Boston Does L.A., Honeymoon Harden, a Denver Hiccup, and a Kawhi Deep Dive With Zach Lowe

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Zach Lowe LIVE on Netflix right after Celtics vs. Lakers to react to the game before recapping the NBA slate from the weekend (01:11). Then, they dive deep and go over Kawhi Leonard's 14-year career (01:09:13). Host: Bill SimmonsGuest: Zach LoweProducers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit mddallies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 2:04Bill Simmons?

  All right, live on Netflix, it's the Bill Simmons Podcast. Zach Lowe is here. We're a little bit after Celtics Lakers. We had some technical difficulties, but not difficulties for Zach Lowe. We were worried the snowstorm was gonna just inundate you with some sort of blizzard, and I would just be soloing for an hour and a half. But that's not what happened.

• 2:22Speaker 04

  We're persevering. The worst is yet to come. I'm not looking forward to the shoveling that's gonna have to happen here on the East Coast. Another great advertisement for life in Los Angeles, by the way.

• 2:32Bill Simmons?

  Don't throw out your back shoveling. We need you. This is this is pod season right now. We're about to hit the best part. March, April, May, June. We need Zach Lowe. All right. Lots to cover. We're gonna start with Celtics Lakers, cuz that just happened. I did not go because I was excited to be live on Netflix right after the game, but I was confident. And the Body Language Doctor was watching both teams very carefully.

• 2:58Bill Simmons?

  Really a tale of two teams that game, Zach. You have a Celtic team that is basically built around these three guys, one of whom is an MVP candidate. The other are two very, very good guards and then a bunch of dudes who try hard. And that's the Celtics, but they play well together. They have, there's a spirit to them. They, you can see they're pulling for each other. They're used to each other. And then you watch this weird Lakers team that when they're bad, it looks really bad. Sometimes you'll catch them some nights where they're on cruise control for three quarters and then they can flip it on for a quarter and steal a game. But a lot of times it's games like today where it's a bad loss, but it almost feels worse than a loss. But the fact is it's 82 games. It's a loss. Who cares? You move on.

• 3:42Bill Simmons?

  And yet I don't, I don't love what I see from them. What, what is wrong with them? If you had to say what's wrong with the Lakers?

• 3:49Speaker 04

  Well, it's another double-digit loss, right? And it feels like all of their losses are double-digit losses where it, which is why it feels so much worse than 34 and 22 or whatever they are. But we knew like the defense was gonna be a problem with, with LeBron, Luca and Reeves all together at the same time. Although I thought Luca, Luca was like the, the best guy they had on Peyton Pritchard tonight. Every cooked everybody else except for Luca. And then, you know, like, so, so that was always gonna be a problem and just balancing offense, defense. All right, we need Smart for some defense, but he missed a million threes tonight and they left him open and they put centers on him when the Lakers took their centers off the floor. So, all right, K. Devlin, you just guard Marcus Smart, but don't actually guard him.

• 4:28Speaker 04

  And then just, you know, they're an interesting team to watch game to game, particularly now that Reeves is back in the starting lineup because they have games, like I've, I've seen all their recent games where the three of them are in sync to a much larger degree than they were today. And then tonight. They have, they have games like tonight where it just feels like the three of them minus three or four set plays that happens after dead balls or timeouts and then just vanish. The three of them just sort of seem like they exist on their own islands within the offense and they don't really do anything when they don't have the ball. And that's when I think the body language doctor probably perks up like, oh, Luca's just standing in the corner. LeBron's just standing in the corner. Where's Reeves? Reeves was invisible for three quarters of the game.

• 5:09Speaker 04

  So it's just like, and then they have this Ayton thing where, you know, his numbers might look good today, they didn't. And it's just every game, every other game, they, JJ is just like, can I just play none of my centers? Is that okay? Like, we're gonna get smoked on the glass and defensively, but it's, it's just a weird, it's not their year. We knew it wasn't gonna be their year. It's not their year.

• 5:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and yet their record is good enough that after Denver lost today, they had a chance to ascend into, uh, we have game seven at home in round one. I don't fully understand it as I'm watching it. Like even Friday night, they beat the Clippers, right? Kind of held on. It was the same kind of typical Laker win where you, you never felt good about it the whole game, but you also kind of felt like they were gonna win, but it's not like they were playing great and they could just have these little stretches. But I think what's, what's weird about them, and I don't really fully understand it because I think you have three guys that are actually okay at making other guys better to, as an understatement. And yet I don't feel like they make each other better and it's a lot of like taking

• 6:09Bill Simmons?

  turns stuff, which maybe some of that has to do with, they just haven't played enough games together, but it just feels really clumsy and, uh, it's surprising to me and it's, but as somebody who can't stand the Lakers, like we're, now we're in March and it still feels rocky and weird and some of the body language stuff is weird and, and I think they're realizing in real time, like what were we thinking counting on Deandre Ayton? Why did, why did we talk ourselves into this? What were we thinking?

• 6:38Speaker 04

  Well, he had, he had a couple missed rebounds tonight where they just, I mean, like the Celtics only had nine offensive rebounds tonight, but it felt like more than that because every one of them was so demoralizing and it was just a Celtic guy trying harder than a Laker guy. And a couple of times it was Kada and Ayton and just Ayton deciding, I'm not boxing out and Kada being like, I'm just gonna rampage over you and get the ball.

• 6:59Bill Simmons?

  Right, Cade was what they were hoping they were gonna get from Aitin. Right, Cade is just having a better season. He's been more consistent. It's not like he's an All-Star or anything, but he's pretty consistently a double-double guy around that, but he tries. And that's what was interesting about as this game went along. And the Celtics can just bring in their dragons off the bench, right? It's like, hey, have you met Hugo Gonzalez?

• 7:19Speaker 04

  Hugo, Hugo, everybody met Hugo tonight, everybody.

• 7:22Bill Simmons?

  He was all over the, almost threw a no-hitter for the last five minutes of the second quarter, and then finally fell for a double fake by Reeves. Jordan Walsh, they can bring in. Shireman and Hauser, who are both these guys that teams feel like, oh, let's target this guy. And they're always a little better defensively than I think they're gonna realize. But everybody in that team fights. And then the big thing. I just think, so there's an MVP conversation we want to have a little bit. And I'm not saying Jalen's the MVP of the league, but he's just done this all year. I mean, this was his 28, 30-point game, which is, I think he's played 51 games. So over 50% of his games, he's had 30 points. He hasn't had, sometimes you can goose your scoring average because you had like a 63-point game

• 8:07Bill Simmons?

  or a 58-point game. He hasn't had those. I think his highest game was 50. For the most part, he's always between 27 and 33. And it's games like today, he finished, I think it was 32, 8, 7, he had three steals. But he's been so consistent. There's a really interesting first, and first all-team NBA convo brewing. Because there's basically-

• 8:31Speaker 04

  It's brewing, it's bubbling.

• 8:32Bill Simmons?

  Because we have Jokic and SGA and Luka and Jalen and Cade. And then Wemby, if he wants to crash the party. But the way Brunson has a chance to come on here down the stretch. It's, and I don't know how it's gonna shake out, but I think right now, would you have Jalen in that top five? Would you have him first team?

• 8:50Speaker 04

  I would not. I would have him second team. Well, I mean, the first three are SGA, Jokic and Wemby if he qualifies, right? And then I think you mentioned Cade, I would have Cade over Jalen Brown. The two guys who you didn't mention, who I feel like I'm kind of going crazy because they're always, it's probably because their teams, the perception of their teams is slightly eh compared to how high, how you like how the Pistons have obliterated expectations, the Celtics have obliterated expectations. Donovan Mitchell and Anthony Edwards, I would have both of them over Jalen Brown. They've had unbelievable seasons and yeah, I realize the Cavs lost today to the Thunder and they've been, they've been kind of meh, but they are 36 and 22 and they're like DOA without Donovan Mitchell for the season.

• 9:34Speaker 04

  And the Wolves, I mean, what a bad 24 hours for everybody behind San Antonio in the Western Conference because the Wolves are about to kick this game to Philadelphia if they haven't already. But you know, they're 35 and 22, I think, or 35 and 23, maybe after this game. Good, solid team. We'll see where they end up, but like those guys' numbers are unbelievable. And particularly Ant is a really good two-way player, but Jalen Brown's right in that sort of tier with all of those guys. I'd probably put him a little bit above Brunson, who you also mentioned because of the two-way stuff. But it's a really interesting group of guys below the Jokic, SGA, Wemby trio. And if one or two of those guys falls out because they don't hit 65 games,

• 10:16Speaker 04

  it's like we're staring at complete chaos MVP and All-NBA.

• 10:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. So there's two separate conversations, right? Where we're judging people on the season, but then there's also who are the actual best guys in the league? And that's where Wemby, even though he hasn't played enough games yet, he's either the third or fourth best player in the league now, just game to game when you're actually watching it, right? Wouldn't you have him in that somewhere? If you have SGA and Jokic 1-2, he's at least battling for the conversation of that 3-4-5 area.

• 10:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, absolutely. For sure. I think 5 is the floor. I probably would still have Giannis 3 when healthy because he's just been that dominant of a player this season. Maybe the best.

• 10:56Bill Simmons?

  I forgot about Giannis.

• 10:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, but yeah, but that mean like the Bucks are, they still exist and Giannis theoretically is going to come back. Probably is going to come back. I don't know. But yeah, Wemby is. Wemby's a monster, man. There's just no way around it. And I just think he's, you know, a little bit above those other guys.

• 11:13Bill Simmons?

  Well, because you have the MVP odds where SGA is still favored. Drop down to minus 150 today on FanDuel because he keeps missing games. Joker is around three to one. Cade went from 14 to one, plus 650. And then Wemby dropped to 25 to one. And Cade and Wemby are the interesting ones because Wemby,

• 11:35Bill Simmons?

  they might be the one seed in the West for all we know. They're, they're, what are they? 40 and 16 and OKC's 44 and 14. So there's only two back in the last column. It's not inconceivable. They can jump. They want 11 straight. Yeah, they have the tiebreaker. Right? Cade's case is just, we've seen this happen a couple of times in NBA history. The most famous one was Derrick Rose in 11. Where it's like, I don't, this doesn't 100% pass the MVP sniff test, but I can't think of anyone else to vote. And this is a one seed. This guy does everything. He does everything down the stretch. And even though the stats may not totally measure up to some of the other candidates, I'm going to talk myself into this guy because I can't come up

• 12:17Bill Simmons?

  with a better candidate. And the only way you would do that is if SGA doesn't get the, get the maximum. If he doesn't get to 65. I think SGA, if he can get the maximum, is going to win the 65.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, there's a reason he's the odds on, odds on favorite. Can I read you a crazy clutch? When we get into these debates and players are super close together like this, that's when I start to look at clutch games. And I realize like all the nerds will be like, but clutch is random. It's just a small sample size. Oh, yeah, the whole season's a small sample size. I'm splitting hairs. This is just another hair I want to look at. Cade for the season, last five minutes of close games, 49% from the floor. That's on 75 shot attempts, only seven turnovers, 18 assists. The Pistons are plus 49 in those minutes. Monster clutch season. That's any, only one guy has taken more than those 75 shots and it's Tyrese Maxey who's been doing everything for Philly all year.

• 13:10Speaker 04

  He's 44 of 92. And I kept trying to find Luca. It's like, because you know, the Lakers, the thing Lakers is they win all these close games and they lose in all these blowouts. It's like Luca must have a really good clutch clutch year. Luca has taken the same amount of shots in the last five minutes of close games as Chris Middleton. This season Luca is seven of 16 on shots in the last five minutes of close games. Chris Middleton is eight of 16 Peyton Watson checking in at three of 16. Jose Alvarado jumping in at five out of 16. I mean, that's how few clutch minutes the Lakers have actually played. It's a really remarkable stat.

• 13:50Bill Simmons?

  That's crazy. Well, that's one of the reasons I'm a little cooler on Mitchell. So, cause I just disagree that he's been more valuable than Jalen because the clutch stats for Mitchell aren't awesome. I also don't think like, yeah, they had injuries the first, what 40, 45 games, but they still had him. He still had rebounders and some people to play with. And I didn't understand why none of, none of that was his fault. Whereas Jalen was basically playing the whole year without Tatum and the Celtics had a better record. So I just feel like it's a record thing with that and the Celtics have been better than the Cavs.

• 14:25Speaker 04

  I feel like I'm taking

• 14:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:28Speaker 04

  Crazy pills on Donovan Mitchell. Like, what, like, what am I missing? So he's averaging 29 points a game, same as Jalen Brown.

• 14:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Forty eight point six percent from the field. Jalen Brown's forty eight point four going into tonight.

• 14:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:43Speaker 04

  Thirty seven point six percent on threes. Jalen Brown's thirty four point five. I don't mean to put, put the two of them against each other, but you did. So I am fifty eight percent on twos. Fifty three percent for Jalen Brown. Six assists for Donovan Mitchell, five assists for Jalen Brown. We'll call it, you know, I just don't, and Jalen Brown's a better defensive player, but I, just because of his size. I don't think it's some enormous gap. And I kind of just, I think this season, there, there are a couple of ways to frame this season for the Celtics. Right? Jalen Brown, he, oh, Tatum's been out the whole year. He did so much with nothing and look, I didn't think the Celtics were going to be nearly this good. So I kind of have to half believe that. But I think what we've learned is there's an infrastructure of both talent and coaching and system here that is better than we thought it was going into the season.

