Winning QBs and Football Nerds With Mina Kimes, Plus Robert Redford’s Incredible Career With Brian Koppelman

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Mina Kimes to discuss various NFL topics two weeks into the season and some television shows (3:01). Then, Brian Koppelman joins the pod to remember the late movie star Robert Redford (01:08:01). Host: Bill Simmons Guests: Mina Kimes and Brian Koppelman Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Steve Ceruti The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit⁠⁠ www.rg-help.com⁠⁠ to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  I'm pro football Hall of Famer Brian Dawkins, and I lived for a long time with something I did not know the name of: major depressive disorder. I carried sadness and anger because I thought I could handle it alone, but I couldn't. Now I want to make sure others know that that support is out there. If you're experiencing similar symptoms, talk to a healthcare professional. Visit MDDAllies.com to watch my story.

• 0:25Speaker 01

  Paid partnership with Johnson & Johnson. Brian Dawkins has not prescribed Caplyta lumateperone.

• 0:37Speaker 02

  I needed more from my antidepressant, so my doctor added Caplyta lumateperone, proven to provide greater relief from depression symptoms than an antidepressant alone, building on my progress without starting over. Caplyta is for adults with major depressive disorder when used with an antidepressant and is available by prescription only. Individual results may vary. In clinical trials, weight gain was not common.

• 0:57Speaker 01

  Elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. Caplyta is not approved for dementia-related psychosis. Call your doctor about new or sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts right away. Antidepressants may increase these risks. Report fever, confusion, stiff muscles, which may be life-threatening, or uncontrolled muscle movements, which may be permanent. High cholesterol and weight gain may occur, as can high blood sugar, which may be fatal. Monitoring is recommended. Common side effects are sleepiness, dizziness, nausea, dry mouth, feeling tired, and diarrhea. These aren't all the side effects.

• 1:24Speaker 02

  Ask your doctor about Caplyta. Learn more at caplyta.com or call 888-252-4824.

• 1:30Bill Simmons?

  The Bill Simmons Podcast brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook. We are also brought to you by The Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables. We did, um, what did we do? Oh, Tin Cup. Yeah. It was me and Joe House and Craig Horlbeck. We taped it last month. We dressed like golfers. My buddy Jacko was in town. We made him the executive producer, and he had a mic. He was chiming in. Great times all around. Really fun movie. It's aged nicely. Still can't believe the ending. In the theater when it happened, it was just like, why did they end the movie this way? And now 30 years later, kind of like it. Anyway, you can find that on the Ringer

• 2:09Bill Simmons?

  Movies YouTube channel, or as a video podcast on Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Prestige TV, I'm on there talking about Task every week with Joanna Robinson and Rob Mahoney as well. If you like that show, and you should, because you're, if you're watching this podcast, you probably like television, and this is a very good television show. So you can find me on there. Coming up on this podcast, old friend Mina Kimes dropped by to talk a lot of different NFL subplots as we have finished two weeks of the NFL season. And then Robert Redford died today. Unbelievable. So I got Brian Koppelman, another longtime friend, to talk about his career and some of the lessons from it. So that's the podcast

• 2:54Bill Simmons?

  today. We're going to take a break, and then we're going to Pearl Jam, and then Mina Kimes, NFL, next. It's the Bill Simmons Podcast, presented by FanDuel, and the NFL is back, and thank God. FanDuel has everything. They got an awesome app. They have SGPs. They have great futures. They have good prop bets, live betting, your way bets, clean app. It's great to use. Been using it for a few years. Every time I go back to Boston, or any place that has FanDuel, and I get to use it, I'm always excited. I'm on an airplane runway. You done the airplane runway? Yeah, everybody. Airplane runway? There should be a button, the runway. I'm on the airplane runway. I gotta get this in. Get your bets in, build something bold, make every game feel bigger. Download the FanDuel app, or head to FanDuel.com/BS

• 3:39Bill Simmons?

  to get started. The Ringer, committed to responsible gaming, please visit RG-help.com to learn more about the resources and help lines available, and listen to the end of this episode for additional details. You must be 21 plus and present in select states, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, or visit RG-help.com. Call 1-888-797-777, or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut, paid endorsement.

• 4:32Bill Simmons?

  All right, I am recording this. It is mid afternoon on the East Coast. Mina Kimes is on the West Coast. We got TV Mina today because she's doing TV later. We were texting last night. I was groggy, watching two Monday Night Football games in a row. Raiders Chargers going on forever. Gino is just sailing, passes all over the place. And we were texting and I was like, we should do a pod. We haven't done a pod in a while. Good to see you. Hope all is well. Everything good?

• 4:57Speaker 04

  You know, aside from Gino having a bit of a meltdown, it's kind of brave for me to come on, by the way, after a Gino clunker. We had a support group meeting this morning. Steven Ruiz called it. Everybody was in attendance. We've all agreed to settle on the Chargers defense is elite defense.

• 5:17Bill Simmons?

  I can't get there with that one. I just think Gino does that

• 5:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 5:20Bill Simmons?

  once a year, twice a year. You just kind of know it's like a child melting down in an airplane. You just kind of know it's going to happen at some point.

• 5:27Speaker 04

  The weirdest part for me was the misses, because like the interceptions, you know, there's an arm punt and he's always going to attempt tight window throws. Sometimes he shouldn't. But the misses downfield, there were a few of them, were pretty uncharacteristic. I really do think the Chargers defense is elite, though. Are you not? I was joking about the excuse, but are you not there yet with them?

• 5:48Bill Simmons?

  No, I thought they showed what they needed to show yesterday, but I thought Gino left a bunch of stuff on the table, especially in the second half. Like he had Bowers, when they were driving, it seemed at least they were getting back to recovery. He had Bowers over the middle a couple of times. He was sailing balls high, throwing balls into triple coverage. It was just, you lived through this as a Seahawks fan. This is just kind of what he does. And I think maybe their destiny is just... Twice this year, they're gonna beat a really good team. They're gonna have a game like last week against the Pats and then they're just gonna have stinkers and they're gonna be all over the place.

• 6:21Speaker 04

  A little bit of salty after watching the Pats get beat down by him. No, I think you're right. I also, I also think what really jumped out is if Bowers isn't 100% and he's clearly not, they just do not have the horses at wide receiver to compete. As much as I love Jacoby Myers and especially with a quarterback like Gino, who's gonna give your receiver a chance in one on ones. It just felt like they had, they, the receivers were not winning against, again, an exceptionally well coached and talented Chargers secondary.

• 6:51Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna whisper this because it's not a take. Gentey seems small in that game yesterday and I know that's part of the package. He's a little guy and we've seen a lot of little guys succeed, but you know, that Chargers, a big physical defense and it just, it, it was notable. I don't know, I'm not gonna overreact to it yet. I am gonna overreact to a couple of the topics that we, we have. I sent you some questions. I'm excited to hit some of these, especially the last one. But as, as the queen of the football nerds, I think that's your official title. What is the nerdiest football nerd thing percolating right now? That's bringing out your full football nerd two weeks in.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  This isn't actually that nerdy per se, but a thing that I am obsessed with and Dan Orlovsky and I talked about this before the season. We did like an offensive trends part pod is just the number of teams that are almost measuring in two tight end offenses. Right now, just through the first two weeks of the season, offenses have used two tight as 12 personnel 25% of the time, which is the highest ever. Like that's a historic rate. Even five, six years ago, it was way less than that. And I think there's like a number of reasons for that, but it's like the really good teams as well. Right? Green Bay with Tucker Craft, obviously the Ravens are a good example. Arizona has Trey McBride, Bowers when he's healthy.

• 8:15Speaker 04

  So there's really, really good tight ends now, but I also think it's a product of just how defense has gone over the last 10 years or so, getting lighter, playing more sub packages. So offenses, this is kind of part of offenses pushing back. And it's been fun to watch because I think these tight ends are really good, really, really talented.

• 8:31Bill Simmons?

  Do you think that's why, I haven't seen the numbers one way or the other, but do you think this is why scoring feels down a little bit, even though offense seems as competent as ever? Because we have more 12 stuff and longer drives versus like the explosive stuff?

• 8:48Speaker 04

  I don't know if scoring is down, but as far as like the explosive thing, that's like a multi-year trend for sure. I mean, I mentioned the Chargers. I think that's kind of, they're kind of a good microcosm for why that might be happening or why defenses have gotten so good at limiting explosives. I mean, through two games, Chargers are allowing three air yards per attempt, which is granted, you know, you have the Chiefs, but as you saw week one, the Raiders can bomb it and they just kept everything in front of them. They tackle so well, they communicate so well. And like the best defenses, the Chargers, the Packers, the Eagles, I think you saw them bounce back. They're just really good at keeping everything in front of them and tackling that way.

• 9:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, the other thing with the 12 personnel I've noticed, you mentioned a bunch of tight ends when you were listing the good ones, and we have a lot of good ones. And we also have a lot of good second tier, good tight ends. I like that guy in the Jaguars, Strange. I think he's good. There's, it feels like there's like 12 of those guys.

• 9:48Speaker 04

  And he can block too. Like, so that's the other thing about the 12 personnel. It really only works so if you're going against these lighter bodied defenses and who don't have, you know, they're, they've gone in that direction over the last few years to stop high-powered passing attacks. This goes back to the Pats and them changing football in that way. If you want to be able to take advantage of mismatches, you really do have to at least be a threat to run. So you have to have at least one tight end who can block so that when you're on the field, if defenses come out lights, cool, we're going to use our big guys and just run the ball down your throats in nickel or dime, right? Strange is one of them was, like, he can block. You're already seeing that Kraft in Green Bay is another great example of that. Such a good blocker. He's like such a throwback tight end to me. And I think you're seeing a few of those guys around the league right now.

• 10:33Speaker 04

  And this year, I mean, good God, Tyler Warren, have you been watching?

• 10:38Bill Simmons?

  So that I think if you're just redoing the draft or criticizing the Hunter thing is, I think has a chance to be a real disaster just for what they gave up on him. I'm not saying where he went in the draft as much as all the assets they give up. But Chicago not taking Tyler Warren, when people for most of the college football season, then leading up to the draft process were like Tyler Warren, he's going to be fucking awesome. He's the best tight end. And then there was this weird late surge from Loveland. And then the Bears take Loveland and he falls to the Colts at 14, which is like him falling to 14 and a Booker falling to 19 feels like a miracle now, but Warren's just like a beast. Jesus.

• 11:19Speaker 04

  Warren like to you're, you're completely right. I think everybody kind of overthought it. And I also think he passes the, could a person who's never watched football put on a game and immediately say that's the best player on the field, watching him in college. Because he just took over games and did everything, obviously there was wildcatting, yards after the catch. He often was the entire offense and in retrospect, it does feel a little silly that they not, he took over games against elite competition. Of course he's awesome, but yeah, I think people, I, I, I'm not out on Loveland entirely. I don't think he's even like top 10 in the reasons why that offense is struggling right now. But yeah, Tyler Warren just looks like a superstar to me.

• 12:01Bill Simmons?

  I did a lot of work on him when I threw myself into the draft casual college football fan, Bill, but I think in the Pats might trade back like two, three spots.

• 12:10Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 12:10Bill Simmons?

  And then we're going to be in that Mason Graham, Tyler Warren thing. And I was like, if we got this guy, this guy's very Gronkish. I would never compare anyone and just say that's the next Gronk because there will never be another Gronk. But there was some Gronk vicinity stuff he was doing. It's a Colts had to be delighted. He's like perfect for them.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  He looks amazing. Are you feeling better about missing out on Hunter? You talked about Hunter and getting Will Campbell through two weeks.

• 12:37Bill Simmons?

  I want a Carter. I mean, I think Carter was the prize.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Yeah. All right.

• 12:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I would, I would have.

• 12:44Bill Simmons?

  I never, the Hunter thing, I don't like things that I haven't seen before. Just in anything, in any capacity in life. Like technology, when there's some like new car that came out or some new iPhone that they've created out of thin air. I'm like, I kind of want to see it work before I know it's gonna.

• 13:01Speaker 04

  It's a beast on football games.

• 13:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, just I'm saying Hunter, who did this in college, is now going to do this in the pros for 17 games a year against the biggest, strongest, best athletes we have in the world. I was just a little dubious.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  The thing that really, I feel like maybe was underplayed too during the offseason was most NFL players were dubious of it. Like there were all these quotes from

• 13:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 13:23Speaker 04

  actual players on both sides of the ball who were kind of skeptical of it. And it's way too early, obviously, to come up with. But he has not been, made the impact you would like to see from a guy drafted that high. And you do wonder if the demands on him are too much at this point in his career. I, I think it's a completely legitimate question.

• 13:47Bill Simmons?

  On our Ringer Fantasy Football show, the guys were joking that he's expensive Wondell Robinson. And then decided it was actually an insult to Wondell Robinson. Cause Wondell Robinson was really good this last week. And he was like, if Travis Hunter could be as good as Wondell Robinson. I think the prototype for me, cause when the, when the Pats were doing this, Edelman in the mid 2000s, they were using him as like this nickel dime back. And then as a receiver and he was playing both sides, but there was less responsibility on the defense. And I think that's kind of where this would have to go. Where you're basically just covering slot guys or you're in playing a zone in one area on one side. And then you're just doing a receiver stuff.

• 14:26Speaker 04

  It never made sense to me that somebody would just play a little bit of corner. I actually thought the reverse made more sense, right?

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  Like just his full-time corner with like a little receiver?

