551 - I Won’t See You Later

On today’s episode, Karen covers America’s first sleepwalking murder defense and Georgia tells the story of Ming, Tiger of Harlem. For our sources, please visit https://www.myfavoritemurder.com/episodes. Support this podcast by shopping our latest sponsor deals and promotions at this link: https://bit.ly/3UFCn1g. Head to social media to share your favorite moments from this episode. Instagram: instagram.com/myfavoritemurder http://instagram.com/myfavoritemurder Facebook: facebook.com/myfavoritemurder http://facebook.com/myfavoritemurder TikTok: tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder http://tiktok.com/@my_favorite_murder Send your hometown stories to [email protected] mailto:[email protected]. Join the Fan Cult to access ad-free episodes of My Favorite Murder. Members also receive merch store discounts, exclusive audio and video content and more! Visit www.fancult.supercast.com http://www.fancult.supercast.com/ to join. Shop for My Favorite Murder and other Exactly Right merchandise here: www.exactlyrightstore.com http://www.exactlyrightstore.com/. Rate, review and follow My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

  This is Exactly Right.

• 0:07Speaker 00

  911, what's your emergency?

• 0:10Speaker 01

  Please help us, they're everywhere. We think they're murder hornets. 911 Nashville returns.

• 0:17Speaker 02

  It's a homicide detective down here.

• 0:19Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 0:20Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 0:23Speaker 03

  Hell, sin swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 0:26Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 0:27Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 0:30Speaker 01

  Brian Phillippeach, 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 0:37Speaker 00

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• 1:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Hello.

• 1:47Karen Kilgariff?

  And welcome.

• 1:48Georgia Hardstark?

  To My Favorite Murder.

• 1:49Karen Kilgariff?

  That's Georgia Hardstark.

• 1:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Karen Kilgariff.

• 1:51Karen Kilgariff?

  This is our brand-new table.

• 1:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at our new table/studio, kind of.

• 1:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 1:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Slash decorations.

• 1:59Karen Kilgariff?

  We just did a little bit of a refresh rehab. And when I say "we," I mean everybody else that works here.

• 2:05Georgia Hardstark?

  They did an amazing job.

• 2:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 2:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Everything. If you're not watching on Netflix, what are you even doing?

• 2:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Come on, we stream.

• 2:11Georgia Hardstark?

  We're literally on Netflix, and you can see all our cute, like, stuff behind us.

• 2:16Karen Kilgariff?

  All kinds of stuff people that listen to the show made.

• 2:19Georgia Hardstark?

  People that listen to the show made a lot of, what's it called when they're secrets?

• 2:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Easter eggs.

• 2:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Easter eggs, thank you.

• 2:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:25Georgia Hardstark?

  And lots of cute stuff.

• 2:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, we should do kind of a, like, a tour.

• 2:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, for the fan cult.

• 2:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. A little walk you through, find the names of all the people that made us the stuff. Everyone's like, "No!"

• 2:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I love it.

• 2:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, it's so exciting.

• 2:40Georgia Hardstark?

  What's up with you?

• 2:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, I have spidery eyelashes today.

• 2:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Did you get them done?

• 2:45Karen Kilgariff?

  I just have a ton of mascara on. I did like a primer.

• 2:49Georgia Hardstark?

  They look different.

• 2:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 2:51Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like visibly different.

• 2:52Karen Kilgariff?

  Primer, and then Katie Jane Hughes. Do you follow her on social media? She's a British makeup artist, very famous. Does famous people. But she's came out with her own line of stuff.

• 3:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 3:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Doesn't need my help, but the second she was like, "I make my own mascara." And the wand is like a quarter of the size of a normal one.

• 3:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 3:10Karen Kilgariff?

  So you can just get in there and flick out.

• 3:12Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, this isn't, I don't know. I don't know what we're doing. We're not selling anything, but they're visibly different. I'm like, they're bright, I like them.

• 3:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good. Visibly, positively good.

• 3:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 3:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great, great.

• 3:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Visibly like bright and bushy.

• 3:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 3:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that a thing?

• 3:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Bushy tails?

• 3:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Do you want bushy eyes?

• 3:27Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanted to give you the experience of what it was like to sit across from me in study hall sophomore year.

• 3:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh.

• 3:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And this is what it was like.

• 3:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Is that what it is? Just lashes for days.

• 3:36Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like, what are you doing? Stop putting on all that mascara.

