kiki, I'm very grateful to be here. I was... Oh, go on, go on.
1:38 Keke Palmer? No, I was just gonna say, you know, I love a fellow Virgo that has 12 jobs.
1:41 Speaker 01 I love it, I love it. Yeah, only you would be recording on a Sunday. I was like, has to be a Virgo. No, I wanted to say I absolutely have been so excited to meet you. I'm such a huge fan. Me and my wife went to the theaters to see One of Them Days and just loved it. It was amazing.
1:56 Keke Palmer? I loved to hear that.
1:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, we're really great to be here. Thank you for having me.
1:59 Keke Palmer? Thank you for coming. Happy that you're here. Gonna get into some great conversations. But first, I want to say congratulations because you actually are going live with your podcast on tour.
2:08 Speaker 01 Yes.
2:09 Keke Palmer? It's coming up on Purpose. Is going live on tour.
2:11 Speaker 01 I'm so excited. We've got surprise guests in fifteen cities. We've never taken the podcast on tour. And what I'm really excited about is people are usually listening to podcasts like yours. Maybe they're watching on YouTube. Maybe they're listening on their way to work, on their way back. This time, we're all gonna get to be in person. The LA show is at the Greek, so I'm really, really excited about it.
2:30 Keke Palmer? I'm gonna have to come and tune in.
2:32 Speaker 01 I'd love that, yeah.
2:33 Keke Palmer? Have you done live shows before?
2:35 Speaker 01 I have. I went on a world tour two years ago. We did around forty shows across the world in like four months. This is the first time I'm taking the podcast.
2:43 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
2:44 Speaker 01 So I I hope loads of people come and.
2:45 Keke Palmer? What's the difference getting that immediate audience engagement?
2:48 Speaker 01 Oh, it's the best, isn't it? Like, I feel like all of us thrive off of it. Sometimes, sometimes I'm sitting in my studio with one camera, talking directly to it. And I'm like, I'm like so excited to just see people and meet people.
3:00 Keke Palmer? It's gonna be amazing. Speaking of your show and interviewing great guests, you interviewed Selena Gomez and Benny Blanco recently on your podcast. And you had a caption that said, being with Selena and Benny left me truly feeling hopeful about love. I wanted to know why. I mean, obviously, people can watch the podcast to see, but you being in the room with them. What was it that made you feel that way?
3:18 Speaker 01 So I've known Selena for like seven years now, and then I met Benny when they started dating and she introduced us. And for me, just watching the growth she's had, the journey she's had. Seeing Benny come into her life, what's really, really special is that usually when people talk about what's happening in celebrities' lives, it's usually gossip. There's there's some trash talk, there's whatever.
3:41 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
3:41 Speaker 01 This time, people are talking about the podcast because they got to see emotionally intelligent love. They got to see positive masculinity. They got to see two people who've connected over deep values and vision. That's what excites me about it. That's what gives me hope is that the whole of TikTok and Instagram is talking about really healthy ideas because of an interview rather than, you know, all the other stuff that we all like to talk about and get entertained by. So to me, it left me feeling hopeful because it's real, it's raw, it's not perfect. I think we've seen couples' goals and relationship goals for a long time. I don't think any of us, first of all, I don't think most of us believe that's true anymore.
4:18 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
4:18 Speaker 01 And I don't think that's what we wanna see. Yeah, I think we wanna see people who are real and raw and deal with arguments and challenges and they spoke about that so openly, so.
4:26 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
4:26 Speaker 01 I I love it for them. I'm really happy for them.
4:28 Keke Palmer? I'm happy for them too. And I was gonna ask, why is it so rare? But in you saying that, it kind of made me think that maybe it's not rare, maybe it's not what we're publicizing. Maybe it's just not what we're seeing often of, or I don't know, maybe dealing with couples, you see that it is rare.
4:43 Speaker 01 I think I think it's more fun definitely to talk about the drama.
4:46 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
4:46 Speaker 01 Right? And and that's what people wanna talk about. And and let's be honest, I think a lot of people have gone through some serious trauma, serious relationship challenges. So the reality, it is it is rare. And it is rare because we make a lot of mistakes.
4:59 Keke Palmer? Yeah, but it's like, isn't that kind of the human thing? I I mean, I feel like sometimes we get so hopped up on the whole toxic love. When it's like, but isn't all love gonna have a little bit of toxicity?
5:09 Speaker 01 I don't think it needs to. I don't think it needs to.
5:12 Keke Palmer? But humans are so flawed.
5:14 Speaker 01 I think it can be tough. I don't think it needs to be toxic. I think there's a difference.
5:17 Keke Palmer? Okay, so tell me, what do you define as like, um? Okay, so maybe I can give an example.
5:21 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:22 Keke Palmer? You've been in a relationship with someone for a while.
5:24 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:24 Keke Palmer? And they just have this one pattern of not always telling you how they truly feel.
5:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
5:31 Keke Palmer? So you can go through these situations where it's like, if you had just told me how you feel, like, and that's kind of like a toxic trait, to not be honest or to share your boundaries. Does that mean the relationship's over? Or is that something you can fix? Like, how do you know when it's a thing that's really toxic or toxic fixable?
5:47 Speaker 01 I love that. First of all, I think it's only toxic if it has a really negative impact on that person and the relationship. Sometimes it's just a habit that's gonna take years to break. And one thing I like to remind people is that we can't change people. Like you or me can't change people. And I think the challenge is that some of us get into a relationship and we're like, I'm gonna change this person. And the funny thing is they're thinking, I never wanna change you. I want you to stay the same. And then you're thinking, I'm with you because I see your potential. And they're with you because they're like, I just like the person you are. So the question they're asking is, why are you trying to change me? And your question is, why don't you change? And I always like to remind people, people don't change for people. They change for themselves.
6:30 Speaker 01 They change for some massive change in their life.
6:33 Keke Palmer? So two things you said that they really keyed on me. First of all, I love the clarification of what is toxic. Because tha- that's ultimately what I mean is like, I feel like everything becomes toxic in today's day. When it's like, some things aren't really toxic, like people are just flawed. So I love the differentiation between what is actually toxic, meaning the impact. The impact is what makes it toxic. And then what do we think of the potential thing? You know, because some people do, is that bad? Is that already going and heading into a relationship with a bad frame of mind? If you're like, I know who you're gonna grow into.
7:02 Speaker 01 I feel like I'm gonna break some hearts, but yes. Yes, it is. Because the problem is that whether they wanna, so there's a few problems. The first is, do they see that potential that you see in them? If they don't see it themselves, it's not happening. Number two, do they want to pursue that potential that you want them to pursue? If they don't, it's not happening. Thirdly, thirdly, is that even important to them? That may be a skill that they have, a hidden talent that they have, but they don't really care about it. That's not their value and vision for life. And I think you could spend your whole life going, but I saw a great life for you. And it's like, but, but they don't want that life.
7:43 Speaker 01 And I think it comes well intentioned from our side, but we actually don't realize that's not love.
7:48 Keke Palmer? Yeah, I love how you put that. When you said somebody's looking at you, they're saying, I love you because of who you are, just the person you are. And then you're looking at the reverses and you will be great if you.
7:58 Speaker 01 If you did this, yeah.
7:59 Keke Palmer? Yeah, that is so deep. So then what happens when you get with somebody and, you know, you guys have your first fight? And they're like, the truth about me is, you know, I've always known this was the issue. And I wanna get better and I wanna grow. But at the same time, that takes a lot of effort that maybe you're not seeing on a consistent basis. When do you decide to pull out from somebody, working with them on their train to becoming who they want to become?
8:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's such a great question. I, I actually remember I was working with someone a few years back. And they found out that their partner had a porn addiction. And that was a big deal for them to, to figure it out. They didn't know. Then their partner said to them, I'm ashamed of it. Like, I feel guilty about it. I wanna move through this. I wanna work through it. And I remember I was giving this person some coaching and they came to me and they said, well, what do I do? And I said, you've got to stay in the relationship if you're ready for them to have three steps forward, two steps back. One day, they're gonna feel they've healed. The next day, an addiction is gonna pull them back. If you're ready for that back and forth, then you should stay. But if you're hoping it's gonna be a linear, straightforward journey, just be ready for disappointment.
9:08 Speaker 01 Because the reality is any change, any addiction, any movement is gonna require three steps forward, two steps back.
9:15 Keke Palmer? Are there markers that it actually is going in the right direction? Because I'm sure someone thinks, well, what if I spend ten years and we're still at the same damn stage? Like, there's been no real progressive work. How can you know that it's moving forward, truly?
9:28 Speaker 01 The reality is, don't trust their words, trust their actions. Have they committed to a plan? Have they looked for a mentor, a coach, a therapist, whatever it is? Do they have that person to stay accountable in their life? Thirdly, are they consistent with it? Is it up and down? Because it can be up and down for a while, but at one point, you wanna see some progress.
9:45 Keke Palmer? That's right.
9:46 Speaker 01 And I think the challenge is, people wanna tell us what we wanna hear. People wanna tell us that they wanna be better because they wanna keep you. People wanna tell you that they're gonna change because they wanna keep you. People wanna tell you that they can become that person because they wanna keep you. So they're not saying it because they're being mean or trying to mislead you. They wanna keep you.
10:03 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
10:03 Speaker 01 But you've got to decide if you wanna stay in the relationship because someone wants to keep you versus because they're actually growing. And I think that's for you to see the difference. They're gonna say and do and share everything that holds on to you, and you've got to decide whether you wanna be held back or move forward.
10:21 Keke Palmer? Yeah, that's, that's big, and accountability is a big one. You gotta have that partner that's willing to show you you, and you gotta be willing to look at that mirror they're reflecting back.
10:29 Speaker 01 And another thing, Kiki, that you just hit on for me, I just thought of this as you were saying that. A lot of the time, we put the pressure on the other person.