• 14:35Speaker 04

  Yeah, you bring him in on maybe like for big plays or in the red zone or on screens. If that's what you want to use him, the way you want to use him. But I thought like, it's so hard to play cornerback in the NFL. You have to study so many things, not just scheme, like individual players tendencies. It's, it's tricky. So yeah, it might look better much later on than it does earlier. And I think that's completely within the realm of possibility for Travis Hunter.

• 15:01Bill Simmons?

  Well, after he probably looked at the king of the hospital balls, Trevor Lawrence, for a couple of months, he's probably like, I should play defense. Defense looks great. I don't have to go across the middle with some ball sailing over my head and two safeties targeting me.

• 15:15Speaker 04

  One of your other questions kind of hit on the divisive, well, I'll let you set it up.

• 15:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 15:20Speaker 04

  Lawrence isn't even divisive at this point though, right? It feels like people are pretty critical of him.

• 15:25Bill Simmons?

  He deserves all the criticism. Just play well and do well in the red zone. Just, just fix those two things. Don't sail balls into traffic and hurt your receivers and don't screw up in the red zone. I'm going to give you a part, I, I think I count as a partial nerd.

• 15:39Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course.

• 15:41Bill Simmons?

  I was doing a lot of DBOA stuff back in the day. I was having air shots on the pod.

• 15:47Bill Simmons?

  I think this kickoff thing is nuts. And I don't know how nerdy of a topic this or just a football thing, but it feels like.

• 15:54Speaker 04

  The Indiana kickoff.

• 15:56Bill Simmons?

  If 52 year old Belichick was coaching right now, not North Carolina, near the tail end, dating a 26 year old Belichick. I think he would have spent so much time on this kickoff thing and felt like this was the greatest inefficiency to exploit. We're seeing kickoff returns all the time. We're seeing the way, the way people actually kick the ball off, like with these angles and stuff. I just think he would have absolutely loved it. And I think it's had a dramatic difference. Like somebody kicked the ball in the end zone last night in the first game. And it was like, the ball goes out to the 35. It's like the 35, like that's.

• 16:31Speaker 04

  I know.

• 16:31Bill Simmons?

  We're just kicking out of bounds and put it in the 40 at that point. But I, I was surprised how impactful it was. What about you?

• 16:37Speaker 04

  It's completely impactful. You're getting way more returns, which is what they, it was interesting how much just that five yard tweak affected the return rate, right? Because last year, a lot of coaches were like, screw it, let's just kick it in the end zone. And this year, you know, 35 is just too, it's just such a difference. It's just five yards, but there's such a difference, especially with these kickers, right? Who are banging it from 60 right now. You don't even have to go that far to put up points on the board.

• 17:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Dallas is in field goal position with one first down.

• 17:05Speaker 04

  That was crazy when they ran the draw to just set him up for 64 yards.

• 17:11Bill Simmons?

  Oh my God. I've never seen anything like that. The Givante to the left for four yards.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  Back to the kickoff though. Are you pro or are you aligned with the president here? Who's very, he seems very upset about the kickoff.

• 17:26Bill Simmons?

  He was, he called, what did he call it? Sissy football?

• 17:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, which is not actually, dare I have an opinion on this. You're seeing more collisions and more actions. So it's not more, it's, you can say it's weird, but it's certainly not.

• 17:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, sissy is not the, yeah, I wouldn't have used that, that phrase, but I think they overdid it. And, and next year they'll unwind it back, but I think it's too much of an advantage now, but I like the spirit of it. I thought it sucked watching kickoffs. Wasn't fun. It was like, oh, cool. The guy downed in the end zone again. Now it's, now you don't want to miss it. You don't want to go to the bathroom if there's going to be a kickoff, especially with certain teams. But I think just taking it to the 35 is, at that point, here's the thing. This is where the Larry David rule of let's just get rid of field goal kickers would make this more interesting. If we had the kickoff rule combined with no field goals for the first three quarters of the game or something.

• 18:24Bill Simmons?

  Then it's like, okay, they started 35, but they still have to go 65 to score. Now I'm a little more, now the balance feels better, but they'll never do that.

• 18:32Speaker 04

  I feel like in 10 years, not even 20, they're going to look back. People who started watching football now or even recently, and they'll, they'll be in disbelief that it was ever done the other way. That it was just a, you know, touchback city. I actually like field goals. I think it gets maligned because it's not really football and it's soccer players and whatever. And how many teams have been felled by, you know, being great teams that have bad kickers. But I think it adds like a level of, it's one of the many things that adds a level of drama to NFL games that is kind of unmatched.

• 19:06Bill Simmons?

  What if I gave you a limit? You could only kick four field goals in a game.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  That I don't, that would be so funny to watch the amount of mistakes that coaches manage.

• 19:16Bill Simmons?

  Just trying to figure it out or setting up a field goal and not realize they already passed the limit for it. I was thinking about that with the Colts game that would have been a fun wrinkle. I was like, well, they can't kick their fifth.

• 19:27Speaker 04

  Oh, my God.

• 19:27Bill Simmons?

  Cause they've already kicked four.

• 19:28Speaker 04

  Right.

• 19:29Bill Simmons?

  They're gonna have to go for this. That's more fun.

• 19:31Speaker 04

  Use up your field goals. I actually like that idea.

• 19:34Bill Simmons?

  Bonus topic. I didn't send this one to you.

• 19:37Speaker 04

  Oh, boy.

• 19:38Bill Simmons?

  It's just became a story today and I, I always judge it by if I'm getting texts about something from random people in my life, then that must mean something's happening. Tom Brady is this cheating that he's in the Fox booth, but then also you've done these games. I've done the basketball version of it where you get to meet the coach and talk about the players. It's a little overrated. It's not like they're like, here's our game plan. It's more stuff like, we really like, we really like Tucker Kraft. He's been, he's been a pleasant surprise. It's not, here's our game plan, but what do you think of Tom Brady being able to do this?

• 20:14Speaker 04

  I am a little surprised by how upset people are about the competitive integrity side of it.

• 20:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 20:21Speaker 04

  Because of what you said. So obviously preseason gives a very different, but I was kind of asked, I asked Dan last night, like, so have you ever really gotten something in a production meeting where you felt like, whoa, I can't believe they're telling us this. And no, you're, you're right. It's pretty mundane stuff. So I don't feel like he's compromising, like he has a fair advantage for his team. I think if, if anyone should be bothered by it, I suppose it would be the perception of bias in the booth, maybe from a media perspective. If you feel like, if anything, I think he's probably going to go out of his way to be like nice to divisional opponents when he's calling games. That would be my guess, but yeah, I don't, I don't really see the edge. It's, I think it bothers people because it's not because of the substance of it, but because

• 21:04Speaker 04

  of the appearance of just like, oh, he's above the rules. Right? Like, of course, Tom Brady gets allowed to do it. I don't think the actual substance of it is that bad.

• 21:13Bill Simmons?

  I agree with you. I remember I did a, I announced a Lakers game when Mike D'Antoni was the coach. And it's not like he was telling us a lot, but what you do get is the vibe of the coach about his team. Cause they feel more comfortable, right? You're coming into their space.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Right.

• 21:29Bill Simmons?

  And he didn't, his team wasn't good. He couldn't have been more candid about that off the record. So you just kind of absorb that and be like, ah, he doesn't think his team's very good. But then if they mention a player, like, I'm really excited about this guy. He's made big strides. You're like, okay, you file that away. And then when you're talking about the game, you're like, Mike. And that's how you hear that. When we talked to Mike before, he told us he really liked how so and so was, was playing. You're not getting, they might tell you one thing, like Collinsworth will be like, they told us they were gonna try that before the game. Right? Some sort of double pass or something.

• 22:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, right.

• 22:03Bill Simmons?

  Other than that, they're not giving you a game strategy. Like, we think we can throw with the Chargers over the middle. They're never telling an announcer that.

• 22:09Speaker 04

  How often does they really like this guy from the summer, like, pan out to?

• 22:15Bill Simmons?

  Right. Well, that, with the Pats with Booty, they were doing that all summer. And then, yeah, then he actually like, they throw to him and he makes plays. So that, that wasn't a lie.

• 22:26Speaker 04

  Yeah, they kept telling me, not they, anyone in the Patriots, but my friends who cover that team kept saying, he's the X receiver in this offense. And I was really skeptical of it, but through two weeks, he definitely looks like the X receiver. I thought the, the, uh, he felt like a back shoulder ball in this last game was really impressive.

• 22:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, the thing with him was he was a first round pick for a while and then he had some off the field stuff and it knocked him down. And a lot of times in football, those guys, somebody takes a flyer on them, you keep your fingers crossed. Then there's like the Jalen Carter situation where they just fall a couple picks. But for the most part, it's a Jack Jones thing where the guy starts just bouncing around. But they actually seemed like they might've, might've lucked out with him. All right. So we both agree, not a big deal, this Tom Brady thing. Yeah.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  I get why people don't like it. I just am not that worked up about the competitive part of it.

• 23:17Bill Simmons?

  How excited can I be for Drake May right now, two games into the season on a scale of one to 10?

• 23:22Speaker 04

  Did we make it 20 minutes before you brought up?

• 23:25Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna do a break. I thought this would be a quick, quick appetizer before the bigger topic we have.

• 23:29Speaker 04

  Uh, he looked really good this weekend. The Miami Dolphins tax, or I guess benefit, certain, whatever the opposite of a tax is, is real. That defense is god awful.

• 23:42Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they can pass rush on third and eight. That's about it.

• 23:45Speaker 04

  It's weird how bad the pass rush is because that was supposed to be the good part of the team, right? We knew that they had a horrible secondary, but like the pass rush was supposed to be good. Um, he made some really impressive throws in this game. The throw to Stevenson on third down, one of the best throws of his career, just on the money. By the way, amazing catch, too. Stevenson's really good. Um, I was really encouraged watching the offense just like as a whole, not just May, because I felt like week one against the Raiders, it didn't feel like, felt like they didn't quite have an identity and they weren't, it was Josh McDaniels, right? And him kind of feeling each other out. Um, it was, I thought, too much on May's shoulders. This one, it felt like, okay, we're really building the play action passing attack down. We've got the power running game

• 24:28Speaker 04

  that has been kind of McDaniels' hallmark and May was hitting almost everything off of it. So I think that marriage is going to be key to whether or not this works out. I am lower on the Pats than you. I, I think, uh, that pass defense is pretty concerning to me, uh, but.

• 24:44Bill Simmons?

  Well, we don't have all our guys yet, Mina.

• 24:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, no Christian Gonzalez is pretty massive.

• 24:48Bill Simmons?

  Not only no Christian Gonzalez, no, no word on Christian Gonzalez.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  What's up with that?

• 24:53Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 24:54Speaker 04

  That one stuck up on me. I didn't even, the season started and it was like Christian Gonzalez isn't playing.

• 24:58Bill Simmons?

  Is he in Massachusetts? Is he in America? Where is he? He got hurt in, end of July. Yeah, but that's, we've seen some cornerbacks go down this year. I mean, the Bears, the Bears are in a situation.

• 25:09Speaker 04

  Brutal.

• 25:10Bill Simmons?

  Right now. Um, it's still going. All right. We're gonna take a quick break and then. I have a big QB thing for you. Love it. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Football fans, every NFL Thursday is your chance to hit the jackpot on FanDuel because of FanDuel's Thursday Touchdown Jackpot. You can win a share of $2 million in bonus bets this week. Get in on Thursday. I have three plays in any time touchdown score a bet before the game, before the Dolphins and Bills kickoff. And if your player scores the first or last three of the game, you win your bet plus a share of bonus bets. I almost hit this last week. I gave you Tucker Kraft. He did score and then there was a touchdown right after and I missed it. I'm giving you James Cook this week. I liked how he looked against the Jets. He looked super fast.

• 25:53Bill Simmons?

  Miami especially getting maybe the cheap touchdown to cement the game when it's 38 to 10 Buffalo. James Cook is my pick this Thursday. Any play can be your play of the game with FanDuel. FanDuel.com/BS for your chance to win a share of $2 million in bonus bets. Play your game with FanDuel, an official sports betting partner of the NFL. Must be 21 plus, present in select states or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Opt in, must apply profit boost token on select market. Prize pool to be split equally among all eligible participants who made the correct first or last TD pick. Bonus issued as non-withdrawable bonus bets. Bets expire 21 days after receipt. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com.

• 26:38Bill Simmons?

  Call 1-888-789-777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket, my friend. NFL Sundays are back. You won't want to miss the action. NFL Sunday Ticket and YouTube TV, another friend of mine, lets you catch every game, every Sunday, all in one place. And now, get NFL Sunday Ticket month to month and cancel anytime. Head to youtube.com/BS and sign up now. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games excludes digital only games and commercial use. If you cancel YouTube TV, you will lose access to NFL Sunday Ticket. Terms of bargos, device and content restrictions apply. Commercial use excluded. Renews every month during the 2025 regular season. Cancel anytime. All right, QB appetizer question.

• 27:24Bill Simmons?

  Why can't we admit that Josh and Lamar are the two best regular season quarterbacks that we have? Why are we still holding on to this Mahomes thing when it's three long balls over people's heads and they're scoring 21 points a game now for, this will be your three.

• 27:38Speaker 04

  I think with Mahomes, it feels like trying to catch a falling knife where nobody wants to like just completely miss it, right? The timing of it and also

• 27:54Speaker 04

  it is so obvious that his circumstances are so much worse. I know he overthrew a couple deep balls and he has not been connecting that.

• 28:06Speaker 04

  Well, the thing about deep balls though is like you don't, it requires like pass protection has to hold up. The guy has to be in the right place. He's throwing it. Bill, it's Ty Quan Thornton is their number one deep threat.

