516 - End Quote

On today’s episode, Karen covers the murder of Dorothy Donovan and Georgia tells the story of Gwyneth Paltrow’s ski collision trial. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:06Speaker 00

  OnDeck is built to back small businesses like yours. Whether you're buying equipment, expanding your team, or bridging cash flow gaps, OnDeck's loans up to $400,000 make it happen fast. Rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau and earning thousands of five-star TrustPilot reviews, OnDeck delivers funding you can count on. Apply in minutes at ondeck.com. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval.

• 0:34Speaker 01

  In New Orleans, truckers kept getting sideswiped the exact same way. When a man is found murdered under questionable circumstances related to these accidents, the rubber hits the road. And what the feds uncover is a complex scheme of staged wrecks, financial fraud, and a pair of conspiring lovers behind it. This is a story about fake accidents that led to real consequences. Listen to Over My Dead Body: Operation Sideswipe wherever you get your podcasts. Audible subscribers can binge all episodes early and ad-free right now. Join Audible in the Audible app or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

• 1:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Hello. It's Karen and Georgia, here to tell you about our brand-new limited series podcast, Two-Faced: John of God, produced by Exactly Right Media and Adonde Media.

• 1:21Georgia Hardstark?

  The series tells the story of a Brazilian spiritual healer who claimed his so-called miraculous surgeries could cure the incurable, drawing desperate people from around the world.

• 1:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Hosted by award-winning journalist Martina Castro, Two-Faced: John of God investigates how belief, power, and silence allowed this story to go on for decades and the brave survivors who fought to bring it to light.

• 1:42Georgia Hardstark?

  And we're proud to announce that Two-Faced: John of God will be released in both English and Spanish language versions, starting Wednesday, February 4th, with new episodes every Wednesday.

• 1:52Karen Kilgariff?

  You can follow Two-Faced: John of God now on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And for our Spanish-speaking listeners, Dos Caras: Juan de Dios is available on Espanol in your favorite podcast apps. Adios.

• 2:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 2:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 2:26Georgia Hardstark?

  To my favorite murder.

• 2:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 2:28Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 2:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We like podcasting, do you?

• 2:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Can you hear how much we like it in our voices?

• 2:34Karen Kilgariff?

  These are pro podcasting voices.

• 2:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, how are you, do we do this when the world is such a mess?

• 2:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 2:43Georgia Hardstark?

  How do I, you know?

• 2:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It is just the current, also, it's like, the world is a mess. Everything I see on TikTok is horrifying, but I don't want to look away.

• 2:53Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, I can't look, it's driving me, I'm going crazy. I was just laying in bed earlier, just fucking being like, everything's a mess. Now go put on makeup and fucking contour your cheekbones and podcast.

• 3:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But here's the thing, because we got to play in Minnesota before, in Minneapolis, watching what those people are doing and watching how those people are taking it back and being like, these are just thugs and we're going to fucking treat them like thugs. It's so inspiring and it's so like, they're just not, they're not letting up.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  And they're not letting fear hold them down.

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  No, they're, it's just very empowering for everybody else to be seen. I hope they know that.

• 3:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's just insanity.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck ICE, what are we doing? What is fucking happening?

• 3:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's clearly fuck ICE.

• 3:39Georgia Hardstark?

  What is fucking happening? It's the fucking Gestapo.

• 3:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's the Gestapo and they're attacking people who are intrinsic to this nation in every way. And not just like, people always talk about the work. It's like, these are people who were here first?

• 3:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking, how about that?

• 3:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Here first and then basically built up, like, they were talking about, there was some story out of Minneapolis, ICE agents eating dinner in a Mexican restaurant and then arresting the workers.

• 4:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 4:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Where it's like, well, then there is no line then.

• 4:11Georgia Hardstark?

  No, there is none.

• 4:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That there's no line, these people are berserking and they have to be treated as such.

• 4:16Georgia Hardstark?

  It's fucking terrifying and I'm a white woman, I'm not saying that I'm terrified for my, it's terrifying that this is happening to everyone, to other people, and I'm fucking so horrified by it. Also, it's, if you hate- People who are trying to make their families' lives better by coming to this country. Like, where, what's wrong with, where's your empathy? That's, they're not.

• 4:39Karen Kilgariff?

  What's wrong with you?

• 4:40Georgia Hardstark?

  What's wrong with you? I, I'm so, I'm so disgusted.

• 4:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, I, I saw a thing where there's all this trickery in those ICE contracts. So they think they're getting paid all this money, but if they quit, they have to pay it back.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 4:54Karen Kilgariff?

  And there's all, like, there's all these stipulations in there where it's like, of course, you're getting, this is a contract with Donald Trump. This man does not pay people. This is not a person who has ever historically.

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Kept his word. This is a fucking liar and a monster and a megalomaniac.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And a criminal.

• 5:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Dictator, pedophile, like, what?

• 5:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, God.

• 5:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Anyways, this is our first episode on Netflix.

• 5:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Guy.

• 5:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Are we allowed?

• 5:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So, are we allowed?

• 5:20Georgia Hardstark?

  This is unprecedented fucking times.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's, no, I'm glad you said it. And I feel like we've been saying it all the way along.

• 5:27Georgia Hardstark?

  We haven't, yeah. I, I just want to say it before, because my fucking story is so trivial and like, that I'm going to tell you today and so fucking unimportant in the scheme of things that I feel.

• 5:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see the Golden Globes? Like, no one said a word.

• 5:41Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Did you see Mark Ruffalo on the red carpet? He's had some shit, thank you.

• 5:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And Londa Sykes.

• 5:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, of course. Like.

• 5:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Fuck.

• 5:47Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. We can't not say anything.

• 5:49Karen Kilgariff?

  The fact that it's escalating.

• 5:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Exactly.

• 5:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, listen, here's what I am very inspired by. Because as I am addicted to TikTok, I can see what the children are doing and saying. And high schools are walking out and joining those protests in Minneapolis, like, or joining the people who are like, right on the front line, where those.

• 6:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Risking their lives.

• 6:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and also.

• 6:12Georgia Hardstark?

  For other people, you know?

• 6:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And harassing, I saw a woman who was just harassing people in San Diego who went in to submit for the job. And she was just like, it was like a comedy roast. She was just saying awful shit to them as they were walking away. And it is like the most satisfying, because she's like, what are you doing?

• 6:31Georgia Hardstark?

  What kind of person is like, yeah, that's what I want to do? Someone who shouldn't have any authority.

• 6:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. What if we change the subject to something so insane and different from it that it'll just feel like we're gonna break the bone here?

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  I've got it.

• 6:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And be topical.

• 6:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Heated rivalry. I've got it. We have, we are on the pulse of the fucking TikTok generation.

• 6:54Karen Kilgariff?

  We're on the pulse of the distraction generation where horrors rise up in front of us on a daily basis.

• 7:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And you have to go on with your day.

• 7:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And you go like, yes, yes. Where do we send our money? What do we do? How do we help? And then also, get this off me, please rinse my eyes. This is horrifying. Heated rivalry.

• 7:11Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it. It's so sexy and, oh my god, it's everything. And it took me a minute to like get into the first episode. It took me like three times to watch it because I kept getting these like funny memes about it that made me want to keep watching it. I'm so glad I stuck with it.

• 7:27Karen Kilgariff?

  That sounds kind of like a boy's excuse of like, I had to re-watch that sex scene over and over because I just, I don't know, I wasn't into it.

• 7:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, I didn't know I was into that, honestly. I know my friends are, my girlfriends are like, that's, they're fucking into that. And I didn't know I was until I watched this fucking show. And then I'm like, well.

• 7:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Kind of undeniable.

• 7:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And where's my porn now?

• 7:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just so, to watch it kind of unfold on social media, and it's my friend Jacob Tierney, who I've talked about on this podcast all the time. And it's like, his baby.

• 7:59Georgia Hardstark?

  What a success.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  There was a guy that was filming like the final episode and, did I say this already? He was standing on Santa Monica and all four bars were playing it and the bars were packed and there was people like spilling outside and he just was like going like this.

• 8:13Georgia Hardstark?

  In West Hollywood?

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. I was just like, oh my, oh my god, look. Look at what he made.

• 8:18Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just so incredible.

• 8:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's so deserving. He's so smart and talented and so hilarious and it's great.

• 8:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And then what's his name? Connor? Connor Story?

• 8:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Connor Story.

• 8:28Georgia Hardstark?

  God, damn it. He's, he's not even Russian.

• 8:32Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 8:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I didn't know these things when I started watching. I didn't know who it was and now I know everything about him.

• 8:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What a fucking cutie pie. Please come do a podcast at Exactly Right Media so we can just have you in the office every day.

• 8:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine what that guy's life is like right now? Where just everyone, girls, boys, whoever are just like, I want to sleep with you right now.

• 8:53Georgia Hardstark?

  And that ass is fucking Mothman level.

• 8:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Mothman statue level.

• 8:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 8:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Cakes. Oh, my God, I'm like.

• 9:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Cakes.

• 9:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm blushing and I'm objectifying someone and I feel.

• 9:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Georgia, you're a perv.

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  I feel bad about it.

• 9:06Karen Kilgariff?

  No, it's really fun. I think it's the kind of, you know, it's as things get nightmarish, then there's just like a little bit of.

• 9:13Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a distraction.

• 9:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's visual opiates to get away.

• 9:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely.

• 9:17Karen Kilgariff?

  But then emotional, like actually really deep.

• 9:20Georgia Hardstark?

  The like love scene, not them, but this other love scene is so fucking beautiful and lovely.

• 9:27Karen Kilgariff?

  And I. I have to be honest right now.

• 9:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 9:30Karen Kilgariff?

  I haven't seen.

• 9:30Georgia Hardstark?

  I know, that's why I'm excited for you.

• 9:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Liar, but because I'm like sitting here like, and it's great.

• 9:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 9:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But I was at my dad's house.

• 9:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. Good luck watching it with your dad.

• 9:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you want to try this?

• 9:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, oh, my God.

• 9:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you imagine?

• 9:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 9:44Karen Kilgariff?