• 3:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God.

• 3:40Karen Kilgariff?

  I can't.

• 3:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Just crunchy eyelashes.

• 3:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, how about coat number four? And then socializing.

• 3:47Georgia Hardstark?

  The things we do. Um, I have a book recommendation because I have 90 days alcohol-free today.

• 3:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Congratulations.

• 3:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 3:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Are you doing, and doesn't matter either way, but are you doing chipage? Are you doing anything official?

• 4:03Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm gonna do some chipage. I have my 30-day, I want to get my 90-day, why not? But I'm not doing hardcore AA, but I do get a lot out of going to meetings.

• 4:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:14Georgia Hardstark?

  So I'm doing that. My dad offered me his, his big book today.

• 4:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 4:19Georgia Hardstark?

  I was like, "Thank you, Dad," but...

• 4:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We're taking this step by step.

• 4:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Or we're not taking it step by step.

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We're not.

• 4:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I'm not.

• 4:26Karen Kilgariff?

  We're going against the steps.

• 4:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 4:28Karen Kilgariff?

  And we're doing sideways crab walking.

• 4:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. I'm taking what works for me and leaving the rest.

• 4:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 4:34Georgia Hardstark?

  So, speaking of these things, I'm like getting, the thing that's really helped me is getting as much knowledge as I can about how fucked up alcohol is for your, like, actual anatomy and your brain and your hormones. So, there's a new book out called Hangxiety.

• 4:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 4:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Which if that word triggers you when you hear it, it's your book.

• 4:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 4:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 4:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Hangxiety.

• 4:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and you know exactly what that is, right?

• 4:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 4:58Georgia Hardstark?

  You wake up and you're immediately, "Oh, fuck."

• 5:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:02Georgia Hardstark?

  "Oh, fuck."

• 5:03Karen Kilgariff?

  "What have I done?"

• 5:04Georgia Hardstark?

  "What have I done? What did I say?" So, it's a book called Hangxiety by Millie Gooch.

• 5:09Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 5:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Who's a listener, who's really cool.

• 5:10Karen Kilgariff?

  The Gooch?

• 5:11Georgia Hardstark?

  The Gooch.

• 5:11Karen Kilgariff?

  The Gooch listens?

• 5:12Georgia Hardstark?

  And it's just a lot of, like, really good information, but told in a way that's relatable, that you can understand. She's also British, so there's a lot of cute sayings and words in it that we don't use. But it's, it's good.

• 5:22Karen Kilgariff?

  That's great.

• 5:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's definitely helping me.

• 5:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Really, nothing better than being able to read something that actually feels like it's getting you somewhere else.

• 5:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 5:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That we're out of where you don't want to be and toward where you want to be.

• 5:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, and it makes it so much harder to then do the thing that's so bad for you when you know exactly the systems that it's fucking with.

• 5:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 5:42Georgia Hardstark?

  You know?

• 5:42Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. A little of the science behind it.

• 5:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Science. Who knew?

• 5:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Hangxiety.

• 5:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Hangxiety.

• 5:47Karen Kilgariff?

  That's really good.

• 5:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God, never again. I never want, that's like what this is. I just don't want to wake up like that again, ever in my life. And the only way to do that is to not drink.

• 5:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 5:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Sucks.

• 5:58Karen Kilgariff?

  My worst one was like, it truly, I woke up in such a good mood, and then I was like, "Wait, why am I in such a good mood?" And then the Polaroid started rolling.

• 6:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:09Karen Kilgariff?

  And it truly was like a bad, it was almost like a bad Jonah Hill movie, where I was like, "Wait, uh."

• 6:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Is this the one where you saw yourself kissing someone?

• 6:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Trying to. Trying to.

• 6:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Trying to like lean in for a smooch.

• 6:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Somebody else is like, "Whoa, whoa."

• 6:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 6:25Karen Kilgariff?

  And it really isn't my style, sober.

• 6:29Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 6:29Karen Kilgariff?

  To be all.

• 6:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, that's why you do it.

• 6:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's, that's right.

• 6:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 6:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Low permish.

• 6:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Karen Kilgariff?

  But, oh my God. I can see it as clear as day, and that happened 58 years ago.

• 6:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Are you still friends with him? Does, does he know that he's part of your lore?

• 6:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, I'd rather not say.

• 6:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 6:47Karen Kilgariff?

  What if we don't reveal one thing about ourselves?