• 28:17Bill Simmons?

  They have two guys we waved.

• 28:19Speaker 04

  Yeah. So there's your answer. It's Ty Quan Thornton. I mean, it's, it's just,

• 28:26Speaker 04

  and I, Josh Lamar, the two best quarterbacks in football right now, I don't disagree with you. I'm just trying to answer your question. Those guys both have dominant rushing attacks and really good offensive lines. And they don't have world beaters, but they have good pass catching options.

• 28:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 28:41Speaker 04

  I mean, Mahomes is like, where would you rank his situation right now as a quarterback around the NFL? Everything, run game, offensive line, skill players.

• 28:49Bill Simmons?

  I know, but Brady was in this situation, six years in his career, in his prime.

• 28:54Speaker 04

  There it is.

• 28:55Bill Simmons?

  He, it's true. We, we had the famous Rashad Caldwell year, Rashad Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney as with Benjamin Watson as the tight end. Like it was, that was the word. We almost won the Super Bowl that year with that.

• 29:08Speaker 04

  Caldwell's the one who went to, had a weird crime, right? Am I misremembering that?

• 29:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, very possible. Well, his, his big crime was the AFC title game. For Pats fans.

• 29:20Speaker 04

  Okay. But it was bad last year and he went to the goddamn Super Bowl. That's why nobody wants to call it on Mahomes because last year we were calling it and he freaking beat the, went to the end.

• 29:33Bill Simmons?

  I just think there's two different conversations. One is who would you want for one game or one quarter? And then one is who would you want for a season? And at this point, he's just, I don't even. I mean, it's Allen and Lamar for MVP and Jordan Love if they win 14 to 15 games. Herbert is like a dark horse now. But I don't see a scenario Mahomes is going to be in that conversation with the team he has.

• 29:57Speaker 04

  If they do, does any part of you believe if Mahomes was on those other two teams that those offenses wouldn't be dominant?

• 30:05Bill Simmons?

  Well, so this is a great question because this is one of my MVP things that I do for NBA where if you just flip the guys, what happens?

• 30:14Bill Simmons?

  If Allen was on the Chiefs, they would not be worse. I'll just say that. And I think there's some stuff that would happen, at least for the regular season, that would not be worse. Lamar is an interesting one because, you know, they have this amazing running situation with the line and with Henry. I think they know what their offense is with him completely. So if you just like transferred that, I think it would be a little clumsy. But I just think Josh is the best guy in the league and that this is why I picked them in the Super Bowl. I can't believe I bet against them last week with fucking Jets. I'm still mad at myself. But I think he's going to get one. I just really, not to do like shitty sports content, but I just think he's going to get one. He's too good.

• 30:59Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's like, it's like Jokic, Giannis in the NBA. Like, I don't see how he doesn't win a Super Bowl at some point.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  I think the Bills and the Ravens are just so in a tier on their own right now in the AFC. So you could be either of those guys and it would be completely believable to me.

• 31:16Speaker 04

  I just think with Mahomes, like, okay, so the other question I asked, who's got it worse? Who's got it worse?

• 31:21Bill Simmons?

  Which one?

• 31:21Speaker 04

  A quarterback. Tell me which quarterback is in a worse situation right now in terms of like the infrastructure around them?

• 31:27Bill Simmons?

  But as part of that infrastructure though, you have to count in, I've had the same offense for eight years. I've had the same coaching situation and the same everything. Like that matters a little bit. There's some sort of stability with it.

• 31:40Speaker 04

  Is the run game good? I mean, I would not slander Andy Reid. He is still one of the best coaches in the NFL, but like. Let me, let me kind of dumb it down. Is there an offense that's less pleasant to watch right now?

• 31:56Bill Simmons?

  No, only the Eagles, just because the Eagles actually have some talent. It is, it's funny though, that he's replicating this weird stretch of Brady's career where he was so good that they just felt like they could throw away the talent at all these, you know, seemingly important offensive positions. And it like their running backs are terrible. There's not a single running back that you think can even bust a 10 yard run at this point.

• 32:20Speaker 04

  That's if I had to criticize them for like a roster perspective, that would, that's the one thing that jumps out to me because, you know, we can't kind of talk about both sides of our mouth, pardon me, and criticize the Bengals for not investing at all in their offensive line and paying these two great receivers, but then also say, well, the Chiefs chose to focus on the trenches and not receiver and not their skill players. You know, that it's a different strategy. The running backs thing though, to me, like you can, you can find a cool running back in the fifth round, right? Like, why not try?

• 32:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 32:51Speaker 04

  I harder in the mid rounds, I would have drafted someone, I don't know. It looks, the whole run game right now looks so bad.

• 33:00Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's at an interesting point in his career because.

• 33:04Speaker 04

  He is.

• 33:04Bill Simmons?

  You know, I, I do think he's been passed and by those guys, at least from a week to week, just when you're watching football. He just seems like he's less impactful than some of these other guys and more in that like Jordan Love area, which for somebody that we were saying had a chance to be the best guy of all time, lost a little momentum. So I'm just, I'm monitoring it. Anyway, uh, how many 2025 QBs? In your mind can conceivably win a 2025 playoff game? And Mahomes is definitely one of them and so is Allen and Lamar and so is Jalen Hurts, who just won the Super Bowl and so is, I think Jordan Love has to be there just because his team's so good. I'd be shocked if they didn't win a playoff game. So there's five.

• 33:49Bill Simmons?

  Would you still put Stafford on the list from what you've seen from him physically?

• 33:52Speaker 04

  Oh my God, yes. Oh, he is like making some of the best throws of any quarterback early on. He looks unbelievable.

• 34:00Bill Simmons?

  I have him as well. There's six. Goff has to be on there because he's won playoff games. Ironically, Mayfield is a hundred percent on there and you saw again last night. Like not only has he won playoff games, not only has that team been successful. But you know, they could go down five with two minutes left. I'm like, I feel like they're gonna win. I just, I believe in that dude, right? He pulls out that big fourth and 10, but it's crazy that that guy got waved twice.

• 34:27Speaker 04

  I know.

• 34:27Bill Simmons?

  And is now is reliable. You must love him.

• 34:30Speaker 04

  I love watching him. I love watching that offense. I mean, the combination of backs, Bucky Irving and Rashad White. They basically halted that thing away and behind, you know, they had like a center playing left tackle. They lost the right tackle going up against one of the best defenses in all of football. And they were grinding them down, Irving in the catch game as well. But yeah, I think Bayfield's definitely in that category. Jane Daniels, did you mention them already?

• 34:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I had the next two I had were Purdy and Daniels, just because they've both done it. So there's nine. There's nine guys we think can conceivably win a 2025 playoff game. Now we get, now the fun part starts.

• 35:07Bill Simmons?

  Justin Herbert.

• 35:08Speaker 04

  Well, you left out Dak. I would put Dak in there, too.

• 35:10Bill Simmons?

  I didn't get to him yet.

• 35:12Speaker 04

  Oh, so sorry. You're in, you're, that was one tier. Okay, we're in, now we're in the debate here. Okay.

• 35:18Bill Simmons?

  It's the debate here. Justin Herbert.

• 35:21Speaker 04

  Hundred percent. Yes.

• 35:23Bill Simmons?

  I think I have him too.

• 35:25Speaker 04

  Hundred percent.

• 35:25Bill Simmons?

  But I mean, this was a side sidebar question, but he's now the most polarizing quarterback of this decade. I think Dak had the title for a couple of years and now Herbert just has it because people are so passionate about it.

• 35:37Speaker 04

  You think, because I feel like that the week one against Kansas City was such a strong showing. He was so good in that game. It felt like the divide, like if it was 60 pro, 40 anti, anti Herbert. I feel like it moved to 70, 30 after that game.

• 35:54Bill Simmons?

  Well, because there's the potential camp.

• 35:58Bill Simmons?

  And the, I see things that, once this team is better and it, and then there's just like the results camp, which was where I was more in. It's like, okay, well, if he's one of the seven best guys in the league, can he win a playoff game? Can he do this consistently? Let's see it. Let's see him win 12 games. Yesterday, he's awesome. For two and a half quarters.

• 36:20Bill Simmons?

  And then he kind of slipped back into the other Justin Herbert for the fourth quarter and did some weird stuff, had some bad throws, should have gotten picked once. Kept trying to have the Raiders hang around in that game and

• 36:31Speaker 04

  Few things.

• 36:31Bill Simmons?

  I was like, man, you had us.

• 36:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, they they kind of chargers a little bit in that one.

• 36:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, they did.

• 36:38Speaker 04

  But I think the defense is so good that there's like a floor for this team right now.

• 36:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 36:45Speaker 04

  I also like the way he's playing this year. He's scrambling way more. He's a little feisty out there. He's

• 36:50Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:51Speaker 04

  Um, Herbert's a no doubter for me. Can win a playoff game.

• 36:55Bill Simmons?

  I think he's won me over, at least for winning one playoff game. Dak Prescott, who's never won a playoff game? Has he won a playoff game?

• 37:02Speaker 04

  He dude, he put up one of the all, he destroyed the Bucks in the wild card round. I was there that year.

• 37:08Bill Simmons?

  That's right. He's won a wild card game. He's never made gotten past round one though, right?

• 37:13Speaker 04

  Um, no.

• 37:14Bill Simmons?

  I think that's what it is.

• 37:14Speaker 04

  Yeah, he's never won gotten past that.

• 37:16Bill Simmons?

  I have him on the list.

• 37:18Speaker 04

  The Niners team lead.

• 37:18Bill Simmons?

  There's This now gets really interesting.

• 37:23Bill Simmons?

  Forty-two-year-old Aaron Rodgers.

• 37:26Speaker 04

  I don't think so.

• 37:28Bill Simmons?

  I'm out as well. I think it's a just a no. Did you see what he looked like when they're, well, of course you did. It was your team.

• 37:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 37:36Bill Simmons?

  When they're actually pressuring him, it was not good.

• 37:39Speaker 04

  So

• 37:41Speaker 04

  there's, he still is capable of making some of the most impressive throws off platform you'll see, right? Like, and you see them kind of go viral the next week. But the consistency when he has to hold the ball for more than two and a half seconds is simply not there. That is, um, and I think

• 37:59Bill Simmons?

  I will say he's moving a little better than I was expecting this season. I think he looks better this year than last year. There's no question.

• 38:04Speaker 04

  He made some really impressive throws on the run in this game. But for me, when I say I don't see them winning a playoff game, it's about the team. It's not just Aaron. So if you have a quarterback who's He can still make some really impressive throws. He's still really good on quick game. You saw that in week one against what looks like a pretty bad Jets defense. Okay, you can win that way, but you gotta be able to run the football. You need more than one playmaker and you need a good defense. And holy smokes, that defense looks really bad the first two weeks of this, which kind of shocking.

• 38:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and Heisman's already hurt, but you know, it's not, it's shocking, but it's also not shocking because the seeds were being planted last year down the stretch, right?

• 38:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, they got spanked by the Ravens.

• 38:44Bill Simmons?

  Remember that? All of a sudden, they just died and they, and Watt didn't get a sack for like the last month and plus of the season.

• 38:51Speaker 04

  I mean, your beloved Seattle Seahawks just ran all over them in that game. Kenneth Walker looked incredible.

• 38:58Bill Simmons?

  Walker was great. There's just going to be no way to figure out who's going to be good game to game between Walker and Charbonne though.

• 39:04Speaker 04

  All right.

• 39:05Bill Simmons?

  Like if you're juggling those guys in fantasy, good luck, good luck. Like Charbonne was terrible in Pittsburgh and he'll probably have 120 yards in his next game. All right, Rogers were out. Gimpie Joe Burrow coming off a major turf toe injury on a Bengals team that probably is only nine games. I think he's a cross off just for this year.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:25Bill Simmons?

  All right, now it gets really interesting.

• 39:29Bill Simmons?

  Can Bo Nix win a playoff game?

• 39:31Speaker 04

  Oh, this is the one I was dreading. I think he is, you talked about Herbert, I think he's going to be the most divisive quarterback, maybe for like.

• 39:38Bill Simmons?

  It's already happening.

• 39:39Speaker 04

  It's happening, yeah.

• 39:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he took the torch.

• 39:42Speaker 04

  Um, he looked better.

• 39:43Bill Simmons?

  I have a lot of Broncos capital for this year.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  Do you?

• 39:47Bill Simmons?

  I'm officially nervous, yeah.

• 39:50Speaker 04

  He looked better, I thought, in week two, but.

• 39:53Bill Simmons?

  Better from a guy that had four turnovers in week one, yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 04

  I do worry, the premise for the Broncos for me this year being really good was the defense would continue to be elite and then they would be able to really run the ball better behind a great offensive line. They invest a lot in it. It looks okay early on, but it feels like there's still a ceiling on the offense. And so you really need the defense to avoid regression. And they just got carved up by Danny Dimes.

• 40:21Bill Simmons?

  Shocking.

• 40:22Speaker 04

  That was, that was stunning to me.

• 40:24Bill Simmons?

  Although shocking, but on the other hand, we talked about Tyler Warren earlier and how he's just immediately good. Taylor looks like, I think that maybe the best he's ever looked like, just, he just looks the fastest, the shiftest, just everything.

• 40:41Speaker 04

  And you really saw like the weakness, he really exposed, I thought, the weakness of the Broncos defense, which is the linebacker unit. Dre Greenlaw hasn't been playing, um, cause they got him on those backers vertically and, and like, one of my, it's, um, I think it's too early to take a Daniel Jones victory lap, not, not me, for people who are supporters of him. But it's not too early for me to take a nail on being very skeptical of why the Colts. It wasn't about Richardson for me. It was, I thought, well, there's clearly a ceiling on his offense with Danny Dimes. Like you really, as a Colts fan, you want to go into this season. And I think Shane Steichen looked at him and saw a quarterback who'd actually execute his offense and his offense is really good. He's a really good play caller.

