Sam Ryder - ‘Fame is like giving a dog a treat every single day. You get used to it.’

Over on Failing with Friends - Sam Ryder talks about panic attacks, how to forgive, and (in a How To Fail first) why he likes to cut his toenails outdoors. To hear Sam tackling your failures join our community of subscribers here: https://howtofail.supportingcast.fm/#content Sam Ryder is a British singer-songwriter who started posting covers on TikTok during the pandemic that ended up catching the eye of Sia, Elton John and Justin Bieber. He represented the UK at the Eurovision Song Contest in 2022, placing second only to Ukraine. It was our highest-scoring entry in 24 years. In one of my favourite ever episodes, Sam talks about the pressures of fame, the challenge of keeping ego in check, the transformative power of gratitude and why he thinks Dolly Parton is ‘the supreme being’. We also talk about tracks from Sam Ryder’s upcoming album, including his single ‘White Lies’ out 21st March. ✨ IN THIS EPISODE: 00:00 Intro 01:08 Early Life and Career 03:26 The Wedding Singer Years 08:20 Rising to Fame 18:36 The TikTok Breakthrough 23:56 Failures and Reflections 24:58 The Illusion of Positivity 26:35 Groundedness and Realistic Thinking 27:56 The Role of Faith and Spirituality 30:48 Ego and Gratitude 33:44 Navigating the Music Industry 40:45 Family and Personal Life 43:36 Reflections on Success and Failure 46:00 Famous Encounters and Final Thoughts Have something to share of your own? I'd love to hear from you! Click here to get in touch: howtofailpod.com Production & Post Production Coordinator: Eric Ryan Studio and Mix Engineer: Matias Torres Sole & Gulliver Lawrence-Tickell Senior Producer: Selina Ream Executive Producer: Carly Maile Head of Marketing: Kieran Lancini How to Fail is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment Production. Find more great podcasts from Sony Music Entertainment at sonymusic.com/podcasts To bring your brand to life in this podcast, email [email protected] Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things we talk about a lot on How to Fail is how difficult it can be to take that first step, and starting a business is no exception. With Black Friday approaching, it's a great time to turn an idea into reality. Shopify makes launching an online store easier with ready-made themes and AI-powered tools, including Sidekick, its AI assistant, which helps you set up your shop and plan promotions without needing coding skills. Whether you're exploring a new venture or finally acting on an idea you've had for years, Shopify gives you the tools and support to get started with confidence and make the most of the busy shopping season. If you're ready to launch your business before Black Friday, go to Shopify.co.uk/fail

• 0:45Elizabeth Day?

  to start your free trial. That's Shopify.co.uk/fail. Go to Shopify.co.uk/fail today to hear your first...

• 0:57Elizabeth Day?

  One of the things I hear a lot from listeners is how tiring it can be when your mind just doesn't settle. And I can only imagine this feels even heavier with intrusive thoughts. It's that quiet sense of being worn down by something you never asked for and never wanted, but just can't seem to switch off. If you struggle with this, I want to tell you about NoCD, because it's a resource that genuinely helps people. NoCD provides specialised treatment for OCD. And what I appreciate about their approach is how human it feels. You're matched with a licensed therapist trained in ERP therapy. That's Exposure and Response Prevention. And over time, you learn skills that help your OCD symptoms become manageable, so you can live more of the life you want to live.

• 1:42Elizabeth Day?

  If you're struggling with OCD or unrelenting intrusive thoughts, NoCD can help. Book a free 15-minute call to get started at learn.nocd.com/fail. Hello, lovely How to Fail listeners and viewers. This is just to let you know that if you want a peek behind the curtain, to find out the last time that Kate Winslet spoke to Leo, or how much sex Vogue Williams considers to be normal, then you can listen to my subscriber series. Just follow the link in the show notes and we will see you there.

• 2:23Speaker 01

  When the band would start going downhill, because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline, I'd jump on the next one. The fact that you've found it, the scales are balanced forever.

• 2:36Elizabeth Day?

  That is so profound. You've actually made me well up. Have you seen Ed Sheeran since?

• 2:43Speaker 01

  We've never met.

• 2:45Elizabeth Day?

  Welcome to How To Fail. And for those that are new around here, this is the podcast where I talk to my guests about three failures in their life and what they've learned along the way. Please do follow this podcast because it really helps other people find us. And please do share it with all of your friends and family members and even people you don't like. We're not fussy. Thank you so much for being here.

• 3:11Elizabeth Day?

  My guest today is a British singer songwriter who shot to international fame in 2022 when he represented the UK at the Eurovision Song Contest, placing second only to Ukraine. It was our highest scoring entry in 24 years, and the man who sang and co-wrote it was none other than Sam Ryder. He was born and raised in Essex, the son of a carpenter and a dentist, and his first job was delivering papers for the Essex Chronicle. From an early age, Ryder loved music. Some of his earliest memories are of singing along to Freddie Mercury in his dad's car. He spent several years as a wedding singer until COVID hit

• 3:54Elizabeth Day?

  and lockdown restrictions made public performances impossible. So he turned to TikTok, uploading music covers. He gained a huge following and eventually a record deal. His singing caught the attention of artists such as Elton John, Sia, Justin Bieber, and Alicia Keys. And in 2022, his debut album debuted at number one in the UK album charts. After two Brit Award nominations, he's now releasing White Lies, the first single from his second album, which he's been hard at work on for most of last year. I've been playing music for a long time, mostly to empty rooms, Ryder has said about

• 4:37Elizabeth Day?

  his rise to fame. That's the reality for so many people, absolutely grafting, carrying on regardless with a sort of blind ambition, believing that you'll make it one day and it might not be tomorrow. Sam Ryder, welcome to How To Fail.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  Mate, thank you so much for having me. I'm blown away. Thank you.