10:35 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
10:35 Speaker 01 You haven't changed yet. You haven't grown yet. The real question I ask people to ask is not, is that person changing? Am I ready to be patient while they change? It's not, is that person growing? It's, am I ready to be patient while they grow? That's the real question. And if you ask that question, you take the pressure off them and put the responsibility on you, and all of a sudden, then you know whether you wanna stay or whether you wanna leave. Don't make it about them, make it about you.
11:04 Keke Palmer? Oh, yeah. Makes me think about so many situations. Now, your latest book, it came out in 2023. It's called Eight Rules of Love. How to Find It, Keep It, and Let It Go.
11:15 Speaker 01 Yes.
11:15 Keke Palmer? What inspired you to write that book?
11:18 Speaker 01 Oh, so many things. The first thing was I've dedicated my life to answering four questions for humans. I think there's four decisions we make in life that define the quality of our life. The first is, how do I feel about myself? What do I think of myself is the most important question and decision you make. My first book, Think Like a Monk, answers that question.
11:39 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
11:39 Speaker 01 My second biggest question is, who do I love and who do I receive love from? It defines all of our success. You're gonna spend so much time. If you've seen all the charts, after the age of 20, your parents basically spend no time with you. And the person you spend the most time with is your partner.
11:57 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
11:57 Speaker 01 Or your multiple partners, whoever it is. So you're gonna spend so much time with this person. This person is going to disproportionately impact the quality of your career, the success of you as a parent, the success of your passions. It's really important. So for me, that choice is such a big thing. That's what inspired me is that how can such a big thing that impacts such a huge part of our life be something that we never studied? Something we never went to school for? Something that no one ever really gave us good advice? We all heard cliches.
12:27 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
12:28 Speaker 01 And we lived our life based on those Hollywood cliches or music cliches.
12:31 Keke Palmer? That's right.
12:32 Speaker 01 Or whatever it may have been. And I wanted to write a book that really evaluated those. And I think I'd made a lot of mistakes in love too. So I was intrigued to sit with people who'd been together for 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 years, and people who'd broken up after five months and figure out what was going wrong and right. So I did a lot of research, sat with a lot of people.
12:50 Keke Palmer? Wow, okay. So you talk about self-love, obviously, as the foundation for finding love. But how can someone differentiate from genuinely loving themselves and then distracting themselves from loneliness? Right? Because, you know, you could go out and take yourself to a movie or take yourself to dinner, and it's just because you can't spend that time with anyone else. And then you can actually, which is something that I feel like in the last couple of years, after having my son really realized how to do is really enjoy doing. Activities with me. But it took me a while to really enjoy that and fit in that. So how does someone delineate?
13:20 Speaker 01 Well, you're doing it. I mean, you're living it. That's beautiful. I mean, that's amazing. What's really interesting is that the studies show we'd rather be with the wrong person than be alone.
13:31 Keke Palmer? I've been there.
13:32 Speaker 01 Right?
13:33 Keke Palmer? Oh, my gosh.
13:34 Speaker 01 We can think of a friend right now who's with the wrong person because they don't want to be alone. Or we'd rather settle for less than wait for what we deserve.
13:42 Keke Palmer? Uh, because you don't know when it's coming, Jay.
13:44 Speaker 01 You don't know when it's coming. And, and, well, that's you just hit on something.
13:47 Keke Palmer? You don't know.
13:47 Speaker 01 You actually don't believe it exists for you. Like, that's actually what it is. You believe there's someone better out there, just not for you.
13:55 Keke Palmer? But let me ask you this, Jay, because I know you know the answer to this. Do you really think it's out there for everybody? Do you think everybody's meant to have love or marriage or a partner in their lifetime?
14:06 Speaker 01 I don't think it's out there. I think that it's something that can be worked and built on. You know, when you look at everything, whether it's jobs, relationships, anything, most of it is down to picking well. Right? If you buy a bad car, you can't make it a good one. If you buy a broken home, you're not going to suddenly mend it into a perfect one. Unless you're willing to like gut the whole place and take it all apart. And so that's what you've got to think about it like is like, well, if I pick wrong in the first place because I'm lonely, desperate, don't want to be stuck by myself. And when you're talking about falling in love with your own company, first of all, I want to have some empathy for people. And I want to have some grace for people because your whole life, you were told to have friends. You were told to fit in. You were told to go to everyone's party. You were told to be surrounded by people.
14:51 Speaker 01 If you were a loner in the playground, people laughed at you.
14:53 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
14:54 Speaker 01 If you ate lunch on your own, you were considered weird. And so now it's really strange as you become an adult, you're like, oh, wait, I have to love my own company? I was told the whole time. So I have to have some compassion for people because we've been trained the other way.
15:06 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
15:06 Speaker 01 The way you start to have love for your own company is first of all, to try it out in small doses. You don't need to go on that big date or go watch a movie by yourself. Truly, just spend five minutes a day with yourself, check in with yourself. I always say to people, do two check-ins at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day. At the start of your day, ask yourself, what do? What do I need to do for me today? That will make today a great day? I guarantee everyone wakes up and thinks, what do I need to do for my partner? What do I need to do for my kids? What do I need to do for this colleague, the person at work? Ask yourself in the morning, what's the one thing I need to do today that's gonna make my day? It could be having a cup of coffee, a cup of tea, could be watching your favorite TV show, whatever it is.
15:46 Keke Palmer? For me, it's Pilates and this coffee that I have, but apparently I'm now addicted to it. Oh my gosh. I didn't realize how I could be addicted to coffee. Could you believe it? But yeah, no, I agree with you. And I did a lot of different things to try and figure out. But now at this age, for whatever reason or culmination of things, I've really understood what it means to enjoy my company, to carve something out for me and me to do together. And it really is fulfilling, but it does take time to get there, you know, and to know that what it is that you even enjoy on your solo time.
16:18 Keke Palmer? If these April showers got you feeling some type of way, your girl Kiki knows exactly what you need. Some time to reconnect with nature, courtesy of Airbnb. Whether you're craving a mountain escape where you can literally touch the clouds or need to get your zen on in a desert oasis, these homes are giving return to nature realness in the best way possible. This time of year, I start getting antsy. Y'all know I've been working hard these past few months and baby, me and Leo desperately need some time away. So what's a girl to do? Take myself on over to Airbnb to find a guest favorite home in the middle of nowhere. Right now, I got my eyes on a cute little cottage tucked away in the forest. I gotta make sure that the place is private, well stocked and cozy for the gods. Bonus points if it has a crystal clear view of the stars
17:03 Keke Palmer? and a lake where I can get my fishing on. And if you're like me, Airbnb's got you covered whether you're trying to escape the mountains, forests, or yes, even the desert. We're talking authentic experiences with more space and more privacy in the most magical locations. Book your next adventure today and let nature do its thing.
17:24 Keke Palmer? Something else you've talked about is how people feel like, oh, I lose myself in a relationship. But a lot of times, it's actually because they didn't know themselves in the first place.
17:31 Speaker 01 Yeah.
17:32 Keke Palmer? Let's break that down, and what do you mean by that?
17:34 Speaker 01 We've all got into a relationship, and we just started to like what the other person liked. Oh, you like this type of food? All right, let's go get that type of food. Oh, you like horror movies? All right, let's go watch horror movies. Oh, you like this? I'll go along with you. And you do it because you want to be liked.
17:49 Keke Palmer? Mm-hmm.
17:50 Speaker 01 You want to be accepted, and you want to belong.
17:51 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
17:52 Speaker 01 And the truth is, you just never really know what you like. So you never could stand up for yourself and say, well, wait a minute, I don't really like going to watch football. Can we watch basketball instead? Or whatever it may be.
18:00 Keke Palmer? Mm-hmm.
18:01 Speaker 01 As we get older, we start to discover that we have likes, we have interests. I remember with my wife, when I married her, we got married nine years ago. We've been together for 12 years.
18:09 Keke Palmer? Congratulations.
18:10 Speaker 01 Thank you. And when we first got together, I remember she lived in a world where her older sister and her mom made every decision for her. So everything. So when we moved to New York, and it was just me and her, she'd be like calling her mom FaceTiming, and we're in an apartment going, what kind of plate should I buy? And what kind, you know, everything. And it was really interesting to me, because then she tried to make that me. So she'd ask me, like, what do you think we should buy? What do you think I should wear? Whatever. And I was like, I trust that you know the answer. Like, I want you to do what you want, not what I want, not what your mom wants, what your sister wants. And it was really interesting. It would frustrate her so much in the beginning. And now, all these years later, she's like, oh, I actually know who I am because you didn't solve it for me.
18:48 Keke Palmer? Yes.
18:49 Speaker 01 So I think sometimes, we try and like, make it easier on our partner. We're like, I'll make all your decisions for you. I'll manage all the finances. I'll manage all of this stuff. And actually, what it does is it creates resentment, because that person in five years' time looks at you and goes, I know nothing about our finances. I know nothing about, you know, what's going on. And the other person's like, well, I was just trying to help you.
19:08 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
19:08 Speaker 01 They weren't trying to, you know, take it away from you. So I think a lot of it takes you taking a second and going, wait a minute, just because I follow and subscribe to everything they're doing, doesn't mean they made me do it.
19:20 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
19:20 Speaker 01 And I've got to be brave enough and courageous enough to say, hey, this is what I'm into. You know, this is what's important to me.
19:26 Keke Palmer? What are some other ways that people can balance independence and interdependence in a relationship without losing themselves?
19:32 Speaker 01 I think it's spending enough time together and enough time apart. So I talk a lot about how like, this is before you have kids, and then after you have kids, it will change. But before you have kids, if you look at seven days. Out of those seven days, you should try and spend at least a couple of days on your own. Like the evenings, you go to Pilates on your own, you go to your favorite work, you need it. And that person should be spending time on their own. Now, maybe there's a day or two that you spend time with your friends and they spend time with their friends. And now, when you guys come together, there's a couple of days where you sit at home and watch TV together. I think the problem is, right now, people just spend all their time with each other. And now, you want that person to be your therapist, you want them to be your business partner, you want them to be your mechanic.