• 41:25Speaker 04

  So that, even if, I think Jones is going to come back to earth a little bit, particularly on the downfield stuff and under pressure, but he can just run that offense. Is he on this list, by the way? Are we got, are we going to get to him? Because.

• 41:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he is on the list.

• 41:39Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 41:42Bill Simmons?

  Well, he did already win a playoff game.

• 41:45Speaker 04

  True, and he looked worse that year to me.

• 41:48Bill Simmons?

  It's so funny because nobody wanted to pick Houston to win the AFC South, right? We're all doing the three and three out rule. I need, I need to get a couple of playoff teams out, put a couple in, and we all stared at Indianapolis.

• 42:01Bill Simmons?

  I remember I was listening to Nate and Shield did a pod and they talked about it. And I was just like, I have my train ticket thinking about this and I couldn't get there because of Jones. But when you think like, they can block for him, he's got a good coordinator, they have actual weapons and I would say they have one of the three or four best running backs.

• 42:21Speaker 04

  Totally fair.

• 42:22Bill Simmons?

  And Warren might be a top five tight end already or top six, top seven, whatever. He's at least somebody on third and four. He can get up and make a play. I don't know. I mean, they're the favorites in the division now, especially after Houston goes 0-2. And Houston's line, look, who has a worse line than Houston? Three teams?

• 42:40Speaker 04

  It's just so depressing to watch because it just feels like last year all over again.

• 42:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  And it turns out, taking offensive linemen from bad offensive lines in free agency isn't a good strategy for rebuilding. I, it's, yeah, I, I think AFC South is going to be pretty close. I think the other thing about the Colts that I like though, is I like the defense. I know that they had a little, they gave up some big plays to Bo Nix, but I think Lu Anarumo was like the wrong coach for the Bengals. He might be the right coach for a defense that has more veterans and that's what Indianapolis is.

• 43:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't, I, I said on Sunday night, it's after the Saints going 2-0 last year and we got like, whoa, look at this. And then it could be the rabbit team this year that just jumps out. I also thought they should have lost to Denver and they did lose. And for some reason, there was a weird leverage play. So if they're 1-1, are we, are we as excited? Probably not. CJ Stroud, I do not think will win a playoff game at least this year with that offensive line. I don't see a path.

• 43:47Speaker 04

  Yeah, I don't either.

• 43:47Bill Simmons?

  Even if they sneak in, I don't see it.

• 43:52Speaker 04

  It is, it was interesting to watch him last night too, in contrast with the Bucks offense. Cause right, cause the Bucks offense also like they had makeshift offensive line and the Texans defensive line was just, they were just completely destroying them in line of scrimmage. But Baker thought, did a good job getting the ball quickly. They like schemed up a lot of successful screens and then the run game was still good. And it feels like Stroud has no easy buttons and I'm not completely exonerating him on some of the pressure stuff and there are situations where he's probably holding the ball too long. But like what, does everything he has, has, does in this offense have to be like the hardest possible setting at all times? It's just feels exactly like last year to me.

• 44:30Bill Simmons?

  Good point.

• 44:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, it's, it's like the all time feast or famine. Like how about just an eight yard pass to somebody? I have no for Stroud.

• 44:40Bill Simmons?

  I'm not going to say no for your guy Sam Darnold because I still like that Seattle team. And I'm, I'm probably in the all time minority and I'm sure on your Seahawks text thread, you're not nearly as excited. But I think, I like the team. I think they can run the ball. He's a roller coaster, but you've had that for the last decade anyway. So it's not anything different and I don't mind the defense.

• 45:03Speaker 04

  Don't mind, they're awesome.

• 45:04Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  I think this is one of the five best defenses in football.

• 45:08Bill Simmons?

  I hope you're right. That's what I was banking on when I picked them to win the NFC West. But I don't mind how the defense looked the, the, the first week against the Niners. I thought there were a couple of stops, maybe you got to get that they didn't get, but they were better in the Pittsburgh game.

• 45:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I, this is a really tough one for me because I'm, I am still a little apprehensive of this passing attack. It looked better against Pittsburgh, but you know.

• 45:31Bill Simmons?

  You have an amazing receiver.

• 45:33Speaker 04

  One.

• 45:34Bill Simmons?

  You have one amazing receiver.

• 45:38Speaker 04

  Jake Bobo, no, I'm just kidding. Jack Smith, yeah, he's unbelievable. Cup was good against the Steelers, but I don't know if there's enough. The, the premise of this Seahawks offense under Clint Kubiak is they're going to come out with big bodies. They got a tight end or a fullback who's built like SpongeBob, multiple tight ends. And they're going to pound the rock and then they're going to play action off of that wide zone run game. And they're going to put Sam Darnold under center. And when it works, it looks really good. And at times against the Steelers, it worked, but did not look good week one. So I think it's just going to be up and down based on competition. It's going to be on the, the defense is going to have to carry them in a lot of these.

• 46:15Bill Simmons?

  Here's their path for a Sam Darnold playoff win.

• 46:19Bill Simmons?

  You have to win the division. And you win the four or five game. And the five seed would be Detroit?

• 46:28Speaker 04

  They're not, I don't, I don't see that.

• 46:31Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 46:32Speaker 04

  I'm skeptical. I would love it. I like Sam Darnold just seems like a delight. I would love for him to have success.

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  Penix?

• 46:41Speaker 04

  Hmm, I don't see it. It's nice that they got a pass rush going though.

• 46:46Bill Simmons?

  I kind of like the team. I wouldn't rule it out.

• 46:49Speaker 04

  I just think the Bucks are better and I don't see them as a wild, you know what I mean? The

• 46:54Speaker 04

  they'd have, I, I just think the Bucks are going to win the NFC South.

• 46:57Bill Simmons?

  Okay. And then we go Drake May, Kyler, Gino, Caleb Williams. We're going no on all those guys.

• 47:05Speaker 04

  No on May? So you're out?

• 47:06Bill Simmons?

  I think he can make the playoffs. I don't think they're beating Buffalo or Baltimore in round one. They can be a seven seed. They're not going to Buffalo and winning in mid-January.

• 47:17Bill Simmons?

  Dimes is the only one out of everybody else we mentioned. I was like, shit, maybe. I don't know. They could be the four seed. Yeah, I think I'm, I might be a conceivable yes. It still seems inconceivable, but.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  I really like.

• 47:33Speaker 04

  I am not, I do not think this is going to continue at this rate.

• 47:36Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 47:37Speaker 04

  But I was just looking at this friend of mine. He's completing 78% of his short passes, which is top five. Anthony Richardson completed the lowest by a lot. It was, he was the only quarterback in the NFL last year completing less than 60% of his short passes.

• 47:54Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 47:55Speaker 04

  That to me is sustainable. Like Daniel Jones, he's always hit those. And when you got a bunch of like mutant skill players like Warren and Taylor and they've got a really good group of receivers and I love Josh Downs and yeah, they can be efficient on offense. Line looks good. I, I'm a believer.

• 48:14Bill Simmons?

  Well, they have at the Titans this week.

• 48:19Bill Simmons?

  That has all the makings of just Vegas getting annihilated.

• 48:24Bill Simmons?

  At the Rams, then home Raiders, home Cardinals.

• 48:28Bill Simmons?

  It's like not an inconceivable five and one after six games for them. Which is kind of bonkers to think about. Um, okay, a couple more things before we go. The NFC West, what's happening there? We talked about the Seahawks a little, but what's going on? Is this going to be the wonky division this year that we just every like, almost like last year? Every week it seems like somebody's the favorite and then somebody loses and then it's a new favorite. That's just what we're going to do?

• 48:54Speaker 04

  Three two and O teams right now in the NFC West. Are they the only? They must be the only division in football. Let's see, they're only in the, yeah.

• 49:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 04

  They're the only division and then the CX are one and one and, um, and they played the Niners week one. So, uh, yeah, I think I felt before the year that this was like the closest knit division, right? Where like all four teams are pretty close. And I definitely still feel that way. I think early on, Matthew Stafford kind of has reminded us that he's still a cut above. And that offense to me is, has a higher ceiling than all four of them. But when you look at the teams as a whole, I could see it coming down to the wire between all of them. Cause the Seahawks have the best defense. The Niners are probably the most balanced, but then there's the pretty.

• 49:41Bill Simmons?

  But had the least depth and already had multiple injuries.

• 49:45Speaker 04

  And I don't, Cardinals are really hard for me to get my arms around because Kyler is like one of the more high variance quarterbacks in football. Like there's moments where he looks to me unbelievable and he makes Marvin Harrison Jr. Look good early on. But then there's stretches where he's just not playing to the level he he's capable of.

• 50:02Bill Simmons?

  Well, on Fanduel right now. The Niners are plus 155, the Rams are plus 170, the Cardinals are plus 350. And then Seattle's eight to one, which I just, I just don't fundamentally understand. Cause I agree with you. I think those teams are all bunched together. A lot of it's going to come down to injury luck. You know, there's going to be three or four absolutely stupid games. Between the two, between two of the teams, right? We're gonna have like a 19 to 18 score gummy, some sort of field goal hitting both uprights before it goes through. Like he's just no weird shit's gonna happen, but I think it's anybody's division. So the eight to one was really surprising to me.

• 50:42Speaker 04

  If they all played each other, like in every matchup, I don't think any of them would have more than a score. They'd probably all be like four point, three points or less.

• 50:52Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 50:52Speaker 04

  Splitting them. So yeah, I mean, to me, it's just gonna come down to matchups and injuries for all of them. The Niners, I mean, that's just a reflection of the schedule being so easy, right? But yeah, um, they didn't look like world beaters. We, I mean, they'd look better in Seattle. Obviously they won that game and particularly on offense and the defense looks somewhat fixed under Robert Sala, but.

• 51:11Bill Simmons?

  I think you win that game if you just go for the fourth down and McDonald saying afterwards that. The nerds told him to go for it and he kind of overruled them.

• 51:21Speaker 04

  I know.

• 51:21Bill Simmons?

  I was surprised by that.

• 51:23Speaker 04

  I was too, cause I, I really like him, a big fan of him, and I thought he was really good at game management last year. I was surprised by that. Sometimes, you know, when these defensive coaches get an elite defense on their hands, they start.

• 51:37Bill Simmons?

  They overtrust it?

• 51:38Speaker 04

  Yeah. Um, but yeah, I don't think he'll, I think next time he'll probably be more, he was more aggressive in this last game too.

• 51:46Bill Simmons?

  Speaking of division odds, this will be your overreaction. This happens every year heading into week three. Colts are plus 135 on FanDuel. Jags are two to one and the Texans are down to plus 250.

• 52:00Bill Simmons?

  It feels a little overreacting. We're 15 games left. Like, they still have the best secondary, probably in the league. They still have a pass rush.

• 52:08Speaker 04

  That is unbelievable. They have the best. I still think they might have the best defense in the NFL.

• 52:14Bill Simmons?

  They might have just lost two playoff teams, the Rams and Tampa, who might be the third and fourth best teams in the NFC for all we know. I don't know. That feels like an overreaction to me.

• 52:24Speaker 04

  The 0-2 thing is hard. I mean, the Rams did it, right? But it's hard to dig your, I mean,

• 52:28Bill Simmons?

  Every year, someone does it.

• 52:29Speaker 04

  Yeah, every year, someone does it. I think that does. I agree. I think that feels, especially compared to the Jags.

• 52:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, you sound, from reading between the lines of you on this podcast today, but also texts with you and Danny Kelly, I'm gonna say there's like a cautious buzz right now in Seahawks Nation, just like a little.

• 52:49Speaker 04

  You were so high on them this summer.

• 52:52Bill Simmons?

  Just, somebody's gotta win the division. I, I, I just, they seem like the safest pick to me. Everybody was talking about the Arizona Cardinals. And I'm like, what have they ever done? I have to pick Kyler Murray? Why do I have to do that?

• 53:04Speaker 04

  I feel like your Seahawks enthusiasm, like, reverse psychologically me, psychologized me into being, I'm learning a lot about this as the mother of a two-year-old, which is you can't sell someone too hard on something because it makes them not want it. And I feel like you did that to me a little bit with your Seahawks hype this offseason.

• 53:24Bill Simmons?

  How old is your child exactly?

• 53:26Speaker 04

  He turns two in two weeks.

• 53:28Bill Simmons?

  Oh, good luck, man. That is just, good luck.

• 53:34Bill Simmons?

  Two-year-old boys, just demons.

• 53:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 53:39Bill Simmons?

  Good luck. I wish you the best. That's gonna be during football season? Oh, my God.

• 53:44Speaker 04

  No, it's great. I love being told no. No, no, no, no, no, is the most popular word in our house right now, just constantly.

• 53:54Bill Simmons?

  I wish you the best. This episode is brought to you by Carhartt. We spend a lot of time talking about football, the players, the coaches, the big plays. But there's a whole other team we rarely think about, the people who make the game possible, the workers building stadiums, paving parking lots, growing the grass, welding the goalposts, even making the footballs. They're committed to their craft and they're doing the work long before kickoff. Carhartt is proud to outfit those crews. So next time you're watching a game, take a second to appreciate the people behind it. Learn more at carhartt.com/jointhetraids.