• 6:50Georgia Hardstark?

  That's part of this, yeah.

• 6:51Karen Kilgariff?

  My face is getting all hot. It's embarrassing to the moment. It's like...

• 6:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 6:56Karen Kilgariff?

  All those moments that I haven't had to do since that time, I'm very grateful for.

• 7:00Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, and that's like why it's funny and okay to talk about it, is because you did something about it. You're not still lingering in that bad place. So...

• 7:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 7:08Georgia Hardstark?

  To me, it's like, but you still don't have to name names.

• 7:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't have to name names, but also, yeah, because you don't have to fully throw yourself on the crucifix of, "I was so bad to do this." Lots of people do it. Lots of people work their way through it and out of it and do other things. We're all going to progress in this life, in whatever way we choose to.

• 7:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. I'd rather go on that way.

• 7:29Karen Kilgariff?

  I want to go toward Christ. Don't you guys?

• 7:33Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's why we got this new table.

• 7:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen said it. Go towards Christ.

• 7:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Finally, up to the Lord.

• 7:40Georgia Hardstark?

  That's, that's making me embarrassed. That's who you tried to kiss?

• 7:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, Jesus Christ. He's, he had such pretty hair and these cool sandals.

• 7:47Georgia Hardstark?

  He loved a beard.

• 7:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes, and he was just so understanding.

• 7:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God, and a guy who's like handy.

• 7:51Karen Kilgariff?

  And he's like, "Do you want more wine?" I'm like, "Where are you getting this wine?"

• 7:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So sacrilegious, I love it.

• 7:56Karen Kilgariff?

  I know.

• 7:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Um, okay, let's get into it, shall we?

• 7:58Karen Kilgariff?

  We should.

• 7:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, we have a podcast network still.

• 8:01Karen Kilgariff?

  That's correct.

• 8:02Georgia Hardstark?

  It's called Exactly Right Media. And here are some highlights from our beautiful, wonderful bounty of shows.

• 8:07Karen Kilgariff?

  We have so many great shows, building more and more by the day.

• 8:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:11Karen Kilgariff?

  And here's the thing, I'm just gonna brag on us.

• 8:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Good.

• 8:14Karen Kilgariff?

  We make hits.

• 8:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 8:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Over here at Exactly Right. Very proud of all these shows, one of which is Paul Holes and Kate Winkler-Dawson's Buried Bones. The two of them travel to 1911 to Sue St. Marie, Canada. They wrote out how to pronounce Marie. Thanks, you guys. Where a woman named Angelina Napolitano faces the ultimate punishment for a shocking crime.

• 8:37Georgia Hardstark?

  What's the crime and what's the punishment? You'll have to listen to find out.

• 8:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Do your own work.

• 8:41Georgia Hardstark?

  And then over on fucking Hollywoodland, amazing Hollywoodland, Jake and Zeph look back at Will Smith's rise from a 1989 arrest that nearly derailed his career to becoming one of Hollywood's biggest stars. Then decades later, he finds himself at the center of controversy once again with the slap heard around the world. Like, that, that's so cringe.

• 9:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Such an incredible moment. Twitter was still Twitter.

• 9:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 9:06Karen Kilgariff?

  People were still watching things and, and live tweeting, posting, and then that happened.

• 9:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, God.

• 9:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And we switch timelines.

• 9:14Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, so check that out on Hollywoodland.

• 9:16Karen Kilgariff?

  And then over on That's Messed Up, Karen and Lisa break down the SVU episode in the wind and the case of murderer and landlord Kim K. Sue. Plus, they're joined with our own Michael Foot from Brief Recession to talk about the ongoing US immigration crisis. It's very much ongoing.

• 9:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Speaking of Michael, over on Brief Recession, he and Melissa sit down with none other than Clay Aiken to talk dad life, his new album, and what it was like coming out as gay in good old 2008.

• 9:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, I mean...

• 9:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Incredible.

• 9:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Full credit to Clay Aiken. Also, don't forget to watch Michael Foot on The Traitor's New Blood. So Episodes 3 and 4 will be out tonight on NBC.

• 9:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Love it. And in the merch corner, spooky season has officially arrived at the Exactly Right store. Check out the My Favorite Murder illustrations. This is the MFM illustrations t-shirt and art print designed by Charlotte Croy Hudson. How frickin' cool is this?

• 10:12Karen Kilgariff?