• 15:27Speaker 04

  And in Cleveland, like Darius Garland was a total zero, basically like even when he played, he did not play very well. Mobley's been injured a lot. Struce has been injured the whole season. Hunter was poop and they traded him. Jared Allen's been up and down like I, Sam Merrill was, had a broken hand for a while and was, I do think it's been. We can have the more with less debate. It's it's just but to me, it's just degrees of it. Donovan Mitchell has been the only constant on that team. And now they're starting to click, but and I just think it's a I just think it's a perception thing, right? Like, everyone was pessimistic about the Celtics and their feel good story. Everybody was way high on the Cavs and it feels like they're disappointing. And I just look at Donovan Mitchell's numbers and I watch him play. He's so explosive. He can get any shot he wants at any time.

• 16:09Speaker 04

  He's shooting well from all over the place and he never even in did you see to Tim Bontemps straw poll? There's like a there's like seven guys and then there's a and Jalen is like six or seven. And then there's just a chasm. And then like one guy or two guys put Donovan Mitchell third place, but what am I? What am I missing?

• 16:27Bill Simmons?

  Can I counter now?

• 16:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 16:31Bill Simmons?

  Jalen has been awesome as a two way player and as a consistent day to day, week to week force.

• 16:38Speaker 04

  No one is disputing that.

• 16:40Bill Simmons?

  No, but listen. I feel like this gets lost sometimes when we talk about seasons, especially. It's the week to week consistency that we throw away. It's like just durability. I always value, I think, more than some of the other people that vote for this award. Like, the Celtics started out 0-3. They are 36 and 16 since, 37 and 16 since. And he's always been there. He's if he's taking a game off, it's one game and he's back. He's guarded some of the best guys in the league and taken the challenge sometimes. Like, when they play the Pistons, he guards Cade. You know, like, if if this game was, I think they were saving him for the fourth quarter night, but I think they would have put him on Luca when they went against the Clippers.

• 17:25Bill Simmons?

  He guarded Kawhi. Like, he's taken that challenge. And I think when you know what you're getting from a guy night to night on both ends, I'm we're getting probably 30 from this guy and he's going to play real hard defense and he's going to go to the basket. The part that I never really fully thought that he had until this year. Was a sense of the rhythm of the game. And you could see it today in a couple of spots when he would push the pace. Because the Lakers, that's their weakness, right? Sometimes they don't run back, some they don't want to do this at all. And there were some times when he's just like, I'm getting in the basket. Like, we can kind of go for the kill here. I don't know if he was as smart of a player like that offensively. I just didn't fully think he was there until this year.

• 18:09Bill Simmons?

  So I, I just think when I watch everything, there's a mastery to what he's doing game to game. That I think is the biggest reason they're successful. That and the, and the two guards that have always, one of them can, seems to get hot for an hour. I don't really, the stats don't back it up, but it's like today it was Pritchard, right? He just kind of got hot for an hour. Then the next game it might be Derrick White, but I just think what Jalen's doing has been really impressive.

• 18:35Speaker 04

  Would you have him over Anthony Edwards?

• 18:40Bill Simmons?

  It's that, this is why I brought this up. I think this is really.

• 18:43Speaker 04

  It's gonna be fun.

• 18:44Bill Simmons?

  I would have him over Mitchell. To me, Mitchell's not first team, but I think Edwards, it's Edwards and Jalen and Wemby probably for one spot. Is how this is gonna play out unless somebody misses.

• 18:56Speaker 04

  You're just like, Luca's just all first team.

• 19:00Speaker 04

  It's gonna be, it's gonna be interesting, isn't it? Like, it's just someone, someone awesome is not going to be first team all NBA if everyone's eligible.

• 19:07Bill Simmons?

  If Luca misses, like he has another stretch where he misses four to five games.

• 19:13Bill Simmons?

  Maybe, but there's, there's a level that he goes to. Even, even today, there was like a little two minute stretch where he's just like, I'm just gonna post this guy up, but I'm offended that you're guarding me with him. And, and when he misses, it's surprising. But he can have, I didn't think he was good today and he still ended up with like 27. The foul, the foul bitching stuff is the worst it's been in a while.

• 19:38Speaker 04

  It's back to peak, it's back to peak unwatchability. It's every single play now. It's, it's back to where it was at, at its very worst in Dallas when it got so bad that the Mavs had to finally call him out publicly.

• 19:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's so bad that even LeBron's like, wow.

• 19:54Bill Simmons?

  Wow, what's this guy? This guy's really bitching for cause, but I don't think it helps them. I mean, big picture from a Lakers standpoint. Like, why didn't they get Alvarado? Why didn't they do anything? Why didn't they think Marcus Smart was somebody? Like, did they have aspirations to actually be good this year?

• 20:15Speaker 04

  Good use of the word aspirations, by the way.

• 20:16Bill Simmons?

  Not with the Clippers.

• 20:19Speaker 04

  I think they had aspirations to be good. I think that's probably, if you caught them in a real moment, that's probably about where their aspirations ended and their aspirations are focused mostly on this summer. When they have three first round picks to trade. But to your point, the Knicks got Alvarado without giving up a first round pick. The Lakers got Luke Kennard. And I enjoyed on the broadcast today how they're just, the whole NBC crew was aghast that Luke Kennard, percentage wise, the best or second or third best three point shooter of all time, is only taking like four, four and a half threes per game as a Laker. Like, that's unacceptable. I'm like, that, welcome to the Luke Kennard experience. It looks awesome on paper and then he doesn't shoot enough to justify the lack of. This is every, this is why he's on the Lakers after being on a million other teams.

• 21:01Bill Simmons?

  You've had a few awesome on paper. Don't get too carried away by the signing guys. And I think he would be the point guard on the team. I don't know who else is on that team. Ayton's been on there, but it's almost not fair to put him on. But there's just certain guys who look better on paper. Luke Kennard, I got sucked in. I thought when they got him, I was like, perfect, perfect trade. But the guy to get was Alvarado, who I don't also know where the Celtics were on that one either. So they give up, they give up Terry and two second round picks? And got a guy who played crunch time last night in the Rockets game?

• 21:38Speaker 04

  I don't think the Rockets played crunch time in that game. I think it was just the Knicks five on O in crunch time. But yes, Jose Alvarado was one of the five and had back to back steals. A layup that I'm still not sure how he made it over a much larger player in transition. It was incredible shot, but yeah, and obviously the crowd loves him already.

• 21:55Bill Simmons?

  And that's the thing. I mean, I would have, if I was a GM, I would have traded for him two months ago if I had any sort of playoff aspirations crossed with a home crowd. Cause that's like just your, like, we saw it. We saw it in the brief moments when the Pelicans have mattered over the last couple of years. Like you see what, what that guy is. He's perfect. The thing that was shocking about Knicks Rockets last night was they actually got away with playing him and Brunson together.

• 22:20Speaker 04

  They do it a lot. They played the two of them and Shamet together too.

• 22:23Bill Simmons?

  But against the Rockets?

• 22:26Bill Simmons?

  I was surprised. I was like, whoa. And it worked.

• 22:29Speaker 04

  It did. It was not a good night for the Rockets. Not a good night. I don't know if you want to talk that one out, but another, another bad crunch time performance by the Rockets who had, I think, nine turnovers in the fourth quarter and they ranged from Shengun threw the ball to nobody. There was a backcourt violation. Durant dribbled the ball off his foot. I think at one point it was just every manner of, you know, all right, we got nothing. Shengun just ISO from the three-point arc with eight on the shot clock and dribble 14 times and maybe something good will happen and something good never happened.

• 22:59Bill Simmons?

  I was on two different text threads this morning with Celtic fans. All of us kind of getting PTSD for the, the email season that the Celtics had. When it would go bad and it would just get stagnant and nobody moved and there would be no solutions to a defense kind of figuring out the offense. Cause I've, I've been on this, Legler was on this podcast like five or six weeks ago and he was talking about the Rockets and he mentioned how frustrated he was by how they use Thompson. And he was like, they really only use them like trying to go downhill and, and beating guys one-on-one or, you know, trying to get to the rim or kicking out. And he was like, I don't understand why they don't post them up. He'd be so devastating around the rim. They never do it. And I think

• 23:44Bill Simmons?

  his skillset, especially when he's being defended by smaller people. I think his skillset lends itself to that. I don't know why they don't do it. You're watching yesterday, he either had Alvarado or Brunson on him. And it was like the perfect example of like, just put him near the block and run the offense through him because the Knicks are going to have to double that immediately. I don't, they just kind of get stagnant and then just throw it to Durant and cross their fingers. Seems to be their offense. Unless they throw it to Shengun, same thing.

• 24:11Speaker 04

  I'll, I'll tell you what I was thinking as the meltdown happened in the fourth quarter is. Look, I understand why Ime Udoka may be a little hesitant to trust Reed Shepard as much as he trusts his core guys who all have the same sort of skillset, big, rangy, defense-first players.

• 24:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 24:29Speaker 04

  I just think there are games where Reed Shepard's got to play more, and when your offense is just going off the rails like that because you're not running anything, I just think you bring him in for Jabari Smith Jr. or Tyrese, and it's just, all right, we're going to run some Reed Shepard, Shengun two-man game, Reed Shepard, Durant two-man game, loosen things up. Like, all of a sudden, boom, stuff opens up and like, good things happen. And I understand defensively, he's going to get picked on a little bit, but he can guard Jose Alvarado, he's got good hands, he makes plays.

• 24:53Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  I think they're gonna, they're gonna have, maybe it was last night, they're just gonna have to cross the Rubicon at some point of like, this guy's either a huge part of our team, or, or we're just putting that off for another year. Because there are games that just scream for, with Van Vliet out, we need, we need more of this guy in the game. And last night, that's, as it was happening, that's all I was thinking, it was like, they should just, can you put him back in the game?

• 25:17Bill Simmons?

  Well, I, I wholeheartedly agree, and I would even one-up you. I think if they don't do it, they're a cross-off team for the playoffs. I don't see it, I don't see it happening with them with the way they're, they're built. They don't get transition when he's not in there, right? They just slow down, they don't get fast breaks anymore. He opens the court for them. And then, on top of it, what you just mentioned, like, they can run two-man stuff with them, but it's like, the ceiling of the team, he just makes it higher. And if they're not going to get there this year with him, then they're not going to get there anyway. It's certainly not going to happen with the team they have. I don't really understand it. Because you're just throwing away fast breaks for basically the entire fourth quarter.

• 25:57Speaker 04

  Well, and that, and that's one of the frustrating, not frustrating, that's one of the sort of, like, built-in, the built-in dissonance of the Rockets, and every team has some built-in dissonance, but like, Reed Shepard and Amen Thompson are born to play fast. Like, they are born to fly up and down the court, and Reed Shepard should be shooting a lot of the threes, and Amen Thompson is a speed demon, and the rest of the team just doesn't play like that. They're more of a just battering ram of offensive rebounding and slow it down, iso basketball. It's just such an interesting push and pull.

• 26:25Bill Simmons?

  These older guys, you have these old famous superstars who are just used to, this is how I play, guys. Let's play this style. We're gonna do that. And I think as you get older, it just gets tougher to move into a different thing. This has not been a great Kevin Durant week. I'm gonna say it was in the bottom five Kevin Durant weeks to ranking, power rankings, probably in the maybe worst three.

• 26:47Speaker 04

  It's not, it's not been good. It's not been good. How are you? Can I ask you a Celtics question?

• 26:52Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 26:53Speaker 04

  Since we're coming off Celtics Lakers.

• 26:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 26:55Speaker 04

  How are you feeling two weeks into the Vooch experience?

• 26:59Bill Simmons?

  Today was not good.

• 27:02Bill Simmons?

  Today was one of those, they might actually won by 30 if Luca Garza was playing.

• 27:07Bill Simmons?

  But I, it's gonna be rocky. It's gonna be up and down. There's some nights when he looks 35.

• 27:14Bill Simmons?

  And I don't mean that as a compliment, where it's just like the rebounds over his head and he's a step slow and you just lose athleticism and a whole bunch of stuff. Then there's other nights when it looks great. I think it's certainly worth the experiment. But I don't know, I haven't been wowed. I won't be bouncing my grandkids on my lap, telling them about the Vooch trade of 2026. Probably not happening. But as the two part with Tatum,

• 27:41Bill Simmons?

  it still makes sense.

• 27:43Speaker 04

  Are you getting nervous that there seems to be like a Ramona Shelburne? I talked to Jason Tatum and he wants to make clear he's not sure 100% sure he's coming back. Or Chris Haynes tweets, are you starting to get nervous that this may not happen?

• 27:57Bill Simmons?

  No, because if he doesn't feel good about coming back, I don't want him to come back.

• 28:01Speaker 04

  Okay, so you're good either, you're good either way. You just want him to do what's good.

• 28:04Bill Simmons?

  I want him to feel good about it. I just think they're covering all their bases and trying not to get people's hopes up. The Missoula, I don't know if you've seen the Missoula press conferences, but they've been riveting.

• 28:13Speaker 04

  What has he said about it?

• 28:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, there was one today where somebody was like, was Jason out there practicing today? And he's like, yes, he was. And or he was like, was he out there for practice today? It was like, yes. And the follow up question was, was he playing with the team? And Missoula just didn't answer and stared at the guy like a fucking maniac and just didn't answer. So they're, they're, they've basically.

• 28:41Bill Simmons?

  Their strategy is we're not talking about it. You can ask us, we're not telling you. But I think he's coming back unless there's some sort of setback. I don't think they make the Vooch trade otherwise. I don't.