  My dad who gets up and slams the newspaper down when like a sex scene starts, like that's the only way he's ever reacted my entire life. Where if you're watching a movie, he's like, good night.

• 9:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, you're like, can't.

• 9:55Karen Kilgariff?

  I didn't fucking make this movie.

• 9:58Karen Kilgariff?

  But that and then, you know, it's just like, I want to sit down and binge the entire thing.

• 10:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:03Karen Kilgariff?

  But I have to do it because I'm going to see it really soon.

• 10:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you got to.

• 10:05Karen Kilgariff?

  And my faking of like, yeah.

• 10:07Georgia Hardstark?

  It's great.

• 10:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 10:08Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, you know, it is.

• 10:09Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the smartest person and the funniest person, but also he started as a child actor when he was like seven years old.

• 10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  What was it? Did he write?

• 10:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Letter Kenny.

• 10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Letter Kenny. Okay.

• 10:17Karen Kilgariff?

  And Shorzy.

• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 10:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 10:19Georgia Hardstark?

  So that's.

• 10:20Karen Kilgariff?

  He wrote and directed.

• 10:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Letter Kenny and directed Shorzy and I think co-wrote it.

• 10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm hmm.

• 10:26Karen Kilgariff?

  But then I think he did Rivalry is all his. So and I remember.

• 10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  His name is like on and I'm like, I know that name.

• 10:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Created by. He read the, he's like, I don't know, there's these smutty hockey books and I think I'm going to try to option. And that was like, of course, two years ago or something like that. I know.

• 10:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 10:41Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very, very exciting.

• 10:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. We contain multitudes here. The justification of the juxtaposition.

• 10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  My favorite murder on this podcast.

• 10:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean.

• 10:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Is heated.

• 10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  This is the world everyone's in right now.

• 10:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like, here's the TV I love.

• 10:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's the.

• 10:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Tears streaming down their face.

• 11:00Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the end of the world. Here's some cute thing.

• 11:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 11:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Here's a cat meme.

• 11:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Can I just carve out one second to make a joke? Cause I know anytime I do this, people like yell at me and then compliment me.

• 11:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you talking about our beautiful fucking article in the Hollywood Reporter, written by journalist Mikey O'Connell? It was so cool.

• 11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's amazing if a journalist that's talking to us also listens. Cause then they're kind of like, I remember when a thing happened.

• 11:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Insider baseball.

• 11:25Karen Kilgariff?

  What's your version of it? We're like, yes, finally.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 11:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It was very nice. My joke that I want to say without anybody telling me anything.

• 11:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Is that in that first picture, it looks like I'm doing an impression of Peter Falk. I don't understand why I can't just take a picture and smile. It is, I'm, I've been traumatized. It's like.

• 11:43Georgia Hardstark?

  You are not.

• 11:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And it's like.

• 11:46Georgia Hardstark?

  See, you.

• 11:47Karen Kilgariff?

  I've been traumatized by show business.

• 11:49Georgia Hardstark?

  All I saw, can I tell you what I saw? And I was like, these beautiful photos with great lighting and great makeup. And I was like, my hands look old. Like, it's just, we just do that, you know?

• 11:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 11:58Georgia Hardstark?

  We just go to that immediately.

• 12:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. It's like you have to, it's like, what is the next problem I'm gonna solve?

• 12:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 12:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But I don't know. It's like, I, it's like I'm holding an invisible cigar in my mouth.

• 12:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't, I didn't see it.

• 12:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen.

• 12:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, look and listen at how complicated life can be.

• 12:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at how superficial we absolutely are in the face of everything else that we are also holding.

• 12:21Georgia Hardstark?

  And how lucky we are. And you guys have been so incredible on our 10 year anniversary week. Thank you for all the love and the beautiful comments and just so much.

• 12:29Karen Kilgariff?

  So nice.

• 12:30Georgia Hardstark?

  So much love.

• 12:31Karen Kilgariff?

  So nice. I also didn't mean to be so sneaky sliding that topic in, but it's, it feels like when it rains, it pours. And for us, we have been so lucky.

• 12:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh my God.

• 12:40Karen Kilgariff?

  From like tour on, things have just been so lovely. And I feel like humbled and grateful that they keep showing up for us.

• 12:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we know how fucking lucky we are.

• 12:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's my new thing.

• 12:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Maybe you should smoke a cigar. Maybe that's your new look.

• 12:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I think so.

• 12:57Georgia Hardstark?

  That's kinda hot.

• 12:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I have a, I'm getting that kinda Russian masseuse vibe going. So I think a cigar is really the only, the only option.

• 13:07Georgia Hardstark?

  All right. Well, so we do some Exactly Right Media. Should we do some business? Because, listen, we still have to run this company.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  We absolutely do.

• 13:14Georgia Hardstark?

  We have a podcast network called Exactly Right Media. And here's some business highlights.

• 13:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Over on Dear Movies, I love you. Millie and Casey are feeling the heat as they revisit the 1998 classic, How Stella Got Her Groove Back.

• 13:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 13:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Plus, screenwriter Chris Thomas Devlin joins them to talk about his area of expertise.

• 13:32Georgia Hardstark?

  And then over on I Said No Gifts, Bridger does his best not to make it a thing when Corn Wells forces a gift on him anyway. Brings him a gift. He said no gifts. They brought him a gift.

• 13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  They insist.

• 13:43Georgia Hardstark?

  They get into Toni Braxton's family using hinge dates as tour guides and whether rabbits are an underrated protein source. No.

• 13:51Karen Kilgariff?

  You've got to listen. And the trailer's out now for our newest podcast, Two-Faced: John of God. And it's our first dual-language podcast. So it will be available, of course, in English and now in Spanish. The Spanish feed is called Dos Cadas Wanda Dios. And it premieres February 4th. Follow everywhere you get your podcasts.

• 14:11Georgia Hardstark?

  You're so proud of this. You've done so much work on this.

• 14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so exciting.

• 14:15Georgia Hardstark?

  This has been in the works for so long. It's very exciting.

• 14:17Karen Kilgariff?

  It has. And Adante Media, the company that we're doing it with, Martina Castro is the journalist that, that's her company. She's the loveliest person. She's gonna be on the podcast so we can talk to her about it in person, obviously. But as a company, they have just been the coolest. They're so good at what they do and they're so fun and collaborative.

• 14:36Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't wait for the world to hear it.

• 14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's great.

• 14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  And then, as we said, My Favorite Murder is officially heading to Netflix. So on January 26th, six back catalog episodes will be up on the My Favorite Murder Netflix channel. Check it out. Followed by the first brand-new full episode on January 28th. And the first new minisode, I'm drawing a lot of dates at everyone. The first new minisode is on January 30th. They're all streaming exclusively on Netflix.

• 15:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Exclusively on Netflix, where they now show a video podcast. Here's what I love about this. Every other episode, it's just gonna go like our normal thing. So it's a full episode and then minisodes, full episode, minisodes. I love the idea that people get to, like, a really broad group of people could get to try out the little taster of minisodes. I think people are gonna really like minisodes.

• 15:27Georgia Hardstark?

  And I think that means we're gonna get a lot more great emails sent in of minisodes. Like, it's just gonna ramp up the, like,

• 15:33Karen Kilgariff?

  You know what it means?

• 15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Stories after stories.

• 15:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we're gonna need a mailroom. Okay, over in merch corner, Nicole is here to remind us that our 2025 tour merch is now available in the Exactly Right store. Go grab your tour hats and totes and all the apparel from our live shows.

• 15:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, at where?

• 15:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Over on exactlyrightstore.com. Quantities are limited, so please rush and push other people out of the way.

• 15:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, and we have a quick merch show-off thing. You have these fucking adorable pins.

• 16:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Everybody loves these pins. Oh, wait, and they are, you know what they are?

• 16:07Georgia Hardstark?

  What are they?

• 16:08Karen Kilgariff?

  They are magnets.

• 16:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Magnets! How do they even work? And then you get a cute little case to put your joints in, too.

• 16:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Magnets.

• 16:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, magnets.

• 16:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, what are we doing?

• 16:16Georgia Hardstark?

  We've got magnets.

• 16:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Magnets.

• 16:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Magnets. A fuck politeness koozie here, that's so cute. My girly pink.

• 16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:25Georgia Hardstark?

  But I, I always get, like, it's either black or pink, and each of us get, like, because Karen wants all black stuff. I want all pink stuff. Gray is the, like, common denominator one, I think, right?

• 16:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially with their nice, with a nice red flag.

• 16:38Georgia Hardstark?

  That's right, so the MFM flag, red flag looks amazing, and I have this pink fuck politeness, definitely getting one for Vince.

• 16:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Say that.

• 16:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Because he is comfortable in his masculinity and will wear pink.

• 16:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 16:49Georgia Hardstark?

  He's not a fucking toxic male.

• 16:51Karen Kilgariff?

  He's a real close horse, you know? He loves, he has real style.

• 16:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 16:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He does. Him and his, um,

• 16:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Wife?

• 16:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Penguinship. You wanna get in on that?

• 17:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, anyway.

• 17:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 17:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Merch. Business is over.

• 17:05Karen Kilgariff?

  Capitalism will save us all.

• 17:07Georgia Hardstark?

  That's the other thing, is like, can I stop consuming in 2026? I'm just not, I don't need any more of it. I don't need any more organizational fucking things and fucking plastic bullshit and fucking things that are gonna fix my life.

• 17:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta tell you, I'm very much on that track with you. I was gonna buy this little two-level shelf to put coffee mugs on.

• 17:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 17:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And I was like, what am I?

• 17:30Georgia Hardstark?

  They can just go on the surface.

• 17:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't need this. Stop it. I have to like pare it all the way back to lip balms and lip liners.

• 17:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Because it's like, it's just a little something new every once in a while. But like, the mass consumption is not working for me.

• 17:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Things aren't gonna fix your life. Cats and dogs are.

• 17:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's really true.

• 17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Do that.

• 17:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Take them outside.

• 17:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Foster them.

• 17:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 17:52Georgia Hardstark?