  12 little beautiful pieces of personalized art of things that we love and are known for on this show.

• 10:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 10:18Karen Kilgariff?

  Like the middle finger. The Home Depot 12-foot skeleton.

• 10:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's like little Easter eggs of stuff we like. There's a Swiss cheese, like, that's old school.

• 10:28Karen Kilgariff?

  That's old, next, down next to Elvis.

• 10:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Yay.

• 10:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Mothman, of course, there's a Cinco.

• 10:32Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a crow, and I have crows on my dress.

• 10:35Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean...

• 10:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Look, listen.

• 10:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Look, listen, we got it all.

• 10:38Georgia Hardstark?

  I fucking love that thing so much.

• 10:39Karen Kilgariff?

  I do, too.

• 10:40Georgia Hardstark?

  And then we're also getting a Raglan shirt up Stay Out of the Forest. It's spooky Halloween and it's very cool.

• 10:47Karen Kilgariff?

  It's a brand-new design. It's moon-centered and moon-centric and moon-forward.

• 10:51Georgia Hardstark?

  You love moons.

• 10:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I do.

• 10:54Georgia Hardstark?

  So check that out at exactlyrightstore.com.

• 10:57Karen Kilgariff?

  I love moons plural. Moons wherever I can get them.

• 11:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It's exciting to do podcasting like a Charlie Rose style here. It's very...

• 11:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 11:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It feels cool.

• 11:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Very official.

• 11:11Karen Kilgariff?

  My story today begins in October of 1845 in a boarding house in Boston, Massachusetts. Old newspaper reports describe this Beacon Hill boarding house as, quote, "disreputable."

• 11:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Fun. Like, what else are you gonna be if you're a boarding house?

• 11:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 11:25Georgia Hardstark?

  But disreputable.

• 11:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Get some good shit going on in there.

• 11:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Heard of a reputable boarding house.

• 11:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Gambling in the basement, sexy step upstairs.

• 11:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Absolutely.

• 11:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Some just call it a brothel, while others say it's a place that caters to unmarried couples who live together.

• 11:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Sounds great.

• 11:40Karen Kilgariff?

  Sounds like everywhere in LA. Regardless, all of those choices are frowned upon by 19th century polite society, of course. So on the chilly morning of October 27th, 1845, around 5:00 AM, the old couple who own this boarding house hear a woman scream, followed by a loud thud and what sounds like someone rushing down the stairs and out the front door. The couple go to see what's going on and find one of their female tenants in her bedroom, dead on the floor. Her throat has been slashed, there's blood everywhere, and there are several small fires burning on and around her body. The victim is identified as 21-year-old Maria Bickford, and this is the notorious case of Maria's murder and the incredibly sensationalized trial for her accused killer.

• 12:25Karen Kilgariff?

  The main sources used for this story are an article by my best friend, Robert Wilhelm, who has his website Murder by Gaslight, which we have used on this show so many times.

• 12:35Georgia Hardstark?

  So good.

• 12:36Karen Kilgariff?

  And he has written a bunch of great books. I've recommended them a lot of times. Also, a historic pamphlet recounting the murder trial, and a Smithsonian magazine article by Abbott Kayler, and the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So sometime in the 1820s, Maria Bickford is born Mary Ann Dunn in Maine. Her parents are described in old documents as, quote, "poor but respectable." Mary Ann is described as very beautiful. She has big dreams beyond the quiet, simple life that she's inherited there in Maine. Mary Ann is said to be strong-willed, which, given, of course, the social norm...

• 13:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 13:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Could you imagine just us being born back then?

• 13:15Georgia Hardstark?

  [laughing]

• 13:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Just immediately.

• 13:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Burned at the stake, immediately.

• 13:21Karen Kilgariff?

  We're like the first grammar school steak burning. So which, given the social norms of the era, is not complimentary. Still, she can't escape the expectations of young women born into a working-class family of the time. So when she's just 16 years old, she gets married. Her husband is a shoemaker, which is great.

• 13:41Georgia Hardstark?

  You like that?

• 13:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, yeah. You're like, "Could you make me some green ones with a slight heel, a little bit of a wedge?" You just have that at home.

• 13:48Georgia Hardstark?

  You'd love a handy Jesus-type.

• 13:50Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, a man who knows shoes.

• 13:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 13:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Who cares about his shoes.

• 13:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Shoes, okay. Shoemakers, listening?