• 28:52Speaker 04

  Him practicing would seem to suggest that the Vooch trade, no matter how much they try to sort of funnel it through in the media, that this was a trade we were going to make anyway. It's not connected. Like, I don't 100% believe that. And I believe this, you know, they have the negotiation tactic, like who blinks first, or like if you're interviewing someone, you ask them a question and if they don't want to answer it and they're silent, you don't, don't jump in, just let the silence, just live there. Joe Missoula is going to wait anyone out. Joe Missoula will win that contest. He will stare at that dude until the PR guys are all right. Next, I guess we're done, guys. Next question.

• 29:25Bill Simmons?

  You got that, uh, you definitely got that feeling. Well, I look at the, the minutes today. Hugo played 14, Walsh played seven, Pritchard played 37. And you would think 22 of those minutes go to Tatum when he's back. That would be my guess. So basically Gonzalez is out and Pritchard probably loses 10. And that's, that's how you do it. Or, or Walsh is out, Gonzalez is cut in half. And that's how you get the minutes. We're, um, we're going to take a break. We have a lot more to discuss here on the Sunday night pre Blizzard extravagance. I'll come next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The football season may be coming to an end,

• 30:08Bill Simmons?

  but things are only getting started on the court, on the hardwood, on the wood, as some people call it. FanDuel, the number one choice for same game parlays, live betting, and much more during the NBA season. Don't forget with FanDuel, you get paid instantly when you win. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21 plus and present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Venmo. Supporting your team never gets old, but here's something new. You can now pay for your game day wings and rep your team at the same time. How?

• 30:52Bill Simmons?

  By getting your college colors on your card. Score more with the college branded Venmo debit card. Get up to 5% cash back with Venmo Stash. Sign up at venmo.com/collegecard. The Venmo Mastercard is issued by the Bancorp Bank, N A. Select schools available. Venmo Stash bundle terms and exclusions apply at venmo.me/stashterms. Max $100 cash back per. Hey, I was lucky enough to get a son and a daughter through their early teens and their mid teens in the social media era. And even though we were constantly monitoring it, there's still a whole bunch of stuff that can go wrong. And that's why Instagram teen accounts have automatic protections on by default.

• 31:37Bill Simmons?

  Built in content settings for the content teens can see. Contact limits for who can contact them and time management tools like daily time limits. And sleep mode. Teens are automatically placed into teen accounts. Teens under 16 will need a parent's permission to change any of these settings to be less strict. Instagram will continue adding built in safety features to help create age appropriate experiences. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. This episode is brought to by WeatherTech. Whether it's a pumpkin spice coffee that goes splat in your seat or a weekend tailgate that leaves your trunk full of gear and who knows what? You're going to want WeatherTech in your vehicle, whether you call it fall, autumn, or spooky season.

• 32:21Bill Simmons?

  Whether the mess is your fault, the kids, the dogs, or the weather's fault, you're going to want WeatherTech for American made floor liners and a cargo liner that laugh in the face of fall weather. Visit weatherTech.com today. This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead? But what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness, though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three, Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save. Savings vary. Month. Detroit first in the East, Celtics second right now.

• 33:05Bill Simmons?

  One win more than the Knicks and the Cavs. Nobody else is going to crack that top four. Does it matter? Does home court matter as much as it used to with this stuff? Cause I feel like last year, we hit the point where it felt like anybody could win on any court. And I don't know how that's changed from when in the eighties, all you wanted to do is get, get game seven at home. And even maybe in the nineties. But now we've hit a point, I don't, I don't even know if it necessarily matters if the Celtics are two, three, four, if the Knicks are three, four, two. Does it matter?

• 33:37Speaker 04

  I think it still matters. It definitely matters less than it used to for, I don't even know, a bunch of different reasons. Three point, everything from the three point shot to travel conditions.

• 33:49Speaker 04

  All things considered, I'd still like to have it, but I think it, it probably gets outranked now by matchups. If there's a matchup that's just bad for you, or you want to avoid, or whatever the case, whatever it is, if there's a pathway to the conference finals that is easier than the other one that you are, is your alternative. I think that trumps, if you sacrifice home court to get that pathway, I think you would, you would probably do that in some cases. And this may be one of them. I mean, these teams are all, they're all sort of unproven in their own ways, right? I don't think any of them is totally scared of any of the other four or three, but all things considered, I think Detroit is super happy that they will have game seven of any playoff series at home.

• 34:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and that ship has sailed. Through the Celtics.

• 34:33Bill Simmons?

  And you fall to four. And you get to play Detroit in round two, a team that you've had some really good games against. And that's set pretty nicely with. And then you could have the Knicks and Cavs beat the hell out of each other in round two. I wonder if, I don't, I don't think they would be tears. If that was how it played out. And then I wonder like, who do you think, like, who do the Knicks not want to play the most? Would you say Detroit?

• 34:58Speaker 04

  I think, well, this is sort of the same thing happened last year with Detroit and New York, where Detroit won the regular season series and New York beat them in the playoffs. And we all kind of agreed, New York was more talented and should have won that series. But Detroit has just pantsed them three times this year. And the Knicks can say, well, Towns was out this game and Ananobe was out that game and Robinson was out with, with one of them in one of the games. That's all true, but like, all of them have been blowouts and Detroit just has out toughed them out, out. Outthought them, outplayed them in every possible way. So I think that would be, and the Knicks have enjoyed playing against Cleveland, dating to the playoffs three years ago. So I, they would probably say, we don't care. It's fine. But Detroit has to be in their

• 35:41Speaker 04

  heads a little bit. Just are we, are we as tough and together as that team is? Cause that was the really impressive thing. Watching Detroit up close at Madison Square Garden last week. Like they don't have a lot of shooting. We know that. We know that that's like the weak spot that everyone expects to be, including me. A little bit more of a hindrance in the playoffs than it is in the regular season. We know they make up for it with like cutting and offensive rebounding and smart interior passing. But it's just, it's one thing on TV and it's another thing in person. Like they didn't have Durin or Stewart in that game against the Knicks from the suspensions. And like even their role players, like Javante Green comes in and just moves the ball. Like they all make the right pass. They all make the extra pass. They all make quick decisions. Karis Levert is making quick decisions.

• 36:25Speaker 04

  Duncan Robinson, quick decisions. Dennis Jenkins. No one is holding the ball other than Cade. And there's a certain like, that level of cohesion and trust and pace within the half court really does compensate for their sort of lack of shooting compared to the other elite teams. They're really, really, they're polished. They're more polished than they have any right to be, given that they're still pretty young and inexperienced. And I think that will carry over into the playoffs. I think they got a lot of the playoff like jitters out of the way last year against the Knicks and they're, they're, they're ready. I think they're ready to make the finals.

• 36:57Bill Simmons?

  It's a little like OKC when they lost that Dallas series. What was that? Two years ago? But it was the best thing probably got, got them ready for next year. The Pistons at least had that one series. Maybe my, my Hornets will have the same thing. Then their feisty 1-8 battle against the Pistons.

• 37:15Speaker 04

  Well, they, they won tonight, right?

• 37:17Bill Simmons?

  They did.

• 37:17Speaker 04

  LaMelo went crazy. So they, they had.

• 37:19Bill Simmons?

  Really hard win against Washington's G League team.

• 37:22Speaker 04

  Uh, yeah, if they had split their previous, they had lost to Cleveland and someone else. Good.

• 37:28Bill Simmons?

  Two tough, two tough, late fourth quarter games. Yeah, two really good teams.

• 37:33Speaker 04

  I wish they had won one of those, uh, cause just for entertainment purposes, I want them to butt up into the seven, eight bracket.

• 37:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  And Philly quietly is slipping down from, they're still six, but they're just a game ahead and actually tied with Orlando in the loss column. And that, if that were a four team race for six, that would be quite a lot of fun. And if Charlotte could butt their way into that, it would be quite a lot of fun. But that's another, that's another thing about, you mentioned a home court. Like I, in the play in era more than ever, I think the number one seed, you'd be able to pick its opponent from who comes out of the play. And I don't want to get stuck with like, oh, Embiid is healthy and suddenly the Sixers are awesome. And we just drew them in the eighth seed. I think you should get to pick.

• 38:12Bill Simmons?

  I, uh, would not do that, but I would do five home games in round one for the one seeds.

• 38:17Speaker 04

  I like that too. Reward if, if, if we're going to have this over long regular season and we're going to pound our fist about, we must care about it. You can't low advantage, you can't tank, we value durability, well then really reward it then.

• 38:28Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like go two, two, three for round one. It's like, if you want to go play in and then go against the one seed, you're going to have to really beat them. Uh, one more thing on Detroit, Boston, Knicks, Cleveland, and we're about to talk to Cleveland. I think Cleveland has just liked playing Boston for years. I don't know what it is, but it's, it's a matchup they like. There's been some rough Celtics losses over the years. So Cleveland, last 25, 19 and six, second offensive rating.

• 38:58Bill Simmons?

  Harden, honeymoon Harden stage is always great. We'll see how, how it's doing in round two, but, um, the one thing that I've noticed, cause they just, you know, they look better partly because they have more good players. Cause as you said earlier, Garland didn't play all year. But they always have now, somebody good, really, really good with the ball for 48 minutes. Right? Mitchell comes out, it's like Harden, stay out there and run the offense for us. Harden's averaging a 24, 10 and 5 and he's shooting 48% from 3. It's pretty good as like your, hey, can you run the offense for a few minutes? So there's a pressure that they can put on now for two and a half hours that I think just feels a little different. And then the other thing is the lobs.

• 39:41Bill Simmons?

  Like Harden already in, what's it been, six games? It's like, hey, Jared Allen, remember when he used to get lobs? Hey, Evan Mobley, lobs. It's just, it feels like it's opened up and they're the team, I think they're the scariest team in the East. All due respect to Detroit. I agree with everything you said about Detroit, but the ceiling for Cleveland is the highest, I think.

• 40:04Speaker 04

  You might be right on the ceiling because of, you know, we've barely seen Harden, Mitchell, Mobley, Allen, and the two-way possibilities of that foursome.

• 40:16Bill Simmons?

  And with, with a bunch of shooters, like Struce will be back at some point, Merrill.

• 40:20Speaker 04

  I mean, I'm not, I'm not, we're 60 games into the season and it's like, they hope to have Struce back for the playoffs. I'm just so wary of like, we think he'll be back for the playoffs. I'm wary of stuff like that now in my old age of like, hey, I've kind of, I've kind of heard that one before and it's a lot to ask.

• 40:36Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  But yeah, Merrill's there. They got Keon Ellis, Dennis Schroder. Dennis Schroder's a weird, a weird fit in some of their lineups, but you, you might be right. I think they've got a lot to learn just about how to play together and this Mobley minutes restriction is, is kind of like, we just don't see him and Allen play much together. And I want to see a little bit more of them refamiliarizing with that and with Harden. But look, I mean, they've got all the tools. They, they were a 60-win team last year that ran into the Pacers buzzsaw and had a bunch of injuries and why shouldn't they be the scariest team?

• 41:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Now, last 25 games are on a 60-win pace again. They turned Hunter, who is just terrible.

• 41:16Speaker 04

  And out for the season. The whole Kings out for the season.

• 41:19Bill Simmons?

  And then Garland, who wasn't playing, turned them into Harden, who plays all the time. And Schroder, who we've seen in playoff series and, you know, he's been on almost every team in the league at this point, but he's better than somebody who doesn't play at all. The Harden thing has reached a point, because I'm scared of Cleveland, where I just have to keep reminding myself that James Harden's on that team and there will be a playoff series where maybe he can do James Harden things, but honeymoon Harden's a pretty potent thing.

• 41:48Speaker 04

  He's had some of his greatest playoff moments, and there have been some against your team. That Philly Celtics series from a couple of seasons ago, with which Celtics won in seven, was, was, he had two, game one and four, I think, two, two of his finest playoff moments.

• 42:03Bill Simmons?

  Can I say, I'm gonna shock you and just be super positive about James Harden?

• 42:07Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:10Bill Simmons?

  I mean, he's one of the 40, I forget where he is in my pyramid. I think I have him in the 40, in the 30s, right? So he's one of the best 40 players of all time. He's also somebody that has been in situations where everything had to revolve around him, which was both the strength and the flaws of all those Houston teams, where everything ran through them for better or worse.

• 42:31Bill Simmons?

  It's really interesting when he can just jump into different basketball situations and, and he's like a basketball chameleon. And he just becomes like a different version of himself overnight. He has this very, and we saw it in Brooklyn too, on your greatest theoretical team ever, where there's this unselfish facilitator. I don't really need the ball and I'm just fun to play with James Harden. That's like this alter ego he has. It's almost like, it, the name should be like Jimmy. It's like, oh, it's Jimmy Harden.

• 43:00Speaker 04

  Jimmy honeymoon Harden. That's how, that's how he starts on all these. I'm just gonna be, I'm just here to help out, just here to help out.

• 43:07Bill Simmons?

  I, I really like that version of James Harden. It's easily my favorite version. The, I'm just here to make everyone else better and fit in is like really fun to watch. And I just kind of wish he played like that.

• 43:20Speaker 04

  Because of his size and his vision, I think he, he actually has the ability to make life easier for Donovan Mitchell than Darius Garland did. I think Mitchell is going to get easier sort of closeouts and, and gaps to attack and easier catching through threes than Garland could give him. And Harden is just a different kind of pitch than the Cavs have had, just like, like a bulkier, slow down, physical, he's just like, Garland was part of like, more part of the system that Kenny Atkinson and Jordan and all them built of like all this cuts and ball movement and motion and do this because he was small and more of a shooter. Harden is just, as he would put it, he is the system and he can be a different sort of system for them, but just like a change up when Mitchell is

• 44:04Speaker 04

  on the bench. And I like that. I think this, look, these four teams are all really good. And they also all have, other than Detroit, I think moments where you're like, can I, can I really trust this team? Like certainly the Knicks have moments like that.