• 54:26Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Workday. Guessing is for game shows, not your business, especially when your margin for error is zero. Workday is the enterprise AI platform for HR, finance and IT with a deep understanding of your organization's context and guardrails. So every AI action is permission aware, giving you accuracy 24/7 and the ability to not just get work done, but get it done right. It's a new Workday. Hey, I'm a big fan of FanDuel's Thursday Touchdown Jackpot promo, available for every Thursday night football game. Just place a $5 anytime bet on the game using the promo Profit Boost Token. We call it a PBT. You can win a share of the $2 million in bonus bets FanDuel is giving away if your player scores the first

• 55:09Bill Simmons?

  TD or the last TDs, plus you can win your bet. If your player scores the first TD, split a million dollars in bonus bets with everyone that bet the same player. There's another $1 million jackpot for the last TD scorer. And again, I almost hit this last week. I had Tucker Kraft, he did score, but he didn't score the first or last. I'm giving out James Cook of the Buffalo Bills for this week. So be sure to check out the TD jackpot promo for Thursday night football this week and each subsequent Thursday over at FanDuel Sportsbook. All right, last question and most important. Some huge Jayden Daniels news. And

• 55:47Bill Simmons?

  the, what's the deal? Just walk us through your emotions here.

• 55:51Speaker 04

  The injury.

• 55:52Bill Simmons?

  Not the injury.

• 55:53Speaker 04

  Yeah. Oh.

• 55:58Bill Simmons?

  Forget the injury, he'll be fine. Now, the other news.

• 56:03Speaker 04

  Uh, you had me queued up. I was like, he took 206 instances of contact last year in the open field. He's just too vulnerable.

• 56:10Bill Simmons?

  Uh, I'm already on that. I've been saying that to House forever.

• 56:14Speaker 04

  Uh, well, the big Jane Daniels news, which is that he is one eighth Japanese, which he broke, which is important. So this is not. My contingent.

• 56:26Bill Simmons?

  It was like an announcement.

• 56:27Speaker 04

  Yeah, he put it on his helmet. He wore it because they wear the little flags. It put the Japanese flag on his helmet and then.

• 56:33Bill Simmons?

  So what did you say? His grandmother was?

• 56:36Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 56:36Bill Simmons?

  Japanese or half Japanese?

• 56:38Speaker 04

  His grand, great grandmother is Japanese, so his grandmother is half Japanese, so his mom is a quarter, so he's an eighth. Right? I think I did the math right. But I did a deep dive, Phil.

• 56:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I figured you would.

• 56:49Speaker 04

  On his mom's Instagram, like eight years and found several pictures. His grandmother just looks like my relatives, so. Um, listen, I said to Dominique when the news broke, it was a big piece of breaking news in my community.

• 57:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:05Speaker 04

  Any quarterback with a QBR of 90 or higher will take anything. You can be one 24th Korean and we will claim you if you're, if you're performing the way Jayden Daniels does. But another piece of news broke, Cameron Dicker.

• 57:21Speaker 04

  The Chargers kicker who's like really good. Chinese. Saw that. There was a graphic that came across.

• 57:28Bill Simmons?

  What were the, what's the percentage?

• 57:30Speaker 04

  Graphic doesn't break it down, so I'll have to do another deep dive in there, but um.

• 57:35Bill Simmons?

  I think you needed Daniels because I know Chang was really upset about Ku.

• 57:40Speaker 04

  I know.

• 57:41Bill Simmons?

  Kind of falling apart in Atlanta.

• 57:43Speaker 04

  We needed a kicker, so we got one now.

• 57:45Bill Simmons?

  So what was, what was Heinz Ward? He was, he was Thai, right?

• 57:50Speaker 04

  No, he was Korean.

• 57:51Bill Simmons?

  Korean?

• 57:51Speaker 04

  Yeah. This is a big deal for me growing up.

• 57:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, but how, he was like, he was way more than Jayden Daniels.

• 57:58Speaker 04

  Pretty sure it was 50% if I remember, and he, he took it really seriously. Uh, we got a good squad going. I, I did the whole list. I might have to update the roster. Um, we're very strong.

• 58:09Bill Simmons?

  Roster?

• 58:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I put together a whole roster. We're very strong. We're surprisingly strong at skill player because we got Puka. It's A A N A A N H P I. Because we need all the PIs in the trenches that we can get. The whole offensive line is basically P, although the Browns, Broncos center is part Korean. I think I found out recently. And it's a golden age for Asian safeties led, of course, by our king, Kyle Hamilton.

• 58:33Bill Simmons?

  I forgot.

• 58:34Speaker 04

  But there's like 10 right now around the league safeties.

• 58:38Bill Simmons?

  You're right.

• 58:39Speaker 04

  For some reason. I don't know why.

• 58:41Bill Simmons?

  Wow.

• 58:42Speaker 04

  We're pretty thin at tight end. We need, if there any, anyone's listening to this and knows any tight end who has even just, just a little bit, please alert me because we really need.

• 58:50Bill Simmons?

  I honestly, if this was a Twitter account, I would follow it.

• 58:55Speaker 04

  Like monitoring the.

• 58:57Bill Simmons?

  Breaking news.

• 58:58Speaker 04

  We need like a, like a aggregator account that only does that, like a, like a dove climbing, but not evil account that just reports on Asian NFL news.

• 59:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I don't feel like Chang's been focused enough on it at all, to be honest. I know he's busy. He's, he's, the Netflix show came back. You and I were on it a couple of weeks ago. He's, he's traveling around with Amazon. He's already been knocked out of my guillotine league. He's very upset about that.

• 59:25Speaker 04

  Oh no, really?

• 59:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. But I don't feel like he's been focused enough on this Dana thing because that's his favorite team.

• 59:32Speaker 04

  I know. It's, I, I, well, I sent it to him. I expected a way bigger reaction than the way the, you know, Dan Daniel's song, Nickname.

• 59:39Bill Simmons?

  Maybe he's slow playing it. Maybe it's too much pressure now and that, because it's like kind of crossed the beams for him with, with, with two different areas of interest.

• 59:46Speaker 04

  This is like, I don't, I don't know if you do this. We've never talked about it. I don't draft Seahawks in fantasy for this exact reason, which is you don't want two feelings of loyalty and incentive at the same time. Do you do that?

• 59:58Bill Simmons?

  I'm the opposite. I, I, I, like, I have Trevion Henderson in multiple leagues. Meanwhile, meanwhile, I can't block.

• 1:00:05Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:00:05Bill Simmons?

  He was, well, I was promised a pass blocker. I was promised this awesome pass blocker that, that then could, could play three downs and he's, and he's, he had three holding penalties last week.

• 1:00:17Speaker 04

  Yeah. Jay, Dave might also be so reeling from your, your bold anti-race take. It got a big reaction.

• 1:00:25Bill Simmons?

  Was it anti-race? It was pro pasta.

• 1:00:27Speaker 04

  It was, you can't rate anything highly that you can make in one minute.

• 1:00:33Bill Simmons?

  I just said you can't make pasta in one minute. Listen, my goal on that show is just to try to throw Chang off. So he is thinking he's mad about something I said and then he forgets what he's cooking. But you did the amazing thing of you go on Dinner Time Live three hours after you had lunch.

• 1:00:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, that was.

• 1:00:53Bill Simmons?

  And then I'm the one who has to do all the eating. And you're just like picking like a little bird because you're not hungry.

• 1:00:58Speaker 04

  And you're not a big eater too. I have seen you.

• 1:01:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to be like mowing down on live TV. So there is, there is something, you're very self-conscious on those shows because you want to eat and it's really good. But you also don't want to seem like you're in Goodfellas.

• 1:01:13Speaker 04

  You know what happened to me on that show? I didn't, I don't know if I told you this. So early, Dave started making all this Korean food and he made mandu, which I grew up eating. And you remember I was like, yeah, I grew up making this with my mom or whatever. He puts it out, I swear I'm not blaming Chang, but I immediately shove it into my mouth and it was, I burned my entire mouth. So I could actually barely taste anything. And then, but my thought is like, I can't spit out food on television. So for a full like minute, I was just sitting there trying, hoping it would cool inside of my mouth. Because it was so hot and my mouth was burned. I don't think I could feel anything in my mouth for like three days after that.

• 1:01:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's rough when you really burn it.

• 1:01:55Bill Simmons?

  When you just have like skin hanging from the top of your.

• 1:01:58Speaker 04

  Entire show.

• 1:01:59Bill Simmons?

  What's your favorite TV show right now?

• 1:02:02Speaker 04

  Loving Task, your recommendation. Just, Chris Ryan was over at my house talking about how good it was. So I had to watch it. I'm loving it.

• 1:02:09Bill Simmons?

  Great.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  You guys are recapping?

• 1:02:11Bill Simmons?

  That's it. I'm watching The Girlfriend on Amazon with Robin Wright.

• 1:02:15Speaker 04

  That is so yours.

• 1:02:17Bill Simmons?

  It's, they just, the algorithm knows me. It's like there's somebody, her son's dating somebody she doesn't trust or like, and there's backstories and. All these shows start with a murder now. The first thing you see is a dead body and blood and then we go backwards.

• 1:02:31Speaker 04

  Those start that way, I feel like.

• 1:02:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's how they, that's the algorithm tells them to do it.

• 1:02:35Speaker 04

  A show that actually did kind of start that way, but in a different way that I love, Alien Earth. Are you watching that on FX?

• 1:02:41Bill Simmons?

  Not watching that. It's good.

• 1:02:43Speaker 04

  It's a show, I mean, it's Noah Hawley who did Fargo, which I loved also. Apparently is like the best at taking source material and turning it into television. It's about these children or hybrids or whatever, but really it's two actors. Timothy Olyphant is one of them and then the other, I forget the actor's name, but his character's name is Moro, who are just running away with this series, a cyborg and a synth or whatnot. Every scene with them, I can't believe you're not watching this because you would love the Timothy Olyphant scenes in this show.

• 1:03:16Bill Simmons?

  I'll watch it. I love Olyphant. The football really threw me for a loop. I either have to watch like a show like Task where I'm all in on or a really dumb show like The Girlfriend.

• 1:03:26Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Bill Simmons?

  And those are like my two speeds at this point.

• 1:03:29Speaker 04

  Task on Sundays is tough, but.

• 1:03:33Bill Simmons?

  I gotta be honest, I know you're still watching some of these reality shows. I'm having a really hard time with reality and I don't know whether I'm just too old now. I might have aged out of the demo. I might be edging towards CBS because I'm old.

• 1:03:48Speaker 04

  I did Love Island this summer and it was pretty, it was brutal. It was, you know what's the problem with it? This is my theory about all reality television. People started treating it like sports in a way that made it not fun.

• 1:04:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:03Speaker 04

  It's kind of gotten overtaken by like stand culture and the internet. And also I think it maybe there's a sports analogy here for like young quarterbacks coming in and trying to be Mahomes. Everybody on the shows is now just trying to be memed and, you know, influence, which no shame in the game, but I think it's kind of ruining the shows.

• 1:04:25Bill Simmons?

  I think that's a really crucial and important point. When reality was really working in the 2000s at its best, it was people who almost had no idea they were being filmed and that there would be ramifications combined with. Just kind of aberrant behavior that now all most of that, if not all of it is discouraged, which is probably a good thing for mankind, but for reality shows, they're just, the shows are just way more careful. Like the challenge, I can't even really watch anymore. It's like an athletic competition.

• 1:04:55Speaker 04

  Is that it?

• 1:04:55Bill Simmons?

  You know?

• 1:04:56Speaker 04

  It's still going.

• 1:04:57Bill Simmons?

  It's still going and it's like, it's like, it really is the fifth American sport now. But even these dating shows like that Bachelor in Paradise, I don't know what they were doing with that show.

• 1:05:06Speaker 04

  I still watch Love is Blind. We recap it. I have a show.

• 1:05:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:10Speaker 04

  Viewer discretion. People like Love is Blind. Um, but, and I still like that one because I think it actually gets people who they're a little older and they're not, um, like all influencers, but, and it's just really well produced. But yeah, I, I used to watch so much more. I tapped out on, you and I used to text about the Bachelor.

• 1:05:32Bill Simmons?

  He used to, I, it used to be a good show. I don't, I, I think it's, it probably ran its course. It's been on since 2002. Like what were you doing 2003? What were you doing in 2003?

• 1:05:44Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 1:05:44Bill Simmons?

  It's how long it's been on.

• 1:05:46Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, it's probably good for my brain that I'm watching less reality TV and more Alien.

• 1:05:52Bill Simmons?

  Now we just have more football and football is now on.

• 1:05:55Speaker 04

  Every channel.

• 1:05:56Bill Simmons?

  It's like four days a week. It's just done all the time.

• 1:05:58Speaker 04

  I didn't like the Friday. That was, well, yeah.

• 1:06:01Bill Simmons?

  You didn't like Friday Brazil?

• 1:06:03Speaker 04

  It was tough. But that might be more like as a mother of a two-year-old, it's just hard with the multiple nights.

• 1:06:09Bill Simmons?

  You know, it's going to be tough is Thursday night, Bills Dolphins, the probably Mike McDaniel's last game and, uh, Josh Allen just going nuts.

• 1:06:19Speaker 04

  What day of the Ringer NFL show does he, does he get?

• 1:06:23Bill Simmons?

  Should I make the invitation now or wait till he's formally relieved of his duties?

• 1:06:27Speaker 04

  Uh, my classmate, Mike Daniel, or maybe weren't, I don't know if we overlapped. Um, I also don't know if he'd be a good, of all the NFL coaches right now, if you could take any of them, this is not about their coaching talent. Who do you think would be, you're, you are, I've often said this, I think the single best talent evaluator in our industry.