20:15 Keke Palmer? Your homegirl, and it's like, you don't wanna hear that shit. I've really had to learn that, and I think it's so interesting too, because this is the part of a relationship that happens where it's like, you also get so obsessed with the feeling of being in love and excited about each other. And you try to squeeze it to death, to the point where it's like, girl, there's nothing left because you've literally, you're not giving it time to breathe, and I think that's a big thing. It's like, you feel like if you're gonna turn away, it's gonna disappear, but it actually will grow stronger if you give it a chance.
20:41 Speaker 01 Absolutely, and then you get to decide whether you actually miss them when they're away.
20:44 Keke Palmer? Okay.
20:45 Speaker 01 So like, my wife's in New York this weekend because her friend's got a premiere, so she went to support her friend, they're having a girls' weekend. And it's like, I'm just, I was playing pickleball with my guys yesterday, like, I'm hanging out, like, it's so great to have that space, and one of the big things is making sure that they have time for their friends and you have time for yours. I did a dating event in LA like a month ago where I was leading, you know, singles. So we had a hundred singles from all across LA that came to this event. And I did this activity where I said things out loud and people had to step forward if it was them. And one of the things was, I always forget my friends when I get into a relationship. And this girl stepped forward, and then all her friends pointed at her, and they were like, yeah, that's her.
21:23 Keke Palmer? I used to be guilty of that a little bit. I'd be like, girl, go on, I'm working with him and with him. But I learned that actually that was a really big problem and actually a hindrance to the relationship because I needed my girls. You know, I needed something else, you know, but you live and you learn. Sometimes you have to lose in order to gain, which is crazy, but it happens. Now, obviously, we have dating apps, social media apps, all this instant gratification. And, as you spoke about before, social media sometimes shows unrealistic relationship goals. And we've seen a lot of this whole fifty-fifty, some of the same conversations that we hear. All the time on podcasts. How can we protect our relationships from these unrealistic expectations?
22:01 Speaker 01 I always say to people that if you envy someone, go and study them. Go and like actually look at their life. Like if you want to compare yourself to someone, get really good at comparing. Now you don't just get to compare the good day. You don't just get to compare, you know, their relationship, compare everything like you have no idea that that person just talked to their mom last night and had a massive argument. You have no idea that that person, their family member has an illness. You have no idea that their kid is getting bullied in school. So it's like, if you're going to compare, compare everything.
22:32 Keke Palmer? They started, you know, y'all don't have the same starting point either. That's the big thing.
22:36 Speaker 01 That's a great point. You've got to study where they started. You're just studying where they ended up. And it's like, if you actually looked at day one, chapter one in that person's life, it doesn't look like chapter 20.
22:45 Keke Palmer? No.
22:46 Speaker 01 And so you're at chapter one, live chapter one, and look at where they were at chapter one.
22:50 Keke Palmer? And I think it comes a lot from what you had said before, where it's like, sometimes we don't know ourselves enough to know what we're comfortable with, to know what we desire, to know what we're looking for in a partner. So we end up looking outward and it's like, well, this is what it means to have a good partner. They got to have this amount of money, they got to have this. And it's like, but that's somebody else's standard. So how do people start digging into defining their standards?
23:09 Speaker 01 Oh, that's a great question. Have you seen this TikTok? It's probably one of my favorite TikTok pages and it's called Guy with the List.
23:16 Keke Palmer? Oh my gosh, no, I haven't seen it.
23:17 Speaker 01 All right, go to it afterwards. I hope everyone checks it out. I don't know who, I don't know who runs it because it's like, it looks anonymous, but I have no idea. Anyway, it's called Guy with the List and what he does is he finds clips of every time a woman on TikTok says, this gives me the ick. So it's called Guy with the List and he will literally go, and he has a list on his notes on Apple and he's like, all right, don't eat a burger in front of a girl, like number 53, number 79. Don't wear matching socks, right? Whatever it is.
23:43 Keke Palmer? Yeah, it's insane.
23:44 Speaker 01 It's insane. Like our ick list is insane. And you know, there's a difference between icks and standards. And the problem is icks have become standards, right? So if you put your profile as I don't date people under six foot five.
24:01 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
24:02 Speaker 01 You never know, there could be a six foot four person who like. Fits that perfectly for you.
24:06 Keke Palmer? You just missed some.
24:07 Speaker 01 And that's everything else, and you just missed them based on this tiny little profile check. So.
24:11 Keke Palmer? I agree.
24:11 Speaker 01 To me, it's like, think about the difference between standards and icks. And by the way, standards are things that make a difference in five years. It doesn't impact the quality of your relationship. That doesn't mean they're emotionally intelligent. It doesn't mean they're emotionally available. It doesn't mean they have good values. It doesn't mean they're a family person. All the things that you care about isn't made true by this one thing. And I think so often we write people off by an ick, not a standard. A standard makes a difference in five years. If you value family and you want the person to value family, that's gonna matter in five years when you start talking about a family.
24:44 Keke Palmer? That's right.
24:44 Speaker 01 Right? If you really value being a career person and you want someone who supports your ambition, that's gonna matter in five years. In five months, you're not gonna see that. Five months, you're in honeymoon phase, you're having fun, you're hanging out. In five years, it's gonna matter whether they believe you should have a career and be ambitious.
25:00 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
25:01 Speaker 01 That's the stuff that matters. And so I think we write people off based of icks and don't realize that standards are what stands. Like, that's what.
25:07 Keke Palmer? Standards are what stands. Yes! That's a very good distinction.
25:10 Speaker 01 It's what lasts.
25:11 Keke Palmer? So how do you view the role of timing in love? Okay, like, is there ever, like, the right person, wrong time? Is that a real thing, you think?
25:19 Speaker 01 I personally think that there can be right person, wrong time, but if you wait and if you grow, there can be right person, right time. I think you can find someone who's great for you, but then self sabotage. I think a lot of people throw someone away because they're hurt from the past and so they ruin their future.
25:40 Keke Palmer? How do we define self sabotage? Obviously, it's a great big old scale of it, but I'm curious when you're thinking, what that look like?
25:45 Speaker 01 It's almost like, let's say, your past relationship made you really insecure. Now you project that insecurity onto the new person who didn't actually do anything to inherit that. Like, they're just being themselves, but you're taking things from the past and you're projecting them onto this person, whether that be expectations, insecurities, and that becomes self sabotage, because you could push someone away who just wants to be there for you. I think so many of us, like, we confuse stability for boredom. Right, and we confuse inconsistency with excitement. That's self sabotage.
26:20 Keke Palmer? That's so true.
26:20 Speaker 01 Right.
26:21 Keke Palmer? And with stability, it can be, I would say peaceful. Obviously, sometimes we would say boring.
26:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
26:26 Keke Palmer? But there are ways to spice it up. When you get to that space, you can say to somebody like, no, we've been a little bit forward lately. Let's get it to something more fun or exciting. You know, and it's like intimacy is created out of that calmness. Whereas inconsistency, you don't even feel safe.
26:39 Speaker 01 Totally.
26:39 Keke Palmer? I didn't even lay my head down.
26:41 Speaker 01 Exactly, and it's easy. If something's peaceful, you can make it passionate.
26:44 Keke Palmer? That's right.
26:45 Speaker 01 But if something's crazy, it's hard to make it peaceful. Right, like so, and, and that's the problem, that's self sabotage. We get so bought into like, we're used to trauma, we're used to drama, we're used to inconsistency. So we get so conditioned to want it, to find it. Like, we say we want presence, but then we chase someone who doesn't give us attention. Right? We say.
27:06 Keke Palmer? What is that? Is that just humanity?
27:08 Speaker 01 No, no, no, but I think it's because of conditioning. Cause we've been taught to believe that someone who doesn't want you is more attractive than someone who never wants to leave. Like, there's someone right next to you who's there for you. Like, we say we want affection, but then we want someone who never gives us their approval. So it's like, and do you know why? It's all because of what's hot for five months and what's hot in five years. It's two different things. In five months, it's fun. The chase is so much fun. I've chased so many women in my life before I was married. It was fun. I loved it. But having been in a long term relationship, I can realize there's a different thing that matters in five years, 10 years as time moves on.
27:44 Keke Palmer? And I think it ties into, obviously, one of those first questions that you'd mentioned that you wanted to answer, which is, how do I feel about myself?
27:51 Speaker 01 Yes.
27:51 Keke Palmer? How you feel about yourself defines what type of relationship you think you deserve, what type of love you think you deserve, if you're worthy of that, all of those things. So, yeah, I think that's true. As I've continued in my life to grow in my identity and my acceptance of myself, my desires for my relationship have changed.
28:09 Speaker 01 That's amazing.
28:09 Keke Palmer? Because they're now mirroring what I feel is of my value.
28:12 Speaker 01 What's changed for you? I want to hear, actually, like, where, where do you think that's like taking place in your life? I'm intrigued.
28:17 Keke Palmer? So, I feel like the biggest thing that changed is my honesty and acceptance of the desire that I like to have my independence. I think that was something that. That I used to feel bad about, or I felt like as a girl, like, oh, you should wanna be cuddled up and cooped up. But I'm very much a free spirit, and I think I realized and acceptance of that of myself. And also, after having my son, how that helped me be a better mother, honoring that. That was something that then became centered for me in my next relationship.
28:43 Speaker 01 That's great.
28:44 Keke Palmer? I need somebody that's cool with me doing my own thing. Now, that doesn't mean I'm not respectful of the relationship, which is what I immediately used to believe that was.
28:51 Speaker 01 Yes.
