Pod Insights My Favorite Murder with Karen Kilgariff and Georgia Hardstark 509 - Let Me Corrupt You About this episode This week, Georgia covers the mysterious death of Phoebe Handsjuk and Karen tells the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
Content Warning: This episode involves the discussion of suicide and suicidal ideation.
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Transcript 16,791 words · 7 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 This is exactly right.
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0:35 Speaker 01 In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.
1:12 Karen Kilgariff? Fall is that magical time of year when you need to dress for three different seasons in one day.
1:16 Georgia Hardstark? Make everything easier with comfortable, versatile footwear from Reef.
1:20 Karen Kilgariff? I'm looking over at your feet, Georgia.
1:22 Georgia Hardstark? And I am wearing...
1:23 Karen Kilgariff? Reef!
1:23 Georgia Hardstark? Reef shoes, and I love them.
1:25 Karen Kilgariff? She's a real believer, ladies and gentlemen.
1:27 Georgia Hardstark? Well, you're a clog girl, so what would you wear them with?
1:29 Karen Kilgariff? Kind of anything.
1:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:30 Karen Kilgariff? And now they're back. It's like the timing couldn't be better. Reef is now putting out clogs.
1:35 Georgia Hardstark? Love it. Reef are comfortable. Check out clogs and other fall styles on reef.com and get 15% off your first purchase.
1:42 Karen Kilgariff? Goodbye.
2:00 Georgia Hardstark? Hello.
2:01 Karen Kilgariff? And welcome.
2:02 Georgia Hardstark? To my favorite murder.
2:03 Karen Kilgariff? That's Georgia Hardstark.
2:04 Georgia Hardstark? That's Karen Kilgariff.
2:05 Karen Kilgariff? I have shit all over my hands.
2:07 Georgia Hardstark? She's having a night. She's having a day, a night, a year.
2:10 Karen Kilgariff? This feels, and it's very stolen valor for me to make this comparison, but coming back from a Thanksgiving break to wait to go to on Christmas break. Very much feels like when I first heard that they used to make soldiers in Vietnam go for two weeks to like meet their wives in Hawaii.
2:27 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
2:27 Karen Kilgariff? And then go back to war. Where I'm like, wait, that's a horrible thing to do.
2:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I hear you. We have two more weeks until we're on Christmas break.
2:36 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
2:37 Georgia Hardstark? And this is hard to go back. It's like we went on tour. That was insane. I still can't get over the fact that it's over. Like I still can't believe that.
2:43 Karen Kilgariff? I know.
2:44 Georgia Hardstark? And then it's also like hard to go away from like people cheering from you, for you forever. And then also now it's like, welcome back for two weeks.
2:51 Karen Kilgariff? No one was excited to see me when I went home for Thanksgiving.
2:54 Georgia Hardstark? No one cheered.
2:57 Karen Kilgariff? I kept looking at people going, you do realize that I've just been spent three months experiencing.
3:01 Georgia Hardstark? I'm sorry. Do you know who I think I am?
3:04 Karen Kilgariff? You better get on board with this.
3:06 Georgia Hardstark? How are you?
3:07 Karen Kilgariff? I'm good. I, cause we've been on tour, I wanted to bring the dogs home for Thanksgiving. So I drove up north as if I don't count in the big Thanksgiving travel nightmare.
3:18 Georgia Hardstark? It's different for you. It's like different.
3:20 Karen Kilgariff? Me, I've been doing this for so long. I know how to do it or something. The way home, it took me 12 hours to get from San Francisco to Los Angeles.
3:27 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone needs to know it's a six hour drive usually.
3:29 Karen Kilgariff? So it's as if I drove home to Los Angeles and then back to San Francisco, essentially.
3:35 Georgia Hardstark? That feeling when you get to the grapevine and you're like, I'm almost there, but you're fucking not almost there because that's when the worst of the traffic starts.
3:42 Karen Kilgariff? Because the 99 and then this thing with the trucks comes and it is like a big nightmare, big Y of traffic. And then you sit there for three more hours.
3:52 Georgia Hardstark? Jesus, I'm sorry to deal with that.
3:54 Karen Kilgariff? Listen.
3:54 Georgia Hardstark? I stayed home. It was.
3:56 Karen Kilgariff? You were fine.
3:56 Georgia Hardstark? Excellent.
3:58 Karen Kilgariff? Were you fully rested right now?
4:00 Georgia Hardstark? I don't want to tell you. I don't want to say. I don't want to make you feel bad. But yes, I'm pretty fucking rested. I did a nice ketamine session over the weekend.
4:07 Karen Kilgariff? Hey, what does that mean?
4:08 Georgia Hardstark? Therapeutic ketamine.
4:09 Karen Kilgariff? You and some horses?
4:12 Georgia Hardstark? I went to the stables and did ketamine. And yeah, I'm rested. I'm very rested and I'm clear minded. And I gave you drugs just now though, too.
4:19 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, George and I are doing drugs before the show. It's a, it's a thing we're gonna try out. See, it worked for Fleetwood Mac and we think it's gonna work for us.
4:25 Georgia Hardstark? It's just nicotine pouches. That is my like new thing.
4:29 Karen Kilgariff? I discovered that Georgia was doing nicotine pouches, not patches, while we were on tour.
4:35 Georgia Hardstark? I'm doing both, but pouches.
4:37 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, you're doing it all?
4:38 Georgia Hardstark? Careful.
4:39 Karen Kilgariff? I know. But then, right before we started, I was like, I drove for 12 hours. Then Georgia was like, do you wanna try one?
4:45 Georgia Hardstark? I want a nicotine pouch. I felt like such a, I have definitely been, when I was younger, the girl who gave someone their first cigarette.
4:51 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
4:51 Georgia Hardstark? And I was the, don't hang out with her. She's a bad influence person.
4:54 Karen Kilgariff? Entirely.
4:54 Georgia Hardstark? So I totally have flashbacks to that with you.
4:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
4:57 Georgia Hardstark? Just now. And it felt kinda good.
4:58 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's a great feeling.
4:59 Georgia Hardstark? It is.
5:00 Karen Kilgariff? It's the full rebel. It's like day drinking. We're like, not supposed to do it, do it, do it, do it.
5:04 Georgia Hardstark? Let me corrupt you.
5:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
5:06 Georgia Hardstark? It's fun for everyone.
5:07 Karen Kilgariff? Come over to our side.
5:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, we shouldn't get, we shouldn't drink, right?
5:10 Karen Kilgariff? No, that's crazy.
5:11 Georgia Hardstark? We shouldn't have a drink, right?
5:13 Karen Kilgariff? No.
5:13 Georgia Hardstark? Do you wanna have, we should get a bottle.
5:15 Karen Kilgariff? Are you, and also, it's like, are you super tired? This might work. I mean, I don't know, but it's something. Yeah.
5:22 Georgia Hardstark? Are you feeling it?
5:23 Karen Kilgariff? I think I do. There's like a, I feel like things got a little more in focus.
5:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:28 Karen Kilgariff? Does that make sense?
5:29 Georgia Hardstark? It does. Yeah, I did it so hard the other day that I was such, in such a good mood that I called my mom and had a great conversation with her, which only happens when I have at least one drink. And we have a great conversation about cats and about, you know, nice things.
5:42 Karen Kilgariff? Flowers.
5:43 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
5:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. But this time, you were just like, oh, what's up, mom?
5:46 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I love you. Yeah.
5:47 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, look, as my therapist said, and I've said a million times on the show, everybody needs a little oblivion.
5:53 Georgia Hardstark? They do.
5:54 Karen Kilgariff? And even if it's nicotine oblivion in a pouch, like you're an old cowboy.
5:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, I love the, I do too much oblivion. I do what my therapist calls, I win by losing. Where I was like, I get back at something I'm mad at by drinking.
6:09 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
6:09 Georgia Hardstark? And it's not hurting the thing I'm mad at.
6:12 Karen Kilgariff? No.
6:12 Georgia Hardstark? It's fucking up the thing I am.
6:15 Karen Kilgariff? Which is you.
6:15 Georgia Hardstark? Which is me.
6:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
6:17 Georgia Hardstark? Always.
6:18 Karen Kilgariff? I know, but it's like, then they shouldn't have invented it. And they shouldn't have made it so effective.
6:23 Georgia Hardstark? Truly.
6:24 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, I have to say, on par with drinking, though, what we did a lot this holiday, I guess, week, weekend, was we played a lot of games. So it was like Thanksgiving night.
6:35 Georgia Hardstark? You guys love that shit.
6:36 Karen Kilgariff? We love games. The one that I really love is the three, it's basically three rounds of charades where you get to say full sentences the first round, one word the second round, charades the last round.
6:46 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
6:47 Karen Kilgariff? But you have to remember the clues people gave.
6:50 Georgia Hardstark? Why?
6:50 Karen Kilgariff? On the other teams, because it goes back in the same bowl. It's called Fish Bowl.
6:54 Georgia Hardstark? So you could just point at that person and be like, what they did.
6:57 Karen Kilgariff? Exactly.
6:57 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that's fun.
6:59 Karen Kilgariff? Like that, and then like bowling or whatever, and then people know.
7:02 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
7:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, it's very fun. And it's fun because people think they're not going to be good at it, and they're great at it because they just want to win. And it's hilarious.
7:10 Georgia Hardstark? We just played Jenga. That's what my family does.
7:12 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's good. Were you on a cruise?
7:15 Georgia Hardstark? Is that a cruise game?
7:17 Karen Kilgariff? I'm thinking of those, have you seen those giant Jenga things?
7:19 Georgia Hardstark? Giant Jenga, yes.
7:20 Karen Kilgariff? Hilarious. Yeah, that's, you know what it is? Whether it's drinking, nicotine pouches, or just like agreed upon fun.
7:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
7:27 Karen Kilgariff? I want that cruise in the afternoon feel.
7:30 Georgia Hardstark? I've never been on a cruise, and I want that too. I don't even know really what you mean, but I bet I, I guess, post nap.
7:37 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
7:37 Georgia Hardstark? Pre-dinner.
7:39 Karen Kilgariff? Yep.
7:40 Georgia Hardstark? Like cocktail hour.
7:41 Karen Kilgariff? Everyone's agreed that no one's going to talk about work, no one's going to be worried. We're all just going to be weird versions of ourselves and have fun.
7:49 Georgia Hardstark? No Wi-Fi.
7:50 Karen Kilgariff? No Wi-Fi, you don't need it.
7:51 Georgia Hardstark? Everyone's in their like socks and stuff. No one's in their shoe. Like, I get really like uptight and it's like, are you about to leave? Where are you going? Why do you have your shoes on?
7:57 Karen Kilgariff? Take those shoes off. You have to take your shoes off. And somebody has to spill red wine on the carpet so that you can salt up a red wine stain.
8:05 Georgia Hardstark? I've got it. I'm on that one.