• 1:06:48Bill Simmons?

  Thank you.

• 1:06:49Speaker 04

  Who would you pick?

• 1:06:50Bill Simmons?

  Appreciate that.

• 1:06:50Speaker 04

  Of the coaches to be the, the new co-host of the Ringer NFL show?

• 1:06:54Bill Simmons?

  So. Is the caveat they're never going to coach football again? They're going to just do this for a living?

• 1:07:00Speaker 04

  Don't worry about the coaching. Don't worry if they're good at coaching. Don't worry if they're going to be available. Just who would you pick? Because you think that guy is going to be freaking awesome talking.

• 1:07:08Bill Simmons?

  McVeigh.

• 1:07:09Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's that's number one draft pick. Easy.

• 1:07:12Bill Simmons?

  Although I'm becoming more and more intrigued by Kevin O'Connell.

• 1:07:16Speaker 04

  He's good. He's a good talker.

• 1:07:19Bill Simmons?

  Dark horse. I think his, I watch all the locker room speeches. This is my true passion now that reality TV has died for me. And, uh, and I think his locker room stuff is really high end. I like, he's almost playing for the cameras in the right ways, but I think he's really good at it.

• 1:07:34Speaker 04

  Have you, you haven't met him in person, right?

• 1:07:36Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:07:37Speaker 04

  Really charismatic too. And you can see why all the players love him so much immediately as soon as you talk to him. So he would be, he's too tall to be a podcaster, but he would be good otherwise.

• 1:07:49Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's smart enough to make up a fake injury for J.J. McCarthy, the high ankle sprain that I don't think happened. Yeah, his ankles hurt. We need Carson Wentz for a couple of weeks after J.J. missed 130 throws. Mina, thanks for popping on. Go do, uh, go do television. And, uh, let's go Seahawks. Congratulations on Jaden Daniels. Great to see you. Thanks for coming on.

• 1:08:13Speaker 04

  Glad to have him as a, as a member.

• 1:08:15Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Expedia. You know how at the end of the season, your team goes to Cancun? Sometimes earlier than expected? Sometimes after blowing a 3-1 series lead, but what if you went to Cancun? With Expedia, save up to 30% when you bundle and save. You can book the flight or the hotel now, then book the rest later. In all fairness though, hopefully your team doesn't go to Cancun. One, two, three Cancun. Or if they do, you go with them. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Sign in to save, savings vary. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. Excitement is in the air. That's right. It's the start of NBA season. I can't wait to get together with friends, share some Michelob Ultras and watch Tip Off.

• 1:08:55Bill Simmons?

  Plus, as the official beer sponsor of the NBA, Michelob Ultra is getting you closer to the action with the experiences that make you feel like you're courtside to actual courtside tickets. Enter now for a chance to win at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 26 to 27. No purchase necessary. Opening US residents 21+ Begins on October 1st, 2026. Ends on June 30th, 2027. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry. Entry deadlines, prizes, and details. And now it's time for a special part of today's episode brought to you by NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. Our friends, and if you're an NFL fan like me, obviously I'm a fan because you've heard me talk about it constantly. You want NFL Sunday Ticket. You want to subscribe. You want to do it on YouTube TV.

• 1:09:39Bill Simmons?

  You get every game every Sunday all in place. You can watch four games at once on Multi-View, which is going to be difficult this week because there's nine early games, the 1 o'clock PM ET games. There's nine of them. And lucky for me, YouTube is crowning me their CMO, their Chief Multi-View Officer. It's my job to tell you which four games to pick, but remember, local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games. Excludes digital only games that commercial use. Device and content restrictions apply. Terms and embargoes apply. No refunds. Well, two of the picks are easy. Rams Eagles. That's going to be awesome. Steelers Pats. Are the Pats for real? Are the Steelers run defense a mess? Rogers? Can the Pats shut them down? Drake May, is that for real?

• 1:10:24Bill Simmons?

  I'm excited for that one. Cincinnati, Minnesota would be the third one. Two backup QBs. Kind of interested in both. Wentz, Jake Browning. Not terrible. Since he's 2-0, Minnesota's 1-1. And then, last but not least, I'd probably put Indianapolis and Tennessee on, even though Tennessee's 0-2. I really like watching Cam Ward and Indianapolis. Let's see, can you go 3-0? All right, is your offense the 99 Rams? What's happening with this team? Those would be my four. So, thanks again to YouTube for

• 1:10:57Bill Simmons?

  for giving me the Chief Multi-View Officer job, the CMO. With every game every Sunday at your fingertips, choosing the ones that deserve a spot on your Multi-View screen is serious business. So you can never miss a moment of action. All you have to do is get NFL Sunday Ticket on YouTube TV. For a limited time, only get $36 off NFL Sunday Ticket using code BS36 at checkout. New Year's is only while supplies last, ends September 22nd. Go to youtube.com/BS to sign up now. Local and national games on YouTube TV. NFL Sunday Ticket for out of market games. Excludes digital only games that commercial use. Device and content restrictions apply. Terms and embargoes apply.

• 1:11:37Speaker 05

  No refunds.

• 1:11:38Bill Simmons?

  All right. My friend Brian Koppelman is here. A long time, long time, long time movie aficionado. He's made movies. He works in Hollywood. Robert Redford died today. And for some reason, you were my first text. I wanted to talk to you about Robert Redford because I think we both appreciated and liked and were frustrated by all the same things. But I'll start here. In the running for best all around career of any actor ever? Considering all the things that he did?

• 1:12:09Speaker 05

  The movie star rankings, like as far as a true movie star person who then became a director, filmmaker, producer. I mean, are you counting, you include Sundance in that? No doubt about it.

• 1:12:22Bill Simmons?

  You have to include Sundance. Yeah, that was the, I was just thinking about the scope as for some reason I didn't know that this day was, I hadn't heard that he was, obviously it was 89. So you never know at that point. But when you think about, you start reading the score stories and you're like, holy mackerel, this guy did so much stuff. His career is in all these different segments. I mean, he's the biggest actor in the seventies. Right? And we'll go into some of the reasons why that happened. But he's just, he owns that decade over some great guys. Newman's in there, McQueen, Reynolds, and he's the guy from that decade, right?

• 1:13:01Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, it's funny. He, he had some runs. When I was looking it over, even just as soon as we started texting about the movies, he had runs as each thing that little runs within the thing, each of which would have made him in the running for kind of like the best eight year chunk. And he repeated that a bunch of times in different ways. Like from when he would get a foothold at something, he could really run with it for a while in a crazy, amazing way. But also, Bill, I think part of why you wrote me is we're not gonna say, but you know, someone who meant a lot to the two of us had told us a lot of stories and about him, you know?

• 1:13:45Speaker 05

  And so I think we just had a bunch of different reactions together.

• 1:13:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, he said, he wins best director and best film for Ordinary People, which was the first movie he directed in 1980. We already did it in the rewatchables, but it's during a time. When actors really weren't supposed to do that, actors were supposed to act, directors were supposed to direct, and for the most part, you didn't really cross the beams. He started in three Best Picture Actor, or Best Picture Oscar winners, and laid down this whole model for all of these actors that followed, where it's like, well, I want to be an EP on this film. I want to own my own stuff. I want to own a company. I want to do more festivals. I want to be an activist. I think him and Newman really were the first two that I can remember that did that. Can you think of anybody else?

• 1:14:35Speaker 05

  He, no, I mean, who did which piece?

• 1:14:38Bill Simmons?

  Well, just like Newman did the, he was big on the activism side, and just trying to do a bunch of charity stuff and, and just use his platform for other things.

• 1:14:49Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think Brando certainly did. Different actors did along the way in different ways, maybe,

• 1:14:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, for political commentary. Yeah.

• 1:14:58Speaker 05

  Smaller ways, but yeah, those guys both absolutely did it. I mean, Jane Fonda definitely tried to, you know, did it too. But those guys, no doubt about it. Also, he just did lay down. I think it's got to just start, for me, like, Robert Redford is like the quintessential idea of what a movie star is supposed to feel and look like. And I think so much of it had to do with, yes, his, of course, his physical appearance, but the stillness in him as an actor, how he would just, however, he got that confidence to like, let the camera just land on him. But also his taste, which is what runs through everything you were just talking about.

• 1:15:41Speaker 05

  This is a guy who just could pick, he went through these periods where he just kind of, it felt like, understood what the mood was, or what cool was, or what classy was. And he could anticipate it at just the moment the wave was going to break, and he could ride the wave. And that's like, an incredibly rare skill over a long period of time.

• 1:16:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, taste and self-awareness is a really good combo if you're an A-plus listener. Yeah, I was thinking.

• 1:16:11Bill Simmons?

  I wrote down the three things that he just seemed to completely understand that all seemed pretty basic. And the first one you just mentioned, he knew he was a movie star. He wanted to make movies where he seemed like a movie star. And this was something Tarantino wrote about, uh, when he wrote about Steve McQueen in his book, where he was like, Steve McQueen, the most important thing to him was just how he looked in film, how he looked in a scene, how he didn't want a lot of dialogue. He would tell the screenwriter like, cut that out. I only need to say two words there. I don't need to go back and forth with a bunch of people. Redford was like, I'm really handsome. I'm a little mysterious. There's something, a tiny bit hard to figure out about me. I, I play it close to the vest.

• 1:16:55Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna have to figure me out. Um, but I'm really handsome. And he wrote that through the late 60s and early, in the 70s as well as anything.

• 1:17:05Speaker 05

  I mean, I don't know, I can't remember when we did the Margin Call podcast, um, if you had seen JC's movie that he made with Redford, um, on the, All Is Lost, right?

• 1:17:17Bill Simmons?

  Right, right, right. Yeah.

• 1:17:18Speaker 05

  I think. Did you ever see that movie?

• 1:17:20Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:17:21Speaker 05

  Cause it's incredible. And it's this thing you're talking about. I mean, Redford says five words in the movie and you're just with him and his face and his body and the situation he's in. And you care so much about who, what's gonna happen to this guy. And there's no great backstory. You don't know a tremendous amount. But in a way, that, I remember watching that at a theater and, and like you just said, um, you had no idea he was sick, neither did I, I didn't know, other than when he said he was stepping down from being actively running stuff.

• 1:17:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:17:54Speaker 05

  So you, you had a sense how, you know, he feels like he maybe isn't, but I didn't, I didn't know him. I never met the man. I had no idea. But all is lost. I remember watching this little theater in New York and thinking, well, he put it down. He put down that performance the guy does at the very end, where it's like, remember, this is what I was great at. Cause he didn't have to speak in that movie, but he had to be and carry all of what Robert Redford was. And, cause that guy was self-sufficient. That guy was stoic. That guy also beat himself up at moments. You know, he had the hubris, but it was like this whole grit and he had dignity and he had resolve and he had grit. And it was like stacking all these aspects of all these

• 1:18:39Speaker 05

  characters that Redford had played. Another, by the way, just incredible work by J C Shandor, who I think is like the most underrated director for some reason. Well, think about how underrated that guy is, what he's done. Redford, amazing and towering. Like, I don't know who's, I mean, who do you, I'm sure you've thought about it. I don't know who's in that conversation with him in your mind.

• 1:19:04Bill Simmons?

  I want to get to that. I have a spot for that.

• 1:19:06Speaker 05

  Okay.

• 1:19:08Bill Simmons?

  The second thing that I thought he understood, work with as many great directors as you can. I mean, he made seven Pollock movies.

• 1:19:15Speaker 05

  Pollock, yes. Sidney Pollock. He and Sidney Pollock had a special relationship.

• 1:19:18Bill Simmons?

  But that's something that I think some of the modern actors have really, that was a big Leo thing. That the smarter guys are like, I just want to work with the best people. The third thing I think is really underrated, and I haven't heard anyone make this point. And I don't know if it's a coincidence or if it's something, if I had ever had him on a podcast, I would have asked him. He really understood the importance of an ending and how important it was when a movie is coming to a close, some sort of scene or moment that when you're leaving the theater, you're like, man, that was fucking awesome. And I, again, I don't know if it's a coincidence, but think about, I have nine movies here.

• 1:20:01Bill Simmons?

  Downhill Racer, fucking amazing last five minutes, right? Spoiler alert, he thinks, he thinks he's just won the downhill and there's one last guy coming and they're all celebrating. And then they're kind of looking up and this guy's hitting the times and all of a sudden that guy flies in the air. It's just awesome. Butch and Sundance, one of the great endings ever written.

• 1:20:25Bill Simmons?

  Jeremiah Johnson, my dad's favorite movie. I only saw that movie one time with my dad. I don't remember the ending. The, it's just the, you know, he's fought these Native Americans forever. And then at the end, they have this begrudging respect and it's a wave and he waves. And, uh, and, and then this voice comes in, "Some folks say he's up there still." And it just, it's just fucking, it's like, yes, he, he survived. Uh, The Candidate. Oh, amazing. He wins. I love The Candidate. It's on the rewatch list. The last moment of Candidate is one of the all time. What do we do now? Yeah. What do we do now?

• 1:21:05Bill Simmons?

  The Sting? The whole reason people love that movie was the fight, was the last 10 minutes. The Way We Were, kind of a flawed movie, but when he runs into Streisand at the end. "Your girl is lovely, Hubble." Um, stolen for Sex and the City, first season, last episode, or second season. Uh, all the president's men, that, all the president's men with the, with the typing and Nixon. And then the last two, I think he had figured out the endings things. Brubaker is one of my favorite endings of any random movie ever. The clap. I, I made the case and invented the slow clap.

• 1:21:45Bill Simmons?