28:52 Keke Palmer? And I would push my own boundary down to prove that I'm not trying to, you know, not leave you. No, no, no. The truth is, I just want some space for me. This is, I work all the time, then I gotta be a mom, then I gotta be a girlfriend. I also wanna just be and do me. And so I feel like that came just from, again, like I said, a lot of loss that helped me gain more introspection on myself and what I really, truly needed to honor, which was that boundary that you are, girl, it's okay to be really independent. It doesn't mean you don't love anybody.
29:22 Speaker 01 That's amazing. Good, that's brilliant.
29:23 Keke Palmer? Thanks, yeah.
29:24 Speaker 01 That's where everyone just pretends, right? Like you start, like you said, you start breaking your own boundary because you just want someone to like you and you don't wanna upset them, and then all of a sudden, you end up doing that anyway. Like, I think about that all the time. Like, the amount of us that stay in relationships because we don't wanna upset someone, not realizing you're gonna upset them in six months when you break up with them anyway, or break a boundary anyway. And it's like, you're gonna hurt them less if you break up now than in six months.
29:48 Keke Palmer? Why is that so hard? I guess it's hard because you don't wanna upset the person, but it's so strange because then you are not being present. You, you start to trade presence for comfortability, and you both start performing the relationship that you think you have.
30:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:00 Keke Palmer? When really, you could have actually just had it, or at least seen it wasn't gonna happen.
30:04 Speaker 01 It's actually about us. The truth is, we say we don't wanna hurt the other person, but the truth is, we don't wanna look like a bad person. Like, we don't wanna be seen as someone who broke your heart. We don't wanna be seen as someone who let you down. We wanna be seen as the perfect boyfriend, the perfect person, who got everything right. And then somehow, you, of your own accord, decided you don't wanna be with us.
30:25 Keke Palmer? Especially Virgo.
30:27 Speaker 01 Yeah.
30:27 Keke Palmer? We want to be on point. You know, we wanna be on point.
30:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, trust me.
30:31 Keke Palmer? We would do our best. We're criticizing ourselves.
30:32 Speaker 01 Is everything in your house really organized?
30:34 Keke Palmer? Yeah. I'm super organized, very type A. I mean, I can get loose and let loose, but it's like, I very much so like order. It helps me think.
30:41 Speaker 01 Me too.
30:41 Keke Palmer? Um, what's the best way for a relationship to grow? We talk about, you know, you and your wife have been together for 12 years. Uh, people get in relationships, there are lulls, there are, you know, growth periods. You're growing and then they're not growing, but then they're growing and then. So how do you maintain when, you know, being in a partnership with two humans?
30:59 Speaker 01 Yeah, you're never gonna grow at the same pace.
31:01 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
31:02 Speaker 01 You just gotta make sure you're going in the same direction. You're going to the same place. I think about it like, let's say me and my wife are going out for dinner tonight, but she's coming from the house and I'm coming from here. We're not coming from the same place and we're not coming at the same pace. She's like, I'm gonna be there at 6:30. I'm like, the reservation's at 6:15, I'm gonna be there at 6:00. Right? We're communicating. So we're not gonna get there at the same time. So that means she's like, will you wait in the car for me? I don't wanna walk in on my own. I'm like, yeah, sure, I'll wait in the car for 15 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever you need. I'm here for you. We're not gonna get there at the same time. We're not gonna get there at the same pace, but we gotta be moving in the same direction. We gotta be going to the same place. And that way, we just gotta communicate. She might be like, hey, I just stopped for a second, you know, I just had to fill up gas.
31:47 Speaker 01 Okay, cool, I got you, I'm waiting. Don't worry, I got this, right? So that's what's required. And I feel like as time goes on and you spend more time together, trying to move at the same pace and grow in the same way is a waste of time because she's a different human, I'm a different human. We met at a different pace, a different age.
32:05 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
32:06 Speaker 01 And so you've gotta allow that to keep happening. The problem is, we don't communicate effectively. As to we're gonna be five minutes late, gonna be five minutes early, and then you feel let down.
32:15 Keke Palmer? And I think this is a big thing too, why people say trust is so important in relationships. A lot of times we think about trust on the most surface level of, you know, you telling the truth or not. But when we're talking about it in terms of what you're saying in relationships, like, I gotta trust that you're gonna get there.
32:28 Speaker 01 Yes.
32:28 Keke Palmer? That's a different level of trust that, you know, where it's like, I'm gonna spend the next, or if I said I do, or if I say I'm gonna put two more years into this relationship, that's two years of my life.
32:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:39 Keke Palmer? That's time that I'm investing.
32:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
32:42 Keke Palmer? That I'm expecting something on the end of it. How do you do that without contention, I guess? You know what I'm saying?
32:50 Speaker 01 Yeah, I I think it's more regular check-ins. Like, I think most people have these conversations when everything's going wrong. For me, there's four check-ins I try to have with my wife. Every week, every week I ask her, what have you got coming up? And what do you need help with? Like, what's going on in your life? And then I'll tell her what I've got coming up and what I need help with. Every month, I'll check in with her and go, what are you excited about this month? Like, what's your goals? Like, what's happening? And then I'll tell her mine. Every quarter, this is the hardest one. I check in with her and I go, is this relationship going in the direction we want? And if it's not, what are we both gonna do about it?
33:22 Keke Palmer? That's right.
33:22 Speaker 01 Like, do we both wanna, what you just said? I don't wanna live a day without love. Like, I don't wanna live a day in my life where I don't feel loved. My life is optimized on every other level.
33:33 Keke Palmer? Okay.
33:33 Speaker 01 Right? It's like, I don't wanna go a day without love in my life. Now, that doesn't mean that every day has to be the loudest, biggest, craziest love. But I don't wanna waste a year of my life thinking I didn't feel loved that year. So we gotta check in regularly. And then every year, I'll check in with her and go, what are your resolutions? What are the habits you're building? How can we help each other? So I feel like when you have those check-ins, you save yourself.
33:57 Keke Palmer? Yes.
33:58 Speaker 01 And you also give each other the opportunity to say, you know what? Like, I've said to my wife before, I said, you know what? I don't think we've prioritized going away together. We've both been working. You've been prioritizing the family. I've been prioritizing my friends. I don't think we've spent time thinking, shall we figure that out? Right? It gives you an opportunity in a safe space, rather than it being like, you never organize vacations. You know, you always do, you always have time for work. Like, because then it turns into an argument when it should have just been a conversation.
34:26 Keke Palmer? Shout out to friends of mine, Bree and Dom. They're married couple and they talk about how they often have the same kind of thing. Where they're like, literally be like, even if it's gotta be a Zoom. Hey, how you doing? Just checking in. You know, making sure that they keep their union strong. So I love this check-in piece.
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36:15 Keke Palmer? Get the Saks designer brands you love delivered just like that, new on Amazon. What's the biggest misconception, you think, about maintaining long-term love?
36:26 Speaker 01 I think a misconception is that people almost feel that if you've been together for a long time, then you must love each other a lot. I don't think that's true. I think a lot of people stay in relationships because they're scared to leave. I think a lot of people stay in relationships because they're scared of being alone. I think a lot of people stay in relationships for the kids. I think people stay in relationships for all sorts of reasons. So to say that just because you've been together for twenty, I've got plenty of friends who've been together with their partners for twenty, twenty-five years and they're not happy. Or or less than that, but not happy. And so I don't think length of a relationship means depth. And I think we should all be looking and encouraging people to find depth, not just celebrating length. Right? Like, it's very easy to be like, oh, yeah, you you're doing great.
37:10 Speaker 01 Like, I don't think the success of my marriage is we've been together for twelve years. My success is I think we both still wanna be here. Like, it's a daily choice. It's not like you don't benefit from going, we've been together for twelve years, we're gonna be together forever. It doesn't work like that.
37:23 Keke Palmer? And with time, it's all about weight, right? So that depth probably made it feel like. It's like, you know, because time flies when you're having fun, you know, because of that that that weight to it.
37:32 Speaker 01 Great question.
37:33 Keke Palmer? How do you approach conflict in a way that strengthens a relationship rather than damages it? Because obviously, you know, it can be crazy.
37:41 Speaker 01 If you're scared of asking the right questions, you're in the wrong relationship. Asking the right questions should strengthen a relationship, not weaken it. So if you're scared of having a tough conversation, that means it's a weak relationship. Because if we have a strong relationship, I should be happy to have tough conversations. That's the point. Even if you look at friendship, right? Forget romance for a second. If you've got a friend and you're like, we really are friends, that means you're willing to say the truth to them. But if you feel like you can't say the truth to your partner or your friend, well, then that relationship's somewhat fake. Right? Because what's the depth of it again? So first of all, I think you have to clarify that, that your relationship is getting stronger when you can have tougher conversations. It's a great metric of how deep a relationship is.
38:25 Speaker 01 But how do you do it without tension? I have this rule that I say to everyone. I say, whenever you're in an argument or a discussion or a conversation where you're trying to share something, never say you and me. Switch it for us and we. So instead of me saying, you always do this, I would say, how can we think about what's going on? How does this make us feel? Not this makes me feel like this. Whenever you do this, I feel like you make me the same. All of a sudden, all I've made it is we're on opposite sides of the team. We're now fighting each other rather than us and we, we're on the same team. Because, Kiki, for me, it's really simple. If you love someone and you win an argument and they lose, you both lost because you're on the same team.
39:10 Speaker 01 And if I lost and you won, we both lost because we're on the same team. So it has to be a win-win or a lose-lose. There's no third option. And I think too many of us don't realize that when we say you always, or you never, or I feel this and you make me feel this way. Now we don't realize that the responsibility has to be us and we. We can change this relationship. Let's do it for us.
39:36 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
39:36 Speaker 01 Not you can change this relationship, do it for me. Right? It's like.
39:40 Keke Palmer? Yeah, which is like, yo.