8:07 Karen Kilgariff? That's what Sophie did it to Anna. And it was this big, huge thing. And we couldn't stop laughing because my Aunt Jean, who was there, and my mom, every single time we got together, someone would spill red wine on the carpet. So it was like just the perfect.
8:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, it's good luck.
8:21 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
8:21 Georgia Hardstark? Speaking of good luck. This is my favorite. No, we don't do that anymore. That's a live show thing.
8:27 Karen Kilgariff? Oh.
8:28 Georgia Hardstark? I know, isn't that sad?
8:29 Karen Kilgariff? It's over.
8:29 Georgia Hardstark? We have some responses from you guys. We sent out our newsletter asking you what you're thankful for.
8:36 Karen Kilgariff? Thanksgiving in general, if you have anything to tell us about stuff that went down, or yes, what you're thankful for, anything.
8:42 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
8:42 Karen Kilgariff? Just write in.
8:43 Georgia Hardstark? I have a sweet one. Okay, here's mine. This one is called, "Thank You For More Than Just The Tough Times." Dear Karen, Georgia, and the MFM team, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for getting me through not only the tough times, but also for teaching me how to embrace the good ones. I may not be your typical fan or listener. I'm a 47-year-old Mexican father of two daughters, 21 and 24, living up here in Edmonds, Washington. But I've been with you since day one.
9:09 Karen Kilgariff? What?
9:10 Georgia Hardstark? A brother from another mother, as they say.
9:12 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
9:12 Georgia Hardstark? Your insight and humor gave me the tools to better communicate with my daughters.
9:16 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, my God.
9:16 Georgia Hardstark? I passed along the MFM protocols, encouraged them to stand up for what they believe in, and remind them that caring for their four-legged friends is just as beneficial to their own well-being.
9:26 Karen Kilgariff? Yes.
9:27 Georgia Hardstark? Those lessons have meant more to me than you know. Although I have two sisters of my own, you both have become the West Coast sisters I never knew I needed.
9:34 Karen Kilgariff? This guy's trying to make me cry, and I'm not gonna do it.
9:36 Georgia Hardstark? It says a bunch of really sweet things. And then it says, "Thank you for being exactly who you are and for letting me be part of this community. With warmth and love, SSDGM Angel."
9:45 Karen Kilgariff? This is such a delight to know that you are here with us.
9:48 Georgia Hardstark? Sweet baby Angel's here with us.
9:50 Karen Kilgariff? Sweet baby Angel. We should send him a shirt.
9:53 Georgia Hardstark? Let's do it.
9:53 Karen Kilgariff? Well, this goes very much along with that email. And it just says, "Hello, ladies, and felicitous compliments of the holiday season to you."
10:01 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, wow.
10:02 Karen Kilgariff? It's the Monopoly man.
10:03 Georgia Hardstark? He's an English major, oh.
10:05 Karen Kilgariff? "So I thought of something that might help you with folks who frown upon the idea of a true crime comedy podcast. Tell them it's just like how the TV show MASH is a comedy about war."
10:14 Georgia Hardstark? Ugh.
10:15 Karen Kilgariff? How genius is that?
10:16 Georgia Hardstark? Brilliant, like a dark comedy.
10:18 Karen Kilgariff? Right. This ought to help soothe people's feelings. Well, at least people over 40 years old.
10:23 Georgia Hardstark? Seriously.
10:24 Karen Kilgariff? And then it says, "Saw you in Chicago. You were great, Jenny."
10:27 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
10:28 Karen Kilgariff? Isn't that nice?
10:28 Georgia Hardstark? That's so nice.
10:29 Karen Kilgariff? I love that. It's like, if you're listening to this podcast and you think of things like that, if you have tips or tricks for us.
10:35 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
10:35 Karen Kilgariff? Hopefully, you know.
10:36 Georgia Hardstark? What do you tell your friends when you're like, "You should listen to this podcast"? It's... I know it sounds, but it's like, what is that?
10:43 Karen Kilgariff? Right?
10:43 Georgia Hardstark? We want to know.
10:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. And Angel, if you have some suggestions, you've been here since day one. Get in here, get back in here.
10:49 Georgia Hardstark? Back in here, Angel. Reporting from Angel.
10:51 Karen Kilgariff? I'm so grateful for, for that tip from Jenny and for Angel right again.
10:55 Georgia Hardstark? Thanks, guys.
10:56 Karen Kilgariff? It's exciting.
10:57 Georgia Hardstark? Hey, we have a podcast network. It's called Exactly Right Media. Here are some highlights.
11:03 Karen Kilgariff? Well, this week over on The Knife, Hannah and Pasha talked to Ashley and Crystal, who are the daughters of Donna Nelson, who was arrested in Tokyo in January of 2023 on international drug smuggling charges. They immediately suspected the man Donna had been dating online to be responsible for this. And so they share their family's heartbreaking story and their fight for justice and the warning signs behind elder drug mule scams.
11:28 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
11:29 Karen Kilgariff? I'd never even heard of that.
11:31 Georgia Hardstark? That is something else. Okay. And then over on That's Messed Up, Kara and Lisa break down the SVU episode They'd Already Disappeared with actor Blake DeLong. Then they dive into the shocking real life case of Anatoly Moskvin and his 29 mummified human dolls.
11:47 Karen Kilgariff? Then on Ghosted, Roz reunites with comedian, oh, just truly one of my very favorites these days, Vinnie Thomas. He's the one I'm sure I told you he has an amazing TikTok and he does that bit where he goes, it's his impression of a pigeon at Pride Parade.
12:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
12:01 Karen Kilgariff? And he's, throw out some bread. It's the funniest. I love him. So he's on Ghosted with Roz for a freaky deaky cosmic kiki, they call it. And they get into psychic swindlers, aliens, a silicon-based life, and Snooki's soon to debut paranormal ghost hunting show.
12:18 Georgia Hardstark? I kind of love, like, fits for her somehow for, like, perfectly, even though it makes no sense, it's not connected at all, but it's like, yeah.
12:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, please. I also think that Snooki's personality, I think she was wronged in the time where they got popular.
12:32 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
12:32 Karen Kilgariff? And it was so easy to dump on Snooki.
12:35 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
12:35 Karen Kilgariff? And I think she deserves to do whatever the fuck she wants because people want to watch and listen to her.
12:40 Georgia Hardstark? She's a star. She is a star. Okay. And then tomorrow will be.
12:43 Karen Kilgariff? Feature set about Snooki.
12:46 Georgia Hardstark? Justice for Snooki.
12:46 Karen Kilgariff? God damn it. Why are you oppressing Snooki?
12:49 Georgia Hardstark? And then tomorrow, we'll be featuring episode one of Brief Recession, our newest podcast here on the MFM channel. This episode features Congressman Robert Garcia, the ranking member and top Democrat on the House Oversight Committee.
13:03 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
13:03 Georgia Hardstark? Then be sure to go over to the Brief Recession feed and check out their first four episodes. Please, please, please binge the newest podcast on the iHeart app or wherever you get your podcasts and rate, review, subscribe.
13:14 Karen Kilgariff? Also, Brief Recession is on YouTube. They're just as much a video podcast as they are an audio one, so go watch them at youtube.com/AtBriefRecess. Also, attention holiday shoppers, the Exactly Right Store has been fully stocked with gorgeous trinkets and treasures for you and your loved ones. We have added, do you want to go through this list together?
13:35 Georgia Hardstark? Sure. Ooh, I own this one already. We have the SSDGM necklace, the Stay Sexy and Don't Get Murdered pendant necklace, and it's so beautiful.
13:43 Karen Kilgariff? Beautiful.
13:43 Georgia Hardstark? I have the gold one and I wear it all the time. It's fucking beautiful. It's like, not shitty.
13:47 Karen Kilgariff? It's not shitty. And also, what a cute little bag. It says My Favorite Murder, Established 2016 on the front.
13:53 Georgia Hardstark? You could keep your nicotine pouches in it. It's worth it just for that.
13:56 Karen Kilgariff? Let me see if I can pouch this up right now.
13:59 Georgia Hardstark? And then, what else do we have?
14:00 Karen Kilgariff? We have a Mothman plushy keychain, so hang your keys up here, but then you've got a Mothman down here.
14:05 Georgia Hardstark? Cute.
14:06 Karen Kilgariff? Cute details on this little leg.
14:08 Georgia Hardstark? Can we get a catnip one of these, Nicole?
14:10 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, that's a great idea.
14:11 Georgia Hardstark? Okay, and then our Red Flag Beanie. You have that.
14:15 Karen Kilgariff? The cutest.
14:15 Georgia Hardstark? I love that Red Flag.
14:17 Karen Kilgariff? I love it.
14:18 Georgia Hardstark? And then our cozy MFM Script Zip-Up Hoodie. So it's just My Favorite Murder in Script. It's pretty simple and like straightforward. I love that. And then it says Murderino on the sleeve.
14:28 Karen Kilgariff? I mean, do you want to come out as a Murderino?
14:30 Georgia Hardstark? That's pretty fucking cool.
14:31 Karen Kilgariff? If you're ready.
14:32 Georgia Hardstark? It's like, also like really good material. Vince is always like really obsessed with good material and fun merch, and he would, this would pass his test.
14:39 Karen Kilgariff? I know Nicole really does not slouch. She gets good ones.
14:42 Georgia Hardstark? She does.
14:43 Karen Kilgariff? She's, she cares.
14:44 Georgia Hardstark? So go to theexactlyrightstore.com to shop now.
14:47 Karen Kilgariff? And there's more good news. We have extended the sale, so now it's going to December 7th, so you can get it all.
14:53 Georgia Hardstark? You've got to use code ERM2025 at checkout for 20% off site-wide. That's Exactly Right Store. Dot com.
15:00 Karen Kilgariff? Dot com.
15:01 Georgia Hardstark? Support your local podcast.
15:02 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
15:03 Georgia Hardstark? All right. So before we get started, real quick, we want to do our December donation announcement. You guys know, every December, every week, every episode, we like to donate to a great cause. This month is no different.
15:16 Karen Kilgariff? No, that's right. And this is actually one of my personal favorites. I used to talk about this book.
15:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
15:20 Karen Kilgariff? Father Greg's book. So we're going to kick off December donation drive with $10,000 being donated to Homeboy Industries. And that's this nonprofit here in LA dedicated to providing hope, training, and support to formerly gang-involved and previously incarcerated people, allowing them to redirect their lives and become contributing members of our community.
15:40 Georgia Hardstark? They offer a wide variety of services ranging from tattoo removal to anger management and parenting classes. So if you'd like to join us in giving to this very important cause, go to their website at homeboyindustries.org.
15:52 Karen Kilgariff? They actually have a really great cafe.
15:54 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
15:54 Karen Kilgariff? And they are making TikToks where it's like a bunch of guys that look like tough guys.
15:59 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
15:59 Karen Kilgariff? That go up and they're, they order black coffee, but it's like the little, we talked about that, right?