• 4:58Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, I'm blown away to have you here. How did that make you feel, hearing that?

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Really, a bit emotional, actually. Yeah, just so lovely, just remembering how much my parents have supported me from, yeah, delivering papers around, well, you can't even call it a village when I grew up. And then working the drive-through, then going to work with my dad and just, yeah, all the sort of self-belief you've got and you have to have in yourself through those years.

• 5:30Elizabeth Day?

  Is it true that you helped your dad build Wembley Stadium?

• 5:33Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, we did. A very small amount of it. We put some floors down in one of the, like, the hospitality rooms. Some of those doors were hung by me and they probably swing like saloon doors now. And they've had so much plane off the top and bottom because they're wonky, but.

• 5:49Elizabeth Day?

  I'm sure that's not true. Tell me about being a wedding singer and those years spent performing in that context. What do you think those years taught you?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  So I'd worked with my dad for a bit in carpentry and my dad, bless him, he was just like, you know, wanted to help me out, make sure that I could earn some money and buy some guitars and like chase music, basically. We had a lot of disagreements growing up and it instilled in me a real ethic for hard work and you get what you put in, in this world and in this life. I really like feel that from my dad. And, but he would let me go and play shows and go on tour with bands because that was my dream. And he knew that carpentry was a way that I could learn skills, put some money in the bank and go and see

• 6:43Speaker 01

  the world and chase, like, run down the dream, like Tom Petty would say, you know?

• 6:47Elizabeth Day?

  Yeah.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  And so I'd play in like punk bands and metal bands because that was my music growing up. It still is now, like Iron Maiden, like. My favourite band on the planet and they they taught me so much about kind of perseverance and uh just melodic sensibility in music and and far more. So I did that for a a lot of years, again, playing to no one. That's when I when you said in your introduction, that's the time that it was just playing around Europe, around Russia, around South America, around the US. Um I played all over the place with different bands. I was like a, I always sounds like a flea on a bunch of dying dogs, just sort of jumping off them

• 7:29Speaker 01

  at the right time to like be kind of on the next one. And uh when the band would start going downhill, because I was always seemingly joining a band as they were on the decline, I'd jump on the next one, you know, until I made a conscious effort to um really rethink my approach to music and and what I was doing it for, uh which we can get into later. But um that that's when I took a break from chasing that same kind of feedback loop. And then I started singing at weddings.

• 8:03Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 8:03Speaker 01

  And that's where I learned the most about music. And and you could say that's the uh like, in terms of like cool anecdotes and stories, there's far more when you're playing in some random like underground club in in Russia than there is playing at an Essex like whitewashed wedding venue, like i- in the countryside. It's um but that's where I learned everything I feel about singing and and being a vocalist and and stuff like that.

• 8:33Elizabeth Day?

  And it was one of the things that you learnt, that you had to do it for the love of it, because so often at weddings, people are drunk and not paying attention.

• 8:43Speaker 01

  You are anonymous. You are meat in the room. Like, one of the first weddings that I did, I was very much in a space, you know, when you're like, starting out, your ego is an uncontrollable sort of state, because it it needs to be. It's um, you have to tell yourself, oh, I'm special, I'll make it one day and all this sort of. Um, no, this narrative that replays in your mind. Um, because it's a, it's a, it's kind of like your superpower. You've got nothing else. You need to have some kind of like overextended belief in yourself. And I remember singing at a wedding and I had this, uh, this run. I think it was in like a Gloria Gaynor song that we were covering or something like that. I remember thinking in my head, oh, I absolutely nailed that. They will love that.

• 9:28Speaker 01

  And I opened my eyes and no one cared. No one batted an eyelid. And it was then, it was like a very hard lesson immediately that like, no one cares. You have to do this because you love it and do not expect anything else from anyone. It needs to be something that feeds your spirit. Um, and it, music and singing cannot be a thing that you hope to gain something from it. You cannot take anything from it because it's given you everything already. Because music or any kind of work that we, we chase and we give our lives to is purpose. And from that is fulfillment. So to ask for anything from it as currency in return is folly.

• 10:10Speaker 01

  And you, you have to simply, um, be grateful that it exists in your life. Because there are numerous people around the planet who, uh, go through their entire lifespan without knowing what their spark is and what their, their skill is and what their thing that lights them up in this world is. So the fact that you found it, the, the scales are balanced forever.

• 10:33Elizabeth Day?

  That is so profound. You've actually made me well up because you've spoken directly to my soul there.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  I so, I so appreciate that. I can't explain.

• 10:44Elizabeth Day?

  Um, you have been at work in the studio on your second album. Was it nice getting back in the studio after?

• 10:50Speaker 01

  So nice.

• 10:51Elizabeth Day?

  The fame, the success, everything, the Brit Award nominations. Yeah. How did it feel?