• 44:18Bill Simmons?

  I think Detroit playing them over and over again for two weeks would eventually be a detriment for them. Cause so much relies on Kate. I think that's going to be their fatal flaw ultimately. I just don't see a second guy I really trust. It's too hard to just have one, and this has been what's killed Harden over the years. It's what, you know, Luca's had more playoff success recently than Harden probably has, but same thing where it's just see the same thing over and over and over again. I think teams get used to it in a different way, but we'll see. A team that I didn't think I had to worry about was Denver. Who is, what do you think their record is in the last 32 games?

• 44:57Speaker 04

  Well, I know they're three and six in their last nine games and they were, what, nine and six without Jokic. So I'll go 16 and 16.

• 45:04Bill Simmons?

  That's their answer.

• 45:05Speaker 04

  Hey, look at that.

• 45:07Bill Simmons?

  They're a 500 team for 32 games. Now, there are reasons for that. Jokic missed a bunch of games. Aaron Gordon's out. They were getting this incredible out of nowhere Peyton Watson season, then he got hurt. They don't have Gordon and Watson. There's some, they got screwed today by this little known thing that the gamblers love when it's three games in four nights and the fourth game is a day game. It's like,

• 45:28Speaker 04

  Cleveland as well.

• 45:29Bill Simmons?

  Cleveland as well. It's like death. It's, it's a really bad thing for the team that's playing the three and four. Their last six losses, they lost to Detroit twice by two and three. I watched both of those games. They could have won both of them. They didn't. OKC beat them by 10. They lost to Cleveland by two, could have won that. Lost to the Clips by one. I still don't know how they didn't win that. And today they were handling winning Golden State, beating Golden State. Jokic looked like he was on his way to a 35 20 20. And then all of a sudden, Golden State had that weird thing where just guys started getting hot. Al Horford left his body for about 20 minutes. Curry was on the bench doing like crazy Curry Ls. And all of a sudden, Golden State was up eight and Denver lost again.

• 46:14Bill Simmons?

  Their last win against a good team. January 7th, Boston, in Boston. And that was without Jokic. They do not have a lot of good wins here. And I'm still not going to panic because they don't have Aaron Gordon and I'm not going to freak out about this. Where are you?

• 46:31Speaker 04

  Well, that's where the panic is, is that are they going to get him back? Because even with Watson back and Cam Johnson is now back and Watson's not. They don't have enough force, I don't think. And that's like, there's no, right now with Watson and Gordon out, there's almost no limit to how small you can play against the Nuggets. Other than Jokic, who obviously needs size for. And there's, because there's just nobody to punish your smaller guards on the block, on the glass, the way Aaron Gordon would seal for post ups against smaller guys that like swung quarters of important playoff series for them. And I think they just need that level of forcefulness that they don't really have another vehicle for.

• 47:14Speaker 04

  And their starting five are in their core group other than Valanciunas and Jokic. And their defense just hasn't been good all year. They're 22nd in defense today. They were bad defensively against the Clippers. They were bad defensively, like they've just had too many miscommunications. They, now David Adelman, after the game, I was reading, you know, Draymond Green was ruled out shortly before the game. And the Nuggets tried to be like, well, one of the reasons we acted like Al Horford had never shot a pick and pop three before. Like we had no idea what to do. Oh my God, this guy's shooting threes and their whole defense collapses. Guys are running into each other, rotating their own place. Is they were prepared for Draymond Green to start and not Al Horford. But like, like you shouldn't, a pick and pop three from a 39 year old center should not send your entire defense into a frenzy of mistakes.

• 47:59Speaker 04

  And it just happened over and over and over again. It's like, and then they got back cut left and right. They missed Reese Strather as a, I, as you know, I own property on Strather Straits. I have for a long time, still kind of a train wreck defensively, staying in scheme. Like it just wasn't, their defense has not had the. The polish, like, early in the season, they were playing on a string, they were playing together, they were toggling between zone and man, and they looked every bit like a team that was ready for a championship season. And somewhere along the way, they've kind of become a little incoherent, and it could just be, I actually put this to you as an even more experienced NBA watcher than I am. Is this just to wake us up in the playoffs kind of thing? Or it like, we've been here so many times?

• 48:42Bill Simmons?

  I don't think it is.

• 48:43Speaker 04

  The other thing is, like, I know he got injured and missed a lot of time and got hot after a slow start. I just don't feel Cam Johnson's presence enough in these games. I just like, he's, he's reaching like, your, your famous Tobias Harris, like, oh, he was out there? Status? Like, and Tobias has been out, Tobias has been out there, Tobias has been doing his thing. So forgive me Tobias Harris, but these games go by and I'm like, oh, Cam Johnson played, that's right. He was two of seven in the box score, and I forgot that he played.

• 49:10Bill Simmons?

  I would, this is gonna be the number one thing I said, I, after, as my comeback. I don't, Cam Johnson, I saw it in person on Thursday. I sat, I went, I had good seats, I was courtside, right next to the Nuggets bench for Thursday's game. And Cam Johnson, like, every once in a while, I was like, oh, there's Cam Johnson. Like, I, like, and I'm at the game, and I just forgot he was out there for long stretches. His stats are okay. Like, he's shooting 43% from three.

• 49:35Speaker 04

  Just doesn't feel like it.

• 49:37Bill Simmons?

  When I watch it, I don't feel like Porter, who drove everybody crazy, but you always kind of felt Porter in the game, for better and worse. And Cam Johnson had like, two big threes near the end there, where he missed both of them. I didn't think either of them were going in. I, I just thought he was gonna be this, like, plug and play, awesome, swing three-point shooter for them, and, and he hasn't been. That's one issue. Crunch time stats are, are pretty rough for them, surprisingly, when you have Jokic. They're bottom five defensive rating for 30 games now. Bottom five. Like, you have teams that are tanking, and they're bottom five. So.

• 50:15Bill Simmons?

  It's a tough one because they have the championship pedigree and they have one of the, they have the best player in the world, I think. Rich Paul thinks it's Anthony Edwards. We can argue about that later.

• 50:25Speaker 04

  I did see that. I want to, and, and I was waiting for Max to push back and say Jokic's name, and Max did. And I, I wanted the discussion to go a little further than that.

• 50:34Bill Simmons?

  I respected that. The best thing about a take like that is you have to at least see the take. So he explained it. He's like, I think the best player in the league should play both sides. Two-way guys. That's what I value. And you could make the case with Edwards, like conference finals, two straight years. He's getting better. His stats are up there with pretty much everybody in the league and he plays defense and he's better when it matters.

• 51:02Bill Simmons?

  But Jokic is the best player in the league, in my opinion.

• 51:04Speaker 04

  Every time I'm ready to trust the Timberwolves, and I do trust them.

• 51:07Bill Simmons?

  They do what they did tonight.

• 51:08Speaker 04

  They, they lost by 27 to the Sixers tonight. No, Gobert. Gobert was suspended. I forgot about that.

• 51:15Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, with Denver, so as you said, I'm an experienced watcher, which is a nice way of saying I'm old.

• 51:23Bill Simmons?

  Door A is, god damn it, why did I not realize that when Gordon came back, this team was going to be a championship team? I'm so stupid. Door B is, they were telling us all season what they were and we were ignoring the science over and over and over again? And why did we think Gordon was coming back to the playoffs? And I don't really know the answer, but there are these two doors that are really far away from each other. And the big winner to me is OKC.

• 51:50Bill Simmons?

  If they can figure out a way to basically avoid Denver completely, right? Which it seems like there's a chance there's a Denver-Minnesota 3-6, which seemed inconceivable even. Or Denver-Minnesota 4-5. There's some sort of matchup where Denver or Minnesota could take each other out in round one. And I bet OKC is rooting for that would be my guess.

• 52:13Speaker 04

  And we need to get some clarity on this AJ Mitchell thing, by the way, I know he's not perceived as a big part of what Oklahoma City does, and they just got Jared McCain to kind of be the spark plug scorer creator. AJ Mitchell is an awesome player and has not played now for a long time, and I don't really get, like, the timetable's gotten a little murky. But yeah, I mean, they and the Spurs.

• 52:32Bill Simmons?

  It's an injury, right?

• 52:34Speaker 04

  It's an injury, yeah. And the Spurs have won, what, eight games in a row? And how that was-

• 52:39Bill Simmons?

  No, the Spurs have won 11 games in a row, haven't they?

• 52:41Speaker 04

  They're up to 11. I don't know, those standings on ESPN say eight, but anyway.

• 52:45Speaker 04

  And yeah, but how those seedings, three to six, shake out is going to be really interesting. And that we should at least mention the other big thing that happened in regards to that this weekend was Dillon Brooks broke his hand, and the Suns now have a much harder time sort of trying to punch into that group, which I think, I think they were going to be capable of, of giving it a real run, and maybe they still are, but that's a huge loss given on top of Booker's loss, too.

• 53:09Bill Simmons?

  So I went on a big walk yesterday with my wife and my son. We came back and watched the fourth quarter of Phoenix. Who are they playing?

• 53:18Speaker 04

  Orlando.

• 53:19Bill Simmons?

  Phoenix Orlando.

• 53:22Bill Simmons?

  I ended up doing a tweet about it because it was the weirdest game I've watched all season. It was an all time rock fight. Jalen Green, at one point, was four for 24 and was so bad, I like, I almost couldn't believe it. I couldn't, it was to the point where it's like, they gotta take him out. Like, this is like watching a pitcher who can't throw strikes. He wasn't just missing jump shots. He was like, front rimming, they were going right, they were going left. He was just a complete mess. And then in the end of the second OT, driving crazy basket makes it, and then hits a buzzer beater falling out of bounds and finishes six for 26. And it was one of those games where Phoenix is just, because they know they're not going to book him for a couple of weeks. They're just like, we gotta let Jalen Green work this rust off because we have no other chance

• 54:07Bill Simmons?

  to create a shot. Orlando's playing crazy defense, so Phoenix is getting like, no good shots. And then we'll go to the other end, and it was just- That Palo ball that is just awful to watch. Everybody's standing around and Orlando blows another one. And that's the one team. I hate advocating for coaching change, but that's the one team where it seems like the coach has taken the team as far as he can take them would be my expert analysis.

• 54:34Speaker 04

  Well, also no Suggs in that game, but like no Suggs is semi regular condition for the Orlando Magic and no Franz Wagner.

• 54:40Bill Simmons?

  He's a 50 game a year player at this point. Yeah, and Franz is hurt for we don't know how long.

• 54:44Speaker 04

  But it does, I mean, we've gone over this a bunch, but it does feel like this is the year from hell for the Magic when they had year from heaven expectations. And I, I just think a couple of seismic things could happen if they, if they don't get out of the play in, that's a disaster. If they get, do get out of the play in and they just get rolled 4-1 or 4-0 in the first round and it's just not competitive. I think I, all bets are off.

• 55:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, Verno texted this to us because Verno Memphis has the pick. I had a thought of this, but they have like, it's a choice. It's the second best pick between Washington Orlando and Phoenix, I think.

• 55:20Speaker 04

  You know what it is? It's, it's complicated enough where I'm like, just tell me after the season, which pick they get.

• 55:25Bill Simmons?

  Well, whatever, whatever the complications are, you thought it was going to be Phoenix's pick.

• 55:33Bill Simmons?

  It might be Orlando's pick, although now Phoenix loses Dillon Brooks and Devin Booker. So who knows? Yeah. So then you have the West where you have six playoff teams and Phoenix was supposed to be the seventh, but could go in a little free fall here. Golden State, I have no idea what to make of them. And then the Clippers, who I was there for the, for the Mather Renaissance.

• 55:54Speaker 04

  Oh.

• 55:55Bill Simmons?

  Mather Renaissance.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Not sure that's going to catch on, but you, you, you do you. You're a big Matherin fan.

• 56:01Bill Simmons?

  Just, I am. And there was just a bunch of Clipper fans there who were not familiar with his work, kind of looking at each other going, what's going on right now? As he was just taking guys one on one.

• 56:12Bill Simmons?

  I kind of like their team when Garland comes back. We did a bet, me, House and Sal and Hench did Clippers to make the playoffs, Golden State not to make it. It was like almost 2 to 1. And we did that on Friday because it was like this, yeah, you don't have Zubots, you can patch together some center minutes, but you're gonna have Garland back hopefully in two weeks. You have Matheran kind of doing this weird Harden imitation. You have Kawhi playing as well as anyone in the league. You have a good coaching staff. You have a team that's been winning and they don't have their pick. So why not? Like it's not a team I'd be crazy about seeing in the 2-7 matchup. I'll just say that.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, they're six, they're, they're on the verge of going from 6 and 21 to 500 with, by game 60, which is a very hard thing to do. And they're just objectively a pretty solid team. And, you know, the drama, I mean, unfortunately, there's, it would be very hard for them to get out of the play-in. So the drama is can they catch the Warriors for eighth and get into the upper half of the play-in bracket. But yeah, I mean, look, Garland, Garland is, you know, I gotta see it. Like I see it consistently before I'm like, we just pencil him into the Chris Dunn starting spot and everything's gonna be great.

• 57:25Bill Simmons?

  You know what Garland is? An actual point guard, which they do not have on the roster.

• 57:28Speaker 04

  No.

• 57:29Bill Simmons?

  And that was really noticeable on, on Thursday. They're just running offense through Matheran and Kawhi. They didn't have anybody else.