39:42 Speaker 01 It's a different language and it automatically just lowers someone's defense mechanism. Like it just brings someone in and someone goes, oh, they're taking accountability too. They're taking responsibility too. They're not just saying it's my fault. And all of a sudden your guard drops.
39:58 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
39:59 Speaker 01 And you go, all right, let's do this, right? Like it's a different energy.
40:03 Keke Palmer? Cause it's true. Anytime you're in a relationship, it can't just be one person's fault. It just really isn't, you know, it's just not possible. It takes two to tango. Um, speaking on that, how do you define closure? Right? Does it always require a conversation or can it be found internally? I mean, I kind of know this answer because.
40:20 Speaker 01 You've had to do it?
40:21 Keke Palmer? I've had to do it. People aren't always going to give you what you're looking for. So you do have to find it for yourself. So, you know, how does someone get there?
40:30 Speaker 01 I don't think you can find closure from the place that broke you. Right? It doesn't make sense. It's like you don't go back to the person who messed something up for you to fix it for you. That doesn't make sense. How can you be healed by the person who hurt you? Like that's the energy they carry. And so you, it doesn't make any sense, but the brain.
40:50 Keke Palmer? They don't have the capacity.
40:50 Speaker 01 They don't have the capacity to, but the brain goes, no, if they don't fix it, I'm always going to be broken.
40:58 Keke Palmer? Or if they don't acknowledge you. I used to always have that thing with myself as well, where it's like, "Oh, you know, I need them to know they did me wrong."
41:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
41:06 Keke Palmer? You know, I need them, but it's like, "I already know I did what I was doing wrong." You know what I mean? So them saying, "Yeah, I did you wrong." Does it change it? It doesn't change it anyway. So it's almost like this weird way of keeping yourself in grief.
41:19 Speaker 01 Really what it is, and you're spot on, like, really what it is, is you just want that person to feel the pain you're feeling. That's what it is. You just want them to feel that punch in the gut that you're feeling, which by the way, is totally valid. If someone's caused you pain, you're just like, "Well, until you accept it, that means you don't even realize how much pain you caused me." The challenge is, they may never realize the pain they caused you until it happens to them. And so you may not be around for that. You don't even want to wait around for that. And by the way, you're not the one who wants to cause them that pain because now you're caught in that cycle of pain as well. So what you said, it has to come back to you giving closure to yourself. And, and the best closure is looking back at the relationship
42:03 Speaker 01 and thinking about all the times you compromised yourself and now reminding yourself that you're not going to do that again. Thinking about all the times you broke your boundaries and now you're not going to do that again.
42:13 Keke Palmer? That's so true.
42:13 Speaker 01 Closure is not like, "Oh, now I mended it, it's all cool." It's like, "No, I'm not gonna put myself out there in that way again. I'm not gonna do that."
42:21 Keke Palmer? Because really what you're saying is, you're holding space for yourself in a way that they couldn't hold it for you. And that was the problem all along, was that nobody was holding space for you, not even you.
42:31 Speaker 01 Yes, well said.
42:32 Keke Palmer? And so now you are, and that is, I love that.
42:35 Speaker 01 I love that. You just, you just.
42:37 Keke Palmer? We're living.
42:38 Speaker 01 Yeah. This is so, I love this.
42:41 Keke Palmer? I love this too.
42:42 Speaker 01 I haven't met a new burger for a long time. So this is like, this is great.
42:45 Keke Palmer? You're giving me life, Jay.
42:46 Speaker 01 You do.
42:47 Keke Palmer? Now, obviously, your teachings often combine ancient wisdom and modern psychology, which I live for. I live for spiritual and science. Like, let's get into everything. Now, what's one timeless lesson about love that still applies today?
43:00 Speaker 01 Hmm, that's such a great question.
43:04 Keke Palmer? We're getting into your head.
43:04 Speaker 01 Yeah, that's, that's really making me think, what's a timeless lesson in love? I, I would say that. Oh, that still applies today, right?
43:13 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
43:13 Speaker 01 That's still relevant today. What's really beautiful is that if you look at all the ancient traditions, they have so many different words for love. There's familial love, there's friendship love, there's romantic love, there's love for your child. And actually, the Vedas, the eastern traditions, the spiritual traditions, they say that the most pure form of love, or the closest thing to it on planet Earth, is a mother's love for her child. Like, that is the purest, most unconditional love. And I think anyone who's been fortunate enough, I appreciate not everyone's had the fortune of having that love, but maybe you've had the fortune of giving it. I, I think that's true. Like, when I think about how my mom loves me,
43:55 Speaker 01 like, there is no one on planet Earth who loves me like my mom loves me. If I called her now and said, "Mom, I need you to fly from London to LA, and fly back, and just be here for two hours, because I need you," she would do it. Like, she would actually do that. Very few people would do that. And that's not because they don't love me, it's just because a mother's love is so pure. And the reason why I bring that up is, I think it's because in the modern world, we've placed romantic love as the peak experience of love. So we put all this pressure, so your friend could love you, your kid could love you, your mom could love you, your brother could love you, but we think all of that love is less than romantic love.
44:34 Keke Palmer? And Jay, you just brought it to me. Because I think that, you know, a lot of people say after kids that they're changed, you know, stuff like that. But I think that that could be a piece of what opened my eyes as well, is because I realized that that was a lie. That the thought, or the belief, that romantic love was the end. I knew that that made no sense, because when I shared the love that I had with my son, who is a full human being on his own, I don't, I'm not dependent on it. But I felt the realization that, oh, wow. It's that's not true.
45:03 Speaker 01 Mm hmm.
45:04 Keke Palmer? That love is love regardless. And we get to experience all type of love. And it doesn't have to have a limit or idea of what this is greater or lesser than whatever it is. It's like love is love.
45:15 Speaker 01 Yes.
45:15 Keke Palmer? It really kind of broke that ceiling for me.
45:18 Speaker 01 And if you look at all the people that changed the world, they loved people. Like Martin Luther King did what he did because he loved people. Malcolm X did what he did because he loved people. Like people who loved people changed the world. Romantic love didn't change the world. When was the last time that two people like loved each other romantically? Impacted millions of people like that never happened.
45:38 Keke Palmer? Literally no one other than Rose and Jack.
45:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:43 Speaker 01 Exactly. And that messed it up for everyone. Yeah, that that did affect us.
45:47 Keke Palmer? That did.
45:48 Speaker 01 There was enough space on that door. There was enough space on that door. She wanted him to die.
45:52 Keke Palmer? I can't believe her ass. And that ring, she said, she kept it, she kept it. Now, if you could name the ninth rule of love for your book.
46:01 Speaker 01 Ooh.
46:02 Keke Palmer? What would it be? Because obviously eight, but if we can get it.
46:03 Speaker 01 No one's ever asked me that. You're you're good. This is good. This is good. What would be the ninth rule of love? It would be.
46:12 Speaker 01 Don't fall in love too fast. Don't fall in love too fast because.
46:17 Keke Palmer? What if they're obsessed with me, Jay?
46:19 Speaker 01 Don't fall in love too fast. I'm sure a lot of them are obsessed with you, Kiki, but do not fall in love with too fast. It's like you because you start planning the future and you don't even know their past.
46:30 Keke Palmer? Uh.
46:30 Speaker 01 Right? You think you know their dreams, but actually you just about know their plans for tomorrow.
46:36 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
46:36 Speaker 01 Like you think you know their heart, but you kind of just know how they made up their mind. Like there's a big difference between what you think you know and what you know.
46:45 Keke Palmer? Too fast? How about that? What's too fast?
46:47 Speaker 01 I think too fast is the amount of time you've spent with someone. I don't think you can't give it time because like, for example, when I started dating my wife, she was doing her second degree and I was unemployed. I saw her every single day. And because I saw her every single day, we learned so much more about each other. And by the way, we didn't see each other on dates. I used to go to her college. I used to wait for her in between lectures and I would sit there and apply for jobs. And then we'd hang out in between. Her friends would join, other people. Would come around. We spent time in a real way. So we sped up a lot of our relationship. Whereas you could say a year, but then you only saw each other once a week. So I don't think it's about time. You can't give it a time. It's how often do you see each other? And how often is it not a date? Like, it's not like you're both fully dressed up, out at dinner, out about town. How often do I see you just hanging in your sweats?
47:32 Keke Palmer? Now, somebody out there dating somebody unemployed and they're like, they're gonna be the next Jay Shad.
47:36 Speaker 01 I was, when I met my wife, I was twenty five thousand dollars in debt. I was being rejected by forty companies.
47:44 Keke Palmer? Oh, my gosh.
47:44 Speaker 01 And my wife had a lot of options. She was, yeah.
47:47 Keke Palmer? And how did she, how did she come in? Honestly, that's a big thing. You know, the fifty fifty conversation, always the patriarchy, the man making more, the woman making less. In this situation, obviously, you were, like you said, unemployed and your wife, like, how did she know for the women that are thinking about that? I got bills that need to be paid and I want my partner to help me with that. But you could be missing out on your great love that has a great career coming for him too. What do you make of that?
48:11 Speaker 01 I, I think it comes back down to values and trust, right? Like, I think she trusted that I wanted to get my life together. I just didn't have it together at that point. But she trusted, she could see that I was dedicated, focused, working towards it. She didn't have to inspire me to do that. She just had to be a support system. And even when we had really tough times after that, we went through a period where we were like nearly four months away from being broke. And I remember I came home and I told her, and she was like, I trust you. And, and just that for me, sometimes for a man, all you need to hear is that your partner trusts you and believes in you. And it can just change the trajectory of your life because you didn't need them to figure it out. You didn't need them to fix it. You didn't need them to solve it. You just needed to know that they were gonna stick with you even when you didn't have anything.
48:54 Speaker 01 And that credit goes to my wife. She's probably the only person who can answer that question.
48:57 Keke Palmer? Go ahead and tell that man you trust him, y'all. No, I'm just playing. Um, I also wanna talk about just your background quickly in business school. And then you studied management science and then you stepped away to become a monk. You've had such a.