• 10:56Speaker 01

  When everything kicked off. Like I was in a state of just abundance of things happening that I could never have dreamt of, like beyond my wildest imaginings. But there comes a price with that because every day you're like, it's like giving a dog a treat every day. So well, like every hour of every day, because you you're kind of, you get used to it. And it can be very taxing if you haven't got your like spiritual armament in check. And so that was something I very much knew that I had to employ and shore up. So, well, there was a time right after the Emmy Awards where we were nominated and we lost to Ed Sheeran, which is going

• 11:41Speaker 01

  to come up again later. We, well, I remember going back to my hotel room in Los Angeles and just very much having a talk with myself, like, this has been a wonderful, I think, three year stint of just things that, like I said, couldn't have imagined happening and realizing dreams and successes alongside an amazing team. But it's time to go into the studio and do the work because there are a lot of voices around telling me, don't ever go away, don't ever be quiet, because the way that we consume media now, that's your your death sentence. To ever just take time for the work and not be out in the public

• 12:25Speaker 01

  eye would be essentially giving it all up. And I hated that. And not to use that word lightly, but I despise that thought process and this thing that puts so much pressure on anyone and regardless of what industry you're in or or anything, just as a human being, being told that and even worse, believing it is is awful. So, I mean, the best way to rebel against that is to do it because creating something that you feel is valuable takes time and it is labor intensive. Good food takes time to cook and you have to, you have to, at some point, just

• 13:10Speaker 01

  Get stuck in.

• 13:12Elizabeth Day?

  I'm going to talk about some of the songs that I've been lucky enough to hear from it a bit later. I feel there's been a shift in your sound and I can't put my finger on it. So will you describe the second album's sound?

• 13:24Speaker 01

  I call the genre frontier soul because for me, like, I'm a big fan of cinema as well as music and Tarantino's work, for example, or all the old westerns that me and my grandad would watch like over and over again because we'd forgotten what ones we'd seen and, and stuff like that. Like, all of that is in the music as well. There's a dusty kind of desert-y soul that exists in, in the soundscape, whether it's in the guitars or even just the way that we've captured it on old tape machines. And all of this thing, it takes time. It's not quick. Even using machines like that is labour intensive and it's methodical and it makes you

• 14:07Speaker 01

  think about what you're doing, kind of being present in the process of doing it, if that makes sense.

• 14:13Elizabeth Day?

  It makes total sense. Let's get on to your failures. Your first one is losing at a battle of the bands to support Ed Sheeran in 2019.

• 14:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 14:22Elizabeth Day?

  Okay, so tell us what happened.

• 14:24Speaker 01

  At this moment in time, I was singing at weddings but also running a, like a vegan juice bar, like a healthy sort of food establishment with my partner Lois. And it was so amazing. We did that for three years and we were so healthy, I can't explain. We were like, I don't know, I made all the juices. So I'd, I'd go and play at weddings and then instead of going home to bed afterwards, because you don't really leave them till like 1.30 or 2 in the morning, I'd go straight to the shop. So people would see me, like the milkman would drive past. We had this lovely big bay window and the milkman would go past and I'd be in a suit, cutting watermelons up because I'd get all the cold pressed juice made, which again is very methodical. It takes ages. It's not like,

• 15:07Speaker 01

  you know, the ones where you throw apples in a lot, it's like slow little corkscrew and it is kind of, yeah, it's almost like mantra, you know, when you're making these juices. So I'd do that, it'd take hours and then Lois would come in and serve the food. She's amazing at like dealing with a busy cafe. I can't bear it. I couldn't like, there would be times if I was on my own in the shop, people would want to come in and I'd say, I'm sorry, we're closed. Cause I, I just, I felt I just couldn't do it.

• 15:35Elizabeth Day?

  That's interesting.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  I just can't do it.

• 15:37Elizabeth Day?

  Are you an introvert?

• 15:39Speaker 01

  But no, no, because I love people. I love like um saying hello to anyone and everyone. Like I I love chatting, but there's something in me when people are waiting for something from me. Like even to make them like a peanut butter bagel with a juice, I'd be freaking out and I've always been like that.

• 15:58Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, you can never go on Celebrity MasterChef.

• 16:00Speaker 01

  No, couldn't never. Um but yeah, so so I do that and then um. So this was at the the time my life that that was going on. And when I'd finish, I'd go back to my studio and I'd just make like records and and songs and write. And go and play little shows uh in London as and when they came up. And this opportunity came up to uh get involved in this battle of the bands. And I was laughing because I was like, I haven't been involved in a battle of the bands since I was probably sixteen years old. And here I am in my, well, it would have been my mid twenties, I think, doing it again. So in a way, if you get in your head, it felt like a backward step, but I was like, you know what? I feel like I could do this in the right way now, you know?

• 16:44Speaker 01

  And and the prize was to me at that time so amazing, you know? Get the chance to open up for Ed Sheeran. So it's like huge, something, you know, just mad. And um so I did this and I re I got on stage and I played my set. And I came off stage and I was like really happy with that performance and whatever happens, happens. And of course, that's a lie that we all tell ourselves because you're like, I want to win.

• 17:09Speaker 01

  And then um I didn't win, but it felt for for whatever reason. It felt like the final nail in the coffin. And I don't know why, because I remember standing out. It was a really lovely, clear night and the stars were out. The gig was at this small cafe in Ipswich. And I was with my partner. Lois and we were just stood by the water and I was so sad like sad's not the word, but I just felt like, oh, that that was, you know, you know, when you hear people like when they talk to their, um, I don't know, their grandkids or their nieces and nephews when they're older, like, that was my last gig, or my last time trying. And that's when I really threw in the towel or something like that. It felt like that could have been that

• 17:53Speaker 01

  moment for me. And, um, it just felt very poignant. I was like, okay, well, I gave it my best shot and no one can say otherwise because I gave everything in the chase and the pursuit of this dream. And maybe it wasn't for me and life holds something else for me. I've learnt so much and I'll carry on singing, but I'll just sing for people getting married and that would be my life. And what a lovely life it still would have been. There's nothing terrible about it by any means, but, um, it still felt like, you know, sad in that way. And, um, I remember Lois really comforting me and saying and holding my hands and we both looked up to the stars. I know this is going to sound so waffy, but

• 18:38Speaker 01

  you know, there's something about a lovely, clear night. It's for millennia, we've all done, like, humans have done it. You look up and it feels like your, your problems are tiny and you, but you are still part of something majestic. And all you have to do is look up and feel that way. And we both said, I am ready. I'm ready for this to happen. And I, I invite it into my life and I swear to whatever's out there that I'll perform it with the most grace I can. And that's what we, we both said.