  So you don't have to commit, because we know you are a commitment phobe. That's totally fine.

• 17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Cut to me with the 10 dogs in a room. Like, what?

• 18:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Adoption fail on all of them. Uh-oh. Okay, stop it. Okay, this is the, all right, here we go. I'm just, I'm thinking of people watching this on Netflix for the first time, not knowing what this podcast is, and just being so fucking confused.

• 18:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Click away now while you can.

• 18:14Georgia Hardstark?

  This is like, this is pretty much what it's like.

• 18:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Actually, but here's also what it's like.

• 18:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 18:19Karen Kilgariff?

  On episode 402, entitled "Staunch Women," I covered the story of civil rights pioneer Claudette Colvin. She was basically the first Rosa Parks. She did it when she was 15 years old. She would not get up when some white person demanded her seat on an Alabama bus. And she died on January 13th of natural causes. She was 86 years old.

• 18:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 18:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And her namesake foundation released this statement saying, quote, "It is with profound sadness that the Claudette Colvin Foundation and family announce the passing of Claudette Colvin, a beloved mother, grandmother, and civil rights pioneer. She leaves behind a legacy of courage that helped change the course of American history."

• 19:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 19:02Karen Kilgariff?

  So sad.

• 19:02Georgia Hardstark?

  What a, what a legacy.

• 19:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, and someone to read about and study. Listen to this episode and, and learn how to resist.

• 19:11Speaker 04

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• 19:40Georgia Hardstark?

  There are plenty of things that keep you up at night. Your sleep tracker shouldn't be one of them.

• 19:44Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 19:49Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 19:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Hatch Sleep Clock does it differently.

• 19:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It tracks your sleep from your nightstand. No ring, wristband, or judgmental score waiting for you in the morning.

• 20:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Instead, you'll get personalized insights to understand your sleep and recommendations to build a routine you'll love night after night.

• 20:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Fall asleep to the next chapter of an audiobook like The Odyssey, a nervous system reset meditation, or a calming sound bath.

• 20:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 20:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Hatch Sleep Clock.

• 20:21Karen Kilgariff?

  The sleep tracker designed to get you to sleep. Available now on hatch.co.

• 20:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 20:27Karen Kilgariff?

  This podcast is brought to you by Squarespace. Turning something you love into a career is exciting. Then come the invoices. Lucky for you, Squarespace can handle the business stuff so you can focus on your business. From consultations to events and experiences, you can showcase your skills with a customizable website designed to attract clients and grow your business. With Squarespace's collection of cutting-edge design tools, anyone can build a beautiful, professional, online presence that perfectly fits their brand or business. Get paid on time with professional invoices and online payments. Plus, streamline your workflow with built-in appointment scheduling and email marketing tools. Head to squarespace.com/murder for a free trial.

• 21:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And when you're ready to launch, use offer code MURDER to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Goodbye.

• 21:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm very excited about this story because it is truly a classic true crime case. And it's also a classic forensic files. So you and I probably have seen it recently because when we were on the road, there were some classic forensic files that I was watching.

• 21:32Georgia Hardstark?

  It's crazy to me that people bring their computers and watch movies in hotel rooms. Like you have forensic files on 24/7. What are you doing?

• 21:39Karen Kilgariff?

  From 9pm on. Like it's a lock.

• 21:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Order those chicken strips and a Caesar salad and fucking.

• 21:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Cookies.

• 21:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Cookies, go.

• 21:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay. This story begins in Kent County, Delaware, which is in the Dover metro area. We rarely talk about Delaware.

• 21:54Georgia Hardstark?

  No, we don't really do that, do we?

• 21:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And we've never gone.

• 21:57Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I dated someone from there and.

• 21:59Karen Kilgariff?

  You're still mad about it?

• 22:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Scrapple. That's all I know about it.

• 22:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Scrapple. That was his name?

• 22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Delaware.

• 22:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey Delaware. Okay, it's near the town of Harrington. Okay, so this is the night of June 23rd, 1991.

• 22:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 22:15Karen Kilgariff?

  You're 11.

• 22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, I am.

• 22:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh. It's around midnight. A 41-year-old man named Charles Holden pulls up to his trailer after finishing his shift at a factory job, and he sees a man lurking nearby. He drives to a payphone. So this is back in the time of payphones.

• 22:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure.

• 22:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Before cell phones. So weird.

• 22:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Who?

• 22:34Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. So he calls 911. He tells the dispatcher, there's a guy lurking.

• 22:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Just lurking?

• 22:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Lurking outside my house.

• 22:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, okay, got it, got it.

• 22:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, exactly. And then he asks for a police escort home. So he's really freaked out. When the dispatcher asks Charles if he's aware of anyone else being on the property, he tells them his 70-year-old mother, Dorothy Donovan, lives in the farmhouse that his trailer is next to. So it's like his family property. Charles is certain this person that he saw outside was not his mother. He specifically tells the dispatcher, quote, "I want to get someone there as soon as I can because I don't want him breaking into my mother's." So he's scared.

• 23:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 23:11Karen Kilgariff?

  The police are dispatched to the property, and what they find inside the farmhouse is an absolute nightmare.

• 23:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Dorothy Donovan has been murdered and as Detective Captain Greg Nolt will later remember, quote, "It was a very bloody and brutal crime scene, blood everywhere, blood spatters throughout the bedroom." Jesus. From that night, when the investigation begins, this case will sprawl out over several years and take some unbelievable twists and turns as police try to piece together what happened to this woman on that night in early summer in Harrington, Delaware. This is the story of the hunt for Dorothy Donovan's killer. Wow. And the main source used for the story today is the 2008 episode of Forensic Files entitled Stranger in the Night, along with several articles that ran in the Delaware-based news journal newspaper, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

• 24:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so when investigators inspect Dorothy's farmhouse that night, they find the backdoor window has been shattered, so the presumption is the murderer broke in by reaching through that broken glass and unlocking the door from the inside. And one of the reasons they think that is because there's blood smeared around the scene, and forensic analysts conclude that that blood does not belong to Dorothy. Investigators also find several fingerprints and a partial palm print that are not hers. Police run through potential motives. They don't think it's a botched robbery because nothing's missing from the house. Dorothy's purse is like right there. There's the possibility that it's a sexually motivated attack since Dorothy's body was

• 24:43Karen Kilgariff?

  discovered in her bedroom, positioned in a way that leads investigators to consider this possibility. But really, the sheer brutality of this crime, with Dorothy having been stabbed more than two dozen times. Oh, my God. All about her face and chest is indicative of overkill, which suggests that this is a very personal and a very angry attack. An FBI profiler quoted by the news journal newspaper goes so far as to say, quote, "Some stranger did not break into the house, murder her, and leave. This is someone who knows the victim, knows her well, and knows that they can come here and that she will be the only victim in the house." Wow. End quote. Okay. We have to start saying "end quote" because we're on that plane. Oh, shit. Are we journalists now?

• 25:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. At least we have to say "end quote." No, I don't like it. Really? No. You want to keep it loose and open? Yeah, you can tell by the tone of voice. Well, that's really true. I don't like "end quote." Write in if you think this whole thing has been a long quote since 2016. Because I never say unquote.

• 25:44Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't either. I don't want to.

• 25:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 25:45Georgia Hardstark?

  The end.

• 25:46Karen Kilgariff?

  The end. So, hearing this by an FBI profiler is very confusing to Dorothy's family because they're adamant, this woman has no enemies. She lived a quiet life in her farmhouse after losing her husband a few years before, and she's a beloved mom of three and a grandmother to seven. She does not have enemies. So, the motive's unclear, but one person who is being looked at very closely is Dorothy's son, Charles, who made the 911 call. It's said that when Charles first sees his mother's body, he says, quote, "I can't believe he killed her. I can't believe he killed her." Yeah. So, the investigators, it piques their interest because it's very specific. When they ask Charles who he is, he tells them

• 26:29Karen Kilgariff?

  he actually recognized the man he saw lurking on the property that night. He says he doesn't actually know him by name, but he claims that they'd had a chance encounter earlier the same evening. So, he explains that after he clocked out from his 4 to 11 p.m. shift at the factory job that day, he decides to stop at Hardee's to pick up some dinner. Now, let's just take a break for a second so I can explain that Hardee's is the Midwest Carl's Jr.

• 26:55Georgia Hardstark?

  You know how recently I ate the Midwest Carl's Jr.?

• 26:59Karen Kilgariff?

  How recently?

• 27:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Two nights ago.

• 27:00Karen Kilgariff?

  What? Did you travel?

• 27:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm depressed.

• 27:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 27:06Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, I have depression.

• 27:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I see.

• 27:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You know.

• 27:09Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm sorry. Fast food gets it done for me.

• 27:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Carl's Jr. is on another level for me. Like, it's a different.

• 27:16Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you get?

• 27:17Georgia Hardstark?

  A fucking Western bacon cheeseburger since I was a child. The skinny little girl pounding a fucking Western bacon cheeseburger and onion rings like nobody's business.

• 27:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So, you get onion rings on the side even though there's onion rings on that burger?

• 27:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 27:29Karen Kilgariff?

  What kind of rebel are you?

• 27:32Georgia Hardstark?

  A depressed one.

• 27:33Karen Kilgariff?

  A depressed one with depression? It works, though. Like, first of all, what a great idea. Onion rings and barbecue sauce, amazing. Those milkshakes?

• 27:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, no.

• 27:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Have you?

• 27:44Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I can't.

• 27:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Do you dare?

• 27:46Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 27:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Get in there. It could cure your depression.

• 27:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm the one who's like, won't even have a soda. You know what I mean? Like, I'm just here for the food. Like, I don't want an unhealthy soda.

• 27:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Did I tell you the story of the time I was in the Wendy's drive thru on Vermont? And the guy was, I ordered my thing and I was like, uh, whatever cheeseburger and large fries and a medium uh, diet. And he was like, why don't you just get the regular? And I literally let it hang for like five seconds. I was like, are you fucking kidding me dude? And he was like, oh, sorry. Yep. Your total is nine dollars. You didn't go for the? Sure. Look, look at me right now, though. What am I fucking talking about? I'm literally drinking a fucking full.