49:09 Speaker 01 I've lived a lot of lives.
49:10 Keke Palmer? Yeah, so, I mean, talk to me about your decision to become a monk.
49:13 Speaker 01 Yeah, I've just, you know, Kiki, the truth is, and, and it sounds like, I mean, you've done a lot of things too, so you can relate.
49:19 Keke Palmer? Yes, no, I can't.
49:22 Speaker 01 I've just always followed my heart and intuition. At every step of my way.
49:27 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
49:27 Speaker 01 Every step of my life.
49:28 Keke Palmer? Yes.
49:28 Speaker 01 And I've just never been able to silence that loud voice inside of me. The voice inside of me telling me what to do, the right thing is so loud because I never ignored it. Ever since I was a young kid. So I feel like ever since I was young, since I was like, since I could hear it at fourteen years old, I've always followed it and never ignored it. And so I became a monk simply because I'd met a lot of rich people, I'd met a lot of strong people, I'd met a lot of beautiful people, I'd met some famous people while I was at college. Like you saw people coming in, but I didn't meet anyone who was happy. And the monks were the first people that I met that were happy. And so for me, it was as simple as I want what you have.
50:07 Speaker 01 Like I want to know how to master my emotions, study spirituality and serve other people because that's what they were doing.
50:14 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
50:14 Speaker 01 And to me, those values seemed higher than everything else. Now, as I've grown older, I've met a lot of people in entertainment, I've met a lot of people in business who have those values.
50:23 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
50:23 Speaker 01 You don't have to become a monk to have those values. But for me, at that point in my life, I just wanted to go so deep into the study of meditation and spirituality and eastern wisdom. I'm so lucky, I got three years of getting to study five thousand year old scriptures.
50:38 Keke Palmer? How did you even find where to, I mean, is it the same as school? Like, how do you know this is the right monk place?
50:43 Speaker 01 No, I met a monk who I was really impressed by, he's still one of my closest teachers today. And he was in London, traveling, giving classes. I just thought everything he had to say was incredible, just like you'd go. Today, people have podcasts, we didn't have podcasts then, I was going to real events. Imagine you heard someone, you thought that person really resonated with me. And guess what, I'm just gonna go wait around until they answer my question.
51:05 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
51:05 Speaker 01 And I'm gonna spend time with them. So it was as simple as someone coming to one of your events, loving what you had to say and waiting till the end to talk to you.
51:13 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
51:14 Speaker 01 Just to ask you a question. And that's what I did because, you know, he became one of the greatest mentors of my life.
51:20 Keke Palmer? And then when, what made you say, you know what, or how did you realize, I don't have to just be a monk to do this? Like, or, or that whatever it would, it is required for the monk lifestyle, I don't longer want to be a part of.
51:31 Speaker 01 Yeah, I mean, monk life is hard, you wake up at four AM every day, you sleep on the floor, like on a small mat. You have a gym locker and so all your possessions fit inside a gym locker. Now I have. More shoes than would fit inside that gym locker. You you get two sets of robes, you wear one, you wash one. It's really simple, hard living. And I'm really glad I did it for three years, but I genuinely couldn't hack it any longer. It was so physically tough. Cause you're sleeping in a room with like a hundred other people. Like if someone's sick, you get sick. If someone wakes up at two AM, you're I'm a light sleeper, you wake up. It was tough. Uh, I'm really glad I pushed myself to do it. I learned so much. But I think I realized I felt my goal was to share what I'd learned with others.
52:15 Speaker 01 And I felt like I'd gone there so that I could give those messages on to help other people. And I never thought it would be in the way I get to do it today. Like I never thought I'd be sitting here with you. But I just knew that I had to take it back to the people that I grew up with to share it with them.
52:29 Keke Palmer? So how would you describe yourself now? Would you describe yourself as an influencer or, you know, as like a ex monk? Or, you know, what what would you do? What's your description? And how do you feel about people that question that path and don't understand like, okay, did you always know you wanted to? Do the monk thing and was this all a plan?
52:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? If it was all a plan, I mean, I'd, you know what? I think any creative person. I mean, I can only talk to how anxious I felt when I joined the monastery. When I joined. My friends either thought I was crazy or gay, right? Like that was literally all I heard. Like, that's genuinely true. That's what people thought. This is like twenty ten, right? People thought when I was joining the monastery, my family were like, you're wasting your life. You're ruining what your parents had planned for you. That was anxiety for me. When I left. Everyone was saying, we told you so. We knew you wouldn't make it. We knew this was a waste of your time. Then I got rejected from forty companies. Everyone was like, we knew it. There you go. So if I'm honest with you, Kiki, I never had a clue that
53:31 Speaker 01 this many people would care about what I had to say. I just knew I had to say it. And even if it meant five or ten people and for years, ten years. Before I ever had a video go viral on the internet, I used to do this in rooms half the size of this. Talking in rooms of five to ten people for years. And so for me, I've just done what I've loved. And it's just amazing that it took off like nine years ago and, you know. Became this amazing thing, but I live in gratitude every day. I had no plans for it to be this big.
53:58 Keke Palmer? And do you think there's nuance missed, meaning the conversation around how much spirituality is allowed to live in modern spaces? And how we continue to move that forward?
54:06 Speaker 01 Yeah, well, I I think we limit it because we try to make it be like you've got to make a choice between whether you're material or spiritual.
54:14 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
54:14 Speaker 01 So it's like, oh, if you're spiritual, then you can't dress this way. If you're spiritual, well, then you can't be ambitious financially. Or if you're spiritual, and I'm like, I don't want to live in a world full of rich people who are not spiritual. Like, right, I would want wealthy, right, right. Like, it's like, I would want to live in a world where successful people are spiritual, where wealthy people are spiritual, where people working hard are spiritual, because we hope that they'll be doing it from a better place. Now, no one's perfect.
54:40 Keke Palmer? No, no.
54:40 Speaker 01 We've all got agendas and we've all got intentions. But for me, I'm trying to give myself permission to be all of myself. So I always say to people, I'm as much an ex monk as I am a person in media, as I am a married man, like I'm all these things. I love fashion, I love business, I'm ambitious.
54:57 Keke Palmer? You like cologne too, you came in smelling good.
55:00 Speaker 01 Thank you, I appreciate that. I love meditation. I'm like, I love all of it. And I'm just at a point in my life where I'm giving myself permission to be everything I am. Because I'm tired of having to pick and choose and live up to this caricature version of who I should be like. I don't, I don't want to be one thing anymore. And I, I think all of us are not one thing. I think that's what we're fighting against.
55:20 Keke Palmer? That's right.
55:21 Speaker 01 You know, so give yourself permission to be all of yourself. But, but that, by the way, that triggers people.
55:26 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
55:26 Speaker 01 Because people feel they have to pick.
55:28 Keke Palmer? A lot of times we're living fragmented, but it sounds like you want to live as a whole person.
55:31 Speaker 01 I do, because I am all these complex, mixed things. Like, I'm just not one thing. Like, I always say this, you know, when you go on TV and they ask you, what do you want your title to be? And they're like, oh, do you want to say author, podcaster, whatever? And I'm like, I just wanted to say helping people find their purpose.
55:46 Keke Palmer? Period.
55:47 Speaker 01 That's all I care about. Like, that's what I'm committed to. Whether I do that through a book or a podcast or social media, that's just a vehicle. That's not what I'm about. Like, that's not why I breathe and exist. I exist to help people live a purposeful and meaningful life. And I do that through all these ways, but that's not who I am. Like you're an actor, you're a musician.
56:04 Keke Palmer? I was about to say, I feel the same way. Like, there's always an end point of what it is. And for me, I want to make people feel things.
56:10 Speaker 01 There you go.
56:11 Keke Palmer? I want to make people get in touch with the feeling that they no longer thought that they had, that brings them to presence. And I do that through performance. I do that with a show, with a podcast, with a conversation. And I think that that's a question in terms of, you know, helping people find their purpose. That's the question. What is yours? What is your thesis statement?
56:30 Speaker 01 Yes.
56:30 Keke Palmer? What do you want to be of service to?
56:32 Speaker 01 Yes. What do you want to dedicate your life to? Like, what do you want to do for people? It's as simple as that. Like, how do you want to make people feel? And, and you can do that in any way. So don't make it like, I'm a lawyer, I'm a accountant, I'm an editor, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a, you know, a nurse, I'm a doctor, like.
56:45 Keke Palmer? You could be all the things.
56:46 Speaker 01 You could be all of that, you know? And that's what people were before. People were farmers and storytellers. People were, you know, that's people were.
56:52 Keke Palmer? Nuanced.
56:53 Speaker 01 People were mothers and this, people were daughters and this, like, but today we've made it like, no, no, no, you can only be one thing. So I'm trying to break that.
57:00 Keke Palmer? At the same, I feel like we're, you know, we're, we're all trying to break out of it. And, you know, far as I'm concerned, Jay, you all right with me?
57:06 Speaker 01 Thank you.
57:07 Keke Palmer? I have really enjoyed talking with you.
57:09 Speaker 01 You too, you too.
57:10 Keke Palmer? You are such a fun guy. I have a lot to say. Yes.
57:12 Speaker 01 You gotta come on my podcast. I'm waiting.
57:14 Keke Palmer? I'm there. I am there. Now, before I let you go, I always play a game with my guests. So we're gonna play a quick game called Spiritual Connection or Nah?
57:22 Speaker 01 Oh, okay.
57:22 Keke Palmer? I'm gonna throw out some relationship situations and you just tell me whether you think there could be a spiritual connection there or no.
57:28 Speaker 01 I love it. All right, let's do it.
57:31 Keke Palmer? Dating someone who has all the green flags, but no chemistry. Spiritual connection or nah?
57:38 Speaker 01 I think it could be a spiritual connection.