• 19:09Elizabeth Day?

  Oh, my God. That's extraordinary.

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Well, it, it really did feel that way.

• 19:13Elizabeth Day?

  So how important has Lois been through all of this?

• 19:18Speaker 01

  Oh, mate, I, I can't put into words. She, the, the amazing thing, and it's similar, actually, listening to the Danny Dyer episode of this show, because Danny has been with his partner for a, a long time. And I remember him saying that she never really wanted that life, but she came along for the ride in, in the most supportive and loving. And Lois is the same. She never wanted um us to have, she she loved it when I was juicing vegetables, going to sing at weddings and coming home and maybe thought I would get into gardening one day and we'd have a lovely, like a quiet life. And she's been so incredible because she knows that this has been such a dream of mine

• 20:01Speaker 01

  for as long as I can remember. And she was willing to like strap herself on to this like runaway train of upheaval, almost. I've seen what this does to people that don't have someone like Lois

• 20:16Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 20:17Speaker 01

  in their life. It derails everything and it isn't worth the the cost. It just isn't. I've seen like the the look in people's eyes where you can almost see that there is a glaze and just this far away stare in a false happiness and a false content with with this amazing gilded thing that they've been gifted, but it's not, it's not worth.

• 20:43Elizabeth Day?

  It's not rooted.

• 20:44Speaker 01

  Totally fake. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 20:45Elizabeth Day?

  So from that moment, which is twenty nineteen, then Covid happens and the lockdowns hit. So it's not that long after you've

• 20:52Speaker 01

  No.

• 20:52Elizabeth Day?

  you've stood there under the night sky, the stars, and you've said, I invite this in, we are so ready.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:59Elizabeth Day?

  What was the first TikTok video you made?

• 21:02Speaker 01

  I think, I can't remember the exact one because there's, it's all a bit convoluted, but I remember my friend, like my dear friend and Lois's friend Derek in Nashville, who's actually now um part of my management team, which is so lovely. I've known him for twelve years and he was one of the first people that sort of believed in the music I was making and has been there since day one, really. Um, he's, he just told me, look, get on TikTok and sing some songs. I have a good feeling about it. And I was like, I don't want to get on TikTok. I saw people dancing and and stuff like that. He was like, no, just do it. I've just got this feeling. So I was like, okay, cool. Um, I'll do it. And.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  I think one of the first ones that really went off maybe was Sia, maybe singing Sia. Or at least it might not have been the first TikTok, but that in my mind, when I look back, I think it was May fifteenth. Or something, because I like the date is somewhere etched in my mind. I have remembered it before. I don't remember it today. But it was around that time that I remember making a sort of a note, like, you know, you put a sort of fold in the page of your life and be like, that's when life changed. And I remember doing that because I was stirring some pasta. Like it was the lockdown that we had, thankfully, was like huckleberry fin, like the, out in the countryside, the weather that summer was mad good, wasn't it?

• 22:31Speaker 01

  And myself and Lois were living with my parents, my mum and dad, because we'd just bought a house, but it needed to be totally renovated. So me and my dad were like going there when we were allowed to like, take ceilings down and stuff like that. But in the meantime, just living with mum and dad and I was singing in my shed.

• 22:50Speaker 01

  So yeah, I just made this video, put it online and then was just stirring some pasta. We were gonna have a little barbecue at the end of the garden all together. It was a really lovely memory. And all of a sudden I checked my phone and it would, it just had gone crazy. And like Sia had tagged me in this post, sharing the video and, and not just that, but like saying something, it's so incredibly kind in the caption that it felt like, basically reading between the lines, we're rooting for you and we'll see you when you get here. That's how I read it and it was so lovely. And yeah, I I made a mental note that that's when sort of life changed and I knew that we'd, we'd crossed a Rubicon

• 23:33Speaker 01

  that there was no going back from, really.

• 23:36Elizabeth Day?

  Have you seen Ed Sheeran since?

• 23:38Speaker 01

  We've never met to this day. And there's a reason for that, which I I couldn't.

• 23:44Elizabeth Day?

  You hate him?

• 23:45Speaker 01

  No, no, no. I I love Ed, but there was like, I I swore again, the promises I made before getting into this industry that I would never. Um, bring up or put, call anyone out that wasn't there to protect themselves. But there are reasons behind the scenes that kept us apart. Because I know we have wanted to meet each other. And now those have been alleviated and the people that were stopping that are not in the picture. Anymore. Our paths will cross soon, I'm sure, because some very close friends of mine that are very close with him. Always say how similar we are, actually.

• 24:23Elizabeth Day?

  I can.

• 24:23Speaker 01

  So I don't think it's just the ginger beard.

• 24:25Elizabeth Day?

  No.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  But I've heard lovely things and if he's listening, then Ed, it's a long time coming. Let's chat about music.

• 24:32Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, Ed, and if you're listening, please do come on How To Fail because you've said some amazing things about failure. Thanks very much.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:42Elizabeth Day?

  Can we talk about your hair? Are you sick of talking about it?

• 24:44Speaker 01

  No, not at all.