• 13:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen. His name is James Bickford. They live a modest life together near Bangor, Maine. But within two years of being married, Mary Ann begins an affair with another man. We don't know much about him, but in 1842, when she's around 18 years old...

• 14:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 14:12Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, these are like high school kids.

• 14:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 14:14Karen Kilgariff?

  They run off to Boston together. Within a couple of months of their arrival in Boston, Mary Ann's new boyfriend gets bored with the affair, seemingly, and goes back to Maine and leaves Mary Ann behind. So here's a picture of Maria Bickford.

• 14:27Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, that's just a hard drawing to understand, but I'm sure she's beautiful.

• 14:32Karen Kilgariff?

  What was beautiful about her was all of the terrible pebbling on her face. If someone had stepped with a big shoe.

• 14:39Georgia Hardstark?

  The, like, leaking Sharpie that they used to draw her face.

• 14:44Karen Kilgariff?

  But she's doing my mascara trick, and I'm really mad. Don't steal my shit, Maria.

• 14:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. And then the newsprint all over your face.

• 14:50Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 14:51Georgia Hardstark?

  It's just beautiful. And the one forehead curl.

• 14:54Karen Kilgariff?

  Right in the middle of her forehead. Okay, so now she's in the big city alone, but she loves it. She loves all the hustle and bustle. It's like what she was waiting for. So she decides to stay in Boston. She changes her name to Maria, and then to make ends meet, she becomes a sex worker. She works at various brothels and boarding houses around Boston, and then down in New Bedford, Massachusetts. She never really settles into one place. Eventually, her husband, James Bickford, tracks her down and comes and tries to convince her to come back to Maine with him.

• 15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 15:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm-hmm.

• 15:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Interesting.

• 15:29Karen Kilgariff?

  She refuses.

• 15:30Georgia Hardstark?

  He makes shitty shoes.

• 15:31Karen Kilgariff?

  That's right. James will later say, quote, "While in the city, she appeared delighted with everything she saw," adding that she'd become, quote, "dissatisfied with her humble condition back home," which is what happened to me when I moved to Sacramento.

• 15:44Georgia Hardstark?

  [laughing] This big city of Sacramento just had Karen.

• 15:48Karen Kilgariff?

  They got a river and a fake, small Golden Gate Bridge over that river. Have you ever seen that bridge?

• 15:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, it's pretty...

• 15:55Karen Kilgariff?

  Hilarious. A couple of years later, in the summer of 1844, Maria meets a client named Albert Terrell. They're both in their early 20s, but unlike Maria's humble background, Albert comes from a very wealthy family. So Maria and Albert become infatuated with each other. They're pretty much inseparable from the moment they meet. Albert takes her with him, and they travel up and down the East Coast, using fake names, posing as a married couple, and checking into beautiful luxury hotels.

• 16:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Heck, yeah.

• 16:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Right? All about it. It's as if all of Maria's dreams are coming true. But this relationship quickly turns toxic. Albert's behavior looks like classic love bombing, and also, it's covering up a serious anger issue. What, a rich kid who can't handle his emotions? He's said to be obsessive about and possessive over Maria once they return to Boston. That could be because Maria refuses to stop making her own money as a sex worker. So, and like, for the time, I'm sure, he felt very justified. Prosecutors will later allege that Albert, quote, "had sometimes been known to be severely cruel toward Maria and threatened her life," end quote. So Maria's own words suggest she's caught in a vicious, confusing cycle of violence.

• 17:09Karen Kilgariff?

  According to writer Abbott Kayler, quote, "Maria once confided to a fellow boarder that she enjoyed quarreling with Albert because they had, quote, 'such a good time making up.'"

• 17:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 17:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Sometimes you thrive off of that toxicity.

• 17:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:22Georgia Hardstark?

  When you're like 19.

• 17:23Karen Kilgariff?

  When you're 19, and you're supposed to be starting your family of 18. Meanwhile, and this is a crucial detail, Albert is a married father of two.

• 17:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, dear.

• 17:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 17:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 17:35Karen Kilgariff?

  And just like Maria and her own husband, Albert's wife very much wants him to end this affair and come back home to his family. So at this time, adultery is a crime in Massachusetts. It's illegal to cheat.

• 17:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 17:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's bring it back.

• 17:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Punitive.

• 17:50Karen Kilgariff?