57:39 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
57:40 Speaker 01 Because I think that chemistry can be built with time. And I also believe that when you don't feel that spark instantly, you write it off. But most of the time, you end up with a firework, right? Like fireworks go off like crazy, but then they're over in three seconds. And so that's what chemistry can be like. Whereas a spiritual connection can be more gradual. It's more like a candle that burns longer, that has a beautiful scent, but it's not as bright, it's not as powerful. But then when it gets strong, it becomes a beautiful fire. And so to me, it's, it's, the spark can start small and build up.
58:11 Keke Palmer? I love that. Okay, getting back with your ex after they've done the work. Spiritual connection or nah?
58:17 Speaker 01 No, no, no. They just told you they did the work. They just told you they did the work.
58:23 Keke Palmer? That is so funny. So you don't feel like there's like, if there's time?
58:27 Speaker 01 I'm not a huge fan of going back to your ex.
58:30 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
58:30 Speaker 01 As an overall, I feel like it's just like one of those patterns that you never break. And then you stop looking forward because you end up with them again and again and again.
58:39 Keke Palmer? Okay, taking a break in a relationship to find yourself, spiritual connection or not?
58:44 Speaker 01 I'd say spiritual connection. I think that's beautiful because if the other person's patient enough to wait for you, that actually proves that there's something powerful there. So yeah, I like that one.
58:53 Keke Palmer? Matching tattoos with your boo before y'all hit the six month mark, spiritual connection or not?
58:58 Speaker 01 Spiritual, no.
59:01 Speaker 01 Can you imagine that? No way. No way. No, no matching tattoos ever.
59:05 Keke Palmer? Okay, no matching tattoos. Jay said no. Okay, falling in love on the first date, spiritual connection or not? I mean, I know you don't think.
59:12 Speaker 01 No way. No way. Don't do it. Don't do it. Even if, even if they're a Virgo and they match and you're a star sign and everything's perfect.
59:21 Keke Palmer? I love how you keep it grounded. I mean, obviously that, you know, Virgo, Earth sign, but you keep it grounded. It's like, we're in the spiritual, we're in the vibes, but also be for real.
59:29 Speaker 01 Be for real, yeah.
59:30 Keke Palmer? You're not falling in love on the first damn date. Um, telling someone I love you before y'all are exclusive, spiritual connection or not?
59:38 Speaker 01 No, no, not before you're exclusive. No way.
59:42 Keke Palmer? Jay is protecting y'all.
59:43 Speaker 01 No, I am. I'm being real. It's like, no way. No, not before you're exclusive. Come on.
59:48 Keke Palmer? Yes.
59:48 Speaker 01 That person saying I love you back to three people, like, it's like, it's not, not, not good, not good.
59:53 Keke Palmer? Last one, being in a relationship where one person is growing and the other is chilling. I mean, this is obvious, spiritual connection or not?
1:00:00 Speaker 01 No.
1:00:01 Keke Palmer? No.
1:00:01 Speaker 01 You have to be growing, even if you're growing in different ways, you both gotta be growing some way, yeah.
1:00:07 Keke Palmer? Well, Jay, that's it, that's all. Thank you for coming. You've been a blast.
1:00:11 Speaker 01 You're so nice to me.
1:00:12 Keke Palmer? And I'm coming on your show. You didn't tell me when, because I could talk to you all day, man.
1:00:15 Speaker 01 Yeah, me too. Yeah, we gotta hang out. We gotta make this happen.
1:00:17 Keke Palmer? I can't wait.
1:00:18 Speaker 01 Do you live in L.A.?
1:00:18 Keke Palmer? I do.
1:00:19 Speaker 01 Perfect. All right, we gotta get together. Yeah, gotta get together.
1:00:21 Keke Palmer? Awesome.
1:00:22 Speaker 01 Love it.
1:00:28 Keke Palmer? Y'all already know what time it is. Welcome to my new favorite part of the show. We're calling it Palmer Knows Best. And it's a space where we keep it real, we keep it fun, and we keep it a little messy, but in a good way. Now, listen, when it comes to life's biggest questions, money, love, friendships, and all of that drama in between, who better to ask than a woman who's seen it all, lived it all, and sure ain't afraid to tell it all? Hey, Sharon.
1:00:53 Speaker 02 Hey.
1:00:54 Keke Palmer? How've you been?
1:00:55 Speaker 02 I've been good. These ain't the chairs, though.
1:00:58 Keke Palmer? Guys, we've just had a whole moment about sharing with these chairs. Like, that's a whole nother story.
1:01:04 Speaker 02 Nah, but I've been good. I've been doing good. How've you been doing?
1:01:06 Keke Palmer? I've been doing great. Thank you for asking. You look fabulous.
1:01:09 Speaker 02 You look good, too.
1:01:10 Keke Palmer? Thank you. Now, we've had a couple of people write into the show, okay? And so, we want them to just like ask you questions and see what your advice is. Are you into giving advice today?
1:01:20 Speaker 02 Sure. I'm into giving what I feel I would do. So, I'm gonna be very clear. I'll tell you what I would do. I'm not telling anyone else what to do.
1:01:31 Keke Palmer? I love that. That's good for the lawsuits.
1:01:33 Speaker 02 Yeah, don't send me anything. No comments, nothing. Because this is what Sharon would do.
1:01:39 Keke Palmer? Okay. "Help, I'm in a nightmare situation with my boyfriend's dad. For the past year and a half, this man has been making my life miserable. He calls me horrible names, criticizes everything I eat, even meals he cooks for me, and makes creepy comments about my appearance. He even tried to police my makeup on vacation. The worst part? My boyfriend keeps defending him. He says his dad loves me and is protective of me, but all I feel is anxiety whenever I'm around him. Even after my boyfriend asked him to stop with the name-calling, his dad just got worse. Like, he's trying to prove no one can tell him what to do. I know there's some complicated family history here. My boyfriend and his dad only recently started having a relationship after a pretty rough childhood.
1:02:23 Keke Palmer? But I'm at a breaking point. Just being in the same room as his dad puts me in a fight-or-flight mode. I love my boyfriend, but how can I make him understand that his dad's behavior isn't just jokes? Should I keep trying to make this work? Or am I fighting a losing battle?"
1:02:36 Speaker 02 Fighting a losing battle.
1:02:40 Speaker 02 She's fighting a losing battle because if that son cannot control the dad and not back the dad off, it's not gonna happen.
1:02:50 Keke Palmer? My thing is, why does she have to be around them?
1:02:52 Speaker 02 Yeah, and, and, does he have a wife? Does the dad have a wife?
1:02:57 Keke Palmer? Clearly not, he had, they, they weren't around for the childhood, so probably not, I mean, I don't, I mean, I don't know.
1:03:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, cuz I'm just trying to figure if he had a wife, then why would he be so preoccupied with his son's girl?
1:03:07 Keke Palmer? Some people are just like that, where they always got something to say.
1:03:10 Speaker 02 Ignorant and rude.
1:03:11 Keke Palmer? Especially if the dad wasn't around during the childhood, he probably feels like he wants to be so dad now and have all these comments and commentary, but my thing is like, why do you have to be around your son and the dad? Why can't you just be with your boyfriend and let him have his own private time with his dad? Just remove yourself out of the equation of that dynamic.
1:03:28 Speaker 02 Especially if the man is making her have anxiety.
1:03:31 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:03:31 Speaker 02 And, um, if she's telling her, um, boyfriend, your dad doesn't, you know, I don't, you wanna be around your father, he should make sure she's not around the father.
1:03:41 Keke Palmer? Right.
1:03:42 Speaker 02 He should say, well, you know, I'm gonna go watch the game with my dad, you know, and I'll catch you later or whatever like that. But I'm telling you, the family, the messed up ass families? That's one of the main reasons why people don't stay married, is, those are the two biggest problems, money issues and in-laws.
1:04:01 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:04:02 Speaker 02 I mean, this is the best way that I can address this. If she see this man as somebody she wanna get married to and have kids, then they gotta fix this problem ASAP. She cannot go into it, in it being a problem, because kids don't fix shit.
1:04:17 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:04:18 Speaker 02 They just there with the problems.
1:04:20 Keke Palmer? That's right. Yeah, I agree. If she can remove herself from being a part of that dynamic, you know, I think that's a great start, but I agree with you. If you plan on really being with this guy forever, he's gotta learn how to also help delegate this situation. And if he can't, then why even go any further?
1:04:36 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:04:37 Keke Palmer? Next one. I'm a 23-year-old in my first relationship with a 19-year-old guy. I'm already scared. And he's driving me nuts with the phone calls. We've only been dating since January, but he wants to talk for hours every single day. He needs a job. Even when there's nothing to say. He'll literally fall asleep on the phone and expect me to stay on the line. I'm more of a texture and definitely need my space. But when I'm trying to bring this up, he just doubles down on wanting calls. Everyone I know seems to think this is normal couple behavior, but I'm feeling suffocated. I'm asexual and wasn't even looking for a relationship when this started. We're taking things super slow, but I'm worried his clingy behavior might be a deal breaker.
1:05:22 Keke Palmer? How do I set boundaries without crushing the sweet but super needy guy?
1:05:27 Speaker 02 How old is she?
1:05:28 Keke Palmer? By telling the truth.
1:05:29 Speaker 02 How old is she?
1:05:30 Keke Palmer? She's 23.
1:05:31 Speaker 02 Oh, so she babysitting?
1:05:33 Keke Palmer? That's what it's given.
1:05:34 Speaker 02 Yeah, cuz a 19-year-old boy is more like a 17-year-old boy.
1:05:37 Keke Palmer? Woo, he must be fine.
1:05:39 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:05:40 Keke Palmer? He must be fine, cuz why?
1:05:43 Speaker 02 I don't know, but all that-
1:05:44 Keke Palmer? I didn't even like 19 and 19.