16:04 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. And they're actually like getting their like soy latte with vanilla.
16:07 Karen Kilgariff? Pumpkin spice latte.
16:08 Georgia Hardstark? So good.
16:08 Karen Kilgariff? And then they're all like going over and sipping them all cute. It's the funniest.
16:12 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
16:12 Karen Kilgariff? So cute. Also, if you're not in a place to give money right now, they're looking for volunteers. So there's volunteer opportunities around tutoring. They need experienced teachers, and they would also like some volunteers that are mental health professionals.
16:25 Georgia Hardstark? Ooh, I love that. So let's find ways to look out for each other in the coming year. Yay.
16:29 Karen Kilgariff? Yay. The way Homeboy Industries does.
16:31 Georgia Hardstark? Thanks, you guys, for helping us donate.
16:33 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
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17:05 Georgia Hardstark? There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.
17:09 Karen Kilgariff? You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.
17:14 Georgia Hardstark? And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.
17:20 Karen Kilgariff? Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.
17:22 Georgia Hardstark? It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.
17:27 Karen Kilgariff? Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.
17:34 Georgia Hardstark? Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook, like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.
17:40 Karen Kilgariff? Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.
17:45 Georgia Hardstark? Hatch Sleep Clock.
17:46 Karen Kilgariff? The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.
17:50 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
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19:57 Georgia Hardstark? All right, I'm first. Who, who, who.
19:59 Karen Kilgariff? Who.
19:59 Georgia Hardstark? I have been, I guess the word isn't looking forward to telling you this story, right? Because it's MASH. It's a comedy about Vietnam.
20:08 Karen Kilgariff? There's, yeah, there's real war in these.
20:10 Georgia Hardstark? Right, so it's not looking forward to, but the story is fascinating and we're going to Australia for this one. So this is a story of the mysterious death of a young woman in Australia about 15 years ago. It's a troubling case that doesn't have a clear answer. It's not a cold case necessarily, but the most troubling part is probably how the initial investigation was handled. This is the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe Hanscheck. And I actually heard about this from a 2016 six-part podcast series called Phoebe's Fall. And it was an investigation by Michael Bachelor and Richard Baker, who are both reporters for the Melbourne newspaper, The Age. It's one of those classic, deep dive. They interview the whole family and friends and just really get into this case and ask
20:55 Georgia Hardstark? great questions that never were asked by the police. So it's a really good podcast. Highly recommend it. And it's always stuck with me because this, the girl Phoebe reminds me of me or us or murderinos or people we would know. She just seems very, oh, let's just get into it.
21:13 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
21:13 Georgia Hardstark? On Thursday, December 2nd, 2010, at about 7:00 PM, the concierge at a luxury high-rise apartment complex in Melbourne called The Valencia goes to the refuse room on the ground floor where all the trash from the high-rise's trash chute goes. So each floor has a trash chute. Trash goes to this, this room. She is looking for a broom to sweep something up, but when she tries to get into the refuse room, refuse?
21:37 Karen Kilgariff? Refuse, yeah.
21:38 Georgia Hardstark? The door is stuck. When she gets the door open, she sees blood and a body and she panics. She first calls her boss, then the police. And it's quickly determined that this is a young building resident named Phoebe Handchick. Police very quickly come up with an explanation that Phoebe had taken her own life. And because of this, they make many mistakes over the course of their very short investigation, and it will leave many questions unanswered. The first thing they do is they don't check for a pulse. They don't check for signs of life. And it's homicide detectives. So like, you'd think that they know to establish that immediately, right? Like, that's the first thing you do.
22:17 Karen Kilgariff? Is it assumed that if they're there, it's because it already has been established?
22:21 Georgia Hardstark? I don't think it's supposed to be.
22:22 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
22:23 Georgia Hardstark? Because the whole thing is like, signs of life is like important. And so they don't even check her pulse. I mean, yeah, so that's what's going on. But let's talk about Phoebe. Phoebe had been 24 and she had lived with her boyfriend, who's 45. They live in that luxury apartment on the 12th floor of this building. The apartment belongs to Phoebe's boyfriend, and they've been together for about a year and a half. And Phoebe had moved in fairly shortly after meeting him. We do know that their relationship was somewhat rocky, and Phoebe had talked about ending it on multiple occasions and maybe even tried to end it and just kept going back to him. This man is, I'm just going to call him Anthony, that's his name.
23:03 Georgia Hardstark? But he had been cleared of any involvement in or knowledge of her death by the coroner. So I'm not going to say his last name, but you can find it anywhere. The journalists from the age take pains to say that they are not arguing with that finding, that he's not involved. But because his name comes up a lot in connection with this case, and at the same time, he's not been charged with any crime, I'm not going to use his last name. But in any case, his name's Anthony. And he's kind of a mover and shaker in Melbourne, as he's a very successful producer of major events. So he kind of is like in the know. He goes to like all the cool parties. He throws all the cool parties. You know, he's got money, that kind of thing.
23:42 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
23:43 Georgia Hardstark? His parents are both judges. His father is a retired Victoria Supreme Court judge and his mother is a district judge. So, you know, well off and like also well respected in the community.
23:56 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
23:56 Georgia Hardstark? His sister is sort of a socialite and is known to be a minor cocaine dealer, although she will be convicted of this for several more years. And when that does happen, when she does get convicted of it and found with selling cocaine, she gets a very light sentence because of her parents' connections.
24:11 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
24:12 Georgia Hardstark? So.
24:13 Karen Kilgariff? To have two parents as judges?
24:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
24:15 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
24:15 Georgia Hardstark? Like, good luck going through.
24:16 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
24:17 Georgia Hardstark? The system.
24:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, you are the system.
24:19 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
24:20 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
24:21 Georgia Hardstark? So meanwhile, Phoebe.
24:22 Karen Kilgariff? Come on, still got it.
24:24 Georgia Hardstark? Meanwhile, let's talk about Phoebe. She's born on May 9, 1986 and grew up in a lovely part of Melbourne with her parents and two brothers. Seems like she had a really lovely childhood and she's known for being creative and beautiful and like stops people in their tracks. But she also seems like she's kind of, she seems like she'd be a murderer now. She has, she seems very artistic. She seems like the cool girl in high school who like always took photos and was in like art classes and photography classes and she had a pierced lip and like short spiky hair. She was just cool.
24:57 Karen Kilgariff? She was a cool girl.
24:58 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. But like someone you'd want to be friends with.
25:00 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. Just really quick on that. I just saw a TikTok that was all about having hobbies is not just like a pastime or a distraction, like hobbies, especially in women, teaches you how to care about the things, like care about yourself and invest in yourself and then develop. So it's like you start it, a hobby and you're like, say, playing the guitar. And if you just keep doing it, eventually you'll get good and then you can actually do something with it. And that idea where it's just like that. I love the idea of like girls in high school that are like, I want to be a photographer. I'm into photography. And it's like, you don't have to do that forever.
25:34 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
25:34 Karen Kilgariff? Just like chase that kind of instinct and get into it.
25:38 Georgia Hardstark? All about those like temporary hobbies and just like what's new, what's next.
25:41 Karen Kilgariff? Try it out, see, see how you feel.
25:43 Georgia Hardstark? And so she has a rebellious streak, totally reminds me of being in the 90s as a precocious teenager. She starts going out to clubs with fake IDs when she's 13, starts drinking and doing drugs. It's exactly what I did. At 16, Phoebe gets her first job at McDonald's. And this is just kind of like a way to show you what, how she was and what she was like. I love the story. She hates the job. She quits after her second day. But when you quit your job at McDonald's, you have to return your uniform. And Phoebe had come to work wearing it. So she decided she's had enough. She quits. She goes into the back room, strips off the uniform and then runs home in her underwear. So she doesn't have to pay them for the uniform. Like, that's the kind of like, I want that girl to be my friend.
26:25 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, that's a cool girl, for sure.
26:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. She seems like someone you'd be like following on Instagram now, who's like an influencer who does really fun, cool stuff. And, you know, Phoebe's close with her family, but her parents get divorced when she's in her teens and she is estranged from her father for a while. But they ultimately repair their relationship. And she's really close with her grandmother, a woman named Phyllis. And Phoebe trusts her completely. She really tells her grandma anything, including about her teenage exploits and experimentation with drugs, which my grandma would have had a fucking heart attack if I had told her what I was doing. But this grandma's cool. And totally non judgmental. But she's also honest when she's worried about what Phoebe is telling her. Because the grandma had done her fair amount of experimenting herself. Phyllis
27:12 Georgia Hardstark? is upfront with Phoebe about her own experiences with drugs, including LSD, saying how she didn't tolerate psychedelics well. So be very careful. It's like, not for everyone. And Phoebe respects her grandmother, but ultimately pays a normal amount of teenage attention to this advice, which is none.
27:29 Karen Kilgariff? Thanks so much. Thanks for your input.
27:31 Georgia Hardstark? Good to know.
27:32 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
27:32 Georgia Hardstark? And so she definitely struggles to some extent with mental health and with drug and alcohol use, as a lot of us do. It sort of blurily fits into what is considered the expectations for young people. Her family isn't too phased by her relationship with much older men, which she's always had, including a relationship with a teacher when she was in high school. He was 30 and she was 16. But it seems like the mother and the grandmother had both had always had relationships with older men and didn't see it as problematic. And he like, lived with them for a while. And it's so hard to say nowadays, like, you can't date your students. There's a fucking power control.
28:13 Karen Kilgariff? No, they're children. You're not supposed to.
28:14 Georgia Hardstark? Yes.
28:14 Karen Kilgariff? No, that's wrong.
28:16 Georgia Hardstark? But they don't see it as problematic. And yeah, so all this is to say, there's a lot going on in Phoebe's life, much of it typical for someone who's 24. But people can't seem to agree if Phoebe's alcohol and drug use and relationships have crossed over into a territory that's more worrying. In the week leading up to her death, Phoebe was in close contact with her psychologist and did seem to be in some amount of distress about her relationship with her boyfriend. And as well as her drinking, which she thought was getting out of control, and there might have been some drug use as well, because, you know, he was in the nightlife scene.
28:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
28:50 Georgia Hardstark? And his sister, as we now know, was selling cocaine.
28:53 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
28:54 Georgia Hardstark? Which all is to say, if you already have mental health issues, adding those things are very detrimental.
29:00 Karen Kilgariff? And proximity with stuff like that, it's like, if you can get away from it, that's why people are like, then I move to the country or whatever.
29:07 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
29:08 Karen Kilgariff? Because if you're right in it, and that's where all your friends are, and that's what they're doing.
29:12 Georgia Hardstark? And you're trying to keep up with this older crowd, like, and she wasn't the type of person who was, like, shouldn't have a ton of money, but this crowd that he ran in, you know, they threw parties for, like, famous people, and they had all this money, and, you know, designer things, and so she was kind of 24 and trying to keep up.
29:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, that's a world we've all been told we're supposed to want to be in.