  If we're gonna be such fascists about everything else, let's make lying and cheating illegal.

• 17:55Georgia Hardstark?

  That's actually never gonna happen.

• 17:56Karen Kilgariff?

  That's never gonna happen.

• 17:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Because, guess what?

• 17:58Karen Kilgariff?

  And Maria and Albert aren't exactly discreet with their affair. Just months into their relationship, Albert actually invites Maria to come and live in his family home with him.

• 18:08Georgia Hardstark?

  You can't do that.

• 18:09Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very disreputable, I'd say. So she's supposed to live there with the wife and kids. Other family members intervene, and they kick Maria out, so the two rent an apartment together. But they're evicted after the landlord finds out they are not married and therefore breaking the law. So Maria and Albert pack up and find themselves another apartment. And everything is okay for a little less than a year, until May of 1845, when Albert is actually indicted on those adultery charges. It looks like the charges are filed by someone in his own family, with the hope that it's like a tough love move that's gonna get him to end the affair and come back home.

• 18:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 18:49Karen Kilgariff?

  But Albert does what any rich person would do. He ignores the indictment and refuses to report to court.

• 18:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Of course.

• 18:56Karen Kilgariff?

  He is now a fugitive from the law. For a few months, he manages to dodge the authorities. Again, the relationship between Albert and Maria is incredibly unhealthy, to the point where Maria actually writes to her real, original husband, or her only husband, to say that Albert scares her and she wants to end it with him.

• 19:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 19:16Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So then, in June of 1845, the month after Albert is indicted, the couple is seen having an explosive argument. They break up for a little while, they end up reconciling, they do it over and over until September 29th of 1845. That day is when Albert is finally tracked down and arrested by the police for adultery. So he goes to jail, but not for long, because he's rich. He's bailed out by a family member, and once he's free, he immediately tries to reunite with Maria.

• 19:48Georgia Hardstark?

  Gaya.

• 19:49Karen Kilgariff?

  Sir. But he can't find her. When he asks around the neighborhood, he can't get any info on where she might be. He gets so desperate that at one point, he offers a random kid on the street a gold watch if he can track her down.

• 20:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 20:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Just a little...

• 20:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. "Hey, street urchin."

• 20:06Karen Kilgariff?

  "Hi, hi, little random orphan. Go do my bidding." But the boy looks all around town, and even he can't. If the street urchin can't find her, she's nowhere to be found. So Albert is still facing those adultery charges. His trial is imminent. While he's off trying to find Maria through child labor, his beleaguered wife, his mother, and his father-in-law are all begging the court to postpone his proceedings. So basically, don't make him go to court for adultery. Let him try to get his life back together.

• 20:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, they're not doing it.

• 20:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 20:38Georgia Hardstark?

  They're doing it to get him the fault, essentially.

• 20:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. So they're convinced if Albert can be, in their own words, "reclaimed," then he'll just need a couple of months to get over Maria and just go back to life as it was. So his trial is pushed by six months, on the condition that he pays all of his court fees and maintains his best behavior. You know how you have to ask adult men to do all the time. Please be good. And it seems to work. A couple of weeks later, on October 21st, 1845, it looks like Albert has turned over a new leaf. He goes to the courthouse, he pays his fees, but turns out, it's all for show. He's still searching for Maria, and the next day, October 22nd, is when he finally finds her. She is staying at that disreputable Beacon Hill boarding house that we talked about at the beginning.

• 21:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Got it.

• 21:27Karen Kilgariff?

  So prosecutors will later allege that Maria had been hiding there, hiding from Albert, since his arrest. But when he finds her, he stays with her that night and every night after, until the morning of October 27th, which is five days later, when she is found murdered in her room. Tenants in the boarding house can hear the couple arguing in their room just hours before the body is discovered. And we should mention here, the National Domestic Violence Hotline's website notes all sorts of reasons why someone might take their abuser back.

• 21:59Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 22:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Because that's the conversation that's always like, "Why?

• 22:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 22:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Why would she, she, she?" And it turns always into what the woman is doing in the situation.

• 22:07Georgia Hardstark?

  Hundred percent.

• 22:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And the reasons are, if you really think about it, it's like, fear, shame, love, or the normalization of abuse as love.

• 22:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Financial abuse. He's a rich guy, and she...

• 22:20Karen Kilgariff?

  And she doesn't have anything.

• 22:21Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he made it so she relies on him at this point.