• 28:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, whether it's this, this is filled with beet juice. Go fuck yourself. We all get to do whatever we want. Yeah. I have a fucking full fat Coca-Cola right now. Got to. And I'm enjoying it. Whatever you want. Whatever you want to get you through. Full permission to our listenership, get yourself through. Yeah. Fight, fight, fight. Go, go, go. And we're back. So he stops at Hardee's, the Midwest Carl's Jr. To get his food, goes inside. But then when he comes back out, he's crossing the parking lot and he is intercepted by a hitchhiker. So that's so weird. Should I always pronounce it that way? Charles describes him as a black man in his 30s with oversized glasses, standing around five foot nine, wearing a plaid shirt and brown dress pants.

• 29:08Karen Kilgariff?

  He claims that this man asked him for a ride to Georgetown, Delaware, which is like 25 miles away. And Charles told him he wasn't gonna drive all that way, but that he would take him down the road a few miles in the direction he was going, if that would help him. And according to Charles, the hitchhiker took him up on this offer. When Charles is about half a mile from his own home, he tells the hitchhiker, it's time for him to get out of the truck. But instead of getting out, Charles says this man's mood abruptly changes. He becomes irate and starts attacking Charles, demanding that he drive him all the way to Georgetown. Charles tells investigators, he jumped out of the truck. He starts running away from the hitchhiker, who's now chasing him with a screwdriver that he took off the floor of Charles' truck.

• 29:52Karen Kilgariff?

  And now he's threatening to kill Charles if he doesn't keep driving him all the way to Georgetown. So Charles says, he tells the guy, okay, fine, I will do it. I'll drive you there. He calms him down a little bit. They both start walking back to the truck. And then Charles does the classic move where he just takes off running, jumps into the truck and takes off.

• 30:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus.

• 30:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And it works. So he basically leaves this like violent hitchhiker standing in the middle of the street with a screwdriver in his hand. So Charles says he's terrified that this man is going to follow the direction of the truck on foot, since it's only like a half a mile away from where he lives. And that if he sees Charles's truck on the property, he's going to be like, I'm going to go there. That's where he is. So Charles drives around for 20 minutes before he loops back and heads to the property. But when he pulls into the driveway, he sees the hitchhiker lurking. And that's when he drives away, sees a payphone and makes the call to 911. So the detectives hear this story out from Charles, but once he's done, they waste no time telling him that they don't believe a single word of it.

• 30:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so many coincidences. It's very rambling and random. And one of the officers actually tells Charles, quote, "Only an idiot would believe that story," unquote. And it does sound unlikely, especially when you consider this hitchhiker would have walked half a mile to Charles's house, passing several other homes along the way, breaking in and brutally murdering a defenseless woman sleeping inside. But he, the truck isn't there. He wouldn't know it was the man who he got into this fight with his mother. And then it's like, what is that all supposed to be a coincidence?

• 31:26Georgia Hardstark?

  And then also like this fight he got into would explain why there's like scratches and stuff like that. How convenient.

• 31:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. And of course, there have been tens of thousands of crimes reported in this country where white people blame black people, a black man for the crime. And they're lying. So they basically say, we don't buy it. Charles holds firm. He's adamant he's telling the truth. When investigators remain suspicious, they tell Charles, take a polygraph test, and Charles says no. So that's not really surprising in this day and age because at this point, as we've talked about a lot, we know that polygraphs aren't very reliable. But this is 1991. Yeah. Where it's kind of- Suspicious if you don't. If you say no, it's suspicious. Everybody's like, this is a lock, just like blood spatter. What are you, what's the problem? Totally. So from here, police have to continue building the case.

• 32:17Karen Kilgariff?

  They create a composite sketch of Charles's purported hitchhiker based on his description. They put it out to the public. And actually, if you look through old newspaper articles about Dorothy Donovan's murder, you can see this composite sketch. It doesn't seem to have generated many leads. Meanwhile, the medical examiner's report comes back with more details about Dorothy's murder. It's based on the physical evidence that's being processed at the crime scene, but these findings only bring more questions. For example, the medical examiner is unable to find any evidence confirming sexual assault. So the sexual angle is gotten rid of as a motive. And actually, they start to think that maybe her body was like posed in that slightly suggestive

• 33:00Karen Kilgariff?

  way to throw police off and lead them down that path. Then, and it's still early in the investigation, police get bombshell information. They learn that not long before Dorothy's death, she's taken out an accidental death insurance policy. Uh oh. And the beneficiary is her son, Charles. So then the detectives find out Charles is in debt. Who isn't? Right. Although we don't know how much, but it does point to financial motivation. The police continue circling Charles as a suspect, but the tests show that his blood is not a match for the blood that was left at the scene. And the palm prints are clearly not a match. The police consider the theory now that Charles could have hired somebody else to commit the murder. Right.

• 33:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And then just go in for a cut of that life insurance payout. But the police don't have enough to arrest him, so they try to find out if there's anything about his hitchhiker story that is real. If this person actually exists, he could either be the murderer or he could be Charles's accomplice. So maybe the hitchhiker story is Charles' way of covering for himself if anyone saw him and that man together that night. Oh, yeah. Okay. So detectives take that composite sketch of the man. They track down several people who were at Hardee's the night of Dorothy's murder, and they are able to confirm a huge piece of the story, which is that there was in fact a man in the parking lot that night approaching people and asking for a ride. Okay. And he looks like the guy in the composite sketch.

• 34:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Investigators compile photos of men with criminal records who resemble this hitchhiker, down to the oversized glasses. And every person in this photo lineup is wearing glasses, so when Charles has shown the pictures, he picks out the one that he believes was the hitchhiker. Police also showed these photos to other witnesses, and three of them identify that same man that Charles does. He's a 33-year-old black man living in Harrington, miles from the murder scene. He has a criminal record, but he has never committed a violent crime. He's been convicted of forgery and petty theft, but now, given the multiple positive identifications, police think they might have their man. But when the officers show up to this man's house to question him, they immediately know

• 35:08Karen Kilgariff?

  that he couldn't be Dorothy's killer, because it's only a week after the murder. This man opens the door, and he has a full beard. Huh. So not a single witness mentioned anything about this hitchhiker having a beard. Yeah. It's improbable this man could have grown one in a matter of days, so he is off the list. Okay. And then, when they run his prints, the man's palm prints are not a match. On top of all of that, he has an alibi that completely checks out. So, few for that guy not actually, you know, being wrongfully arrested and committed to jail. They've done it for less. Yeah. You know? For real. So, that's now a dead end, and without modern-day DNA technology or forensic tools, these leads

• 35:50Karen Kilgariff?

  dry up, the investigation peters out, months pass, and then years. Investigators still believe that Charles has something to do with his mother's death. Can you imagine, like, the rest of his family just having to sit there, not sure? You're psychic, because that is what I'm about to tell you about. Charles maintains his innocence, but the suspicion grows in his family. Oh. And his own sisters struggle to believe the story. Shit. Charles becomes more isolated as time passes, and then around 2006, investigators working the case get access to CODIS for the first time. We've talked about it on the show a lot. It's the National DNA Database that they were developing since 1991, but a lot of people didn't have access to it in the beginning.

• 36:35Karen Kilgariff?

  So this was the first time investigators around the country had access. And it's helped solve countless crimes and cold cases over the years. So more than 10 years after Dorothy Donovan is murdered, the mystery blood sample from her farmhouse is inputted into CODIS, and investigators finally get a match.

• 36:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 36:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It belongs to a man with a lengthy criminal record who's served time in Maryland around the late 1990s for murder. In the years since Dorothy's death, this man has been convicted on drug and robbery charges, and he served a stint in prison for that. He'd since been released, and it takes police more than two months to track him down. And when they do, they track him down to a home 40 miles away from Dorothy Donovan's home.

• 37:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Shit.

• 37:18Karen Kilgariff?

  The man's named Gilbert Cannon. He's in his late 30s. He looks a lot like the man in the composite sketch. But when police bring him in for questioning, he denies any involvement. Investigators start to confront him with the piles of evidence against him, including DNA and print matches, and he buckles. He tells investigators exactly what happened that night in June of 1991. And what he tells them is basically exactly what Charles said. Yes.

• 37:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, how frustrating.

• 37:46Karen Kilgariff?

  So horrible.

• 37:46Georgia Hardstark?

  I told you exactly what happened, like, beat by beat, and you...

• 37:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And you went...

• 37:52Georgia Hardstark?

  And it sounds fucking made up. It does.

• 37:54Karen Kilgariff?

  It sounds entirely made up. And luckily Gilbert Cannon did corroborate it, because he could have just done that thing where he's like, deny, deny, and go to jail, which a lot of them do.

• 38:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 38:05Karen Kilgariff?

  He was in the Hardee's parking lot that night. He was high on cocaine. He was looking to score more, presumably in Georgetown, and that's why he needed a ride there. He corroborates the entire rest of the story. We've heard Charles offers to drive him a few miles up the road. Gilbert attacks Charles with the screwdriver. They fight in the street. Charles offers him the full ride, and then he runs back to his truck and gets away. Then Gilbert fills in the rest of the gaps. He says he kept walking down that road, and then finally he decided he needed to find somewhere to sleep. He tells investigators he passed several houses, but they all had their lights on, so he did not try them.

• 38:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Don't tell me it was just a fucking coincidence.

• 38:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep. He arrived at Dorothy's house by sheer coincidence. The lights weren't on. It was just as Charles had feared when he saw the man lurking and drove away.

• 38:55Georgia Hardstark?

  He killed him.

• 38:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Gilbert broke in through the back door between the sound of the window being smashed and the creaky farmhouse floors. Dorothy wakes up. Gilbert is in a drug frenzy, truly, and just attacks her and stabs her with the screwdriver and murders her brutally and horribly. Gilbert was fleeing the scene when Charles arrived home.

• 39:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 39:16Karen Kilgariff?