• 57:34Speaker 04

  It would be great. They have some defensive questions to answer that right now they just don't play any weak defenders pretty much. I mean, they just play like Dunn and Derek Jones Jr. Who's been awesome, but underrated part of their sort of good play lately is that he's back. So, but yeah, that he'd be a great addition to their team. He'd make them one guy deeper and they'd be a pretty, pretty dangerous team.

• 57:55Bill Simmons?

  You know what surprised me about Thursday night? Denver wanted the game and was really into it. And I don't think Jokic loves the Clippers. I don't know what the genesis of it is, but every time I've, I try to go every time Jokic plays the Clippers, every time he really wants the game and he's really into it. And I don't know, didn't, did they lose to them in the bubble? Is that what it was?

• 58:15Speaker 04

  No, it was the Clippers went up 3-1 and collapsed in dramatic fashion.

• 58:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so I don't know what the genesis is, but Denver was playing super hard, was really into it and wanted it. And the Clippers won anyway. So I don't know, it seems like they're five behind Phoenix right now for the seven spot.

• 58:35Speaker 04

  But that's a game, that's a matchup where you feel the absence of Aaron Gordon, because they just don't have anyone to guard Kawhi. He's too big and strong. And you could say Watson, put Watson on him when he's healthy. That Watson is a guy who guards guards really well. He guards fast guys really well. Like he'd give Kawhi some issues because he's Peyton Watson, but that there are just matchups where if you fall into the wrong place, you really feel Aaron Gordon's absence.

• 59:01Bill Simmons?

  So Raheem on the Ringer Gambling Show on Friday had this great stat about, have you heard of the 40-20 rule?

• 59:11Speaker 04

  Is that, is that, oh, the 40 wins before 20 losses, right?

• 59:18Bill Simmons?

  And every champion since, I forget what year, there's only been four times where somebody didn't hit the 40-20. And one of them was the post-COVID season. But it was like, I've read the 95 Rockets, I think the 04 Pistons, maybe the 06 Heat. But usually 40-20, you have to get to 40 wins for 20 losses, and that's who wins the title. And it's like over 90%, something like that. And this year, there's only three teams that are 40-20 teams, unless the Celtics can somehow-

• 59:48Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, don't shortchange those scrappy guys in green. Come on.

• 59:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the Celtics would be the fourth. They would have to win in Phoenix Tuesday night, conceivable now. They'd have to upset Denver on Wednesday and then beat Brooklyn at home. So they could be the fourth. But the three teams are obviously OKC and Detroit. And then San Antonio,

• 1:00:11Bill Simmons?

  who's been pretty hot. I know you've talked about them on your pod. Is there any sort of part of you that thinks that they could win four straight playoff rounds? Because I am of the, I am of the mindset that they're too young and they have to have the taste your own blood playoffs before we can seriously talk about them winning a title. But they do fit this thing, and there's only three teams that fit it.

• 1:00:36Speaker 04

  I would generally agree with you that they are young. Wemby's young and untested in the playoffs. Castle, Harper, on and on.

• 1:00:49Speaker 04

  The rookie wall is also a thing. Harper's played a lot of minutes. We'll see how he holds up. They had to demote Harrison Barnes out of the starting five because he kind of hit the veteran wall and maybe he'll, he'll get promoted back into it. So.

• 1:01:00Bill Simmons?

  He hit the old guy wall.

• 1:01:02Speaker 04

  That's what I was trying to be nice. The veteran wall. I don't want to call Harrison Barnes old.

• 1:01:06Bill Simmons?

  I'll call.

• 1:01:07Speaker 04

  And they did nothing at the trade deadline, right? Like we all thought they have this team that's ready to win and they have a bunch of pieces. Can they just get one more good player? They didn't.

• 1:01:18Speaker 04

  All that said, I do think they could win three straight playoff rounds in the West just because like all of these other teams are sort of, you know, the Wolves are trying to figure themselves out to some degree. The Rockets, we talked about Denver, just, we just did a whole thing on Denver. And they have a thing against the Thunder and I don't, I wouldn't dismiss it as just small sample size theater. I know the last, the last couple of games there were guys out, but those were high stakes, high, but like by regular season standards, like the teams cared about those games and the Spurs won them and they won a couple of them handily and they had the Thunder a little flustered and I, I don't necessarily think that means they would beat the Thunder in a playoff series. I would pick Oklahoma City. But I don't think it's inconceivable that the Spurs could make the finals. They just, they also have one of the five best players in the NBA, period.

• 1:02:04Bill Simmons?

  And his, that goes back to the MVP discussion. So if they went on a real run here down the stretch, they get the one seed. Wemby goes up a level as all of this is happening and maybe we have an 86 Rockets type of situation. Four rounds sounds excessive to me when you think none of those guys really have any of them been in a big playoff game.

• 1:02:27Speaker 04

  Well, and it's.

• 1:02:28Bill Simmons?

  Darren Fox played game seven.

• 1:02:30Speaker 04

  Harrison Barnes.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  Harrison Barnes is the 10th guy on their team. Darren Fox played a game seven against Steph in round one.

• 1:02:36Speaker 04

  Lou Cornet is an NBA freaking champion.

• 1:02:39Bill Simmons?

  Lou Cornet, Kelly Olynyk had game seven against Washington.

• 1:02:44Bill Simmons?

  All right, I have a couple of quick things for you and then we're gonna talk about Kawhi.

• 1:02:51Speaker 04

  No, could I just say one more thing about the Spurs? Cause I don't think it's just the young guys thing you're talking about. I think you it we have you almost forget it as you get distant for when the playoffs fade away and you're in January and February in the regular season and it's been a while since you felt the playoffs and all that for it's just really physically taxing. It's not just like the pressure and the noise and like the big stage. It's just like guys are going down like flies. It's a slog. It's every other day after the first round. I mean, it's really, really hard to win for a playoff series. You have to and I think I don't I know you meant that when you said they haven't been tested and felt blood and all that stuff, but that's part of it is like feeling what it's like

• 1:03:34Speaker 04

  of this is game 17 for us in the playoffs. Like that hurts.

• 1:03:40Bill Simmons?

  I got a couple of mailbag questions actually about are we sure the West is still better than the East?

• 1:03:46Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:03:48Bill Simmons?

  And and a couple of people all made the same point like, yeah, OKC is the best team in the league. But if you go top, top four versus top four, are we sure the West top four is better than the East top four? It just got my brain thinking a little bit.

• 1:04:06Bill Simmons?

  If you had to rank the teams right now, we'd put OKC first. Who would you put second? You get either conference, the top eight teams.

• 1:04:14Bill Simmons?

  So who's your second best team right now?

• 1:04:16Speaker 04

  I'm still gonna go Denver.

• 1:04:20Bill Simmons?

  I think I would go Detroit just because I don't know what I'm getting from Gordon yet.

• 1:04:26Bill Simmons?

  But I think it's it's would you go Detroit third?

• 1:04:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, yes.

• 1:04:30Bill Simmons?

  Okay, so it's Denver, Detroit, two, three. So who's four? Would you put San Antonio there?

• 1:04:35Speaker 04

  I put San Antonio there.

• 1:04:38Bill Simmons?

  And then would you put the next three East teams followed by whoever's number four in the West? Which would be Minnesota or the Lakers, whoever?

• 1:04:47Speaker 04

  I would probably have Minnesota over at least one, if not two, or three of the East teams.

• 1:04:55Bill Simmons?

  Well, we just saw that the West is still better. I have three, I want to do this new little mini segment with you called On The Record. I just want to go on the record.

• 1:05:03Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:05:04Bill Simmons?

  Just want to put my thing down. I don't think LeBron goes to Cleveland next year.

• 1:05:09Speaker 04

  So this is out of left field? I like that you're just going on the record with it. Where do you, okay, so elaborate.

• 1:05:15Bill Simmons?

  I don't see it. And here's why I don't see it, because I think Cleveland's a team that could win the title this year or next year. I think they have a player that is one of the best six or seven, eight, nine, whatever you want to say, guys in the league, who's never made the finals. And I think they're close, and I think when, and they're going to re-sign Harden. And I think they're close, and I think just being like, oh, by the way, we're going to add the LeBron farewell tour to this. It just doesn't pass the smell test to me, and I might be wrong, but I wanted to go on the record. I think it's going to be Golden State. That would be my bet. If I, if you gave me the bet, Cleveland will be the favorite, the Knicks will probably be the second favorite, Lakers will probably be in the top three, and then there'll be a whole bunch of other teams.

• 1:06:00Bill Simmons?

  Golden State makes the most sense to me because they actually need him. And the narrative of I'm going to finish my career with Steph Curry, the other great player of my generation, we won Olympic gold medals together. The team kind of needs me, so it's a farewell tour combined with the team needs me. I'm going to play with Draymond, Steve Kerr, who's coached me, and this is where I'm going to end it. Makes more sense to me than I'm just going to be awkwardly shoehorned into this team that had a chance to win a title, who has a best, best guy in the league candidates, candidacy, at least from the guard position, just doesn't add up to me.

• 1:06:35Speaker 04

  It's it's a big bomb to drop into your team. It's just not simple of like, oh, he's coming on the minimum or the mid level. So it doesn't hurt our cap situation. It's free money. It's like.

• 1:06:45Bill Simmons?

  And he's bringing a 40 person camera crew. It just is. It's a it's. An aggressive move if you think you could win the title.

• 1:06:52Speaker 04

  He's not just going to stand in the corner and play 25 minutes. He's going to have the ball a lot and play 35 minutes and have to be engaged on defense.

• 1:06:59Bill Simmons?

  You saw it in the All Star game. When he's on the court, he's going to be a principal player in the game. That's just how it's going to play out. He's one of the two best players of all time.

• 1:07:08Speaker 04

  So I've talked about the Warriors one a bit. I think you're right to flag it as possible. The Knicks, I probably haven't put enough thought into. Obviously, he's talked about Madison Square Garden and what that place means to him.

• 1:07:19Bill Simmons?

  Why would Jalen Brunson sign up for that?

• 1:07:22Speaker 04

  Well, I don't know why he, I mean, it's LeBron, I guess, but I just don't know. I'm trying. I haven't gone through the machinations it would take for it to happen. If it's not just him coming on the minimum and the apron issues. And what do they do with Kat? And is Giannis still in play, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera?

• 1:07:39Bill Simmons?

  I think he either stays in LA or he goes to Golden State. Those would be my best. All right, next one.

• 1:07:45Bill Simmons?

  It's kind of tied to LeBron. If they don't get LeBron, I don't, I think this is it for Steve Kerr. I have no inside info. This would be the right kind of area for him to be like, you know what? I'm going to take a year. I'll do some media. I'll try to figure out if I want to keep coaching.

• 1:08:03Bill Simmons?

  Calling it quits.

• 1:08:06Speaker 04

  Do you want me to say something?

• 1:08:08Bill Simmons?

  You don't have to say anything.

• 1:08:09Speaker 04

  I mean, look, he's been coaching without a contract beyond this season, the entire year. That's always a red flag.

• 1:08:17Speaker 04

  There's always been this notion of, and he has said it publicly, that I'm tied at the hip to Steph. As long as Steph is here, I will be here, period. And we all know Steph is going to be there next year. I, this has been a trying couple of years for the Warriors on lots of different levels.

• 1:08:36Speaker 04

  I would not, it would not shock, it would not surprise me if he were not to coach next year.

• 1:08:41Bill Simmons?

  And there's a little, maybe Kamingo would have done better if we'd have like, there's a little finger pointing stuff that's gone on since he's drafted and some of this stuff. That's a real thing. I just wonder if he's like, you know what? I'm good. I'm going to take a year off.

• 1:08:54Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, we saw.

• 1:08:57Speaker 04

  I mean, we saw Bob Myers just basically like.

• 1:09:00Bill Simmons?

  We saw Bob Myers say, I'm good.

• 1:09:02Speaker 04

  I'm walking away.

• 1:09:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm ready for some time off. Yeah.

• 1:09:06Bill Simmons?

  All right. So those are my strongest two. I want to get on the record with predictions. I have the right to flip these predictions at a later date. I'm just putting these down. My third one is, I'm not sure Darren Peterson is going to go first anymore. Which I would have bet anything on two months ago, but there's just too much weirdness with this Kansas thing with him coming out of games and the cramping and the competitiveness and unless he's actually hurt, which is now a new theory. I think teams value competitiveness too much. It's the number one thing we've learned about the NBA in the last 15 years is you know what? It's a good idea to have competitive guys. And I think this has just gotten too weird with the Kansas thing, and I think there might be better picks. I know you don't care about the draft.

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  No, I, I'll tell you this, I do care about the draft. I don't watch a lot of college basketball. I'll do my YouTubeing as we get closer to the draft. By the way, my YouTubeing, I don't know if you remember this from the Zach Low Show last year. I said, the number one guy I fell head over heels with based on 15 minutes of YouTubeing was Conklin Apple.

• 1:10:06Bill Simmons?

  I was also pitching him to you as you're going to love this Conklin Apple. He's your kind of guy. Moves without the ball and sets picks.

• 1:10:13Speaker 04

  So I, I mean, I, I care to some degree. I don't, I don't watch college basketball because I just watch too much NBA. I don't have time. It's a time management thing, but I will tell you this Knicks Pistons was, what day was that? I don't even know if I lost. I think it was Thursday night.

• 1:10:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:25Speaker 04

  I think the night before was when Peterson had taken himself out of a game. I mean, I still haven't even seen the video of it.