  You think, oh, is that the first, you think that's the first usage? He could have invented the slow clap. I do. Sick. I do. Uh, for people listening who don't know who Brubaker is, he's a prison warden. He's a warden, yeah. Goes undercover in the prison because the prison is so corrupt. He pretends to be a prisoner, but after he gets a job, goes in and then ends up, they gets pushed out by the state. But the prisoners realize he was actually like trying to make the prison better and they slow clap him as he's driving away. It's fucking awesome. And then the last one's The Natural, one of the great endings of any sports movie. Incredible. Probably the number one game you would have wanted to go to. Anyway, I don't know if that's a coincidence, but he just always left you leaving the theater, thinking about it, feeling on a high or feeling something.

• 1:22:31Speaker 05

  Yeah, I mean, that goes back to taste, right? And knowing what to choose to be in. And then, by all accounts, he was pretty relentless as far as making sure the scripts were right to his own satisfaction. So I'm sure, you know, look, he had the benefit of working with some of the greatest screenwriters ever, like William Goldman.

• 1:22:51Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 1:22:51Speaker 05

  And, I mean, Bill certainly wrote about that experience in certain ways. And Bill won the Oscar for All President's Men. And I think they had a good working relationship on Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

• 1:23:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, in the last 60 years, Redford had a case for making the best Western, Butch and the Sundance, the best baseball movie, the best conspiracy thriller, the best political movie, and the best reporting movie.

• 1:23:23Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah. Don't leave out the ending of Three Days of the Condor either.

• 1:23:26Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's where I got the conspiracy thriller.

• 1:23:29Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I'm saying the ending of that movie is unreal too, with the news in front of that. That's incredible also. And, you know, that movie's influence is like, you can't even begin to talk about that movie's influence. It's so big.

• 1:23:40Bill Simmons?

  And then the other thing, you talked about how he just had a good sense of what to do and what roles to take and more importantly, not to take. There was like that famous story of The Graduate when Mike Nichols wanted him and but then wasn't sure he was right for the role because he wanted the guy to be more of a loser. And as the story goes, he asked Redford, have you ever made a move on a girl and been turned down? And Redford's like, no. And he's like, that's, this is why you can't have the role.

• 1:24:10Speaker 05

  He said Redford didn't even understand the question.

• 1:24:13Bill Simmons?

  He's like, what do you mean?

• 1:24:14Speaker 05

  Yeah. What are you talking about?

• 1:24:16Bill Simmons?

  I put my sights on a woman and she's not interested? What's that like? Was he treated like he was nailing? But it's interesting. He never like did a horror movie. Like apparently he turned down Rosemary's baby. You know, he never did, he never did some sort of movie where he's playing somebody that's completely different than who he was. He always was kind of felt like it was Redford in whatever he did, which I think was intentional, right? Some people are just like, I need to be around the vicinity of me.

• 1:24:50Speaker 05

  Yeah, they they play roles that the essence of who they are is the thing that kind of shines through. And big movie stars a lot of the time where the essence that that we associate with them somehow is the thing that that shines through. And um,

• 1:25:06Speaker 05

  he didn't always play a good, like, some people think that means that they're always playing someone who's like a good man. That's not the case, but it's

• 1:25:15Speaker 05

  kind of a guy, in Redford's case, who's always had the ability to be competent. I mean, Condor is a great example where at first he seems incompetent, but by the end, he's a guy who can, he can figure it out. He played smart really well, and especially a guy people could think, oh, they think he's dumb because he's so handsome, but really, he's smart. Really, he can think, maybe not the fastest thinker, but a good thinker. And of course, I mean, even though Goldman wrote it, the way Redford played, you know, Can I Move? As Sundance invented a whole kind of a character, the kind of sidekick character that he was, who becomes kind of the equal buddy. And a guy who could admit, I can't swim. You know, there are a couple of scenes in Butch Cassidy that are like among the best scenes in cinema history that

• 1:26:00Speaker 05

  really rely on like line readings by Redford that were unbelievable, you know?

• 1:26:06Bill Simmons?

  Well, then, All the President's, which we we didn't rewatch was a while ago. There's that great scene when Hoffman's stealing his copy. And he kind of realizes what's happening and the way the way he kind of plays that. And then he finally goes over and just goes, I don't mind what he did. I just don't like how he did it.

• 1:26:24Speaker 05

  The greatest. I mean, that's one of my, that and Quiz Show, which he directed, those are two. The guy was involved in absolutely, you know, deeply, two of my personal, like, 10 favorite movies of all time. And like All the President's Men, probably my, maybe my most rewatched movie, it's really possible. But Quiz Show is definitely top 10 of my most rewatched movies that he directed, and they're similar. They're cousins, those movies.

• 1:26:50Bill Simmons?

  What is it about All the President's Men that sucked you in? Because I've heard different answers for this, depending on who you ask.

• 1:26:55Speaker 05

  The two, honestly, originally, because like I first saw it as a kid. I mean, that's been a movie I've rewatched. My whole life.

• 1:27:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, me too.

• 1:27:03Speaker 05

  Well, Bill, I don't think you can separate it from like I was seven when Nixon resigned. My mom made me.

• 1:27:07Bill Simmons?

  I just felt like it's been on since I was like, you know, a kid.

• 1:27:11Speaker 05

  My mom made me watch, and I'm so glad she did, Nixon's resignation speech, you know? So like the story of getting those bad guys.

• 1:27:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:27:19Speaker 05

  And then it was writers who did it, right? The way when you're a kid processing it, reporters who did it. And those guys were famous in my house. Like they would talk about those two guys because it was amazing what they did. So, and then this movie that I had heard was so great. And I just remember the way they talked and also like, you know, oh, I remember, remember when you were a writer? Do you remember, Bill, when you were a writer?

• 1:27:41Bill Simmons?

  When my fingers worked, yeah.

• 1:27:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, when you were a writer back, it was great. You were a great writer and you know how much I loved your writing. But so you do know when you're young, even if you don't know you're going to be a writer, stories about writers, they get your attention in a certain way. Like you're like, wait, these are writers? What does that mean? Even if you don't know, you're like, there's something about that that just like hits you. And that was the thing, like, what do you mean they're other journalists? Wait, what? It was just a cool, I don't know, like it was the cool, and also the long hair. And they're the way that they just even dressed in the situation and their friendship. Also, they were so fucking cool in the movie. The way they would trap people with the dialogue, the way they would concoct schemes. Also their boss being such a motherfucker.

• 1:28:25Speaker 05

  It was like every one of those things, the crackling dialogue and, um, and that they won, the good guys, you know, the good guys won, but it was really complicated. And they barely won and no one even knew if it was a good thing. I don't know, I, for me, every part of it is incredible. What about you? What, what is it about it?

• 1:28:44Bill Simmons?

  I didn't get into it.

• 1:28:45Speaker 05

  Watchables, but what is it?

• 1:28:46Bill Simmons?

  I didn't get into it until college, uh, maybe right after college. Cause I had to have a Watergate phase because that's what everybody would have afterwards. You would have your JFK phase, your Watergate phase, you just, your Charles Manson phase. You just go through, I'm going to read the book, I'm going to read this, I'm going to watch that. And, uh, and I did the Watergate thing and I just watched all the president's men. And then just from that point on, I felt like I've watched it at least once a year since. And the only movie I can think of that.

• 1:29:16Bill Simmons?

  Came close to it with Spotlight, which I think is, is the most depressing subject possible, but is this amazingly rewatchable movie that's now been out 10 years, but very similar beats of there's something really important happening. We actually need reporters and they're solving it almost like this true crime thing. People are against them.

• 1:29:37Speaker 05

  You're so.

• 1:29:38Bill Simmons?

  There's a big establishment that wants to knock them out.

• 1:29:41Speaker 05

  You're so right. I, I mean, um, I just also to say, obviously when I say all the President Spence, my, my most rewatched movie, the Godfather movies don't even count. Like they're just their own, that's their own.

• 1:29:52Bill Simmons?

  No, that's like saying like Knicks games. Yeah.

• 1:29:54Speaker 05

  Yeah. I can't count the Godfather movies. Obviously those are the most, it's not even close, but I'm talking about after, after that. Yeah. Spotlight, man, the first time I saw it, um, I, I saw Spotlight as in a screening, um, and, uh, when it was not even finished yet. And I, I, I sent emails around to a bunch of people like, I just saw the best picture winner. And this is like the, my, I said, that movie Spotlight that Tom McCarthy made is every single thing, every ambition I could ever have of what the ultimate thing you could do as a filmmaker is what Tom did in that movie. And you're right. I hadn't thought of it in terms of, but it is all the President Spence. To me, Quiz Show,

• 1:30:35Speaker 05

  which as you know, it's the rewatchables that you and I are going to do someday. Quiz Show is for me really right up there because it's this, it's, it's the same kind of story in a way, uh, which we could talk about another time, but, um, I feel like it's, it's, it does the same thing, but there are very few movies that do it well. And Redford did that.

• 1:30:56Bill Simmons?

  Only nominated for one acting Oscar, which seems nuts. It's like finding out that some incredible NBA player only made like one all NBA team.

• 1:31:04Speaker 05

  I don't even know. I saw that he only won one. What did he win for?

• 1:31:07Bill Simmons?

  He won for directing.

• 1:31:09Speaker 05

  Right. That's it.

• 1:31:10Bill Simmons?

  Ordinary people.

• 1:31:11Speaker 05

  That was his, right. That, that.

• 1:31:12Bill Simmons?

  When he beats Scorsese, which has turned out to be really.

• 1:31:14Speaker 05

  No, was that for him? Right. For best pick, but as producer or director on that one that did he win?

• 1:31:18Bill Simmons?

  Director.

• 1:31:19Speaker 05

  He won it as director. Right.

• 1:31:21Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. He's, was only nominated for this thing. He never, you mentioned All Is Lost. That's like way late in his career. He never had his version of the verdict or color money like Newman did. But what's interesting is he was in on the verdict.

• 1:31:38Bill Simmons?

  He was doing the movie and really wanted them to rewrite it because he didn't like that the guy was such a loser. And this is something Goldman would talk about. Goldman was, would always talk about how stars didn't want to play losers. They didn't, they always wanted to seem like the hero. And, and he's just like, this guy's too much of a loser. So he drops out and gives that role to, you know, Newman ends up getting it and should have won the Oscar for it. But it became such an important Newman role.

• 1:32:03Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 1:32:03Bill Simmons?

  And Redford just, just didn't fit his, didn't fit his model for what he wanted for himself.

• 1:32:09Speaker 05

  The thing ended up working out perfectly, just the way that it should.

• 1:32:12Bill Simmons?

  For everybody. It's probably, I don't think I would have bought him as Frank Galvin, but that's the thing. Like, I think deep down, he knew that was a good character.

• 1:32:19Speaker 05

  You know, not necessarily in the Lumet Mamet version of the movie.

• 1:32:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Right. Um, but he never got, I feel like he never got acting respect past a certain point. Right? And I don't really know the, you know, I, I think sometimes, especially with actors, when somebody is simple and really good like that, sometimes we recognize it and sometimes we don't. And in his case, maybe he was, I, I'm not an actor, so I wouldn't be able to speak like if, could he be on stage? Could he have been belting it? Like when you hear like these legendary stories of, you know, Pacino on Broadway or Olivier back in the day. I don't know if he was an actor like that. He was a movie star.

• 1:33:02Speaker 05

  Maybe that has to do with the era. Like, because, yes, he's a movie star. I think you set up perfectly. He's a movie star. Um, but it's hard to do what he did as an actor. And if you look at the actors who were the ones mostly in, in, in his prime lead era, who were getting recognized, they were big performances. They were people really doing something, right? Whether it's Peter Boyle, whether it's Dustin, you know, Dustin or Pacino or De Niro, they were showier. They were incredible. They were our favorite, you know, actors. But, and Redford's were much less showy. He didn't, he didn't do

• 1:33:45Speaker 05

  that really. He wasn't a, he wasn't big in that way. Um, so many things get tied to the period that they're in, right? The moods and tones.

• 1:33:56Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:33:56Speaker 05

  But to be a star for as long as he was a star, it's kind of amazing, right? And, and, and rare. And I think he chose it. I think he, by the thing you're talking about, he didn't take the character. He also didn't take those parts.

• 1:34:13Bill Simmons?

  Right. He loved the, he loved being like so many of his movies, he's a hero. Or there's a little bit of like that, like downhill racer is definitely a Cruz character. Right. Thirty years later Cruz is easy.

• 1:34:26Speaker 05

  Yes, a hundred percent.

• 1:34:27Bill Simmons?

  So he could do that downhill racer thing. He could be the sidekick like Butch Cassidy. He could do Jeremiah Johnson, which is basically nineteen seventy-three Revenant. You know, with like, it's not like the crazy director where you're sleeping in a bare stomach, but it was still like, it's one guy. Like, he could have been in Cast Away. I think he could have done that role, you know, like where it's just like, I'm gonna be the star of the movie. I'm gonna carry scenes by myself just by being interesting.

• 1:34:53Speaker 05

  He made it look effortless, maybe. I'm just trying to think of the question. Actually, I'm trying to give a second to your, to your question. And I'm just reviewing all these performances. And if I think about it, other than Sundance and Condor, most of these performances,

• 1:35:11Speaker 05

  he, he did make it look, he was an actor who looked like.

• 1:35:18Bill Simmons?

  I would say effortless.

• 1:35:20Speaker 05

  He, yeah, it was. He made it look kinda effortless. I mean, which is why The Natural, Roy Hobbs is such a great part for him, in a way. This guy with that swing, you know? And who looked a certain way.

• 1:35:32Bill Simmons?