  It doesn't seem like Gilbert understands that the same man who'd given him a ride and that he'd gotten in a fight with

• 39:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  was now the one pulling in this driveway.

• 39:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 39:25Karen Kilgariff?

  He tells police he acted alone and that he picked the home at random. And when police tell him that it was that same man's mother that he murdered, he is shocked. Dorothy's daughter and one of Charles' sisters, Diana, tells Forensic Files that Gilbert being shocked was, quote, "such a relief to us." That showed us that Charles was not connected to him.

• 39:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because he could have lied and said, yep, he hired me, so he gets a lighter sentence.

• 39:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yep.

• 39:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I was just a dupe.

• 39:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 39:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 39:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And then the guilt you would feel that you did not believe in your own brother, even though it would be very hard to believe.

• 40:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, all these things that are happening, it's evidence. And it's like, the part about the death insurance was, is terrible.

• 40:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The randomness of it is what's so unbelievable.

• 40:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 40:13Georgia Hardstark?

  But it's true.

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  After confessing, Gilbert's arrested. And the following year, 2007, he pleads guilty to Dorothy's murder. When he does, it will have been 16 years since Dorothy Donovan was murdered. Gilbert sentenced to life in prison without parole, and Dorothy's surviving family members are left to pick up the pieces after years of overwhelming grief, losing their mom, along with the family tension over the doubt around Charles's involvement. Finally, Charles Holden is exonerated, but nothing can undo the nightmare of being implicated in your own mother's death

• 40:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 40:45Karen Kilgariff?

  for 16 years. Little has been documented about how Charles felt during all of this. Understandably, he had no interest in talking to the press, but a 2007 News Journal piece briefly touches on his experience, quoting his sister Brenda Alexander, who says, quote,

• 41:02Karen Kilgariff?

  At the time of Cannon's arrest, Charles's sisters acknowledged that they were hard pressed to understand why their brother would give a ride to a stranger. In this case, one with an extensive Delaware criminal history dating 1981. His generosity caused a rift among the siblings. But according to Alexander, "An attempt at reconciliation began Tuesday. We're working on it," she said. "We were all in court and we all went to eat afterwards. We're working on it, but it's going to take time."

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 41:29Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote. That's the incredibly tragic story of the murder of Dorothy Donovan and the exoneration of her son, Charles Holden.

• 41:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, I haven't seen that, Forensic Files.

• 41:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:39Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, I didn't know that story, that's...

• 41:42Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like the thing people fear about being out in the country that, like, as far as I know, growing up out in the country, never happens. And then all of a sudden, this insane...

• 41:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Unbelievable.

• 41:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Horrible story, yeah.

• 41:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Almost, yeah, that's, wow.

• 41:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 41:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Great job.

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• 42:28Georgia Hardstark?

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• 42:32Karen Kilgariff?

  You know that feeling, laying in bed, staring at the ceiling, counting all the times you said something weird.

• 42:37Georgia Hardstark?

  And then you wake up and check your sleep score. Now you have to start your day knowing that you failed at sleeping.

• 42:42Karen Kilgariff?

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• 42:50Karen Kilgariff?

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• 42:57Georgia Hardstark?

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• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you can find out which gives you 20 more minutes of deep sleep each night.

• 43:07Georgia Hardstark?

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• 43:08Karen Kilgariff?

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• 43:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye. The Hulu original series Phony is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+

• 43:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Sunny's life is pretty great, until he wakes up from a car accident to a world that looks exactly like his with one exception: his mom.

• 43:27Georgia Hardstark?

  To everyone else, she's the same Ellen they've known their whole lives, but for Sunny, he knows something is off.

• 43:32Karen Kilgariff?

  As his relationship with his mother begins to crack in unsettling ways, he's forced to question what happens when the perfect mom becomes a perfect stranger.

• 43:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this all in his head, or is there really an imposter in his house?

• 43:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Starring five-time Emmy nominee Connie Britton and Sam Nevola, this small town is hiding the mother of all mysteries just beneath the surface.

• 43:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Watch the Hulu original series Phony.

• 43:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply.

• 43:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 44:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, great job.

• 44:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 44:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Very classic true crime. This isn't that. This is completely different than that. This is-

• 44:12Karen Kilgariff?

  The Origin of Hardees. Oh, I'd love to hear that.

• 44:16Georgia Hardstark?

  No, it's worse. This is the story of the Gwyneth Paltrowsky collision trial.

• 44:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my god. What a joy.

• 44:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 44:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on. What a great idea.

• 44:30Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not my idea. Molly and Ally get full credit for that.

• 44:34Karen Kilgariff?

  You lunatics. I'm so excited.

• 44:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And I was like, okay, I guess.

• 44:37Karen Kilgariff?

  It's such a good idea, because here's the thing. I think there was something else big happening in the news at the same time where I really there has always been for 10 years. But I felt like I couldn't focus on that the way I wanted to.

• 44:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you just heard little blips about it, not like a whole thing about it, but you're about to hear a whole fucking thing about it.

• 44:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Bring it to me, please.

• 44:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So it's late January 2019, and we're in Park City, Utah.

• 45:01Karen Kilgariff?

  You love to summer there, right?

• 45:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I summer all the time in the snow. Why would I summer in the snow? Who does that? Rich people.

• 45:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 45:09Georgia Hardstark?

  A 72-year-old retired optometrist named Terry Sanderson, or more likely one of his lawyers, files a lawsuit in Utah's civil court that immediately generates headlines around the world. His lawsuit is against Deer Valley, a nearby ski resort known for its wealthy guests and impeccably groomed runs. It's also against the person he collided with, a person we all know from Shakespeare and Love and Sliding Doors and, of course, Goop.

• 45:39Georgia Hardstark?

  This is the story of the Gwyneth Paltrowski collision trial.

• 45:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing. Amazing. But also, it has the feeling already. And I think it's like, this guy hasn't done well in the public eye for this. It's you saying that he sued Deer Valley and her. It's like, ah, sue everyone. You can see it, like, him breaking down in the parking lot, almost.

• 45:58Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it's kind of a sad story.

• 46:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:01Georgia Hardstark?

  That I feel like it is, but.

• 46:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 46:03Georgia Hardstark?

  You tell me. The main source of the story is reporting from NBC, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. Okay, so, we're back to the day it all happened. It's February 26, 2016, and we're at Deer Valley on a green run, which I think is, you know, easy.

• 46:18Karen Kilgariff?

  For babies?

• 46:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Called Vandana. And this is one of the easiest runs on the mountain. It's a gentle, wide slope that connects the summit to the Empire Canyon Lodge, where you would find me if I were forced to be there.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, I'm telling you, here's our cancellation. I fucking hate skiing so much.

• 46:37Georgia Hardstark?

  It was an activity that my single dad took us to do because he didn't know what else to do with us.

• 46:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Like a big bear?

• 46:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And that's the last time I did it, and I have no interest in it at all. He took us a few times.

• 46:48Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just so out of control. Like, and I get that that's the appeal. It's very, like, surfer and that energy of, like, let's ride it and let's see what happens. I hate let's see what happens energy for things like that, for, like, physical things.

• 47:01Georgia Hardstark?

  It was fun. I enjoyed it as a kid. As an adult, I have no interest.

• 47:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Did I tell you the story of, with my ex, we went skiing one time because he had a big skiing family? And I was like, I don't want to do this. I was like, come on, my dad will teach you. He's a really good teacher. We literally spent, like, seven minutes on the kid's slope, and then he took me up to a thing, and I just, like, started going down, and my legs locked up. And I was like, I can't, I can't go anymore. I had to get taken down.

• 47:27Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 47:28Karen Kilgariff?

  On the ski patrols, like, laying down like that, staring up at the sky. It was so embarrassing and so hilarious.

• 47:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. So, Gwyneth is 44 at the time, and is on the mountain with her two kids, Apple, who's 12, and Moses, who's 10. Oh, Moses, like, my cat. And she's with her boyfriend, producer Brad Falchuk, who they're now married, and a ski instructor named Eric Christensen. The kids have been getting a lesson from Eric, and Gwyneth and Brad had been skiing with them. So of kind of a family lesson together.

• 48:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Sure.

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  What happens next is up for debate. According to Gwyneth, she's gently skiing down the slope.

• 48:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Did she use the word gently immediately?

• 48:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Well, it's like an easy run. So it's not like you have to be pro and you'd be going faster and like that.

• 48:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 48:15Georgia Hardstark?

  So she's skiing down the slope, and then she sees two skis appear between her skis. And then she feels someone press up behind her and kind of grunt. And then the two of them both crashed to the ground. So almost like someone came up behind her and plowed into her. Gwyneth and the man both freeze for a minute. And then she yells at the guy who crashed into her. She later says she yelled at him because she thought in the moment he had done it on purpose. She's a famous person, and I'm sure she gets harangued in public all the time. So she kind of thought it was one of those experiences.

• 48:49Karen Kilgariff?

  And what did she yell at him, goop?

• 48:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Goop.

• 48:56Georgia Hardstark?

  And that grunt, the grunting thing was weird.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. No, that's very jarring.

• 49:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, but she says she realizes in the moment that it was an accident and apologizes for yelling. So her kid's instructor, this guy Eric, helps the guy to his feet. And they have a brief exchange, the guy and him. And then everyone skis away. Kind of like this just thing happened and everyone is a little like, what the fuck was that?

• 49:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 49:19Georgia Hardstark?

  You know, Eric, the teacher, files an incident with Deer Valley, describing the events this way, although it sounds like he didn't see the moment of impact himself and was just going mostly by what Gwyneth's description was. But he writes that the man had said that Gwyneth, quote, "just appeared in front of him," end quote. So he's saying he didn't appear behind her. She just appeared in front of him.

• 49:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Unfortunately, I would just, as a person who has gotten rear-ended like three different cars in my life, it doesn't work that way.

• 49:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 49:51Karen Kilgariff?

  If you're behind, that's your responsibility.

• 49:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, because also, like, I'm just picturing a slope. There's no out of the blue.

• 49:59Karen Kilgariff?

  No. Unless, I mean like-

• 50:00Georgia Hardstark?