• 1:10:33Speaker 04

  On the, the pregame Knicks Pistons. Big game, Eastern Conference clash. Detroit's been in the news because of the suspensions, the Knicks need to revenge. Every scout, front office person, coach at the game. Number one topic on their mind was what in the hell is going on with Darren Peterson? I had so many Darren Peterson conversations and I just, I remember talking to various people. Being like, what, what? He just took himself out of the game?

• 1:10:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:57Speaker 04

  Cause I hadn't seen it. They're like, yeah, he literally pointed to Bill Self as I'm, I'm out. That's it. And no one, no one knows what to make of it.

• 1:11:06Bill Simmons?

  I don't like it.

• 1:11:08Bill Simmons?

  I don't understand it and it gives me Ben Simmons flashbacks to the LSU thing when he was just like, I'm out and didn't care if they even made the NIT or whatever he did. Now, I hope that he actually has some physical stuff going on that he's afraid to make worse would be my hope. But I don't know, just compare it to like, think of some of the great guys we've had even recently, like would Anthony Edwards be like, yeah, I'm good. I'm gonna take myself out. It just makes me nervous. So I'd want to have a lot more information on it.

• 1:11:39Speaker 04

  I mean, I can tell you this, the scouts in front of people I know, particularly people who are going to be picking towards the top of the draft, like a lot of their job is trying to figure out what's going on. And if there were a physical thing, at some point, one of them would figure it out and would, it would start to get around and everyone is just completely perplexed.

• 1:11:59Bill Simmons?

  It's where the ban set just becomes an easier pick. Because ultimately, you just made the key point. You're talking about guys who are going to get fired if they get this pick wrong. And that's when you just gravitates her, you know, this guy, he's 6'8", perfect body. He's, worst case scenario is going to be a better Andrew Wiggins. This is a safer bet. I'm just going to take this guy. All right, we're gonna take a break for the podcast. Keep going on here on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by PNC Bank. In today's sports, everyone is constantly trying to outdo each other. Trick formations, infield shifts, constant rotation changes, yet it's proven time and time again, that strong fundamentals are the thing that will lead you to victory. Banking, no different. While everyone else tries to outdo each other, PNC Bank just keeps going right down the

• 1:12:44Bill Simmons?

  middle with steady, calculated money moves and the financial wins just keep coming. PNC Bank, brilliantly boring since 1865, brilliantly boring since 1865 is a registered mark of the PNC Financial Services Group, Incorporated. PNC Bank, National Association, Member, FTIC. This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday.

• 1:13:31Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi Leonard.

• 1:13:33Speaker 04

  I can't wait for this.

• 1:13:34Bill Simmons?

  I wanted to do a deep dive. We're gonna try to keep this to 30 minutes.

• 1:13:39Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi Leonard, we're gonna do deep dives here every once in a while in the Sunday night pods where we pick a player and we just dive in. And Kawhi Leonard, I'll start here. I think the weirdest career of anyone in the top 40 for me. And he is top 40. I have him, I have him as a level four. I have the five levels that I created in my book, The Pyramid. Level four is the one right below the Pantheon. And he is right there as one of the best 30 guys of all time for me. I think I have number 29. He averaged 12 points a game for the first four years of his career. He was a finals MVP and a Defensive Player of the Year before he ever made an All-Star team.

• 1:14:19Bill Simmons?

  He's only played 766 regular season games in 15 years, which averages out to about 50.5 a game or 51 a game or something like that. He's been the finals MVP on two different teams. And if you only watch the last two months of the season, you would think he was one of the best five players we have. I have no idea if he's gonna be in round two of the playoffs ever again in his career, much less the finals. We know very little about him. He's been the most enigmatic, quiet, strangest player to figure out that we've had. He quit on the Spurs. I guess quits the wrong word, just refused to play for them anymore.

• 1:15:01Bill Simmons?

  Didn't get along with an infrastructure that is pretty beloved, where guys all love each other. And he was just like, I'm out. I don't trust you guys. I've had it. And there's a lot more else to discuss, but at his best, at his best,

• 1:15:17Bill Simmons?

  was right there in the LeBron Durant vicinity. And is one of the 30 best players of all time and has two rings. So I'll start there.

• 1:15:25Speaker 04

  I mean, he's been so good this year and relatively available enough to qualify for all of these awards we've been talking about. Like, I think he belongs in the first team All-NBA conversation for those last few spots. I don't think he'll play enough to get there, but he's absolutely been that good. It's partly because Jokic has missed, let's say, half of the last 30 games or half the games since Kawhi came back around Thanksgiving. He's either been the best or second best player in the league in that time span, given all the games that other guys have missed, but he's been that good. He's been like an MVP level player right now, which I kind of thought, I'm not sure we're going to see that again for 35 of, out of 45 games in any season, and he's been, he's been that good. His career has been so weird that you didn't even

• 1:16:10Speaker 04

  get to the cap circumvention scandal that's currently happening.

• 1:16:13Bill Simmons?

  We have a whole bunch of other shit to go through. He's only been a top three MVP twice. In 16 and 17, he was second and third, and he was fifth and 20. And it's one of those, when you look at the complete resume, it's both not as impressive as I thought it was going to be, but then also more impressive.

• 1:16:32Speaker 04

  And in an era where so many of the best players with any kind of longevity are going to crack 20,000 points, which used to be hallowed ground, but is less so because of the three-point shot, and he's still like chilling around 15,900, 770 games played.

• 1:16:48Bill Simmons?

  He might not get to 20,000 points.

• 1:16:51Speaker 04

  And it's so weird that I would actually ask you, like, who's, who else is in the conversation for weirdest career in your top 40 or 50 or whatever it was? Is there, is there anyone even in the vicinity?

• 1:17:02Bill Simmons?

  See, now I'm gonna, now I'm gonna have to dive right into the pyramid.

• 1:17:07Bill Simmons?

  Secret Doc. So I had him 31, my bad. Top of Level 4, Scottie Pippen 32, Kawhi 31, Dwyane Wade 30. Have them all in a row. I think Dwyane Wade is a little more reliable. If you're going weirdo careers, Rick Barry's up there.

• 1:17:23Speaker 04

  Rick Barry's a good one.

• 1:17:24Bill Simmons?

  He had that whole goes to the ABA, can't play for a year, blew out his knee, lost another year. And Robinson going all four years in college.

• 1:17:37Bill Simmons?

  Then having to serve for two years and then coming into the league was pretty weird. Bill Walton's thing is super weird.

• 1:17:45Speaker 04

  That's just, I guess, you know, that's injury. That's Kawhi.

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just, it's injury related. And then probably Dr. J, just because the first part of that was ABA. I think those would be the weirder ones.

• 1:17:55Speaker 04

  Walton's a good call because Walton legit had a case of best player alive at his peak.

• 1:18:01Bill Simmons?

  Which Kawhi kinda got there in 2019, right? I, I think there was a real case for him after the 2019 playoffs, especially when LeBron went to the Lakers. That season wasn't good and we kinda, we didn't know at that point, but it seemed like, well, LeBron's now going to move into a different phase of his career. We didn't know it was going to keep going the way it did. But I think we left 2019 thinking Kawhi was the best player in the league.

• 1:18:27Speaker 04

  It's the hill that I will die on. I think he should have been the MVP in 2017 when Russell Westbrook won. And you voted for Harden. I voted for Kawhi. I got laughed at for voting for Kawhi publicly. I was one of eight people who voted for him. I thought he was the best player in the league and should have won the MVP.

• 1:18:43Bill Simmons?

  All NBA three times. His three-year peak from 2019 to 21 offensively, he was basically a 26, 7 and 4. For his career, 50% field goal, 39% three, 86% free throw, 23.5 PER. And then playoffs, he's better, 21, 8 and 3. Almost a 50, 40, 90 guy, 24.2 PER, uh, which is 11th. His playoff run from 19 to 21 is the best great player case for him, which includes the title. 48 games, 2019, 2020, 2021.

• 1:19:22Bill Simmons?

  30 points a game, nine rebounds a game, five assists a game, 51% shooting, 88% from the line, 37% from the three.

• 1:19:30Speaker 04

  And a shot that would be the shot if the shot weren't already taken by Michael Jordan.

• 1:19:35Bill Simmons?

  Right. It's as good as any stretch, any three-year stretch LeBron had, any three-year stretch Durant had, just statistically. And then you have that game seven he played against Philly in 2019, which I know you loved.

• 1:19:50Bill Simmons?

  Nobody on Toronto shows up except for Ibaka. The whole team is in a freezer. VanVliet's 0 for 5. We're like, is this guy ever going to be playable again in the playoffs? Kawhi takes 39 shots, makes 16. Everyone else on the team other than Ibaka is 8 for 40. And he hits probably the most famous non-final shot ever. Right?

• 1:20:15Speaker 04

  Oof. Is it more famous than the shot? Over Craig Elo?

• 1:20:22Bill Simmons?

  No, no, Craig Elo's that that's kind of the beginning of the Jordan.

• 1:20:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, well, it's in the running for that one.

• 1:20:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, a couple of things we got to talk about. First of all, his first four years of the career is 12 points a game. And his next four years was 24. How many players doubled their point total in the second four years? His Clippers career, which is 309 games, he's basically 25, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 18 field goals a game. He averaged 9.5 field goal attempts a game first four years of his career. We had to talk about the defense.

• 1:20:56Speaker 04

  As a two-time Defensive Player of the Year for a non-center is extraordinary.

• 1:21:01Bill Simmons?

  So we've talked about this a lot and this dates back to our Grantland days when Kawhi had emerged. I remember I wrote one of my last pieces for Grantland was about Kawhi as a shark to puss. Was there was a shark to puss movie? We did a graphic with Kawhi's face with an octopus. For me, it's him and Kawhi as the best perimeter defenders I've ever seen.

• 1:21:23Speaker 04

  Wait, no, him and Pippen? Did you mean him and?

• 1:21:25Bill Simmons?

  I'm sorry, him and him and Pippen. It's him and Pippen as as levitating above ever and us I've ever seen. I might actually throw MJ in there as as number three.

• 1:21:37Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if Amen Thompson can get there.

• 1:21:41Bill Simmons?

  He certainly, when you think like where his age are and what he's done already, I think it's conceivable. Is there anybody else as a perimeter defender that you've seen that can match Pippen and Kawhi?

• 1:21:52Speaker 04

  Gary Payton didn't have enough size.

• 1:21:54Bill Simmons?

  No, there were certain guys he couldn't, like he couldn't have guarded Jokic. Pippen and Kawhi could have guarded Jokic or tried.

• 1:22:01Speaker 04

  No, not those two guys. I mean, those, those two stand alone. And I, I, I think, I would like to go back to watch more Scott. I mean, Scotty's one of my, one of my, just like I got into fights and verbal fights in college over Scottie Pippen. I was the guy that defended Scottie Pippen. I love Scottie Pippen as a player. So I want to go back and watch a little film. Just defense only, I feel like Kawhi was scarier, like Pete, Pete Kawhi was maybe a little scarier than Scottie. Just by this much.

• 1:22:29Bill Simmons?

  Well, he had that one thing.

• 1:22:31Speaker 04

  Maybe like a little physically, like just, is this guy a tank? Like, I don't know, like immovable.

• 1:22:37Bill Simmons?

  He had that thing that the only other guy I've seen do it is Pippen. And you used to joke about it with the, uh, when he would just decide to take the ball.

• 1:22:45Speaker 04

  Yeah. It's like a.

• 1:22:47Bill Simmons?

  Somebody would be dribbling the ball up and Kawhi would be like, I'm going to take that. And he would just go get the ball and steal it and, um, and that would be it.

• 1:22:55Speaker 04

  You could see him decide like, yeah, I'm just going to take the ball from you. Like it's not, it's not going to be like a knockaway where then we both go chase it and I get it. I'm just going to reach out my hand, grab the ball from you and start going the other way. Thank you for participating in this exercise.

• 1:23:12Bill Simmons?

  He got the 2014 finals MVP. I think as the years pass, it's like, and he shut down LeBron in the 14 finals. He actually didn't shut him down. Like LeBron's stats were pretty similar to what they always were. But he did shut him down in key moments of games where they would be up by 20 and maybe LeBron would get some stats near the end. But there were, it was really the only time I remember, cause Indiana would, would have their reputation of, oh, Paul George gives LeBron everything he can handle. It's like, not like this, not like Kawhi, who just seemed completely unafraid of him and went at him. And this was LeBron at the peak of his powers.

• 1:23:48Speaker 04

  And that, and that's the physicality thing. Too is like the rare guy who just is a physical specimen could go toe to toe with LeBron.

• 1:23:56Bill Simmons?

  And Durant was the other guy from that era. And there was also Blake Griffin from that era. There are all these things to him go. So you have that piece. His 2014 finals, he was 11 for 19 from three, 61% 18 points a game. So he ends up, that was one of those finals MVP by default. We didn't really know who to vote for. I, you could make a case, maybe just vote Duncan because he was the spiritual guy of the team. All right. Biggest what ifs before we get to the biggest what if.

• 1:24:24Bill Simmons?

  2017, game one, Golden State. Kawhi's been awesome. You voted for him for MVP. 26 points in 23 minutes, steps on Zaza's foot and the rest is history.

• 1:24:35Speaker 04

  That entire playoffs, Kawhi was insane. The entire playoffs.

• 1:24:40Bill Simmons?

  Insane enough that I think Golden State was the best team of the century.

• 1:24:46Bill Simmons?

  It was conceivable that he could take them on by himself and maybe give them a run. That's how well he was playing.

• 1:24:51Speaker 04

  Durant year one.

• 1:24:52Bill Simmons?

  Durant year one. That's the best team I've seen all century.

• 1:24:55Speaker 04

  16 and one in the playoffs.