1:05:46 Speaker 02 But that's kinda like bitchy behavior, though.
1:05:48 Keke Palmer? Sharon.
1:05:48 Speaker 02 Trying to talk on the phone to her all the time.
1:05:54 Speaker 02 And you know, I know people gonna like, guys can't be sensitive, and yeah, yeah, but, you know, um, all of that is controlling.
1:06:03 Keke Palmer? Right.
1:06:03 Speaker 02 So he is a narcissist in the making.
1:06:06 Keke Palmer? Yes, because he's really trying to keep tabs.
1:06:08 Speaker 02 That's right.
1:06:09 Keke Palmer? Cuz you can't talk to nobody if you outside at the club and doing fun stuff. You gotta be at home in the bedroom. He's trying to make sure that's where you're at.
1:06:15 Speaker 02 That's right.
1:06:15 Keke Palmer? Love that. That's a sneaky gag that that guy is pulling.
1:06:17 Speaker 02 Yeah, and it's all that, I'm sensitive and I just wanna talk to you and, women don't, you know, they're always complaining that we don't talk to them and when I try to talk to you, girl.
1:06:26 Keke Palmer? That's right.
1:06:26 Speaker 02 I see that shit a mile away.
1:06:28 Keke Palmer? That's right. He's trying to keep her at home on that phone, so she don't get involved in nothing else and live her life.
1:06:34 Speaker 02 And I just think that if you-
1:06:35 Keke Palmer? And now it's like guilt that's keeping her there.
1:06:37 Speaker 02 Yeah, but if you have that much stress, a relationship should not be all of that. It really shouldn't. If every time he calls, you have anxiety that you gotta talk for- Hours. Then, you know, that's not the right. Yeah, that's not, you know, what the hell are they talking about? And, and not only that, it's just not healthy. Um, the dynamics are not healthy and she's just needs to just chill.
1:07:02 Keke Palmer? There's already a problem, and I don't mean to say like a problem, but there's already an imbalance in the relationship when she is unable to be honest because of how he might feel about it. You know, when you start, when you're in a relationship and you start to feel like you can't tell the truth and what's stopping you from telling the truth is hurting the other person feelings, that means that you're like already at the, at the beginning of self abandoning for somebody else's comfort.
1:07:26 Speaker 02 Right, well, do you think he would be taking a miss or something if she said she was asexual?
1:07:32 Keke Palmer? No, I'm sure she, he probably knows that. What I'm saying is, is that you can't have a problem with being honest in your relationship. Because it might hurt their feelings. Now, you don't have to say, you're getting on my nerves with all these phone calls. But you can say, look, baby, I can't talk on the phone all like that. If that doesn't work for you, you know, then maybe we gotta reassess the relationship. Other than that, you know, this is what I can give you. If you're not able to be honest, then that, then that means there's a problem.
1:08:00 Speaker 02 That's right, or she could start falling asleep before him.
1:08:05 Keke Palmer? I mean, now that I think about it, it doesn't really even matter, I guess, that he's fine because she's asexual, so she's not attracted to anything. I wonder how her and this man even got together to begin with.
1:08:17 Speaker 02 I don't know either, but I, I just know.
1:08:18 Keke Palmer? What do you like about him?
1:08:22 Keke Palmer? She don't know.
1:08:22 Speaker 02 She don't seem like she do.
1:08:26 Speaker 02 She definitely don't wanna talk hours upon hours about whatever it is he's talking about.
1:08:32 Keke Palmer? Be honest, tell him the truth about how you feel, and if he can't handle it, then he's not meant to be with you. You can't stay in a relationship because you scared to hurt his feelings.
1:08:40 Speaker 02 That's right, that's right. That's, that's the truth.
1:08:43 Keke Palmer? Cause been there. Alright, next one.
1:08:47 Keke Palmer? I'm so frustrated with my soon to be ex-wife. Well, we're separated, heading for divorce, and she's making it impossible for me to have a normal time with our one-year-old son. After she had an emotional affair with a coworker, she moved in with her parents and only let me see our son through FaceTime for three months. I finally pushed to get weekly visits and every other weekend, but she makes the nanny come along to supervise every single time.
1:09:12 Speaker 02 What?
1:09:12 Keke Palmer? There's no court order requiring supervision. I've never done anything to suggest I'm unsafe around my kid. And it feels like she's just doing this to spite me because I want a divorce. Plus, my son naturally gravitates to the nanny since she's with him every day, which makes our visits even more awkward. How do I get through to my ex that I deserve unsupervised time with my own son? Should I skip the conversation and go straight to the lawyers? Script the conversation, go straight to the lawyers. I know nobody wants to spend money, but court is the only way that you get order in a situation that is orderless. I stand by that. That's what I believe. It takes time. It takes money. It's a lot of hard work. But in the end, everybody knows what the lines that are drawn in the sand are. And you know when to go left and you know when to go right. You can't get through to somebody that's angry with you. You can't.
1:09:56 Speaker 02 Yeah, I'm, I'm trying to figure out what is this emotional betrayal or whatever he said.
1:10:02 Keke Palmer? Oh, he had an emotional affair. That's real.
1:10:05 Speaker 02 She did or he did?
1:10:06 Keke Palmer? She did.
1:10:07 Speaker 02 Oh, okay.
1:10:08 Keke Palmer? She's the one who had the emotional affair. Now, he's probably leaving out the part where he emotionally abandoned her 12 years ago. But, you know how guys are.
1:10:17 Speaker 02 He's also leaving out the part that he want that damn nanny too.
1:10:21 Keke Palmer? He don't want the nanny.
1:10:21 Speaker 02 I bet he do. I bet he don't want to watch that baby by his damn self.
1:10:25 Keke Palmer? No.
1:10:25 Speaker 02 I bet he do want.
1:10:26 Keke Palmer? He doesn't because he feels like the nanny is impeding on the time with the child. And the mom is probably nervous because, yeah, the baby, this is the thing. I'm not saying that dads aren't great. You know what I mean? Because they are. Dads are good, just like moms are good. But the mom has the nanny too.
1:10:41 Speaker 02 Right.
1:10:41 Keke Palmer? So she just wants the baby to have the same care all around.
1:10:44 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:10:45 Keke Palmer? If the, if the nanny is there helping and supporting the mom, then why should the nanny be there and supporting the dad?
1:10:49 Speaker 02 Or he can have his own nanny. He can have the nanny at his house and the mom can have the nanny at his. But I get what he's saying.
1:10:55 Keke Palmer? Yeah, he doesn't want the nanny at all.
1:10:57 Speaker 02 The nanny at all, well.
1:10:58 Keke Palmer? I think that the mom could want the nanny because she's mad at him, but I also think the mom could want the nanny because the baby has a nanny. You know, if a baby is used to having an extra help, that's what the mom wants to keep all around.
1:11:09 Speaker 02 Baby is supposed to have equal.
1:11:10 Keke Palmer? That's right.
1:11:10 Speaker 02 They can't go to the mama's house and the mama got a nanny and then go to the daddy's house and daddy don't have one. So I can understand that.
1:11:17 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:11:17 Speaker 02 I do. Um, I think what you said was right. You have to go to court. That's what the, that's what the court is for. It'll give you parameters and it'll set up boundaries and he can speak his piece to the judge and. Um, yeah, and I know a lot of people, um, think, um, oh, the judge is against the man. It's always for the woman. But really, the law says they're for the child.
1:11:41 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:11:42 Speaker 02 So when you go to court, that's what they say too. They tell you, we are here for the child. You know, and so the, it's not biased to the mother. It's always for the child.
1:11:53 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:11:53 Speaker 02 But a lot of time, the mother does get custody because most of the time, most of the time, the mother is a good mother or at least, you know, satisfactory.
1:12:02 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:12:02 Speaker 02 Um, and so that's why the mother wins a lot of time.
1:12:05 Keke Palmer? Yeah.
1:12:05 Speaker 02 But the court stands for the child.
1:12:07 Keke Palmer? And then the other side of it too is that the court, it's very expensive. It's very expensive and it's long-winded. What does that mean? It'll keep going and keep going and keep going and it may, you may, it takes forever to get to any conclusion. I wish I had a perfect answer on how to speak and connect with the other parent, especially when there's so much hurt and pain involved because you're gonna always see it through the lens of the betrayal and all the negative things of whatever happened with you all. But, you know, the only thing that I know that works is going through the court.
1:12:43 Speaker 02 Yeah.
1:12:43 Keke Palmer? Because it's hard to talk to people when they're mad at you.
1:12:45 Speaker 02 Well, the good news for the dad is that the baby's only one.
1:12:50 Keke Palmer? That's right.
1:12:50 Speaker 02 The baby not gonna remember none of this. Um, so he just needs to keep working and doing what he has to do. The mom does what they have to do to set parameters. So that both of them can have the time they need. So that the child, by the time the child is five, when he's really knowing things and feeling things, that they have their, uh, co-parenting worked out.
1:13:12 Keke Palmer? That's right.
1:13:12 Speaker 02 So.
1:13:13 Keke Palmer? Wishing them the best because that's tough.
1:13:28 Keke Palmer? Enjoy Baby This Is Keke Palmer on the Wondery app, wherever you get your podcasts, and now on YouTube where you can watch full episodes. Subscribe to the Wondery channel on YouTube and don't miss any episodes. You can listen to Baby This Is Keke Palmer early and ad free on Wondery Plus. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.
1:13:52 Keke Palmer? Baby This Is Keke Palmer is hosted and executive produced by me, Keke Palmer. Lucas Segal is our post producer. Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez. Our original theme song was written and performed by me, Keke Palmer. For Team Kiki, my producer is Sharon Palmer. For Wondery, our managing producer is Olivia Fonti. Senior producers are Tristan McNeil and Candice Menriquez-Rin. Our executive producers are Emily Feldbrake, Dave Easton, Erin O'Flaherty, and Marshall Louie.
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