29:31 Georgia Hardstark? Right, yeah. So, her therapist says that during that week, Phoebe was talking about taking her own life, but it hadn't risen to the level that she thought she should send a crisis assessment team to the apartment. Like, she had mentioned it before, but not with any concrete plans, which I think is the thing that they always look for. And she later says that she regrets not sending someone to help her. All that said, while people close to Phoebe agree that she was experiencing mental health struggles, perhaps even more severe ones, no one can understand how she could have possibly taken her own life. And this is how she died, by stepping feet-first into the garbage chute of the 12th floor. So problematic.
30:15 Georgia Hardstark? And that's why she was found down in the trash room.
30:19 Karen Kilgariff? Right, I get it.
30:20 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. So many things are weird. There's no fingerprints or handprints left behind in the garbage chute. You can imagine, like, remember when I had it at my old apartment?
30:28 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:29 Georgia Hardstark? It's tiny, it's like, you open it, it's the size of a laptop. So, if someone were to put her in, or she were to go in herself, there would be handprints, clear handprints.
30:38 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
30:39 Georgia Hardstark? But there weren't any. And it's unclear totally if it was, like, they just weren't any usable prints, or no prints at all.
30:46 Karen Kilgariff? Like, fully wiped down.
30:47 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly, both of which are, you know, don't make a lot of sense. The other thing, too, is that her family and friends say that, you know, she did struggle with mental health, she did have a hard time taking her medications all the time. So her being suicidal wasn't totally out of the realm of possibility. But they point out that she had a balcony. And or they point out that she was just this free spirit who loved nature. She would have taken her own life in a different way. You know, she was an artistic, creative person. You you don't put yourself in a fucking trash chute. Like, that's not, you don't do that.
31:25 Karen Kilgariff? It sounds, yeah, it sounds unrealistic, but it's also just like, it feels like if you're in a moment like that, you're not also trying to torture yourself in that way.
31:34 Georgia Hardstark? It's very, very suspicious. Like, you'd think that the police, the first thing they would do when they got there would be to assume immediately that that is suicide is so far fetched.
31:43 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
31:44 Georgia Hardstark? Right?
31:44 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
31:44 Georgia Hardstark? Like, to conclude it eventually, maybe. But to assume and immediately and treat the investigation that way is super suspicious.
31:54 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
31:54 Georgia Hardstark? So on Tuesday, November 30th, two days before her death, Phoebe goes out partying and gets so drunk that she spends pretty much the entire day, Wednesday, December 1st, in bed with a hangover. Phoebe's family says this happens sometimes. And on the morning of December 1st, at about 10:30 a.m., Phoebe sends out a group text to her mom, brothers, grandma, her boss, and her boyfriend, the one she lives with. And it's concerning. And so I'm going to read it to you. It's very odd. It says, quote, "Hi, family. I am in bed and about to sleep, and when I wake, I will turn into the most incredible human being you've ever seen. Not, I will go to the hospital. It's safer there. And I hear the special tonight is tomato soup."
32:39 Georgia Hardstark? This is known as a tomato soup letter. "Delicious, nutritious. I love you all very much, but not enough to send an individual text. Sorry about that, but time is sleep, and I must be on my way. Merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Exo." So that is the text she sends to everyone. I try to wrap my head around it, having been hungover really bad myself and the like shameys that you get and the guilt and you're awful and I need to fix this and I want to tell my friends and family that like I swear I'm gonna fix this and I'm gonna get better. But it doesn't make sense. It's just a weird text.
33:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
33:19 Georgia Hardstark? When she receives this text, Phoebe's mom is about to get on a plane home from Western Australia and she's so concerned that she asked her mom, Phoebe's grandma, to contact Phoebe's boyfriend. So he picks up the call. He says he's at work, but he'll check on Phoebe after work. And this story gets even more muddy and strange because by some accounts, and it's so convoluted, Phoebe's boyfriend had her cellphone at the time that message was sent. He said he had taken it to work that day because it was broken, so he was gonna drop it off at the store. But why would that text then come from it? It seems like someone else wrote the text, right? And it's also like, perfect punctuation, perfect, you know, casing.
33:59 Karen Kilgariff? Like if she was drunk or high or there was something like that going on.
34:03 Georgia Hardstark? Hungover even, yeah.
34:04 Karen Kilgariff? But also, it's like, he receives the text, he's on that thread.
34:09 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
34:10 Karen Kilgariff? But then he also has the phone.
34:11 Georgia Hardstark? Right. He says, yeah, and there's a huge amount of confusion about the timeline and whereabouts of this iPhone. It sounds like Phoebe maybe had two phones and still had the second one on Wednesday, but it's just hard to tell. That evening, Phoebe does talk on the phone with her father for about 10 minutes, but the call happens on her boyfriend's phone, not hers. And they make a plan to have dinner together the next night. So, the next day, Thursday, the day Phoebe dies, Phoebe's boyfriend leaves for work and by some of his later accounts, Phoebe had her iPhone up until this point. And this is the day he takes it to be fixed. He kind of changes his story a couple of times, which is suspicious. Does this all make sense? Do you have any questions?
34:53 Karen Kilgariff? No, no, I'm right with you. It's just weird knowing that you already kind of gave the caveat that he's not involved and hasn't, has been cleared, where it's like, but all these things like.
35:01 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. We don't believe, we think that the reason he's cleared is because it was. Not properly investigated, not because he actually had nothing to do with it.
35:10 Karen Kilgariff? Okay.
35:10 Georgia Hardstark? So regardless, he leaves in the morning while Phoebe is still sleeping. Later that morning, there's a fire alarm in the building and Phoebe's seen on the CCTV footage with her dog piling out of the apartment. Some people point out that she seems to stumble in the footage at one point, saying like, maybe she had been drinking, but she seems sure-footed walking back into the building. So it's hard to say. Around noon, Phoebe's boyfriend's house cleaner comes to the apartment and she's the last person we know of to see Phoebe alive and speak to her. She says Phoebe seems sick and hungover, but not depressed, otherwise normal. So at 6:00 PM, Phoebe's boyfriend returns to the apartment. He says it was empty when he got there, but he saw broken glass on the floor as well as a small amount of blood in some places,
35:55 Georgia Hardstark? including on the computer keyboard. He says Phoebe's like purse with her wallet in it is on the counter, which is weird. She always takes her purse with her. So he doesn't know where she is. He has a cigarette, has a beer, and then orders Thai food, which is a weird thing because he and Phoebe were supposed to meet with her dad that night for Thai food at the same restaurant. But he doesn't know where she is. They have plans and then he orders Thai food. They have plans for dinner.
36:24 Karen Kilgariff? Right.
36:24 Georgia Hardstark? Like it doesn't, doesn't add up. When the Thai food comes just after 7:00 PM, the delivery guy mentions that there are police and the building's foyer, something's going on. And that's when Anthony, the boyfriend, goes downstairs to discover that Phoebe's body had been found.
36:39 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
36:40 Georgia Hardstark? Right?
36:41 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. I'm just thinking like, you have these plans and then your girlfriend is like, you can't get a hold of her. The idea that you're just gonna have some dinner.
36:49 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
36:50 Karen Kilgariff? Feels odd.
36:51 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. Yeah. Like I wonder what Vince would think if he came home and I wasn't there, my purse was there. Like he'd be. He'd know something was wrong. He'd just be working on that, probably. Yeah, I'm gonna get ordered dinner. I better eat. Right. So, this is all pretty awful, trigger warning. Phoebe had fallen 12 stories through that chute, more than 100 feet, feet first. So, the blade of the compactor machine at the bottom of the chute had badly injured her ankle on the way down. Once it gets to the bottom, there's a blade for the trash, nearly severing her foot. Sorry. But it's clear from the blood on the floor of the refuse room that Phoebe had survived that.
37:36 Georgia Hardstark? She had climbed out of the bin and crawled across the room, trying to get out before ultimately dying of blood loss, is what she died from. Oh, that's horrible. I know. I mean, that's worst case scenario. It's really awful. She's found with her jeans down around her ankles, which is a weird mystery, too. Did they come down when she fell? Or, a lot of people are like, a way to get her legs together to fit her in the chute. If someone else had put her there, it would be to pull her jeans down around her ankle, you know what I mean? So, that's really suspicious. There's no signs of sexual assault. But she does have some bruises on various parts of her body, like her wrist and her arm, places where someone would have had to grab her to have those bruises.
38:20 Georgia Hardstark? But that's inconclusive. And then, so Phoebe's blood alcohol content is .16, which is twice the legal driving limit in the US, and triple the legal limit in Australia. Oh, wow. So, this part is like what people point to when they're like, she did it herself. And she's found to have what is essentially Ambien in her system, which is an amount consistent with a normal dose, but she also had a lot of alcohol. The coroner writes in his report that he believes Phoebe climbed into the chute in a sleepwalking state induced by the alcohol and sleeping pills. But Phoebe's family points out that they had seen her drunk on numerous occasions because she didn't have a particularly high tolerance. And they did say she was very quick to lose her sea legs.
39:03 Georgia Hardstark? But they are extremely skeptical that she could have climbed into the chute with that amount of alcohol in her system. So it's almost like they're saying that the alcohol and Ambien made her do it. Everyone else who doesn't think so are saying, how could she have done that if she were on that much alcohol and Ambien?
39:18 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
39:19 Georgia Hardstark? And why? You have to ask why she would do that. I just don't, it doesn't make sense.
39:25 Karen Kilgariff? Especially knowing that she lived through it.
39:27 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
39:28 Karen Kilgariff? Where it's like, why would you do a thing that wouldn't, if you're going to go through something like that and make a decision?
39:33 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
39:33 Karen Kilgariff? And it's the aversion.
39:35 Georgia Hardstark? If she put herself in there, I don't think she would have known she was going to die. So she actually was wanting to take her own life. There's so many other ways to do it.
39:42 Karen Kilgariff? But if she was like totally impaired on alcohol and Ambien, maybe it wasn't a decision-making process that was like normal or linear.
39:50 Georgia Hardstark? But if she was totally impaired on alcohol and Ambien, how could she have climbed up into the chute, fit her entire body, you know, like?
39:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
39:57 Georgia Hardstark? And without leaving prints behind?
39:59 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, right.
39:59 Georgia Hardstark? It's just weird. Yeah, it's weird completely either way. So the chute is about three feet off the ground and it's one of those ones that doesn't stay open unless you hold it open. And there's really nothing to hold on to if you were going to climb in. It's just in a wall. And it would be easy enough to get one leg in, but you'd have to be very small and very strong and very agile to get in. And that said, Phoebe is actually incredibly fit. She is learning karate and kickboxing. She spends hours at the gym. She's also a great climber. And so it might be physically possible for her to climb into the garbage chute. But at the same time, the fact that there's no usable fingerprints or handprints, Phoebe's or anyone else's, is very suspicious. So this is the botched investigation.