  They're going really fast.

• 50:02Karen Kilgariff?

  They're going really fast, but yeah, you have full breadth of vision.

• 50:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 50:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's not like, she can't drop down in front of you.

• 50:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 50:10Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just a weird construct.

• 50:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. But like, okay, maybe you didn't see her in front of you, but it doesn't, I don't think she could have appeared in front of you.

• 50:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Breathalyzer.

• 50:21Georgia Hardstark?

  That's actually, I don't think that happened.

• 50:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Because everyone just left.

• 50:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 50:25Georgia Hardstark?

  So everyone goes on with their lives for three years, or so it seems. At some point, the man, this man is a 75-year-old, his name is Terry Sanderson, and he hires a lawyer. The lawyer goes back and forth with Gwyneth's lawyers, which you know have to be like, the best in the fucking biz.

• 50:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Just the power.

• 50:44Georgia Hardstark?

  The most power.

• 50:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Radiating off those men.

• 50:47Georgia Hardstark?

  The secrets they know.

• 50:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And women.

• 50:48Georgia Hardstark?

  And women.

• 50:49Karen Kilgariff?

  The secrets that they can never tell.

• 50:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 50:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 50:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Gwyneth's lawyers are like, fuck you, no way. That's, I'm paraphrasing. And so Terry files in early 2019. The filing includes his version of the events, which are that he was skiing down the slope when Gwyneth, skiing out of control, slammed into him from behind, knocking him unconscious and breaking four of his ribs.

• 51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Hmm.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  So very different story.

• 51:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Now, the central question in this lawsuit will lie in one key difference between Terry and Gwyneth's stories. Who was the uphill skier? Every ski resort has a posted code of rules that skiers are supposed to follow, and among these rules is that downhill skiers have the right of way, and uphill skiers, who fucking uphill skis?

• 51:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Just for like, the workout?

• 51:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Or maybe like, to get to the top of the-

• 51:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I think they mean, it's, you know, like, downstage and upstage in the theater, they mean like, the skier behind.

• 51:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Uphill, got it. Great job.

• 51:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Thanks so much.

• 51:43Georgia Hardstark?

  So uphill is meaning they're up the hill.

• 51:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And then there's across country skiers coming across like this.

• 51:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 51:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Everybody's-

• 51:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Just like, clunking up this hill.

• 51:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 51:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes. Okay, now that makes total sense. So uphill skiers, downhill skiers, downhill people, the people in front of you, have the right of way.

• 51:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you simply can't control what's happening behind you when you cannot see it.

• 52:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly.

• 52:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Gwyneth and Terry each claim to be the downhill skier. So we do know that after the collision, let's call it, the Deer Valley Ski Patrol does bring Terry down the mountain on a stretcher. We're not sure if he loses consciousness at any point, but being brought down on a stretcher is common for anyone who has any kind of injury on the mountain that can't get down on his own.

• 52:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, I know.

• 52:25Georgia Hardstark?

  You do know.

• 52:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I know firsthand, and it's very shaming.

• 52:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I would not.

• 52:29Karen Kilgariff?

  And it takes forever. It feels like four years.

• 52:31Georgia Hardstark?

  So slow.

• 52:32Karen Kilgariff?

  And people kind of ski by you and look down at you. You just have to like, let go and let God. It's horrible.

• 52:38Georgia Hardstark?

  And get a hot toddy. So Terry goes to urgent care later that day, and it sounds like he really did fracture some ribs. This really probably was a very painful fall. And while he's there, a friend who he'd been skiing with, a man named Craig Ramone, first tells him that the person he collided with was Gwyneth Paltrow. So he didn't even know when it happened that it was Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Got all those ski equipment things on.

• 53:01Karen Kilgariff?

  The weird yellow goggles.

• 53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Shortly after this, Terry sends out an email to his entire family with the subject line that says, "I'm famous." It details the crash.

• 53:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Make that a phone call. Don't put it in my name.

• 53:14Georgia Hardstark?

  The exact contents of the email don't seem to be part of the public record, but Terry goes back and forth with one of his daughters about whether or not someone on the trail might have gotten GoPro footage of the crash, but no footage ever materializes. And then three years pass before he eventually files the suit. Initially, he sues for $3 million. Yeah. Naming both Gwyneth and Deer Valley in the lawsuit. And there's a flurry of reports about this lawsuit, at first only giving Terry's side of the story and claiming that eyewitness accounts from the slopes refute the incident report on file at Deer Valley. People love to hate on Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 53:51Karen Kilgariff?

  She has been the subject of so much hatred, basically, since day one.

• 53:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, she's somehow an easy target. And so the idea that she ran into someone and was just a messy, rich lady.

• 54:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Go, go, go, and skate away.

• 54:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And she now was, you know, had hurt this old man and everything. It's like, people love that. They like that narrative.

• 54:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, it's a story. It's like, we got to feed this content machine.

• 54:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. About a month later, so in February 2019, Gwyneth comes forward in statements through her representatives, gives her version of events. So between 2019 and when the case finally goes to trial in 2023, the amount Terry is suing for drops from $3 million to $300,000. That is because, it's not arbitrary.

• 54:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Because they drop a couple zeros off.

• 54:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Please, something. Because in Utah Civil Court, there's thresholds of amounts a plaintiff is seeking that determine how many witnesses they can call.

• 54:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 54:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And $300,000 is the threshold for the maximum number. Hmm. So like, do they want to call more people? Do they not want to call more people?

• 54:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And maybe it's like, the more people you can call to prove it, the higher your number can be. But if you're fucking around and it's like, there's only the ski guy.

• 55:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Called, yeah.

• 55:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Then, yeah.

• 55:05Georgia Hardstark?

  The less people called, the better your chances are of winning.

• 55:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, my, my thinking was, the less people called, the harder it is to prove the truth. So they can't go to those crazy levels. But like, if something happened that eight people were like, yes, that is exactly what happened. Then it's easier to be like, then this is provably your fault or your fault.

• 55:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. We are lawyers.

• 55:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just making everything up while I drink a big thing of beet juice. That's my new personality.

• 55:32Georgia Hardstark?

  That should be suspicious enough already that you're drinking a big glass of beet juice. So the case isn't going to trial until March of 2023. And the fact that it goes to trial is all a testament to the fact that Gwyneth and her legal team feel that fucking Terry has no case and it's absolute bullshit. By this point, they are suing each other. Terry is suing Gwyneth for the 300,000 and Gwyneth is countersuing Terry for $1.

• 55:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 56:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Plus her legal fees, which have to be astronomical.

• 56:03Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn it.

• 56:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Right? So she's like, that's like, the $1 thing is so, I don't want to call it petty.

• 56:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-mm.

• 56:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's.

• 56:10Karen Kilgariff?

  I think it's fair.

• 56:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's just the go fuck yourself amount.

• 56:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, it's like, this is weird that you're doing this. But I will actually go and argue this with you because

• 56:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 56:19Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't want your money. I want you to.

• 56:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Easily give you $300,000 and it wouldn't affect me for a fucking moment. But I'm not fucking doing it on principle because you're wrong. Or you're like, lying or whatever.

• 56:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, or you're just like, this is a money grab. And so instead of getting a bunch of money, I'm just going to prove that like, sometimes this is what happens to people. I mean,

• 56:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 56:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, Gwyneth Paltrow is like a perfect blonde nepo baby Hollywood superstar.

• 56:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes.

• 56:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And god damn.

• 56:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Touch, for sure.

• 56:51Karen Kilgariff?

  But our culture loves to hate those women. That's like.

• 56:54Georgia Hardstark?

  What, she's supposed to go into fucking accounting? Like, what do you want from her?

• 56:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I know. She has a perfect face and she's really good at acting. And she's like, chill. Brad Pitt really liked her. Like, come on, give it up. But

• 57:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:07Karen Kilgariff?

  They should have. Tons of video on ski slopes like that. Because it would be so hard to prove.

• 57:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. Just for liability alone. It had to be.

• 57:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Imagine the snowboarder that was like making his own video in the front grounds and then uphill, downhill skier.

• 57:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Didn't even know what he's got.

• 57:23Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's like, na na na na na na na na. And then.

• 57:27Georgia Hardstark?

  The snowboarding influencer?

• 57:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, $1 blah, blah, blah. And the trial is carried, of course, on Court TV live and streamed on YouTube and is a huge sensation for some people, particularly when Gwyneth testifies for over an hour.

• 57:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Hell, yes. This feels very quarantine material to me.

• 57:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 57:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But I guess it was a little after.

• 57:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:51Karen Kilgariff?

  But maybe we're still traumatized enough to be like, is she in court? What's going on now?

• 57:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 57:57Karen Kilgariff?

  What's that? Where'd she get that turtleneck?

• 57:59Georgia Hardstark?

  She looks so classy in her beiges.

• 58:01Karen Kilgariff?

  And her chenille.

• 58:04Georgia Hardstark?

  So her testimony is a weird thing to watch. It does seem like one of Terry's lawyers is a little starstruck by Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 58:12Karen Kilgariff?

  So it's embarrassing?

• 58:13Georgia Hardstark?

  So the line of questioning is weird. She asks Gwyneth how tall she is and then like goes back and forth of like, I'm so jealous or so tall. It's just weird. It's awkward and uncomfortable and weird.

• 58:24Karen Kilgariff?

  I don't know. What are you doing?

• 58:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I mean, honestly, it is just this like, let's be buddies, kind of a weird thing. And that's his lawyer. So he's probably just like, fucking great.

• 58:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It would have been hilarious if she came out fucking guns blazing. It was like, shut up, immediately. Just tries to get in her face.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  I mean, it, yeah, it's really weird. She asks Gwyneth if she knows Taylor Swift. Yeah, it's just weird.

• 58:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no. Can I have her number?

• 58:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, exactly. Do you guys want to go out sometime?

• 58:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really bad.

• 58:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:53Karen Kilgariff?

  And also that poor man who was like, like kicked up all this dust and now he's like slowly watching it all fade away.