• 1:24:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that team is unstoppable.

• 1:25:00Speaker 04

  I, yeah, I think he's so good that they could, that could have been a four, two Warrior series. I don't think he, he beats them.

• 1:25:07Bill Simmons?

  He would have landed some punches.

• 1:25:09Speaker 04

  Like it, let's just posit that they steal game one on the road and then we have two days of like, oh, are the Warriors in trouble? Spurs are ready for this. Then the Warriors win game two, probably win game three and like, but they get another game in there somewhere.

• 1:25:22Bill Simmons?

  Another what if 2020, the bubble. So we head into COVID. There's three teams that we think can win the title, the Clippers and the Lakers, then the Bucks who hadn't really proven that they, they'd made the Eastern finals the year before, lost to Toronto. They were probably the team that was going to come out of the East, we thought. And then the bubble happens and the Lakers get stronger in the bubble and the Clippers completely cave. And they've talked about it since about, um, they just weren't built for the bubble see of that. 2021, the next year, Kawhi is incredible again. 30.7 rebounds, four assists in the first two rounds, gets hurt at the tail end of round two.

• 1:26:03Bill Simmons?

  Ends up like kind of sneaking Phoenix into the finals and I don't know if they were the best team. Do you think they were the best team? I actually thought the Phoenix was better the next year.

• 1:26:13Speaker 04

  And yeah, well, that's when all the wheels came off in the playoffs.

• 1:26:15Bill Simmons?

  And then the wheels came off. Yeah. So you have that.

• 1:26:19Speaker 04

  Phoenix was a really good team, but yeah, I would have liked to have obviously seen the full strength Clippers. They he gets hurt in the Utah series that they end up winning in six and then.

• 1:26:28Bill Simmons?

  At the tail end of that series and then the the Phoenix also got to avoid Anthony Davis. So I'm just stating facts. I know Eddie Johnson's gonna call us water boys tomorrow on Twitter and fight us. And then honestly, the biggest what if other than this aspiration thing was him demanding that Paul George be part of this Clippers situation in 2018. And it's a what if that all my Clipper fans talk about all the time. You know, the trade was Paul George for a guy named Shay Gildes Alexander, Gallinari, who was still competent at that point, four unprotected first, two swaps, and then another pick.

• 1:27:08Bill Simmons?

  And we know what happened with those picks. And the question has always been, why didn't you just go to the Clippers, have all the picks, have the young players, and just take some time to try to figure it out? You just won the title. It's not like he had to win the title right away. Why didn't you have more patience? Why did you demand they have to gut everything? So it's you and Paul George. Obviously, he would do it over again if he could. But it's a pretty good what if. Now, we didn't know SGA was gonna even be an all NBA player. We knew he was good.

• 1:27:37Speaker 04

  We knew he was good. Like, he was clearly good.

• 1:27:39Bill Simmons?

  Didn't know he was gonna be an all NBA player, much less a two time MVP. Knew those picks were gonna hurt. And I gotta say, I defended the move at the time.

• 1:27:48Speaker 04

  I think everybody did. I think everybody still would.

• 1:27:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because it's like, you can't get Kawhi unless you do this. The question is, could you have gotten Kawhi anyway? Where, where, what else was he doing? He didn't want to go to the Lakers. Like, we know that now. He was playing poker with the Lakers. Didn't seem like he wanted to go back to. What were the other options?

• 1:28:08Speaker 04

  It's a great question. I think the Raptors thought they had an honest chance at him, even though they knew he never asked to be there. They knew he wanted to go to Los Angeles. They felt that winning a title, he had a good relationship with Messiah Jiri.

• 1:28:24Bill Simmons?

  Maybe do a one year deal and then figure it out after that?

• 1:28:28Speaker 04

  I think that, yeah, I think they thought they had some kind of chance, but you're right. What were the other? There was no other team that was in it at the time. It was those three teams and it went on and on and on. And I don't think he ever wanted to go to the Lakers. The Lakers obviously thought they could have gotten him. And there was Jerry, you know, Jerry West was worried the Lakers were going to get him. But I, I think he wanted to go to the Clippers all along. And should you have called his, I don't know. I mean, it's, it's, it's hard to know, but clearly in retrospect, they would have been better off just signing Kawhi and not trading for Paul George. Although Paul George was coming off the best season of his career, having finished third in MVP. And, you know, but

• 1:29:02Bill Simmons?

  He was awesome.

• 1:29:03Speaker 04

  Stars want to play with stars, man. I don't know what to tell you. And if you're put in that, if you're backed into that corner, having put so many chips into this Kawhi basket, where you're following him around during the season, you're at his games, you're letting him know you're watching and all this stuff. It, it would have been a tough pill to swallow.

• 1:29:18Bill Simmons?

  Way to hold off making more jokes about following them around and waving carrots. And I, you really held back. I was, I was impressed. There's been a couple of stretches in the history of the league

• 1:29:31Bill Simmons?

  that are just, just kind of earth shattering to look back at in retrospect. And I think one of those stretches for the league was that 2019 season, followed by the COVID season. Just Kawhi sitting there being available, really for anybody. Nobody knowing whether they should even trade for him or not. Nobody thinking he'd stay more than a year. All these teams kicking the tires on it, ultimately decided not to. And Toronto just saying, fuck it and doing it, right? So you had that, you had Golden State with a suddenly, nobody understood why, but maybe sort of unhappy Durant. And then you had the, the Kyrie piece. And then as the, and then the fight with Draymond on court argument.

• 1:30:15Bill Simmons?

  And then Kyrie falling apart in Boston. And then it's like, wait, are these guys headed toward maybe playing together? So you had that, you had the, where's Kawhi going? You had the Anthony Davis basically saying, I want to play for the Lakers mid-season and just blowing up the Lakers and all the young players because they couldn't get the trade done. So that trade's looming and everything's leading to that weird summer where we had the Kawhi thing, the Paul George trade. We had Houston getting a little rocky. And then we had, uh,

• 1:30:43Speaker 04

  Houston traded Chris Paul for Russ.

• 1:30:45Bill Simmons?

  We had that. And then we have, if we have this new season that starts with all these guys and these new teams, and then COVID happens. It will never be top. That's has to be the weirdest two years we've ever had.

• 1:30:57Speaker 04

  It's pretty weird. There's a lot. I mean, the Kyrie thing by itself was such an earthquake. The Kyrie basically demanding a trade out of Cleveland was and because that took a long time to resolve itself as well as you as you lived and know well. That was because if I'm remembering my calendar right, that came kind of after free agency that summer was mostly over and we were into like calm mode like, oh, there's no.

• 1:31:22Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, we were having our ringer NBA meetings.

• 1:31:26Speaker 04

  And then it was like.

• 1:31:26Bill Simmons?

  Everything was done. And then it was like Kawhi is now a Boston Celtic. Really? Whoa. And we like sprung into action.

• 1:31:33Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, so really strange stretch. Kawhi and that whole trade moves into it. I think the Clippers would do it again, but there is this alternate universe.

• 1:31:43Bill Simmons?

  Where they would have had Kawhi.

• 1:31:46Bill Simmons?

  SGA in his second year, Zubats, Gallinari, Lou Williams. Max cap space to try to trade for any other guys. Patrick Beverley, Harold Shamit, all their picks, and then some other picks that they've gotten.

• 1:32:00Speaker 04

  That's the key because you could live in this world where if you just get Kawhi and you don't trade for Paul George. You're good now and good later and set up to be good for 15 years and maybe you're really good, but to get the good now part. At some point in the first 18 months, you need another guy.

• 1:32:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, right. Which with the cap space and everything else. Who knows? They might have they might have traded for it. So now, so he's it's somehow year 15. 766 games and 146 playoff games. So he hasn't even played. A thousand games combined yet. How many more years is he going to play? Would you trade for him this summer? Would the Clippers consider trading for him? And then we haven't talked about the aspiration piece of this yet and the fact that we have no idea if they're going to get punished. We've heard crazy rumors about what the punishment might be or might not be. Including there's a voided contract contention out there that I enjoy.

• 1:32:59Bill Simmons?

  They're kind of like the the Kawhi aspiration truthers that he's just going to be a free agent this summer. I don't think that's going to happen.

• 1:33:08Speaker 04

  That would surprise me, but.

• 1:33:12Speaker 04

  What am I supposed to say? It would surprise me. So would that? So would the whole aspiration thing?

• 1:33:17Bill Simmons?

  I think we're prepared for all of it. Um, ride me out for the next four Kawhi years. What happens? What do you foresee?

• 1:33:25Speaker 04

  I foresee the safest bet and what I would bet on is he never leaves the Clippers and they are a good, solid team that never breaks through in a big way, but well, but there is also a universe where they do have all this max cap space set up. They're the Clippers, they're LA, they have anyone with them. Maybe somebody comes. I don't know who that somebody is. But I think I, I, I bet he stays with the Clippers and it's just a marriage that, that lasts for whatever reason. And he rides it out as a very good player on a good team and maybe that's it.

• 1:33:57Bill Simmons?

  It's like a true crime series where the couple, one of the couple had an affair and with the gardener and then they killed the gardener and buried him under the house. And now they're married for life and they just have to.

• 1:34:08Speaker 04

  I didn't say all that. I just said he stayed with the Clippers. I didn't mention a gardener.

• 1:34:12Bill Simmons?

  Good apple show.

• 1:34:14Speaker 04

  Who's the gardener?

• 1:34:15Bill Simmons?

  Jon Hamm and Diane Lane and they have a secret.

• 1:34:20Bill Simmons?

  They have to stay together.

• 1:34:21Speaker 04

  Diane Lane getting involved. I like that.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  They have to stay for the rest of whatever. Uh, yeah, that the dirty secret is they're actually like okay positioned as long as they don't get nailed with some sort of giant suspension thing, right? They were able to get younger with Garland and Matherin, who I think they're going to re-sign. They'll have Kawhi. They have some flexibility with expirings. They're finally done with this OKC trade. So, and they're going to have cap space in 27, which is what they seem to care about.

• 1:34:51Speaker 04

  And I think they did well in the Zubotz trade. I think they did probably very well in the Zubotz trade. And we'll see what the lottery does, you know, if they do land a, a fifth, sixth, seventh pick in this draft, that's a huge deal for them. And I think they did well in that, in that trade.

• 1:35:07Bill Simmons?

  Last thing with Kawhi.

• 1:35:10Bill Simmons?

  I, so you, you see these guys when they come into the league.

• 1:35:16Bill Simmons?

  Within a couple of years, they're in the vicinity of where they end up, right? And you have some, some situations like Jalen Brown, where it's like Jalen Brown, great athlete. There were pieces of it. I never thought he would be as good of an all around player as he is now, and as good of an offensive player. I always thought he'd be a little bit flawed and a little bit. It's just you would, you'd always see the weaknesses with him and he's gotten to a level higher than I thought. But it's still like, if you watch Jalen Brown in 2018, 19, and you watch him now, it's not, you could see that, you could see like that led to this, I guess is my point.

• 1:35:52Speaker 04

  You're talking about the Jalen Brown that the Spurs surely asked for in the Kawhi Leonard trade talks.

• 1:35:58Bill Simmons?

  But you see Durant in year two, and it's gonna still look like what we're watching now with Houston. You even see like, as, as different as LeBron is now physically, there's still a lot of the same stuff of like the head steam down, all that. If you go and watch Kawhi in like 2013 and watch the Kawhi now, it's like, it's like he, it's a different human being. Like, he has this dead eye three point shot now. His three point shooting was always good. But now he has this like stutter step, line drive in your face shot. He's got that little foul line jumper, like his, his paint game is unbelievable. Like, he's really one of the most gifted scorers of this century now.

• 1:36:40Bill Simmons?

  And I just, that would have been inconceivable to me going into the 2014 finals games. You've never ever in a million years could have convinced me, this guy will eventually be a Jedi on offense. I never would have bought it.

• 1:36:52Speaker 04

  Part of it is being drafted to a good team, right? So you're not just given the keys right away to like, oh, he averaged 27 points in his second year. Part of it is that they worked hard on his shot and he worked hard on his shot. And it went from a potential liability to a massive asset. And part of it is just reps and reps and reps and getting better and better. And it's very, I think, apt that you mentioned Jalen Brown, because during the Kawhi thing. I wrote about Jalen Brown for ESPN and about how this dilemma the Celtics faced of like, should we, should we trade this guy for Kawhi and age ourselves up seven, eight years, whatever it was. And I wrote, like, if you looked at a lot of the statistical indicators, and I'm talking to tracking stuff, like number of pick and rolls ran pretty low, number of ISOs ran

• 1:37:35Speaker 04

  pretty low, assists out of pick and roll, like they, they were very similar players at that stage when Kawhi was a Jalen Brown stage in his career, then they were very similar players. And Jalen Brown has not become as good as Pete Kawhi Leonard, but he's developed in sort of a similar, like, the breadth of his game has taken it, has taken him to places where it didn't, it didn't appear that it could have gone back then. But it was there. There was like, it was lurking in there.

• 1:38:00Bill Simmons?

  My big case for not making that trade, and I did it on pods back then, was the profile of him versus Paul George was very similar, Jalen Brown. And it just felt like a pretty good bet that he could be as good as Paul George, barring an injury, right? And that was going to be his arc as a player.

• 1:38:20Speaker 04

  Another guy they could have traded Jalen Brown for.

• 1:38:23Bill Simmons?

  Right. And the question for me is, why would I trade this for a year of Kawhi Leonard when there's no chance he's going to stay? It made no sense to me. I didn't think they should do it. The other what if we didn't mention, how weird that 2011 draft was. Kawhi goes first.