40:44 Georgia Hardstark? There are many, many missed opportunities at the beginning of this investigation where the Melvin homicide squad does not gather crucial evidence. For starters, as I said, no one checks her body for signs of life. She clearly was alive for some amount of time after her fall because of the crawling. So there might have been a chance that she was hanging on still when help first came. So the investigating officers are part of Melbourne's homicide squad, as I said. So it's not like the idea of this case involving foul play would have immediately been dismissed out of hand. I think that is not the first thing I would think if I saw the scene, is she took her own life. Not at all. Right? No. I mean, I wouldn't. When they investigate Phoebe and her boyfriend's apartment, they do find the small
41:27 Georgia Hardstark? bloodstains on the wood floor, shattered dishes nearby, but they don't take the shattered dishes to see where it came from. There's two glasses that had been used, like cups, on a bench. Like, to me, that says two people had been there. They also don't take samples of her blood, and they don't take her cellphone that she has and her computer as evidence to just see what's in there. There could be, you know, a suicide note, maybe. They don't even check that. And they don't take the laptop for that reason. There's also blood on the laptop, and they still don't take it. Hmm. Right? That's crazy. Yeah. Police also don't take the building's CCTV footage on the day of Phoebe's death.
42:10 Georgia Hardstark? They look at it, the building manager, who is in this podcast, says that, like, he offered it to them, he told them that it's on a two-day loop, and so it erases itself every two days. He lets them know that, he offers it to them, and they don't take it. And they don't even look to see, like, just a- Like, who's in the building? Yeah. At entrances and exits. Like, even just to, like, rule it out, that no one was there. Yeah, that's very strange. Right? It's only after more than two days have elapsed that the police contact the company that services the building CCTV footage to try to recover it, and unsurprisingly, most of it's gone. And this includes all the footage of the garage under the building, which would have shown who came and went around the time of Phoebe's death. It just, that doesn't track at all. No.
42:53 Georgia Hardstark? It's just basic police work, no matter what kind of crime you're, you're looking at. There also appears to be no footage from Phoebe's hallway or the room where the garbage chute was. The police also don't lock down any particular crime scene. So there's actually three crime scenes, if you really look at it here. There's the apartment, there's the room where the chute is, and then there's the refuse room. Those are three crime scenes that should have been cordoned off. Not one of them are. And Phoebe's boyfriend and his family, judges, are in the apartment the whole time this is going on. They're allowed back in the apartment.
43:28 Karen Kilgariff? Oh, no.
43:28 Georgia Hardstark? Allegedly, allegedly, allegedly. They don't take any of Phoebe's electronics for months, and by this time, the SIM card from her iPhone is gone, and her boyfriend admits to getting rid of it, thinking it wouldn't be useful for anything. I have never gotten rid of a SIM card. I don't even know how to do it.
43:43 Karen Kilgariff? You know who does? Like, weird spies and stuff.
43:46 Georgia Hardstark? Exactly.
43:46 Karen Kilgariff? Like, anyone that's like, oh, pop this out and throw it into the river. Like, that's...
43:50 Georgia Hardstark? The Karen Reed case. Remember the one cop who, like, fucking threw away a SIM card? That's so sketchy.
43:55 Karen Kilgariff? Jesus, very, yeah. Very, very.
43:57 Georgia Hardstark? No one gets rid of SIM cards.
43:58 Karen Kilgariff? No.
43:59 Georgia Hardstark? I have my phones from, like, 2006, still.
44:02 Karen Kilgariff? I wonder if you can find out what's on there.
44:04 Georgia Hardstark? I've tried. It's really boring. It's like, just photos of...
44:07 Karen Kilgariff? Dumb shit.
44:08 Georgia Hardstark? It's so dumb. It's so, like, bad photos of dumb shit.
44:10 Karen Kilgariff? Don't look back. Don't look back. But also, I didn't really put the... I mean, sitting with this, and then it's like, you suddenly can see, like, and allegedly, allegedly, I'm making this up, but it's just, like, trying to assemble some sort of idea of what was going on that night, where it's like, two judges are in the apartment.
44:27 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
44:27 Karen Kilgariff? Basically dictating what is and is not going to happen. Maybe, maybe not. Who knows? But that idea as one theory, suddenly is like, oh, right. Don't look at that. Shut that down. Don't go over there. Like, this is over.
44:40 Georgia Hardstark? You'd also think that they would want that to happen. If they didn't think that he had anything to do with it, they would be like, what are you doing? This isn't protocol. Right?
44:48 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. Get everybody in here and have everybody talking.
44:50 Georgia Hardstark? The only people who think it's suicide and who think she took her own life is him and his family.
44:55 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
44:55 Georgia Hardstark? Like, that is fucking...
44:57 Karen Kilgariff? It's not great.
44:58 Georgia Hardstark? That's not great. They immediately are telling, like, their friends and people they know that it's suicide. Like, putting it on Facebook that she took her life.
45:06 Karen Kilgariff? Instead of, please figure out what happened.
45:07 Georgia Hardstark? Yes. They're the only ones who think that it's not suspicious. That's, to me, is like, the biggest red flag.
45:14 Karen Kilgariff? It's not great.
45:14 Georgia Hardstark? No. Also, her sunglasses were found with her. Why would she have her sunglasses on?
45:21 Karen Kilgariff? I mean.
45:22 Georgia Hardstark? You know what else they didn't do is check the trash bins where she was found. They didn't check inside.
45:28 Karen Kilgariff? Like inside something that was in the room where her body was.
45:31 Georgia Hardstark? Right. So like, maybe, OK, maybe she went to take trash out legitimately, ran into some awful monster, and that happened.
45:39 Karen Kilgariff? Mm-hmm.
45:39 Georgia Hardstark? But then also, like, why was there glass broken in the apartment? Why was there blood? Why did she have her sunglasses with her? It's just baffling. Police also didn't take samples. I guess there were mysterious, large shoe prints leading away from the apartment, and they didn't check that out at all. And then the other phone she had had been lost. So it's just her laptop, and it's months, months later that they finally take it. So Phoebe's grandfather, Len, is a retired police detective. So he's like, fuck this shit.
46:10 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
46:11 Georgia Hardstark? And while he's devastated to lose his granddaughter, people who have spoken to him tend to agree that he's approached the question around her death logically and rationally. He gets in contact with a company that makes the garbage chute. And the company allows him, basically, they make him a reproduction of the chute. He's like, there's no way she would have put herself in there. Gets a reproduction of the chute and then asks her friend, a couple of her friends were the same size, to reenact, like, how she would have gotten into the chute.
46:39 Karen Kilgariff? Whoa.
46:40 Georgia Hardstark? And films the whole thing. And with tremendous effort, and there's video of it, they're able to get themselves into the chute, but not without bracing themselves on the chute and the wall around it, which would have left, like, I think, clear finger and palm prints. And they can't fit into the chute without lifting their arms above their heads. Like, it's just, it's very hard to do. It's not impossible, but it's very hard to do. And this is not something the cops would have tried to reenact, you know?
47:06 Karen Kilgariff? Yes. And it's just such a horribly unpleasant thing to do.
47:11 Georgia Hardstark? I guess like maybe I'm just identifying with her way too much, but like I would never do that. I would, that's, it's gross, it's awful, it's scary. Her friend said she was claustrophobic too, so like doing that.
47:24 Karen Kilgariff? It doesn't make sense.
47:24 Georgia Hardstark? It doesn't make sense.
47:25 Karen Kilgariff? It doesn't. But that on top of no prints.
47:28 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
47:29 Karen Kilgariff? Is, something is wrong here.
47:30 Georgia Hardstark? On top of so many things.
47:31 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
47:32 Georgia Hardstark? So meanwhile, in Victoria, Australia, at this point, they still use the antiquated coroner system, which you used to see in the UK and United States as well. And so when we talk about old murder cases, you hear us talking about the coroner convening a jury to determine whether or not a murder has taken place. It's like the coroner's inquest. And then criminal charges stem from there. So the coroner initially rules it an open finding. That's what he rules the death as, meaning there's not enough information to determine Phoebe's manner of death. So it's an open case. It takes years of pressure from Phoebe's family to open an official and full inquest into this. Like you have to petition the government. And I've listened to other podcasts and read other stories
48:16 Georgia Hardstark? where it's just so hard for the family to do it. In fact, they have to pay for it themselves, the family of the victim that they're trying to get an inquest for. Part of the reason it's so hard is that Phoebe's boyfriend's parents are such prominent judges, which means that they know every lawyer in town. So no lawyer can actually take the case, right? Because it's a conflict of interest. They finally get a lawyer and the inquest finally happens in 2014, four years after Phoebe's death, and not until her mother, Natalie, is able to raise $50,000 from donations and her own savings to cover the family's legal costs to have them properly look into her daughter's death.
48:57 Karen Kilgariff? Wow.
48:58 Georgia Hardstark? Right? The other reason it takes this long is that Phoebe's boyfriend tries to petition against there being an inquest at all. But ultimately goes through and it's determined at the inquest that it is very difficult to make any kind of ruling because the amount of evidence that was lost or not gathered, how convenient, at the time of her death. Ultimately, the coroner rules that Phoebe died, quote, "by misadventure," meaning an accident. This is against the advice of his counsel, the lawyer who is tasked with working with the coroner to parse through the evidence. Oh, wow. She had written that she believed the case should be left open. The coroner writes that he believes Phoebe had gotten into the chute herself in an altered state brought on by alcohol and Ambien. Despite several medical experts testifying, while alcohol and Ambien can make people
49:43 Georgia Hardstark? deliriously do things, they believe it's highly unlikely Phoebe would have been able to climb into the chute on her own. So, like, everyone's telling you not to rule it that way, and you just do it anyways. Inside job. Right. In 2008, so four years before Phoebe's death, a new law had made it harder for people to appeal the coroner's findings based on their own interpretations of police evidence. And so this was part of an effort to modernize the coroner's system. So if the coroner had left the case open, Phoebe's family wouldn't have had to appeal. Because he ruled death by misadventure, they would need to appeal in order to change that. So, under the 2008 law, if the appeal didn't go in their favor, they would be responsible
50:26 Georgia Hardstark? for all of the legal fees incurred by that appeal. So, pay for, pay for justice. This is speculation, and allegedly, Phoebe's boyfriend has another girlfriend die by suicide in 2018. Hmm. Which people do or don't think is suspicious, depending on the case, whether or not, you know? And it's possibly had nothing to do with either woman's death, but this is always brought up when people talk about the case. The widespread attention to Phoebe's case has led to calls for change to the coronial court system, which makes it extremely difficult for families to appeal the coroner's decision. And so in 2018, partly because of this case, the Victoria Attorney General announces that there will be some reform to the 2008 Coroner's Act.
51:08 Georgia Hardstark? And it's tied directly to the issues raised in the podcast. That was used as my main source that I listened to called Phoebe's Fall. So they actually were able to enact changes just with this podcast, which I think is so incredible.