• 58:59Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's live, so you can't be like, never mind. So there's lots of moments that become TikTok fodder in this testimony in the case. Gwyneth gives her version of events again. And when asked if the collision disrupted her vacation, she says, quote, "Well, I lost half a day of skiing," end quote. Which like, I don't know why I'm defending her in this thing. I'm like, she doesn't fucking mean me to. But it is like, it almost sounds like she was being facetious. She's like, that's all that happened. I lost a fucking half a day of skiing and this guy's fucking suing me for $3 million. Like, you know, like, it wasn't a big deal, but people take it as like a

• 59:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Out of touch.

• 59:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I lost half a second. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  But this woman, she's always on the grind for you people, you know? She's like, she never stops working. Can't she have a half a day of skiing?

• 59:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Without everybody being like, fuck you.

• 59:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. So, fine, whatever.

• 59:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I'll defend her. I don't care.

• 59:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, I mean, we will.

• 59:51Karen Kilgariff?

  At this point, I'll defend her.

• 59:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Because, because also after it happened, she packed in for the day and went and got a massage instead. Because she's like, yeah, someone just fucking clobbered me.

• 1:00:02Karen Kilgariff?

  And she's made of money.

• 1:00:04Georgia Hardstark?

  And I'm so fucking, and I'm Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 1:00:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Her choice is like, go pick a diamond necklace, eat fucking caviar, or go get a massage.

• 1:00:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, what would you do?

• 1:00:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd do that.

• 1:00:14Karen Kilgariff?

  What do you want her to go down and work at the buffet? It's Gwyneth fucking Paltrow. She's never lifted a finger, nor should she have had to.

• 1:00:21Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 1:00:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you, Black Danner, for bringing this perfect child into the world.

• 1:00:26Georgia Hardstark?

  We are Gwyneth Paltrow's fans here, it turns out.

• 1:00:29Karen Kilgariff?

  We're the phoniest assholes in all of show business.

• 1:00:32Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. We're just like, just as bad as the lawyer kissing her ass.

• 1:00:35Karen Kilgariff?

  But I think there is a piece of it where it's like, this must happen to her or that type of person. Non-fucking stop.

• 1:00:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, you just can't win. Like, anything you say is going to be torn apart.

• 1:00:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Did you see Marty Supreme, Gwyneth is in it? As this like actress who is, you know, slightly older? Fucking incredible. She is a movie star.

• 1:00:59Georgia Hardstark?

  She is.

• 1:00:59Karen Kilgariff?

  That's the other thing. It's like, just, I think when people get around movie stars, whether they sue them or like, try to be friends with them, there's just a weird magic.

• 1:01:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Like a blip in your head.

• 1:01:08Karen Kilgariff?

  It makes you a little crazy. What's your?

• 1:01:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I still love Odessa, that chick who's in Marty Supreme with the curly hair.

• 1:01:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, she's so.

• 1:01:15Georgia Hardstark?

  She's in I Love L.A. and it's, she's like, she's

• 1:01:18Karen Kilgariff?

  So good.

• 1:01:18Georgia Hardstark?

  One of the reasons to watch it. She's just incredible.

• 1:01:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I gotta see that.

• 1:01:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Odessa A. Zion. And she's just like, magnetic.

• 1:01:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I like that movie, but my sister had to go out and stand in the lobby for a while because she was over, all of her senses were overwhelmed.

• 1:01:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Why?

• 1:01:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Because you have to watch it, but the soundtrack is absolutely insane.

• 1:01:34Georgia Hardstark?

  I can't watch. I have a sensory issue. I can't watch it.

• 1:01:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, she does too.

• 1:01:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, good.

• 1:01:39Karen Kilgariff?

  You should text her.

• 1:01:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I don't want to like upset her senses. That's what we don't like is to be texted. Okay. So Terry's ski buddy, that guy Craig Ramone, takes the stand. He's considered to be the only eyewitness to the actual collision. He, of course, backs up his friend Terry's story. He says that he heard a quote, "blood curling scream," end quote.

• 1:02:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 1:02:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Before seeing Gwyneth out of control slam into Terry.

• 1:02:04Karen Kilgariff?

  The woman has been on ski slopes since she was like probably four years old.

• 1:02:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, right. He also is questioned about a Facebook post he made shortly after the collision claiming Gwyneth, quote, "took Terry out," end quote. You know, who knows what the fuck. They're just trying to make it seem like it's her fault, obviously.

• 1:02:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, he has broken ribs. I mean, like.

• 1:02:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, the broken ribs, but also he's an, I'm sorry, but like he's an older gentleman.

• 1:02:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:02:28Georgia Hardstark?

  But she wasn't hurt at all and he broke four ribs. Not to say that, it just seems like.

• 1:02:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Disparate stories.

• 1:02:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and it might be more about you and your body than the crash.

• 1:02:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 1:02:40Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:02:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes. I just need to know who the uphill and downhill skiers were. Because that's, all of a sudden, people being like, no, no, I was in front, is crazy and infuriating, I'm sure.

• 1:02:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. And then, of course, Eric, the ski instructor, who we must imagine is gorgeous and like, you know, fucking Fabio in the mood. Like, let's just picture that because it's fun.

• 1:02:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Please, and stoned.

• 1:03:00Georgia Hardstark?

  And stoned and had a fucking bird head him in the face. Backs up Gwyneth's version of what happened. He says she's a decent skier and that she had been making good turns and that she had been skiing calmly, you know, normally. He disputes the blood curling scream, saying, quote, "Miss Paltrow doesn't go down the hill screaming. There would be no reason for her to be screaming just to scream," end quote.

• 1:03:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, no, that's not the claim. The claim is like, ah, coming in like that.

• 1:03:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Can you picture Gwyneth Paltrow screaming in out of control fucking craziness on like a bunny slope?

• 1:03:33Karen Kilgariff?

  It just doesn't.

• 1:03:33Georgia Hardstark?

  And knows how to ski.

• 1:03:34Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a bunny slope or it's a green slope.

• 1:03:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Slope. Is bunny like, we're not, is that not?

• 1:03:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Bunny's the one that's like, there's almost no incline whatsoever. But then the other one's kind of like.

• 1:03:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:03:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Pretty serious.

• 1:03:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. So he and Terry's lawyers have a long back and forth about whether or not Eric yelled at Terry. There's all this like fucking, they're just questioning the teacher.

• 1:03:55Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's like, hey, man.

• 1:03:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Hey, man.

• 1:03:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, dude.

• 1:03:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Just trying to do my fucking job with Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 1:03:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Rad the snow, baby.

• 1:04:01Georgia Hardstark?

  The case probably falls apart for good when Terry is questioned. In his suit, he lists many health problems that he's suffered since the collision. But Gwyneth's legal team also determined that he had most of these conditions before the collision. Also, it's determined that his eyesight in one eye was already fairly impaired at the time of the collision. I feel sensitive towards him because he's my dad's age and

• 1:04:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I just feel sensitive.

• 1:04:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Like, it sucks to get into a ski accident, no matter what's happening.

• 1:04:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He claims he's suffered debilitating health issues in the years since. But Gwyneth's legal team points out that he had also traveled extensively after the accident, taking trips to Europe, Peru, Morocco, the Canary Islands, Thailand, and Costa Rica, where he zip lined. In the end, Gwyneth winds up winning the case and is awarded the $1 in damages. Ultimately, Terry winds up not having to pay her legal fees because it would have been a huge amount of money. And I, you know, kudos to her for, like, not making him do that.

• 1:05:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Being decent.

• 1:05:03Georgia Hardstark?

  After the verdict is read, when everyone is leaving the courtroom, this is just, I mean, it's, what do you think of this moment? It's so beautifully petty, right?

• 1:05:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's hilarious. And I also don't know if she meant it in a petty way.

• 1:05:15Georgia Hardstark?

  I think she was being sincere.

• 1:05:16Karen Kilgariff?

  I do, too, because

• 1:05:18Georgia Hardstark?

  I totally do.

• 1:05:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, you and I would do it and absolutely be sarcastic.

• 1:05:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, here, let's say it, let's say the words together.

• 1:05:23Karen Kilgariff?

  She's a classy MF'er.

• 1:05:25Georgia Hardstark?

  She goes by him and leans down and whispers in his ear, it's on video, she whispers, "I wish you well." So you could go, "I wish you well."

• 1:05:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Or you can go, "I wish you well."

• 1:05:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, you could lock eyes and be like, dude.

• 1:05:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, which, well, I think the way, when you watch the video, it doesn't have a pettiness. I don't know. I don't see the pettiness.

• 1:05:47Karen Kilgariff?

  But she's wearing a lot of cashmere, so you really give her the benefit of the doubt.

• 1:05:52Georgia Hardstark?

  She smells amazing, too.

• 1:05:54Karen Kilgariff?

  She has this really good glowy primer on.

• 1:05:57Georgia Hardstark?

  God, her skin is perfect, her hair is perfect, she smells great. "I wish you well."

• 1:06:02Karen Kilgariff?

  "I wish you well."

• 1:06:02Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote. And that, you know, that is my, wishing them well is my talking shit that, like, I'm not gonna talk shit. I'm just gonna say, "I'm wishing them well."

• 1:06:12Karen Kilgariff?

  And then you talk shit after?

• 1:06:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Well, I don't talk shit.

• 1:06:15Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm just like, who are you talking about? You don't talk shit.

• 1:06:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Who's that, Georgia? I don't know her. Uh, I wish you well, end quote. The reporters asked Harry if he whispered anything back to her. He answers that he said, quote, "Thank you, dear."

• 1:06:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 1:06:30Georgia Hardstark?

  End quote.

• 1:06:31Karen Kilgariff?

  So they kind of ended friends?

• 1:06:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like ended on a, this is stupid and we both can acknowledge that. And like, let's move on with our lives.

• 1:06:38Karen Kilgariff?

  It's kind of like, hey, look, is this an opportunity to make a cool, easy $2 million?

• 1:06:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:06:44Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, this is what people do because the courts are unregulated in that way.

• 1:06:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:06:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Watch the McDonald's Hot Coffee documentary.