  Believable swing.

• 1:35:33Speaker 05

  And he looked a certain way and you'd never know what this backstory was. And you, you wouldn't know that there was any trauma there or any of that shit, you know? And it, he had that swing. And that swing, in a way, is a great metaphor, right? For just looking like Redford looked and walking like he walked. And it, it kinda doesn't invite you to go, oh, look at the craft. Cause of course, to build a swing like that took a lot of effort in Roy Hobbs, right? It's like people watch Federer and they go, oh, it's gorgeous. Like, you know how much torque that guy's generating? You know how many thousands, millions of hours he's put in so that it looks like this beautiful effortless thing? But still, we watch it

• 1:36:18Speaker 05

  and we go, oh, graceful. Oh, effortless.

• 1:36:21Bill Simmons?

  It's interesting how that movie aged because. I think for the entire time I was in high school through college, through the first six years I had my column for the sports guy column, The Natural and Hoosiers were the two best sports movies of all time. And that those were the only two acceptable arguments. Those are the ones we argued about as like which one's better. And but then as the years passed, I don't feel like The Natural held up in that conversation in the same way. And I'm not really sure why. Maybe it's partly baseball, or maybe it was so far back, you know, or in like the 19

• 1:36:54Speaker 05

  It's an old fashioned movie in a way.

• 1:36:57Bill Simmons?

  It just got, it felt old after a while.

• 1:36:58Speaker 05

  Barry Levinson embraces, Barry Levinson, right? And he, I mean, he just embraced all that. So it's shot that way, like the gliding camera. It's, it doesn't feel like a contemporary movie in any way. It feels like, almost like it's a throwback, right?

• 1:37:11Bill Simmons?

  You and I have probably seen it a combined 700 times.

• 1:37:14Speaker 05

  I mean, I've certainly seen it plenty of times. I love it. But if you're asking why people don't, I don't know. Like, I bet you, I don't know if Sam has seen it incidentally. I'm in the room my son grew up in. I love that I'm throwing an entire Knicks wall at you.

• 1:37:30Bill Simmons?

  Even an entire Knicks wall.

• 1:37:32Speaker 05

  And we've asked him, you want us to repaint the room now that you're out of here and whatever? No, keep it, keep the Knicks up there. And also I'd say, you know, in the pro wrestling Simmons Pablo Torre back and forth, Sammy broke this huge story on Pablo today. So you

• 1:37:48Bill Simmons?

  What was the story?

• 1:37:49Speaker 05

  Oh, it's, it's, it's just an insane sports, it's an insane story about China stealing the brainwaves of athletes. It's crazy. You'll freak out. But Sam and Pablo did it together. So you had to have me on just to balance the, you know, you got to balance the scale.

• 1:38:05Bill Simmons?

  We see the old, the old guy version of, of the combo.

• 1:38:08Speaker 05

  Totally. We're like, we are going to bring our walkers in.

• 1:38:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:12Speaker 05

  And do our version.

• 1:38:13Bill Simmons?

  Hold on, it's time for bingo.

• 1:38:16Speaker 05

  I'm talking about The Natural. Yeah, talk about The Natural.

• 1:38:20Bill Simmons?

  You're the best damn hitter I ever saw. Suit up.

• 1:38:23Speaker 05

  Well, how many times do you think?

• 1:38:27Speaker 05

  That combined Pablo and Sam have seen the national at the most. I'm giving you two at the most.

• 1:38:34Bill Simmons?

  That's the thing. It's it's and it shifts where like Moneyball becomes the new natural. Right. And I think Moneyball for the last 15 years probably took the spot in a lot of ways.

• 1:38:43Speaker 05

  So are you an eight men? Do you love eight men out?

• 1:38:45Bill Simmons?

  I love it. I do. I love eight men out. So does Van Lathan.

• 1:38:49Speaker 05

  I would put eight men out might be the best baseball movie. It's possible.

• 1:38:53Bill Simmons?

  Another great ending movie.

• 1:38:55Speaker 05

  Yeah, incredible. Oh, my God.

• 1:38:56Bill Simmons?

  Shula Show, five years after.

• 1:38:58Speaker 05

  That's no incredible. That movie's that negotiation scene is one of the most incredible sports movie scenes. If you haven't seen eight men out, go see it.

• 1:39:07Bill Simmons?

  Quickly on Redford.

• 1:39:08Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 1:39:08Bill Simmons?

  So he has this run from 69 to 76. You mentioned earlier how he had this crazy eight year run. He blows up with Butch Cassidy and with downhill racer. Right. Just immediately becomes a mega star.

• 1:39:24Bill Simmons?

  In 73 and 74, he has Jeremiah Johnson, The Way We Were, The Sting, The Great Gatsby, and then they re-release Butch and Sundance that Butch Cassidy and Sundance Kid. And it becomes top 10 again. He has two of the top five in 73 and three of the top 10 in 1974. Out of the top 10 movies for two years, right? Five of the 20. And then he does Great Wild Dog Pepper, which is a flawed movie, but I kind of, I don't know, George Roy Hill, I kind of Goldman, I kind of enjoy it. Three Days of the Condor. And then All the President's Men, he's a he's an EP on that and wins Best Picture. It's about as good as it gets, man. And when you think of the taste of those movies, holy shit.

• 1:40:05Speaker 05

  Incredible. And it truly like a staggering run because he had that run. And then in 1980 is when he starts the directing.

• 1:40:13Bill Simmons?

  That's when he moves in the Ordinary People, Brubaker, The Natural, Out of Africa, Legal Eagles. That's all in seven years.

• 1:40:19Speaker 05

  But then also the four movies he directed, the first four, that's a really strong coming out of the gate, first four movies as a director.

• 1:40:26Bill Simmons?

  And then he has kind of a fun, a little bit drunk 1990s where he does River Runs Through It, makes Brad Pitt a star. That's it. Like, and weirdly like passes the torch because I think there's a lot of Brad Pitt, Robert Redford, millions of people talked about that. Sneakers, Indecent Proposal, Quiz Show gets nominated, then Up Close and Personal. And Indecent Proposal is the weirdest movie choice he made? It was the one where you're like, wow, he's in this, but he had built up so much credibility. And it's Demi Moore and Woody Harrelson. We did on rewatchables. I like that movie.

• 1:41:00Speaker 05

  But that's another, yeah, that's another example of a movie that like, he understood where the, he understood the era he was in.

• 1:41:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, and he also, you never see him like, he's not like banging away at Demi Moore in a scene like there's an elegance to it.

• 1:41:12Speaker 05

  He understood the where, where we were thinking as a culture about money and sex and um, men and women. Like he understood something, surfed it and made a huge hit. I mean, that's a huge hit movie, right? And it made him culturally relevant or kept him culturally relevant again.

• 1:41:27Bill Simmons?

  Well, and then Sundance was the other thing. And I think he was really smart about that. I'm only gonna have this run for so long and get replaced by somebody else. My looks are only gonna last for so long. What else can I do? How else can I be entrenched? And that's what leads to Sundance and all the other stuff he did. And then Sundance, you know, God only knows how many movies broke out of that.

• 1:41:49Bill Simmons?

  And, and it's easy to say now like, oh, well, somebody else would have created a Sundance. Well, nobody did. He did.

• 1:41:53Speaker 05

  No, he did. No, that guy put his money where his mouth was. And yeah, obviously if he includes Sundance, it's very hard, right off the top of my head to think of somebody who is on that level. I do think movie star to movie star, because you don't even think about the fact that Cruise is like 60 years old or whatever. Because, you know, these guys were making the big valedictory movie when they were in their 60s. And Cruise is still just a movie star. Like Cruise, the greatest movie star of all. To me, Cruise is the movie star of all time. Like he's just been.

• 1:42:25Bill Simmons?

  Sixties now, FYI.

• 1:42:27Speaker 05

  Yeah. That's what I'm saying. He's in his 60s. He's just been a movie star the whole time. So, but I, that's, I don't, it's so easy to forget it because he's still making movies like as though he's 40. But he's not.

• 1:42:42Bill Simmons?

  That goes to the self-awareness thing, which I would argue Cruise might not have a lot of self-awareness at this point. I don't think he should be doing Mission Impossible anymore. Like he should be trying to figure out, what's the next thing I can do that more reflects where I'm at in life? And it's like, he doesn't want to think about where he is in life, obviously. He just wants to keep being Ethan Hunt.

• 1:43:00Speaker 05

  Yeah, though I bet you he has an incredible, someone was saying this the other day, I think it's true, that he'll have an incredible kind of character, actor run, like a Newman-like run soon enough.

• 1:43:11Bill Simmons?

  I hope so. We're running out of time. He's, you know, Newman made the verdict when he was in his early 50s, I think. Might have been younger than that.

• 1:43:20Speaker 05

  But, but all right. I mean, you know, Tom did Magnolia.

• 1:43:26Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if he wants to open up that side anymore.

• 1:43:29Speaker 05

  Well, we'll see. I don't know. Who knows? I just think it's Redford and I think you can make the argument. It's like Redford and Cruz. You gotta put Clint, like, you know, Clint obviously also did a lot in various capacities that's pretty incredible.

• 1:43:45Bill Simmons?

  Clint's a good one. When you talk about like best careers, because the fact that he was still directing into his 80s and 90s is nuts.

• 1:43:52Speaker 05

  A lauded, incredible, you know, as a director, like him or not, you kind of can't argue with what he accomplished as a director. It's staggering. And in his own way and at a time, I mean, you know, he sort of directed movies way earlier and at a time when, yeah, like you said, they weren't just handing actors movies. So Clint's the other one in the combo.

• 1:44:14Bill Simmons?

  Clint's a good one for this too, because I asked Lorne Michaels once, like what, like hosts you weren't able to get or couldn't get that you would have loved to get. And Clint was the first one I think he mentioned.

• 1:44:24Speaker 05

  That's great.

• 1:44:25Bill Simmons?

  But it's interesting because Redford never hosted that show either. And it's two guys that always kept the mystique of, I'm a movie star. I'm over here. I carry myself a certain way. I don't, you know, you're only going to get these pieces of me.

• 1:44:38Speaker 05

  Like Leo, has Leo hosted? Maybe he must have hosted around, did he host around Romeo and Juliet or he never hosted?

• 1:44:44Bill Simmons?

  I don't think Leo ever hosted.

• 1:44:45Speaker 05

  Right. Because Leo is in that, he's the last one who has mystique, right? He's the last of those movie stars with true.

• 1:44:52Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if you could have mystique like that anymore in the society we have. It's almost like you have to, have to be out there connecting in all these different ways. Like you can't just be like, oh, I'll let my work speak for myself. Who does that?

• 1:45:05Speaker 05

  This is what I, I was thinking about this today when, when I saw that announcement about the masters, you know, the masters allowing Amazon to stream them, making a streaming deal. And at first I was like, whoa. But then I was like, right. Because you know what? Even the masters realizes, well, we made a deal with CBS at a certain point because everyone was watching television. This is where the world is. We got to go there. So you're probably, you're probably right about that, that maybe that model just doesn't even interest anybody anymore, that level of mystique.

• 1:45:34Bill Simmons?

  It's like when you figure out Rounders 2.

• 1:45:37Speaker 05

  Yes, sir.

• 1:45:37Bill Simmons?

  It can't just be like Rounders 1. You've got to use all these different pieces.

• 1:45:41Speaker 05

  Rounders 2 is going to have to come from like Sam's kid and then Levine's kid's kid and Pablo will probably fund it.

• 1:45:48Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna say, you have Pablo and Sammy investigating Mike McD for some sort of Caribbean poker situation.

• 1:45:55Speaker 05

  They'll have to fund with replicants of DNA of Matt and every, because by then they'll be able to, they can do any, I mean, they'll do any of it. Be easy.

• 1:46:02Bill Simmons?

  Sammy came to, we did a, we did a talk at Cambridge in April and Sammy showed up and I was very touched.

• 1:46:10Speaker 05

  He was very happy to, he was very happy to see you. Yeah, I remember. He was very happy.

• 1:46:15Bill Simmons?

  Everything else good?

• 1:46:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, I'm good. I'm, you know, I got, I'm dealing with a little appendicitis, but see it's the.

• 1:46:24Bill Simmons?

  But you were having a pod.

• 1:46:25Speaker 05

  This era, they don't just take it out right away always. They go, here, we're going to bomb you with antibiotics and then take it out in a few weeks. So, yeah, I'm fine. Hopefully my appendix doesn't explode, but.

• 1:46:35Bill Simmons?

  Save your energy for Quiz Show Rewatchables next month because you have my word, we're doing it in October.

• 1:46:41Speaker 05

  Can't wait. All right, Bill. Talk to you soon, buddy.

• 1:46:43Bill Simmons?

  Thanks, Koppelman.

• 1:46:44Speaker 05

  See you, man. Bye.

• 1:46:46Bill Simmons?

  All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mina and Koppelman. Thanks to Gahow and Eduardo as well. Don't forget the Rewatchables is up for this week. We did Tin Cup and you can find it wherever you get your podcasts. You can find it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. I am going to be back on Thursday with another, hopefully, awesome podcast. I feel like we're two for two this week. Great content. I will see you on Thursday.

• 1:47:25Bill Simmons?

  Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or visit rg-help.com. Call 1-887-897777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here, visit gambling helpline ma.org, or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 1-8778-HOPE-NY, or text HOPE-NY in New York. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller

• 1:48:09Bill Simmons?

  from Academy Award winner Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment, and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9, only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now. This episode is brought to you by Core Power Protein Shakes. You know how we always talk about the little things that separate great athletes?

• 1:48:53Bill Simmons?

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