• 1:38:41Speaker 04

  What if the Pacers never traded him?

• 1:38:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, you have that, but you also have Milwaukee takes Jimmer for that 10th. Klay Thompson goes 11th to Golden State. Alec Burks 12th to Utah. The Morris Twins go 13th and 14th to Phoenix and Houston.

• 1:39:00Speaker 04

  Okay.

• 1:39:01Bill Simmons?

  And I'm actually surprised Darryl passed on Kawhi at 14. It felt like he would have fit the model and from some of the stuff he was doing at San Diego State. Indiana takes Kawhi 15th. And then trades him for George Hill. And that was one of the first great pieces you wrote for us at Grantland when you did the whole deep dive of a trade that I think both teams were probably happy about because George Hill, they got to the conference finals twice. And you have to give up something to get something to give up Kawhi. But there's an interesting alternate universe where they just have Danny Granger, Paul George, and Kawhi Leonard. And there's like, I just will figure out who brings the ball up.

• 1:39:37Speaker 04

  It's a really fun draft all the way down because like Jimmy Butler sneaks in at number 30.

• 1:39:42Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah. It's a drunk draft.

• 1:39:44Speaker 04

  Chandler Parsons at number 38 becomes a weirdly important player because of his contract and the decision the Rockets had to make to like restrict him or out restrict him. I can't remember exactly. It was a very, it was a very fun draft.

• 1:39:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, so the rap on Kawhi, he's at San Diego State for two seasons. His second year, he averaged 16 and 11. And he was 25 for 86 from three. And this is the college three, shot 29%. And the rap was, great athlete, can't shoot. And then San Antonio was like, we're going to fix him in like a month. And he's basically been a good three-point shooter, I think, other than his rookie year for most of his career. The other question for me is in the pyramid, how high can he go? If he could put together a couple more really high-end years? Because that's where like Dwyane Wade, his career ended pretty abruptly, right?

• 1:40:39Bill Simmons?

  He was, his peak was from his rookie year in Miami, 04-05 season. I would say through about 13 with Miami. And then he just moved into a different phase of his career.

• 1:40:51Speaker 04

  He was leaking oil in the 2014 finals.

• 1:40:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, the 33-game winning streak was probably his last great hurrah. Isaiah Thomas, I have a 29, his career ended early, and then Cousy at 28. Like, there is a chance he could move into that Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Bob Pettit, I have from 26, 25, 24, 23, in that range. If he can play like three, four more years, I think that's a good range for him. And maybe that's where he ends up.

• 1:41:18Speaker 04

  Can I, can I give you a Kawhi stat?

• 1:41:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:41:21Speaker 04

  So I did a little basketball reference diving. And these are, these are cherry pick numbers, to be sure, but I put them a little lower just to make sure I was including. I wasn't just cutting it off like right where Kawhi hit. All right, here are the guys who in the entire history of the NBA ABA. Played at least 5,000 minutes in the playoffs. Now, that's where I had to cherry pick a little bit because Kawhi is at 5100. So he's barely over that.

• 1:41:49Bill Simmons?

  5,000 minutes is still a lot for the playoffs.

• 1:41:52Speaker 04

  5,000 minutes, points per game, at least 21. Kawhi is at 21 and a half, I think. Player efficiency rating, at least 23. Kawhi is at 24 and change, 24.2. So 5,000 minutes, all playoffs. This is all playoffs. Points per game in the playoffs, greater than 21. PR in the playoffs, greater than 23. Nine guys in the history of the NBA. LeBron James, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaq, Jerry West, Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, Dirk Nowitzki, Hakeem Olajuwon. That's the whole list. That's what we're talking about. Like, that's what this guy is.

• 1:42:33Bill Simmons?

  It would have been really fun if Detroit said, fuck it, and traded for him.

• 1:42:39Speaker 04

  They have the best record in the NBA.

• 1:42:42Bill Simmons?

  I would have said, don't do that. But if they had done that, I would have talked myself into it in two minutes.

• 1:42:48Speaker 04

  It would have, it would have been, it would have been, we would have been exhilarated on the trade deadline show. We would, if that had broken at 212, trade deadline day, Detroit to what?

• 1:43:01Bill Simmons?

  You saw in the All-Star game, there's very few guys that can take over a quarter like that on both ends. And, you know, I, we're gonna look back in the 21st century and especially at the forward position where we had a lot of good ones. And I think LeBron and Durant will levitate above the other ones as forwards. But Kawhi is the one. Dirk had his moment too, in 2011 especially. And that's probably, I'm probably leaving somebody out, but those would be the four that I think were the most impactful forwards. And winning titles on two different teams. I hope he has one more run because he's really fun to watch in person, is the other thing. I still feel like he delivers the goods and there's just nobody like him in the league.

• 1:43:46Bill Simmons?

  I don't even know who to compare him to.

• 1:43:49Speaker 04

  I mean, I would, I would love him to have one more real run. The, the problem is, I just, I mean, they lost in seven to the Nuggets last year in the first round. So we didn't get to see a long run, but we just haven't had a long run.

• 1:44:03Bill Simmons?

  And we're probably not getting it.

• 1:44:04Speaker 04

  Since the bubble, it's just every playoffs where even when it starts promising, he gets injured.

• 1:44:10Bill Simmons?

  Kawhi Leonard, uh, before we go, that was fun. I enjoyed our deep dive.

• 1:44:15Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's, it's a fascinating one.

• 1:44:18Bill Simmons?

  Um, before we go, oh, and by the way, the other thing with Kawhi is if you went around the league and said, give me your three best off the court Kawhi stories. How many could you actually get from people?

• 1:44:32Speaker 04

  It's, I, I mean.

• 1:44:34Bill Simmons?

  I, I don't know anyone who even knows, like, nobody knows anything about him even now, 15 years in.

• 1:44:41Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't, I don't think, I like, like, what did Harden say when, right before he got traded? He, there was some piece where he was like, I think I know him probably better than anyone in the league and I don't really know him. We don't really talk much.

• 1:44:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, like I was, I was Googling him and it was like Kawhi's marriage. I was like, Kawhi's married? I just, no idea. Never, never really seen him in any situation like that. Before we go, Winter Olympics, how much did you consume? Are you just in full basketball?

• 1:45:05Speaker 04

  Uh, it was on in the background now and then, cause my daughter enjoyed it. So like around dinner in the evening, we'd, we'd have it on. I missed the hockey games. Um, I missed both the gold medal hockey games. So I was watching basketball, but we, we saw a fair bit of curling, figure skating, you know, uh, luge, bobsled. We saw, we saw some of that. Now I can't say, I can't name a bobsledder or a loser, or even if I can name a couple of figure skaters, that's it.

• 1:45:30Bill Simmons?

  The hockey was incredible. The women's hockey game was outstanding and so much fun. Um, and then today, the US, Canada, which I did not wake up for until the third period, but, um, the three and three, I don't love for the gold medal. I would have gone four on four for 10 minutes, then eased into the three on three. Um, but as usual with hockey, our goalie stood on his head and stopped everything and was just out of his mind. And hockey is a lot more simple to understand sometimes than like basketball, which we just talked about for two hours. In hockey, sometimes your goalie can just single-handedly win everything for you. And you're like, all right.

• 1:46:12Bill Simmons?

  Couldn't score on our goalie and now, now we've won.

• 1:46:15Speaker 04

  I will say it.

• 1:46:16Bill Simmons?

  That's what happened.

• 1:46:17Speaker 04

  I will say it all the time. One of the greatest feats I have ever seen in sports. I only saw because one of my best friends in college is from the Czech Republic. In the 1998 Olympics in Nagano, we got up in the middle of the night, every night to watch the Czech hockey team because he was so into it. And they won the gold medal and they won the gold medal because Dominic Hasek just lost his mind for, I mean, he was the best goalie in the world, but I mean, in that Olympics, there was a shootout against Canada, I think in the semifinals where he went five for five and it was like Lindros. It was just every like A plus Canadian player took a run at him in a shootout and he saved every single one. It was absolutely insane. It was one of the best things I've ever seen.

• 1:46:58Bill Simmons?

  Well, the most fun thing for me about this, uh, it was awesome. I, I love this Olympic hockey run, but, um, we had the Kachuk brothers who were on the US Olympic hockey team who Brady and, and, uh, Keith and is it Keith? Brady and Matthew Keith was the dad and everybody who's ever gone against either of their teams kind of hates those guys because they're like agitator frustrating guys and they've, they've had a lot of success. But on team America, you have to throw it aside. But now we have the Hughes brothers who are the younger versions of them. You don't have the same baggage because they, you haven't, your team hasn't battled them. And the Hughes brothers

• 1:47:38Bill Simmons?

  were the two of the heroes because one scored the winning goal and one, and then the other scored the winning goal today, but their mom, you know, I love mom stuff with the, with the athletic genes when the, because I really think it comes from the mom a lot of the times. The mom was the greatest athlete in the history of UNH. She played, she was a three sport athlete in college. She was soccer, hockey and lacrosse. Mike O'Malley told me this and because he went there, he was like two years older than I had to go look it up. And then was this famous college hockey player who was like on the first Olympic team, but like just this legendary athlete. And then goes and has the Hughes kids and there's a third Hughes kid who could have made the team and got hurt. Luke Hughes, who's the defenseman.

• 1:48:20Speaker 04

  I legitimately thought you were gonna say that their mom is Sarah Hughes, the Olympic gold medal finger skater from like 20 years ago.

• 1:48:28Bill Simmons?

  No, no, that would've been exciting too.

• 1:48:30Speaker 04

  In my head, I was like, it feels like she would have had kids real young if it was that Sarah Hughes. And I don't think that, I don't remember her doing that. All right. But better, better athlete than Jackie McMullin, another UNH great.

• 1:48:42Bill Simmons?

  Exactly. And then another thing, which a bunch of my Jewish friends were excited about this. They said this is one of the great moments in Jewish sports history because the Hughes brothers are, the mom is Jewish and they had bar mitzvahs. So they're like, we're claiming this is one of the great.

• 1:48:54Speaker 04

  I'm learning a lot. This is, this is, I'm learning a lot about the Olympics right now.

• 1:48:58Bill Simmons?

  I mean, this mom, three sport athlete in college. It's div one. It's not like it's div three, where you can just kind of show up for the season.

• 1:49:07Speaker 04

  Have you booked her for the Bill Simmons podcast yet?

• 1:49:09Bill Simmons?

  I have so many more questions. And then she married a hockey guy and they have three kids who are all like, you know, major NHL players.

• 1:49:19Speaker 04

  Get her in the Suns on the pod. Get her on.

• 1:49:21Bill Simmons?

  Guy loses his teeth, scores the winning goal right after. It's like the famous photo and you know, the 1980 Olympic team was the true non-Boston sports highlight of my life. So it was fun to get a little umbilical cord. And then poor Connor McDavid, who I know you don't follow hockey, but has had these tragic come close. He's the best player in the world.

• 1:49:44Speaker 04

  He's the Oilers wonder kid, right?

• 1:49:45Bill Simmons?

  He's been the best player in the world for years. Can't get over the hump with the cup. Now loses in OT, the gold medal game, and now is becoming this tragic, tragic Charles Barkley type figure.

• 1:49:57Speaker 04

  But he's like the Jerry West where no one's holding it against him, right?

• 1:50:00Bill Simmons?

  Nobody's holding it against him.

• 1:50:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:50:02Bill Simmons?

  No, the Jerry West is a really good example. Nobody's blamed him, but at some point, he's gonna end up throwing a chair through his window like Jerry West in Winning Time. Although I'm not sure that actually happened. Anyway, that's my Olympic report. I had a great time with the hockey team. Go USA. And then they, they did the Pat Riley thing today, which we forgot about. They're running out of statues. It's like 15 statues.

• 1:50:25Speaker 04

  Around crypto. But that's, they did at least, having seen some of our recent statues, at least that one looks exactly like Pat Riley and it looks nice.

• 1:50:36Bill Simmons?

  We're getting better at that. Social media has bullied the statue people.

• 1:50:42Bill Simmons?

  And to be just being better at statues.

• 1:50:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I still feel for Dwyane Wade. It didn't work out.

• 1:50:48Bill Simmons?

  Can you catch up on the JFK Junior Carolyn Bissett Show with your wife? So that when we do, uh, when we do a pod next week, we can do five minutes on it.

• 1:50:57Speaker 04

  I, I don't know anything about it. I know you're obsessed with it. I know everyone else in my life wants to talk about the Guthrie kidnapping case. I got, I guess I got a lot of stuff I gotta catch up on because I just, I don't have a lot to add to these conversations.

• 1:51:08Bill Simmons?

  All right. Zach Lowe. Next podcast for the Zach Lowe Show is Tuesday.

• 1:51:14Speaker 04

  Coming up Spurs Pistons.

• 1:51:15Bill Simmons?

  Hopefully, um, you don't get snowed in. Good luck with the snow. Good luck to everybody back east, including my poor dad, who can't believe it's snowing again. And my daughter, who's ready to come back to California. Uh, stay safe on the East Coast there. Good luck with the blizzard. Thanks to, uh, Jack Wilson. Thanks to Chris. Thanks to Gahal. Thanks to Eduardo as well from our end. And I will see you on this feed. On Tuesday. By the way, new rewatchables coming tomorrow. We're doing, uh, Crazy Stupid Love. So stay tuned for that. Thanks, Zach.

• 1:51:42Speaker 04

  Anytime.

• 1:51:44Bill Simmons?

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• 1:52:24Bill Simmons?

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• 1:53:05Bill Simmons?

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