• 24:45Elizabeth Day?

  You've got great hair.

• 24:46Speaker 01

  Mate, thank you so much.

• 24:47Elizabeth Day?

  Honestly, and is it the Iron Maiden inspiration? That is that why you decided to grow it?

• 24:52Speaker 01

  My mum took me to a barber's in Malden High Street when I was young and sort of left me while she went to do the shopping. And they cut and I, I didn't necessarily have long hair when she dropped me off, but they completely shaved it. And I remember I looked like Dracula, like my hairline back then, for whatever reason, was doing a bit of a Count vibe. And I remember looking at myself in the mirror and just swear I'm never gonna have short hair ever again. I look terrible.

• 25:18Elizabeth Day?

  Is it true you once dislocated your shoulder when you were washing it?

• 25:21Speaker 01

  Many times I've dislocated my shoulder.

• 25:23Elizabeth Day?

  Many times.

• 25:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, but that's true. So this one's got a big scar down it where it's been fixed. This one I don't wanna fix because the surgery really limits like your strength. Once, when I come out of the sea from surfing, I was in the shower, like on the beach. And just kind of washing the water out of my hair, the seawater out of my hair. And my thumb got stuck in a loop of like a knot of hair. And then my shoulder dislocated, so I was under this really, you know, like the showers on the beach, they're like. Like almost like fire hydrants. And I just didn't know what to do. I was trying to get this out and I was freezing cold and it was just, yeah. Calamity of errors.

• 26:03Elizabeth Day?

  So you've just showcased your shoulders.

• 26:04Speaker 01

  Should have put that in my list, actually.

• 26:06Elizabeth Day?

  You've just showcased your shoulders several times, but not always washing your hair.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  No.

• 26:09Elizabeth Day?

  That's where I got confused. Okay. Let's move on to your second failure.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 26:13Elizabeth Day?

  I can't wait to get into this one because it sounds really deep. Your second failure, as you put it, is talking openly about being hopeful and having faith, but struggling with it over the past year.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  I'd realised that every interview that I'd done and sort of every conversation I'd had with people in the media in the last sort of three years, when it all kind of went to the next level, would always be introduced in a way, and it was so kind and I really appreciate it, but like, how are you, like, Sam, you're here, how are you so positive? And thanks for being on the show, or whatever. But what I noticed in myself is that, I mentioned this earlier about giving dogs treats. I almost felt like, while it was true, and I can say with my hand on heart, I'm a joyful person

• 27:04Speaker 01

  and I thank God I am, and I found happiness in my life, but I never wanted to sell what I was trying to promote. And there was always a line I never wanted to cross, but I'd crossed it. And I can't deny that there was a dopamine kick when someone would say, how are you so positive? Because your ego loves that. It's like, yes, I am, aren't I? Like, and then almost you notice that positivity can become a currency, but it's, it isn't worth anything. It's snake oil because it's not, none of us are one dimensional.

• 27:47Speaker 01

  Human beings aren't. We are so many different things. And while I totally believe in.

• 27:55Speaker 01

  Not, not bringing and airing your dirty laundry everywhere you go. There is a work face that you put on. But yeah, I felt like perhaps I'd crossed the line of telling myself like those white lies that that was me all the time and I must be that all the time. And even you telling me that I'm that makes me even happier. So you're kind of compounding it. Does that make sense?

• 28:22Elizabeth Day?

  Makes total sense and is so interesting. And White Lies is the title of your.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that, that's what the song was written about. Yeah.

• 28:30Elizabeth Day?

  For you, it sort of became a kind of brand. That's the thing that you were trying to stay away from.

• 28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I don't want to build a brand on, on something that I am because that's the wrong. It feels inherently wrong to me to do that. Because then you're tying yourself to a single dimension.

• 28:51Elizabeth Day?

  Yes, makes total sense. I also, last week, someone told me this very interesting phrase. She said, I don't believe in positive thinking. I believe in flexible and realistic thinking.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:03Elizabeth Day?

  In that what you're describing is a kind of groundedness. That's what I get from you.

• 29:09Speaker 01

  It's presentness.

• 29:10Elizabeth Day?

  Exactly.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  It's not just kind of like, we can't joke and say like golden retriever energy. I totally get that and it's fun, like in like the meme space essentially, but it's not real.

• 29:23Elizabeth Day?

  And it's not you all of the time.

• 29:25Speaker 01

  No, completely not. Like I'm, I'm buzzing when I get to do things like this or, or go out to, I don't know. There was a big F1 event. I'm a massive F1 fan, so of course I'm going to be like smiling my head off when I'm there or there's pictures or anything like that or there's interviews. I just, I love the sport and I love music and I love all these things that I go to. It's because I love them, so of course I'm going to be stoked. But positivity for me isn't this forced happiness at all. It can't be because that's cloaking emotion. Positivity is finding groundedness, like you're saying, presentness, state of peace.

• 30:07Speaker 01

  And you only reach those things, at least I feel, I only reach those things through gratitude and real measured gratitude. And lately, something I've been really trying to employ or talking about prayer is I used to.

• 30:21Speaker 01

  In prayer and regardless of what people believe, what you believe, what people watching believe, like even to not believe in anything is a belief in some way, you know, but for me, prayer used to exist, like I was asking for something, like whether like a destination based prayer, like I want this to happen for me, or I want to experience this. But now it's way more rooted in, I want to feel peace and I want to feel like I've reached peace with a state of grace. And however the path looks to reach that feeling, then protect me on that path. Do you know what I mean?

• 31:03Elizabeth Day?

  I do. How did you get there? Describe what your faith is to you and where it came from?