51:20 Karen Kilgariff? That's right.
51:21 Georgia Hardstark? Families are now able to challenge coroner's decisions based on more factors than they had been originally able to do so, and they are at less financial risk to do so. So we're recording the show right at the 15th anniversary of Phoebe's death, and she'd be 39 if she were alive today. And it's still one of those stories that people are just always talking about because it just doesn't make sense.
51:43 Karen Kilgariff? And there's so much to discuss. I mean, like, there's layers and levels of like, even if there was no boyfriend.
51:49 Georgia Hardstark? Right.
51:50 Karen Kilgariff? Right? But then it's like, but then you laid that on there?
51:53 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
51:53 Karen Kilgariff? All that additional information where it's like, it kind of reminds me of The Staircase in that way.
51:58 Georgia Hardstark? Totally reminds me of that.
51:59 Karen Kilgariff? They discovered the other wife, and then, of course, at that point.
52:03 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:04 Karen Kilgariff? Me, the way I ingest things, where it's just like, well, there we go.
52:08 Georgia Hardstark? That doesn't happen twice.
52:09 Karen Kilgariff? No, it doesn't happen twice, but it does.
52:11 Georgia Hardstark? It does?
52:12 Karen Kilgariff? It can, and it does, but it makes something that is already suspicious seem like, well, come on.
52:19 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:19 Karen Kilgariff? It's at least worth a second serious looking into.
52:22 Georgia Hardstark? Totally. You'd think they'd want to do that to show that they weren't being, you know, biased.
52:28 Karen Kilgariff? Evasive.
52:29 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, but nope. And it's just really sad. I just, I think about her and how she was 24 and struggling, and then so were we, and we got the chance to straighten things out, and she didn't, and it's just so tragic. And I just don't, I just don't, it just doesn't make any sense. She deserved better than that, than what she got.
52:49 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
52:49 Georgia Hardstark? And that's the story of the mysterious death of Phoebe Handsjuk.
52:53 Karen Kilgariff? Wow, that's, that's a lot. That's a heavy.
52:56 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
52:57 Karen Kilgariff? That needs to get solved.
52:58 Georgia Hardstark? There's Phoebe's Fall, definitely listen to it. It's from 2016, and they've done other stories since then, and it's just a really great investigative podcast and interviews a lot of people, a lot more details than I was able to put out there, but.
53:10 Karen Kilgariff? And it's making change. Like, it's actually affecting people who are wanting to look at it. Wow. Unbelievable.
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53:46 Georgia Hardstark? There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.
53:50 Karen Kilgariff? You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.
53:55 Georgia Hardstark? And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.
54:01 Karen Kilgariff? Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.
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54:31 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye. The Hulu original series, Phony, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.
54:37 Karen Kilgariff? Sonny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom.
54:45 Georgia Hardstark? To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sonny, he knows something is off.
54:51 Karen Kilgariff? As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.
54:58 Georgia Hardstark? Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?
55:02 Karen Kilgariff? Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.
55:09 Georgia Hardstark? Watch the Hulu original series, Phony.
55:11 Karen Kilgariff? Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+ for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.
55:16 Georgia Hardstark? Goodbye.
55:17 Karen Kilgariff? Sometimes being a little salty is completely justified.
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55:52 Karen Kilgariff? I really do love Kachava and I really do think it does taste delicious for getting you through the morning, filling in the gap if you just need some protein and you need some vitamins. It's such a nice little treat.
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56:20 Georgia Hardstark? So can you change direction now, please?
56:22 Karen Kilgariff? I would love to and I'm going to.
56:24 Georgia Hardstark? Great.
56:24 Karen Kilgariff? Although it's not, you know, it's still over in the dark place where we like to spend our time.
56:30 Georgia Hardstark? Okay.
56:30 Karen Kilgariff? Cause today, my story is about a legendary maritime disaster. It's about a massive ship that gets caught in a horrible storm and then vanishes into thin air.
56:40 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
56:41 Karen Kilgariff? But it's not on the open ocean. It takes place on one of the vast, volatile Great Lakes.
56:46 Georgia Hardstark? Oh.
56:46 Karen Kilgariff? 50 years ago, many loved ones of those who were lost in this maritime disaster are still alive and still grieving. It inspired a legendary Gordon Lightfoot song. This is the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald.
57:00 Georgia Hardstark? Holy shit, Vince has been watching, cause he's from Michigan, right? So like, he knows all about it.
57:05 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah.
57:05 Georgia Hardstark? So he's been watching like the documentaries and TV shows.
57:08 Karen Kilgariff? It's crazy.
57:08 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah. I don't know anything about it, though.
57:10 Karen Kilgariff? I didn't really either and I didn't think I knew the song. And then I listened to the song and I was like, oh, this has just been kind of playing in the background because like I grew up in the, what do they call that? AM Gold era of the seventies. Where you just turn on the radio and there was like amazing music.
57:26 Georgia Hardstark? Music, yeah.
57:26 Karen Kilgariff? And Gordon Lightfoot was one of those voices, a famous Canadian, kind of traditional singer, but then he had like some amazing hits and he just very recently died. Okay, so the main source used in the story today is Christopher Rowley's excellent 1996 Discovery Channel documentary called Shipwreck: The Mystery of the Edmund Fitzgerald. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So. It all begins on a beautiful sunny autumn morning on November 9th, 1975 in Superior, Wisconsin, on the shores of Lake Superior. This part of the lake is lined with enormous docks. I don't know if you've ever seen those really gigantic docks on the Great Lakes. They look like several sets of train tracks that extend half a mile out over the lake
58:10 Karen Kilgariff? and 80 feet above the water. And then basically, big freighters come up and they wait to be loaded with their cargo there. And in the mid 70s, that cargo would typically be pellets of processed iron ore, which is an important industrial mineral that gets converted into steel. So, the ore arrives by rail from mines in places like Minnesota. And then, once it's loaded onto the ships several tons at a time, it gets hauled through the Great Lakes and out to steel mills in Rust Belt cities like Cleveland and Detroit. And this is why the SS Edmund Fitzgerald is docked today, is named for the president of the insurance company that owns the ship, Edmund Fitzgerald.
58:52 Georgia Hardstark? Okay. You need a legacy, gotta have a legacy.
58:54 Karen Kilgariff? Gotta do it. But you're risking that this could be your legacy. So, the ship has a 29-person crew that's currently tasked with freighting iron ore eastward towards Sioux St. Marie, Michigan, and then down to the lower Great Lakes, and then ultimately landing in Detroit. So, it's a massive freighter. It's 729 feet long. It's the length of two football fields as a ship. It towers nearly 40 feet off the water. The height is basically about a four-story building.
59:23 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, my God.
59:24 Karen Kilgariff? It weighs more than 13,000 tons when it's empty, and it can carry around 26,000 tons of cargo. And it is lovingly nicknamed Big Fitz. So, the Fitzgerald is so gigantic that when it was first unveiled in the late 50s, around 10,000 people showed up to the christening ceremony just to see like what it looked like. But that ceremony devolved into chaos when the Fitzgerald gets launched. And it basically slides sideways into the harbor and creates this huge wave that breaks onto nearby docks and drenches the thousands of spectators. And then as it kind of bobbles to right itself, it crashes into a nearby pier.
1:00:06 Karen Kilgariff? And in that documentary for the Discovery Channel, they say, quote, "One man is so shaken by this sight that he suffers a heart attack and dies."
1:00:15 Georgia Hardstark? What?
1:00:15 Karen Kilgariff? And another swears that the Edmund Fitzgerald is trying to climb right out of the water.
1:00:20 Georgia Hardstark? Creepy.
1:00:21 Karen Kilgariff? So just to be there and see all of that happening. The idea that a guy had a heart attack, I'm like, wait, is that my weird like fear of gigantic ships? Am I the reincarnated soul of that man?
1:00:30 Georgia Hardstark? Must be.
1:00:32 Karen Kilgariff? It's all about us at the end of the day. So this takes place 25 years after that. And since that time, the Big Fitz has proven itself to be a reliable workhorse of a freighter. Its next trip is Old Hat. It's a two-day run. They've done it a lot of times over the 17 years on the Great Lakes. The captain of the Edmund Fitzgerald is 63-year-old Ernest M. McSorley, who, over his 44-year career, has climbed the ranks. He starts as a deckhand and gets all the way up to the captain.
1:01:02 Georgia Hardstark? I mean, with a name like McSorley, what else are you gonna fucking do with your life?
1:01:05 Karen Kilgariff? Come on. And you better drink whiskey and you better tell a good story.
1:01:08 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
1:01:09 Karen Kilgariff? And you better belly up to that bar.
1:01:11 Georgia Hardstark? That's right.
1:01:11 Karen Kilgariff? So there are very few people who know gigantic ships like the Edmund Fitzgerald or the quirks of the Great Lakes better than Captain McSorley. And of course, like any great tragic story, he's about to retire.
1:01:24 Georgia Hardstark? Aye.
1:01:24 Karen Kilgariff? His wife Nellie's recovering from a stroke, and so he has promised her that after this shipping season is over, he will finally come home for good.
1:01:32 Georgia Hardstark? Come on.
1:01:34 Karen Kilgariff? This haul will be the last one for Captain McSorley.
1:01:37 Georgia Hardstark? Son of a fucking bitch.
1:01:38 Karen Kilgariff? But he thinks it's the last one for a different reason than it will. It takes dozens of deckhands about six hours to load all the iron ore pellets into the Fitzgerald cargo holds just below deck. Then it takes another half hour to close those holds, and they have to manually seal the hatches, and those hatches are above deck. And once the hatch cover clamps are shut, and I'm going like this, but I don't know why, I know nothing about what I'm talking about.
1:02:05 Georgia Hardstark? It could go that way, it could go a different way.
1:02:07 Karen Kilgariff? I'm picturing it like those hermetic jars with the like ball jars with a little bit of rubber. It's probably nothing like that. But anyway, that's a very important part of it where they have to seal that. And then they'll be weather tight once those clamps are sealed. Around 2 o'clock, the Edmund Fitzgerald is ready to set out. It's a warm, beautiful autumn day in Superior, Wisconsin. It makes it seem like everything's going to be smooth sailing. But the Great Lakes are known to throw a few curveballs weather wise, especially at this time of year because it's autumn. So the water's still a little bit warm from the summer, but the cold fronts come in and that's how you get all the action. Okay. Again. Good to know. I don't really know this. I am reading. So if you grow up in this part of the United
1:02:51 Karen Kilgariff? States or Canada, you know, kind of how all this works. But if you didn't, like us, the Great Lakes are very large. Collectively, they span 95,000 square miles and they hold about 20% of the entire planet's freshwater. What? Yeah. Wow. They're a big deal. And one of them, the one that the Edmund Fitzgerald will be crossing in this run is Lake Superior, and it's by far the largest. Superior contains about half of the Great Lakes total water. So of the 20% on the planet, 10% is Lake Superior. Not sure if that math is right. Sounds right. But basically, that would be somewhere around three quadrillion gallons of water. Fuck.