• 1:06:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. To this day, he stands by his version of events. He has to. And that is the story of the Gwyneth Paltrow ski collision trial.

• 1:07:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Now, do you think she really was innocent? Or do you think that she was just a more appealing witness than him?

• 1:07:09Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't think his version of events add up. Not maliciously.

• 1:07:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:15Georgia Hardstark?

  You know? If he were younger, I think I'd think it was malicious and like a money grab. But I just don't buy it. And then also, like, you weren't hurt that bad. You didn't, you're blaming her for that, but you're living your life. I don't know.

• 1:07:29Karen Kilgariff?

  You're in San Moritz. Also, I think if it was a big smash up.

• 1:07:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Every, there would be way more witnesses and way more people and like.

• 1:07:39Georgia Hardstark?

  An incident report, because places like that are immediately, for insurance reasons, going to be like, I know everyone's fine, but we need to write out the report.

• 1:07:45Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, didn't Eric, the ski instructor?

• 1:07:48Georgia Hardstark?

  After the fact, which is good. But like, yeah, they would have.

• 1:07:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it wasn't all hands on deck because there's this big terrible accident.

• 1:07:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:07:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So that, to me, is weird as well.

• 1:07:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Did they show pictures of her in her ski outfit?

• 1:07:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, I didn't see. I don't know. I bet she looks cute.

• 1:08:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, yeah.

• 1:08:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Elite.

• 1:08:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Why are we kissing her ass so much?

• 1:08:06Karen Kilgariff?

  No, no, I'm not trying to.

• 1:08:07Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not, I am.

• 1:08:08Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, there's, what do we get out of it?

• 1:08:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Free goop.

• 1:08:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Free goop. I think it's an interesting thing when you are kind of at the hands of the public in that way.

• 1:08:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you're like a public property.

• 1:08:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh huh.

• 1:08:20Georgia Hardstark?

  You're not a real person anymore.

• 1:08:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. And then it's like even just, we bumped into each other, now you're going to pay me money.

• 1:08:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. And like the three years later thing.

• 1:08:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Three years later afterwards is when he started suing her.

• 1:08:32Karen Kilgariff?

  He had to go on vacation to eight places.

• 1:08:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 1:08:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, in fairness, if she did come through and smash into him and break his ribs.

• 1:08:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And ski away like two bad chumps.

• 1:08:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:08:43Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he's just like, no one's ever gonna be on my side because it's Gwyneth Paltrow.

• 1:08:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and I've had to go through all these things because of broken ribs, which is really fucking painful and

• 1:08:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:52Georgia Hardstark?

  makes ziplining really hard, then like, I don't know. He reminds me of my dad a little, so I'm like, don't want to.

• 1:09:00Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:09:01Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 1:09:01Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:09:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like this like sweet old, old man looking guy.

• 1:09:05Karen Kilgariff?

  That was such a good idea and such a like.

• 1:09:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's almost like, hey, let's read the newspaper together.

• 1:09:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally. But it's true crime.

• 1:09:12Karen Kilgariff?

  It is.

• 1:09:12Georgia Hardstark?

  It is, and anyone who says different.

• 1:09:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, I do think that if this was different, she wouldn't have done the $1, she wouldn't have waived the legal fees.

• 1:09:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Like, all of those moves.

• 1:09:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 1:09:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Belie, at least like a, a good faith person.

• 1:09:27Georgia Hardstark?

  It's that thing of like, my integrity is on the line here.

• 1:09:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:09:31Georgia Hardstark?

  And I refuse to back down because you're lying, because that's not true.

• 1:09:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 1:09:35Georgia Hardstark?

  So I don't think she would have done that if it were true.

• 1:09:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. But I do think it was like very close to the Johnny Depp Amber Heard thing.

• 1:09:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. It felt similar.

• 1:09:44Karen Kilgariff?

  It was, it felt like it was right there where you're just like, what's happening all of a sudden? Court TV is back and better than ever.

• 1:09:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Why is this entertainment?

• 1:09:51Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 1:09:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It shouldn't be. That's the downfall of, wait a second, this is a true crime podcast.

• 1:09:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Hold on a second.

• 1:09:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. All right, that's fucking it.

• 1:09:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, that was a great way to distract from our horrors.

• 1:10:01Georgia Hardstark?

  We did that.

• 1:10:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, we did.

• 1:10:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I don't feel as bad as I thought I would at the end of this story.

• 1:10:05Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm sorry, Gwyneth, but I feel fucking great after your nutso, your nutso experience. And I'm sorry, broken ribs man, because if you are right and the world is against you.

• 1:10:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:15Karen Kilgariff?

  What a tragedy.

• 1:10:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Truly. In this day and age of all, that's a tragedy of all tragedies.

• 1:10:20Karen Kilgariff?

  What if she leaned forward and said, my, what is it, peace be with you? What did she say?

• 1:10:25Georgia Hardstark?

  I wish you well.

• 1:10:26Karen Kilgariff?

  I wish you well, but then she very quickly winked with one eye.

• 1:10:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Just like.

• 1:10:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Just like, no, I don't.

• 1:10:31Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I don't.

• 1:10:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 1:10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Amazing.

• 1:10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Good distraction. Thank you. Great story.

• 1:10:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, thank you.

• 1:10:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So now that we're back in the real world, we want to throw some money at the problem by donating $10,000 to the ACLU.

• 1:10:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, considering everything that's going on, what if we give $25,000?

• 1:10:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it. Let's do it.

• 1:10:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  In the name of murderinos and all of you guys for just supporting us and listening, thank you.

• 1:10:56Karen Kilgariff?

  And anything you can do, go on social media. The people of Minneapolis need your help, need your support. Probably money or donations. There's all kinds of services. This is really an insane situation that everyone is in. And whether you can volunteer, give $5, or just give a shit and pay attention.

• 1:11:16Georgia Hardstark?

  This is a pivotal moment.

• 1:11:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:11:17Georgia Hardstark?

  I think it's gonna be historical, so let's be on the right side of history.

• 1:11:21Karen Kilgariff?

  God. Anyway, stay sexy.

• 1:11:23Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered. Goodbye. Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 1:11:31Speaker 05

  What gets you to believe in something? And I mean, really, really believe. To the point that you'd be willing to travel thousands of miles and put your faith, even your own body, on the line for it.

• 1:11:48Speaker 06

  Desperate, that's what I was, weighing freaking 80 pounds with a child to raise.

• 1:11:55Speaker 07

  We went to multiple doctors. They couldn't figure out what was actually the problem.

• 1:12:01Speaker 08

  Nobody told me they were going to cure my father. No doctor, neurosurgeon. But he said, I'm going to cure your father. And I believed it.

• 1:12:13Speaker 05

  How long are you willing to hold that belief? Until you question the whole thing?

• 1:12:19Speaker 09

  As they would say, either I believed in him or I believed in death.

• 1:12:25Speaker 09

  I had to believe in him.

• 1:12:27Speaker 05

  João Teixeira de Faria, better known as John of God, is a Brazilian spiritual healer who, over five decades, grew into one of the most famous healers in the world.

• 1:12:39Speaker 10

  He had healed the wives of ministers, presidents, and owners of big companies.

• 1:12:46Speaker 07

  This is real. This guy's actually doing surgery, and it's a miracle. I never believed that miracles were real until that point.

• 1:12:54Speaker 11

  You had literally thousands of people in white milling around, and everyone tells you how they've been saved by this person. After a while, I was like, well, can all these people be wrong?

• 1:13:07Speaker 05

  But while he drew thousands of followers, who claimed he cured their cancer or helped them walk again, over time, a darker side began to reveal itself.

• 1:13:19Speaker 06

  One of the reasons why I never went to the police is because I saw at least five or six men with guns everywhere he went. That was clear to me, like, close your mouth. Don't open your mouth. Don't say anything.

• 1:13:32Speaker 05

  From Exactly Right Media and Adonde Media, this is Two-Faced: John of God. I'm executive producer and host Martina Castro. And over the course of the next six episodes, I'll tell you how this man painted himself as a gifted healer. But as his power and influence grew, he used it to lead a double life, one driven by intimidation, greed, and sexual assault.

• 1:13:59Speaker 10

  It's very difficult, and it's very also lonely, one small person against God.

• 1:14:08Speaker 05

  Listen to Two-Faced: John of God on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And Spanish speakers, pueden escuchar esta serie en español. Busquen a Dos Caras: Juan de Dios.

• 1:14:28Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 1:14:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer is Tessa Hughes.

• 1:14:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Our editor is Aristotle Lasevedo.

• 1:14:36Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Liana Scolacci.

• 1:14:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Alkan.

• 1:14:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected].

• 1:14:44Karen Kilgariff?

  And follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 1:14:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 1:14:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Or you can watch us on YouTube. Search for My Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe. Goodbye.

• 1:15:04Georgia Hardstark?

  By now you've heard about Reef's shoes and sandals, but we want to introduce you to their line of women's clogs for fall.

• 1:15:09Karen Kilgariff?

  These are the kind of shoes you'll keep reaching for because they're genuinely comfortable, but still feel cute and current.

• 1:15:15Georgia Hardstark?

  A cute, like, flowy dress and a pair of clogs is so timeless.

• 1:15:19Karen Kilgariff?

  And we got to get some of these clogs. I couldn't believe how cute and comfortable these Reef clogs were. They have the arch support, they have the height, they give you a little bit of height, but they're kind of simple. Check out the clogs on reef.com and redeem 15% off your first purchase.

• 1:15:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:15:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Vacation planning should feel like a breeze, not a deep dive into countless travel sites searching for the best deal.

• 1:15:40Georgia Hardstark?

  With CheapCaribbean's Budget Beach Finder, you can search every destination and every date all in one search.

• 1:15:46Karen Kilgariff?

  You'll save time and money with the Budget Beach Finder.

• 1:15:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Say goodbye to endless scrolling and tab hopping and hello to budget beach bliss at your fingertips.

• 1:15:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Go to cheapcaribbean.com to try out the Budget Beach Finder and see just how stress-free vacation planning should be.

• 1:16:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:16:02Speaker 12

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