• 31:11Speaker 01

  Well, I was raised Catholic, but I can't say I would be completely lying if I said I like would know any doctrine, any reading. I couldn't like read a psalm to you from my head or anything like that. But I just know there's a comfort that I feel when I turn to my spirituality. And it's even saying my spirituality feels convoluted because that's not true. It's like the that feeling lives within all of us. I truly think that. And I remember back when I was playing in like hardcore punk bands, I was at a church in Texas. I can't remember even why I was there, but I was actually at a place in my

• 31:56Speaker 01

  life where I would, I probably would have hated going to a church because I've had a very interesting journey when it comes to faith and finding how faith works for me and how I can access that. But I was probably very much a person sitting in the pews thinking this is complete rubbish, you know, but something was said that in that sermon by the pastor was like, even if the kingdom of heaven isn't real, isn't this a better way to live? And it really struck me that and and I can only, in in fact, even just talking to you now, I haven't really thought of that

• 32:36Speaker 01

  since just this moment. And so that is sitting in my subconscious, I think, of just, isn't this a better way to live for me personally?

• 32:47Elizabeth Day?

  When we started this conversation, you were talking about how you'd had a talk with yourself after not winning the Emmy in a hotel room in L A. Can you tell us more about that?

• 32:58Speaker 01

  Hmm, I was really rough, actually. Uh, I think no one is without ego, but that it exists in in all of us. It's part of us almost that keeps us in check. It's a voice where you can be like, you can challenge it and make sure that it keeps you on the right path, that it doesn't, um, ego unchecked is the problem.

• 33:17Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 33:18Speaker 01

  You know, um, and gratitude is the force that holds it at bay. And, uh, but I remember being so, um, uh, kind of heard that we didn't get it because we put so much work into it. And it was such a selfish viewpoint that I had then in that hotel room. Uh, and I thought I'd got rid of, uh, that wasn't me. I I I'm totally not about that. And popular opinion would say, oh, that's what you you would have wanted, the the gold medal, surely you wanted to win. I never felt that. I was like, I I love being here and I know if I've done my best work

• 33:59Speaker 01

  and I've carried myself to the standard that my family and my loved ones would expect of me, I do not care about the end result, because it's it's it's nothing. But that was the first time something, for whatever reason, crept past. It felt like, you know, you know, when you see like an action movie and there's a massive like, I don't know, fight or something, or just foray of energy, bullets are flying, everything's going on. And the the main character is kind of, I don't know, like suavey, like suave dodging everything like James Bond style. And then they kind of.

• 34:40Speaker 01

  The scene dies down and they walk away and then the camera pans down and they realise, oh, they actually did catch a bullet or something, you know, what in typical like cinema technique. And um, that's what it felt like. I was like, I felt like I'd carried these um, ethics and these morals and these values with me, but something sort of got through at some point and uh tried to steer me off. And that's why I made after that, like it was the circuit breaker. I was like, I don't wanna, if I carry on, those, that's how it happens. It's how it begins. No one ever, like I said, gets rid of that ego. You just keep it in check. And the less you keep it in check,

• 35:25Speaker 01

  the more it grows. And um, that's when I was like, I'm gonna go away for a year in the studio, do the spiritual work, do the musical work, do the, the everything work.

• 35:39Elizabeth Day?

  It's really amazing that you were able to do that within yourself with the help of your faith and this higher power. But so many people would need someone else to step in and say, by the way.

• 35:54Speaker 01

  It's a seductive drug, I think. The whole idea of notoriety and recognition in a public space with whatever industry you're in. See, the Brits was just the other night. Well, it's basically putting everyone from every corner of the industry, whether you're presenters, dancers, musicians, singers, um, like designers or creative directors, all in one space, looking at other people in their industry and like, comparison's the thief of joy. We all know that. So we're all, the energy there is like super hectic. You can feel it. And uh, and usually I kind of, I didn't like going, but.

• 36:38Speaker 01

  I was also stoked to be there because they were like, I was lucky enough to get a nomination. So I'd sit there and I'd try and just be thankful and you sit in like trying to just tell yourself over again, thank you, thank you, thank you. Try not to let any of that comparison kick in because it ruins the night. But it is an effort. But this year, I just, I really enjoyed it. I so loved just rooting for people that were winning and seeing them succeed and knowing that other people's um successes aren't your failures. I mean, that's a classic case. We all feel that. That's like um page one of the how to fail book, I suppose, isn't it?

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Um but also knowing the like, when I do fail now, I'm not, we aren't victims of failure. We are beneficiaries.

• 37:28Elizabeth Day?

  If anyone listening to this is struggling, and by anyone, I mean me.

• 37:35Elizabeth Day?

  With, with that.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  Well, I'm there with you. This doesn't, you don't fix it. I don't think.

• 37:40Elizabeth Day?

  It's so difficult because obviously ironically, I've set up this whole podcast about failure and exactly what we're talking about. Because I still care about where I am in the chart, in the podcast chart.

• 37:53Speaker 01

  Stupid, isn't it?

• 37:54Elizabeth Day?

  It's so stupid and I don't know how to stop it.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:58Elizabeth Day?

  How, what advice would you give?