1:03:35 Karen Kilgariff? So we're up above trillion into an area I don't like to go to. I'm not there. Please, let's not. That's enough to flood the entirety of both North and South America, one foot deep in water. Holy shit. It's roughly the size of Maine, Lake Superior is. And at its deepest point, you could submerge the Empire State Building and only its antenna would be sticking out of the lake. Wow. So just. What's down there? The fish with the light. Yeah. There's some freshwater version of that guy. Okay. And mermen. So what Captain McSorley is now sailing across, I don't think sailing's the right word. Traversing has the ability to generate and amplify its own weather systems, just like the ocean.
1:04:18 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:04:19 Karen Kilgariff? In autumn, I just explained to you this part, cold fronts move in and it clashes with the warmer lake water, still not warm water, but warmer than the cold fronts, and that causes these violent storms that are called the witches of November. So Captain McSorley isn't fooled by the beautiful afternoon weather. He knows conditions on the lakes turn quickly. He's been doing it for 40 years. He's also been following the weather reports, but it is the mid 70s, so they're slower and of course more rudimentary than we're used to. Still, when they start this journey, there's no weather warnings in effect. But what Captain McSorley doesn't know is there is a powerful weather system moving out of the Great Plains and doing what's called a panhandle hook.
1:05:04 Karen Kilgariff? You know this one. It's a storm that originates in the Texas and Oklahoma panhandles. It moves east before making a hook shape motion northeast and straight toward the Great Lakes. And this type of weather pattern is rare and it comes as a surprise even to the forecasters. So several hours after the Edmund Fitzgerald leaves Superior, Wisconsin, the lake suddenly becomes rough.
1:05:28 Georgia Hardstark? Oh, that scares me so much because it's like you can plan all you want, like that recent Tahoe storm that came out of nowhere.
1:05:34 Karen Kilgariff? Yes, and just killed people that were out like on kayaks.
1:05:37 Georgia Hardstark? Because it was a beautiful day and no one expected that.
1:05:41 Karen Kilgariff? No.
1:05:41 Georgia Hardstark? There's no way.
1:05:42 Karen Kilgariff? And suddenly it's hailing. I saw a video of people on the shore where it was just like huge balls of hail.
1:05:47 Georgia Hardstark? It's just not fair weather.
1:05:49 Karen Kilgariff? It's a little crazy. Okay, so nine o'clock that night, it's seven hours into the Fitzgerald's trip and the National Weather Service issues a gale warning for Lake Superior, meaning that they're anticipating sustained winds between 39 and 55 miles an hour. And just for perspective, a category one hurricane falls between 75 and 95 miles an hour, so it's approaching hurricane levels. Not there yet. It's not an ideal situation, but Captain McSorley, he's seen it all. And also, he's not alone out there. There's another big iron ore freighter called the SS Arthur M. Anderson.
1:06:26 Karen Kilgariff? These fucking men and their boats. Name a boat after me. Name a boat after me. I demand it. So that ship is also completing the same trip across Lake Superior, and that ship is helmed by Captain Bernie Cooper, a 30-year veteran of the field, and they're only about 10 miles behind the Fitzgerald. So those two captains see each other on each other's ship's radar, and they radio to each other, they check in. Captain Cooper is charting the weather himself and based on the latest forecasts. So he warns Captain McSorley, the situation is going to get much, much worse. And Captain McSorley heeds that warning. He wants to ensure everything on the Fitzgerald is weather tight and secured, so the ship won't take on any water as the
1:07:10 Karen Kilgariff? weather deteriorates. So the crew is dispatched to double-check all the clamped hatch covers. Okay. Around midnight, the National Weather Service upgrades its existing gale warning to a storm warning. Now it's predicting the northeast winds of up to 57 miles per hour or more. It's getting close. But even before that issue is posted, the Fitzgerald is already clocking winds out of the north-northeast at 60 miles an hour and waves that are 10 feet tall. Ooh, in a lake. In a lake. So weird. Yeah. Lakes, how do they work? Lakes. And suddenly, it's just like a bank is sitting next to you on your boat.
1:07:51 Karen Kilgariff? So of course, there's rainfall, so there's very low visibility, but the Fitzgerald and the Anderson can see each other on their radars. They remain in radio contact, so they're not that worried about that part. The buddy system. Yes, exactly. These big boats have friends. Not long after the upgraded warning is posted, the captains decide they're going to reroute north and chart a new path that runs along the Canadian shoreline. So even though it makes the trips longer, being closer to land will give them cover from these northeasterly winds. Okay. And of course, it's not an ideal situation, but because these captains have 80 years of experience between them, they feel like they have it under control. But by 5:00 AM the next morning, on November 10th, the situation becomes more volatile.
1:08:35 Karen Kilgariff? The skies above the two ships on Lake Superior darken, the clouds swell, and the captains find themselves in the thick of a brutal storm. The freighters were hit with wind gusts at nearly 100 miles an hour. So we've gone double hurricane. Fifty-seven to 100, yeah. That's actually what you'd see in a category two hurricane. Huge waves dump water onto the decks as these ships rise and fall on the Superior like little bath toys. They have no other option than to keep moving, so around noon that day, the two captains decide it's time to turn back south towards Sault Ste. Marie. But this is a little tricky because it requires passing an area called the Six Fathom Shoal,
1:09:17 Karen Kilgariff? which is a shallow, mile-long underwater reef. But it's not a coral reef, it's made up of huge jagged rocks. Cool. Uh huh. And those are rocks that could absolutely, of course, rip up the belly of a ship like this. Normally captains have to avoid the shoal. In this storm, they can't maintain the control to avoid the shoal. Large waves are knocking the freighters around while making it hard to get a visual on the shoals themselves, so they can't see, and they know they're going toward them. And then it starts to snow. And it snows really hard. And before long, they're in white-out conditions on the lake, and they can only track each other by radar. Then around 3:00 PM, which is a full 24 hours into this trip, Captain Cooper looks at his
1:10:01 Karen Kilgariff? radar, and he sees that the Fitzgerald is dangerously close to Six Fathom Shoal. So around 3:10, he radios Captain McSorley, but McSorley brings up an entirely different problem, which is he says the seas are so high, they're interfering with the Fitzgerald's radar system. And so he's now blindly navigating on Lake Superior in white-out conditions with waves the size of three-story buildings. They've gone up to three. No, no. No, thank you. McSorley tells Cooper the Fitzgerald is taking, quote, "heavy seas over the deck" and listing to one side, which means the ship is taking on water. But McSorley doesn't know if that's purely because of the waves or because of their structural damage below deck.
1:10:45 Karen Kilgariff? He tells Cooper, his crew is working to pump out all the water to right the ship. So then the captains come up with a plan. McSorley is going to slow the Fitzgerald and give Cooper a chance to catch up to him. Cause they were about 10 miles apart. And then McSorley is going to follow the Anderson to the nearest safe harbor. Cause they have radar. And that will be several miles away in Whitefish Bay, which is on the eastern end of Lake Superior, between Ontario and Michigan. But by 4pm, hurricane force winds are still blowing. More snow is dumping down. And in these violent waves, Captain Cooper struggles to keep a visual on the Fitzgerald. So the Fitzgerald couldn't see them and now he can barely see the Fitzgerald.
1:11:29 Karen Kilgariff? The navigation issues that McSorley mentioned also mean that Anderson can only intermittently see the ship on his radar. And it keeps basically dropping on and off the map. So now it's 5pm, Anderson's still trying to catch up to the Edmund Fitzgerald. And of course, Captain McSorley is on edge. He's radioing to any and all reachable ships to check his position since his radar is down. He actually connects with a Swedish vessel in Whitefish Bay. McSorley tells that ship's crew that waves are still washing over his cargo deck. And that in his 40 years, he's never seen a storm this powerful. At 6:40pm, Captain Cooper reports a succession of two 35 foot rogue waves that knock into
1:12:14 Karen Kilgariff? the Anderson. The Discovery documentary describes these waves as quote, "as powerful as those found in a mid ocean cyclone." So it just goes.
1:12:24 Georgia Hardstark? You seen that video of the fucking wave in the ocean when that tanker? Oh my God, it's the scariest fucking thing I've ever seen in my life.
1:12:31 Karen Kilgariff? Is it when they, they used to do the North Sea things where like, oh, whatever. Yeah. How do they do that?
1:12:38 Georgia Hardstark? I don't know.
1:12:39 Karen Kilgariff? And then they kind of just get used to it. It's like, that's what regular life is like.
1:12:42 Georgia Hardstark? No.
1:12:43 Karen Kilgariff? Please no. Please don't make us do that.
1:12:46 Georgia Hardstark? Stop making us become sailors.
1:12:48 Karen Kilgariff? Just start crying. At 7:10 PM, Captain McSorley radios over to the Anderson again. And this time, he talks to first mate Morgan Clark, who can see the Fitzgerald on the radar. He gives McSorley his position. And when Clark asks the captain how he's faring, McSorley simply replies, quote, "We are holding our own." Those are his last words. Minutes later, at 7:15, the Edmund Fitzgerald drops off the radar and it never reappears. By 7:30, the storm is still raging on Lake Superior, but the snowfall lightens up a little bit, so visibility improves. Based on the Fitzgerald's last position, Captain Cooper thinks he could be getting closer to them.
1:13:30 Karen Kilgariff? But when he looks out to catch a glimpse of them, he can't see anything. Like, he can't see them at all. And at the same time, the Anderson's first mate, Morgan Clark, is trying to reach Captain McSorley again by radio, but there's no answer. So rattled Captain Cooper calls the US Coast Guard, tells them he's worried that something terrible has happened. So the Coast Guard launches an immediate search for the Edmund Fitzgerald, but there's a problem. All their big rescue ships are too far away, and the smaller boats can't go through that storm. They can't weather it. The Coast Guard starts with an air search, but they don't see any sign of the Fitzgerald at all from the air. A ship that's the size of two football fields seems to have vanished.
1:14:12 Karen Kilgariff? The immediate presumption, of course, would be that the Fitzgerald sank, because basically, what else could it be? But the idea that it could go under that quickly without Captain Cooper or one of the Coast Guard planes seeing it at all is pretty unbelievable. And just for a very rough comparison, the Titanic, which is much, much larger, but still, it's comparable. It took two and a half hours to sink. So the idea that suddenly it's just gone is crazy. With a few other options available, the Coast Guard asks the captains of eight large ships sheltering in Whitefish Bay to join this search. Basically, they're asking all these captains who have just come in from a storm to go back out. So nearly all of them decline, but two do agree.
1:14:57 Karen Kilgariff? One is Captain Don Erickson of the William Clay Ford, which is another big ore freighter. And the other is none other than Captain Bernie Cooper of the Arthur Anderson. So those two ships spend all night searching for the Edmund Fitzgerald. They find nothing.