• 38:00Speaker 01

  I totally get you because even releasing new stuff or being in any facet of the industry, like I keep saying, all of us have metrics that people that we work with are looking at. I found that something that brings me a lot of comfort in knowing that there is a foot you must have in the physical and keeping a foot in the spiritual is vital, but having a team around you that you love and you trust and that you, you would truly do anything for, which I, from spending a short amount of time with you, I feel like you would be that person. That a team isn't something in flux. You invite people into your circle who you want to help build up

• 38:42Speaker 01

  and that you would hope will stay with you for the entire journey. That for me is so important. And we've gone to great lengths. People who were deemed. Uh, no longer valuable in the major label system. When we left that, when those people were let go of, we uh took them in to build our own thing all together. As I took them in, it sounds like stray dogs. It wasn't like that. We needed them more than they needed us. Uh, and so we've built that. We've built our own recording studios, our own film studios, everything so that no matter what happens, I can make records with a great team for the rest of my life. And it doesn't matter about the charts because everything's been invested into

• 39:26Speaker 01

  that being a constant. So um, there's a sort of rebellion there, I think, that's needed, but all great things come from like upheaving the furniture. So I think that that is a piece of advice. I totally hear you and I so I I really do feel for you, I swear, because I I know the feeling.

• 39:48Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 39:49Speaker 01

  I just do.

• 39:49Elizabeth Day?

  All of this that you have so eloquently described, is it also partly why I've seen the artwork for White Lies and your face is obscured?

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 39:58Elizabeth Day?

  Is there a sort of turning away?

• 40:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm glad you picked that up.

• 40:02Elizabeth Day?

  I loved it, by the way.

• 40:03Speaker 01

  Thank you, mate. That so we, myself, Lois and Jack, who is um our photographer and videographer and is just amazing guy. Uh, we went on a trip basically to Georgia. So I I live half the time in Nashville. We've just moved there. So it's super exciting. Anyway, we stopped at this thrift shop. This place just had a pile of trash out the front of it, which immediately made me excited for what was in there because the stuff on the trash pile was quite good. It's the stuff that they'd sell like for way too much money in Nashville centre.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  So I was like, if they're throwing that in the bin, I want to see what they've got. So um, but yeah, they're just looking at the pile of rubbish made me think like about the upheaval of the furniture and the pulling the rug out from the past and um. And not discarding it, but just knowing that it was there and it's a time and that life is consistently moving and to stay stuck in the past is, well, Willie Nelson says you slow down, you go down. So stay in motion and keep, uh, keep moving. So, um, we took a picture of me essentially running away from it. And I think that that pile

• 41:17Speaker 01

  of rubbish, it sounds, uh, maybe like a bit too much of a diss, and I don't mean it as a diss, but is kind of us looking at the world in which we operated in, uh, in the industry for music in the last three years and what we're heading into, which is of course off screen and we don't know what it is, but it's in some open lush green field. And it's not, like I said, there's no shade being thrown here to people. It's infrastructure, not the people, because the people have come with us. The people that were, um, let go from their jobs after succeeding every single time, everything that came

• 42:00Speaker 01

  our way on that project, we passed with flying colors.

• 42:03Elizabeth Day?

  In short, what do you think the greatest flaw of the music industry as exists now is?

• 42:08Speaker 01

  I think it's lack of patience. Anything that's shiny and new, they run towards and then as soon as something else comes up, they get left in the lurch without give, being given the time to, um, to grow and develop and to, uh, do something outstanding and, and something that we see as valuable and, and precious and, uh, just magnetic is very quickly forgotten about. And that's not because those people aren't patient, it's because the, the nature of the industry isn't patient, so they can't afford to be patient because their jobs are on the line.

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• 43:51Elizabeth Day?

  Your final failure, which is linked to everything that we've been discussing, is not being around for family and friends so much.

• 43:59Speaker 01

  Yes, and I'm sure this is a popular one, right? But I very much, over the last few years, have known, like, known deep in my mind and my soul that I am living in the golden age of my life. That my grandfather is alive, God bless him. And my mum and dad are fit and healthy and able to wind down, not work their things to the bone as much anymore. Where my parents didn't know anything about music, they, and I love you mum, but...

• 44:34Elizabeth Day?

  Can they sing?

• 44:36Speaker 01

  Well, my mum actually doesn't have a bad voice at all. She'll be laughing when she hears it. But she could definitely join like a, like a village choir. That sounds so condescending.

• 44:46Elizabeth Day?

  So damning.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. But she definitely could if she wanted to. And I think she should because I think singing's just good for everything. But she, yeah, I hear her sing every now and then. She's got proper like Disney vibrato. You know, when like the birds are singing. Kind of that. But yeah, they didn't know anything about music. They couldn't help me in any way. I had no leg up into the industry whatsoever. And that's tough because so many people do, and I'm not chastising that whatsoever. We don't choose what we're born into, but it's tough when you have no entrance into it. You've got to make your own way. But they did everything they could to find other ways of helping me and my dad allowing me to come to work with him. And then a moment's notice be

• 45:32Speaker 01

  like, Dad, I need to take Thursday off because there's a gig that could be a really good opportunity for me. And he'll be like, no problem, go and do it, but be on Friday, you know, like, so they did everything they could to, you know, they've never, they wouldn't walk the mile for me, but they give me the shoes to do it. And so, yeah, like, I know very well that I'm in the golden age of my life. And that this has all come at a time where there'll be weeks where I can't see anyone because I'm in a different country. And I notice when I come home, my granddad looking

• 46:12Speaker 01

  older and, you know, he's ninety three, almost about to be ninety three. So it's just a fact of life. It's just happening, you know. And, um, yes, so there's a concern there. But then I just know that they understand at the same time. And that they saw me wait until this didn't happen to me till I was gone thirty. The amount of perseverance, I can't explain. When, when the, like, the fabric, the very nature and the fabric of the industry and society when it comes to the arts, if you're a singer or musician, I remember even, even years ago, it was like, if you don't make

• 46:56Speaker 01

  something by, you know, early twenties, just give up, find something else. So to, to hang in there that long, I couldn't have done it without them. And, yeah, I really. Can't express enough the amount of times that I failed and got knocked back, but found a way to dust myself off.

• 47:17Elizabeth Day?

  Hmm.

• 47:18Speaker 01

  And get back and just refuse. I just refuse to not achieve it. It can't happen. I will do it.

• 47:26Elizabeth Day?

  Do you want kids?

• 47:28Speaker 01

  I I just, I only wanna have kids if I can be a good dad and I I don't think I'm in the right space to be a dad as good as my dad was for me.

• 47:37Elizabeth Day?

  Really?

• 47:38Speaker 01

  You know what I mean? Because I I like, my dad is so incredible and everything that if if anyone ever says something kind about me and my personality, that I literally hear it as if they're saying to my mum and dad, nice one. Because that's why, like, they're just such amazing people. And my partner as well, like, I just, like, without Lois, without my parents, without my sisters, without my grandad and nothing. I I wouldn't have turned out in any way, um, would have been a just an idiot, you know, um, so I'm so thankful for them, but I know what it takes to, for them to have achieved that, to to

• 48:20Speaker 01

  to instill values in myself and my sisters. It takes presence and and time and I'm all over the place.

• 48:30Elizabeth Day?

  There's a song that I've listened to, which will be on your second album, Better Man.

• 48:35Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:35Elizabeth Day?

  Which is all about being loved by someone who sees you as better than you think you are. Is that about Lois and your family?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's that, that's like, the lyric is, uh, that's it, actually. You love me like I'm a better man and like, better than the one I think I am, you know, um. And yeah, it's completely about that.

• 49:02Elizabeth Day?

  Gear, gear change.

• 49:05Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 49:05Elizabeth Day?

  Who's the most exciting famous person you've met since this wild journey began?

• 49:11Speaker 01

  Oh, I met Brian Cox at the, um, the Oppenheimer.

• 49:18Elizabeth Day?

  Actor or scientist?

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Scientist. I would love to meet Brian Cox, he acted there as well, but he, in that setting was perfect.

• 49:26Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 49:26Speaker 01

  Like, he was so lovely. I met, I, I meet a lot of people just very much in passing, like Louis Theroux at the Brits the other night, and it's so lovely because they, I, I've given up a long time ago trying, being, letting myself be intimidated to go and say hello to someone. I feel like if someone came up out of the blue that I didn't know to say something nice to me, it would be the, just, um, accepted with, I would be stoked, put it that way. So in, in my mind now, if there's people that, you know, are quite intimidating characters,

• 50:06Speaker 01

  I just don't care. If I love their work, I'll, you know, sort of go and say hi to their security and then go and say hello to them and thank you for the work and that I'm a fan because I think it's really nice to, to say that. And, um, I've met a lot of lovely people through doing that and, uh, Stormzy for one, you must get him on your show.

• 50:27Elizabeth Day?

  I'm desperate. That's another one that I'd love to have.

• 50:29Speaker 01

  He, um, he says something great at the Brits, actually, read the psalm and just talking about, I think, the nature of forgiveness, if I read between the lines, like of what he was saying. And, um, that was really lovely.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  Uh, Brian May, uh, is a really wonderful character. His wife Anita, so lovely.

• 50:48Elizabeth Day?

  Have you met Dolly Parton?

• 50:50Speaker 01

  No, I would love to. I was actually listening to, um, her talking this morning. I, I sometimes, I'm a massive Dolly Parton fan, like the way she is kind of the supreme being, I think, of how to hold yourself, uh, in a, in a world where you are very blessed and privileged with what life has given you. I think she's amazing. Uh, you should try and get her on your.

• 51:13Elizabeth Day?

  I also want Dolly Parton. Let's put it out there. Let's put it into the universe.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  Totally, because she, yeah, like, there's amazing things that, um,

• 51:23Speaker 01

  That she'll see, I'm certain she would see how amazing this is.

• 51:29Elizabeth Day?

  I love you.

• 51:29Speaker 01

  I just, I really think she would.

• 51:31Elizabeth Day?

  Lovely.

• 51:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:32Elizabeth Day?

  I have to say, Sam, I, I could talk to you for hours. It's been a series of quiet and profound revelations, this conversation. I can't thank you enough. And you talk about wanting to be a better man, but, but for me, you're one of the best. You really are. And I'm so grateful that you've come on How To Fail. It's been amazing.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Thank you very much.

• 51:57Elizabeth Day?

  And I want, I want to go to a thrift shop in Kentucky with you.

• 52:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yeah, well, anytime, anytime you're in Nashville, I swear, come and let me know. You're welcome to stay at ours. We've got plenty of room and it's, if you like a rickety old kind of log cabin.

• 52:11Elizabeth Day?

  Yes.

• 52:12Speaker 01

  In the middle of the trees, it's the vibe.

• 52:14Elizabeth Day?

  That's exactly what I love.

• 52:15Speaker 01

  Definitely mean it. If you, if you get your podcast with Dolly and she won't travel, come and do it at the cabin.

• 52:23Elizabeth Day?

  It's a deal.

• 52:23Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 52:24Elizabeth Day?

  Sam Ryder, you've been effortlessly wonderful. You're going to stay for Fading With Friends, but for now, thank you so much for coming on.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Thank you very much. Appreciate you.

• 52:36Elizabeth Day?

  Please follow How To Fail to get new episodes as they land on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an Elizabeth Day and Sony Music Entertainment original podcast. Thank you so much for listening.