1:15:12 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:15:13 Karen Kilgariff? That is until 11 a.m. the next morning, when they see a battered lifeboat, which Captain Cooper says, quote, "Looked like a giant hand had just taken and torn it in two."
1:15:22 Georgia Hardstark? There's nobody in the lifeboat?
1:15:24 Karen Kilgariff? It's just the boat, torn in half.
1:15:26 Georgia Hardstark? Shit.
1:15:27 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah. They see an oil slick and more debris, like an inflatable raft and some life jackets. But by this point, any hope for survivors is gone. The lake water is less than 50 degrees, which is only survivable for a short window of time, even when the water's calm. But this water is not calm, which makes it even more lethal. A Coast Guardsman named James Hobot will say, quote, "We searched for three days in probably the roughest seas I've been in in my life, including the North Atlantic and hurricanes in the Gulf."
1:15:57 Georgia Hardstark? Yikes.
1:15:58 Karen Kilgariff? On November 14th, four days after the Edmund Fitzgerald disappears, a U.S. Navy plane using magnetic detecting gear hits on a large object at the bottom of Lake Superior, right around where the Fitzgerald was last seen on radar. And using the military's equipment, searchers are soon able to determine that this is, in fact, the Edmund Fitzgerald, split in two on the bottom of the lake, 17 miles away from Whitefish Bay, where they were trying to get to.
1:16:25 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:16:26 Karen Kilgariff? That means Captain McSorley almost got his crew to safety.
1:16:30 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah, 17 miles is not a lot.
1:16:31 Karen Kilgariff? It's so close, when it's two football fields on its way. But even after the ship's located, no one can agree on what actually caused it to go down. Two federal investigations are conducted in the late 70s. Both concede we'll never know exactly what happened. But they both suggest the likeliest culprit were those hatch covers on the cargo holds.
1:16:52 Georgia Hardstark? Those bell jar things you were talking about?
1:16:54 Karen Kilgariff? The bell jars. A report suggests that they might not have been clamped tightly enough. And in the storm, huge waves pouring onto the deck, there's so much lake water spilled into the cargo holds. And basically, the ship became so waterlogged that it went down. It made it go down fast.
1:17:11 Georgia Hardstark? Yeah.
1:17:12 Karen Kilgariff? But that's a very controversial theory for a couple of reasons. One, it puts the blame on the crew, on the Fitzgerald's crew. Many people object to that because these people knew what they were doing. They did it all the time. But many Great Lakes captains and engineers reject that theory because even if the covers weren't perfectly sealed, we know that they were as close to that as possible because the captain called for them to be rechecked. Right. It's hard to imagine enough water would have been able to down a 729-foot ore freighter in seconds. Yeah. It just doesn't make sense. You've got to imagine that it's able to take on some amount of water without fucking falling apart. Yes. You know? Right. So that brings us to the second theory, which is people thinking that the Edmund Fitzgerald
1:17:55 Karen Kilgariff? actually was physically damaged either by a stress fracture incurred while it was just being slammed around in the water. Uh huh. Or because it scraped six fathom shoal. And that's what Captain Cooper thinks happened. He theorizes that the fatal blow actually happened hours before the sinking. When Captain McSorley first reported the Fitzgerald was listing, Captain Cooper has said, quote, "I don't care what anybody says, at 3:10 in the afternoon, she," meaning the Fitzgerald, "had either bottomed out or had a stress fracture in the hull." That's the only two possibilities. She was sinking from that time on. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes much more sense. Cooper also points out it's totally possible Captain McSorley didn't even feel the fatal
1:18:38 Karen Kilgariff? blow or scrape because the lake was so turbulent that it was like one of many things going on. Right. But that still doesn't explain why Captain McSorley, who was using his radio, didn't call anyone as the ship was actually sinking. Right. It adds to the suspicion that it went down within seconds. Yikes. So whether you ascribe to the theory about the hatches or the damage, many people also think that there was a final catastrophic rogue wave that took the already compromised ship and buried her before any of its crew could escape or call for help. Yeah. You'd think if it sunk, like at least some people would have gotten off of it. Gotten away somehow or, yeah. And also the fact that it's just cracked in two. Yeah.
1:19:21 Karen Kilgariff? So we'll never truly know what happened. And that, of course, has been a source of pain for the crew's loved ones over the years, many of whom first learned about the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald by watching the nightly news. Oh, man. Horrible.
1:19:38 Karen Kilgariff? So very soon after that wreck, Canadian traditional singer Gordon Lightfoot, who's beloved anyway, some great hits. If you, I think Sundown might be one of my favorite songs of all time. He has that really good low voice and the beard and he was like, he was, you know, he's a hot guy.
1:19:55 Georgia Hardstark? Drink Smiller, Genuine Draft or something.
1:19:57 Karen Kilgariff? Yeah, he was like the vibe of the mid to late seventies. So he reads about the Edmund Fitzgerald sinking in Newsweek weeks after the tragedy. And he is really upset that it wasn't more widely reported and more people don't know about that tragedy. So he goes into the studio and he records what would end up being his legendary ballad, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald, which he will later say is his proudest achievement.
1:20:26 Georgia Hardstark? Wow.
1:20:26 Karen Kilgariff? What I think is really interesting, and I did see this on TikTok, so grain of salt, but somebody said, what you hear, it was a guy that knew so much, he was like one of those music guys, and sorry, I didn't write down his name, that you knew he probably read like four books on the wreck and on Gordon Lightfoot and on Canada and the seventies, his little pork pie hat. And he said that basically Gordon Lightfoot got like an Irish traditional ballad, like those are the chords he was using and they just wrote the actual words. And they went into the studio to record it and he just told everybody, just like, play what you feel because it's a really simple tune and they got the first take.
1:21:09 Karen Kilgariff? And then when they tried to go do it again, like the real version, it just didn't feel right. So what you hear when you hear it is their very first take ever of the song.
1:21:18 Georgia Hardstark? It's wild.
1:21:19 Karen Kilgariff? Very cool. And like people were asking questions. He's like, I don't know, just do what you think sounds good. And like, that's what it ended up being, which then ended up being number one on the Canadian charts and all went to number two on the American charts. So it was a huge hit. Again, not as good as Sundown. Okay. Shouldn't be arguing that in this story. Truly, it's like all of Canada knocks on our door. So to this day, the bodies of the crew of the Edmund Fitzgerald remain buried in Lake Superior, 530 feet underwater. And over the years, the crew's friends and families have come to see the wreck site as a burial place that should be respected as such. They've made it clear they don't want dives to the wreckage. They don't want anybody bothering
1:22:04 Karen Kilgariff? it. They want everything to remain on board as it was and just for it to be like that sacred place. But for most families, there's been one exception to that rule. In the mid 90s, they agreed that the Edmund Fitzgerald's bell, which is the heart of any ship, should be excavated and brought up and used as a monument. Wow. It's a huge endeavor involving careful planning and a team of expert divers, but ultimately, it's a success. And in 1995, the bell is removed and replaced with a replica that lists the names of Captain McSorley and his 28 crewmen. Wow. And the same year, during a dedication ceremony for the bell, each man's name is
1:22:47 Karen Kilgariff? read aloud one by one, and as they are, their respective family members ring the bell to honor their lost loved one. Oh. Don Donarsky Jr. of the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society is among the speakers at this event. And he says in a speech that quote, "As we remember the men and hear the tolling of the bell, we should grieve, but we should also celebrate their lives as well. As the bell is in their hearts, so they are in the bell. And in the bell's tone are the voices of the men, and we shall listen." Wow. So Captain Bernie Cooper has already, he passed in 1993, when he was in his mid 70s, before that ceremony took place. But his heroism is reflected in the U.S. Coast
1:23:31 Karen Kilgariff? Guard Distinguished Public Service Award that he's given for his participation in the search effort. And today, Big Fitz's bell is on display at the Great Lakes Shipwreck Historical Society Museum, which is fittingly located in Whitefish Point in Michigan, which is the entry point for Whitefish Bay. Just a few weeks ago, in November of 2025, events commemorating the 50th anniversary of the wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald took place there, and as many as 3,000 people showed up to pay tribute. Wow.
1:24:02 Karen Kilgariff? So those in attendance would have heard the ship's bell ring thirty one times. So since that very first ceremony back in the nineties, two additional bell ringings have been added. It rings twenty nine times for the Edmund Fitzgerald's lost crew. It rings a thirtieth time for all sailors lost on the Great Lakes. And since twenty twenty three, there's an additional ring commemorating Gordon Lightfoot himself, who passed away that year. No way. Yeah. And what's interesting is that Gordon Lightfoot actually wrote the song and then talked to surviving loved ones and tweaked the original lyrics if there was anything that like he got wrong or that he changed.
1:24:42 Karen Kilgariff? And basically, this song has undeniably preserved the history and kept the story of this horrible disaster alive. And the week of November thirteenth, twenty twenty five, when it was the anniversary, The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald topped the US Billboard's Rock Digital Song Sales for the very first time because four million Americans streamed it that week. What? Yep. And that's the story of the sinking of the SS Edmund Fitzgerald. Wow. Vince is gonna be so pleased that I now know what the fuck happened. What all that's about. Yeah. I mean, it's such a, it's so funny because it's like, there's so many people that really love that song and it, like, it's important to them.
1:25:24 Karen Kilgariff? But also, if you want to absolutely destroy a karaoke night, you sign up for that song. In a good way or bad? Destroy it like? The worst way, where everyone's like, oh, because it's a bummer. It's valid. And it goes, there's probably ninety five verses, like, you're just like, and it's the same, it's the same thing the whole time. Okay. That's good to know because destroy can mean anything. If you're out to ruin someone's karaoke birthday party. There you go. That's my recommendation. Write in if you disagree with me and you're super upset right now. Speaking of being super upset, this has been my favorite murder. That's right. We hope we've helped you process some big feelings today. You've helped us so much. Yeah. And is it twenty twenty six?
1:26:08 Karen Kilgariff? Not yet. Oh. We're gonna make it to the end. Real soon. So, so soon. Real soon. Until we do, stay sexy. And don't get murdered. Goodbye.
1:26:21 Speaker 00 Elvis, do you want a cookie?
1:26:30 Karen Kilgariff? This has been an Exactly Right Production.
1:26:32 Georgia Hardstark? Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.
1:26:36 Karen Kilgariff? Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo.
1:26:38 Georgia Hardstark? This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.
1:26:40 Karen Kilgariff? Our researchers are Mira McGlashan and Ali Elkin.
1:26:43 Georgia Hardstark? Email your hometowns to [email protected] .
1:26:46 Karen Kilgariff? And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.
1:26:48 Georgia Hardstark? Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
1:26:53 Karen Kilgariff? Or you can watch us on YouTube. Search for My Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe. Goodbye.
1:27:06 Karen Kilgariff? Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.
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1:27:37 Karen Kilgariff? Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot. Goodbye.
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