• 22:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. The hotline also notes, "Leaving is often the most dangerous period of time for survivors of abuse."

• 22:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 22:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Which, in this story, very relevant.

• 22:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 22:37Speaker 01

  Please help us. They're everywhere. We think they're murder warrants. 911 Nashville returns.

• 22:44Speaker 02

  There's a homicide detective down here.

• 22:46Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  I will send swarms upon you and upon your people.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  That's one of the plagues of the Bible.

• 22:54Speaker 03

  And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 22:57Speaker 01

  Ryan Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 23:04Speaker 00

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• 23:59Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so, basically, this crime breaks across town. It's in every newspaper, every kind of tabloid of the day type of newspaper. Here's an article.

• 24:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Horrible murder and attempted arson in Boston.

• 24:13Karen Kilgariff?

  And it looks like a wild boar at the top. I can't see that far. Oh, it's a man on a horse. My apologies.

• 24:19Georgia Hardstark?

  He's got a banner that just says, "News."

• 24:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Could we please steal that design?

• 24:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, yeah. News.

• 24:26Karen Kilgariff?

  It's got to be public domain at this point.

• 24:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 24:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey, news.

• 24:29Georgia Hardstark?

  The control room thinks that's Paul Revere.

• 24:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 24:34Georgia Hardstark?

  That's Paul Revere.

• 24:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Isn't that like 100 years earlier?

• 24:36Georgia Hardstark?

  The news is coming. The news is coming. That's not...

• 24:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Guys, this is the way we love to break news.

• 24:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Not what he said.

• 24:42Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's the way all breaking news took place until CNN in 1981, when baby Jessica fell down the well.

• 24:48Georgia Hardstark?

  24-hour news cycle began.

• 24:51Karen Kilgariff?

  So, once Maria's body is discovered, they found out her throat has been slashed, and the fires burning on and around her were set to destroy evidence.

• 25:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 25:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But there's still plenty of evidence that's in the room, like a bloody razor, it's found near the bed, and a vest, a cane, and letters initialed AJT, all traced back to Albert J. Terrell, the man who was there with her. It's later revealed that around the time Maria's body is found, and just moments after someone's heard rushing down the steps and out of the boarding house, Albert has made a beeline for some nearby horse stables.

• 25:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 25:30Karen Kilgariff?

  He tells the person, who it's the stableman, we might guess, tending to the stables, that he's, quote, "in a scrape and he needs to borrow a horse."

• 25:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 25:40Karen Kilgariff?

  And then he takes that horse and immediately skips town, as any innocent man would do, cutting through Vermont and then up to Canada, all the way out of the country.

• 25:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 25:50Karen Kilgariff?

  That poor horse. The whole dusty wasn't ready.

• 25:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, Jesus.

• 25:55Karen Kilgariff?

  There, he boards a passenger ship that's leaving for Liverpool. But then, after a couple of days at sea, something crazy happens. The ship is forced to turn around to avoid a storm, and they have to go dock in New York City.

• 26:07Georgia Hardstark?

  He's like, "Phew, I'm free and clear." I'm away. Where are you going? Wait a second.

• 26:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, fuck.

• 26:12Karen Kilgariff?

  That's, again, Jesus in action. Albert lays low in the Big Apple for a few days, and then he gets onto another ship headed to New Orleans. But by the time he arrives there on December 5th, it's been more than a month since Maria's murder, and the authorities have been tipped off. Officers arrest Albert and take him back to Massachusetts, where he's charged with arson and murder. This whole case and the manhunt to track down Albert has all been covered in the papers. Public opinion is that Albert is guilty. It seems obvious, but Albert's family can afford to get him a very good lawyer. So they hire a former US senator from Massachusetts named Rufus Choate, who is known for giving impassioned and very influential courtroom speeches.

• 26:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 26:57Karen Kilgariff?

  So, there's a picture of trial coverage that the Boston Daily Mail used.

• 27:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Do we get to see Choate? Where's Choate?

• 27:04Karen Kilgariff?

  We get to see Choate. First, we're going to see, this is kind of like how they covered it.

• 27:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Mm-hmm. Has the person ever seen a face who's drawn this?

• 27:11Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like they always kind of go across the eyes, like, "Don't worry about what they actually look like." And then, can we see Rufus Choate?

• 27:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, shit. Rufus Choate is not playing games.

• 27:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Rufus is like, "How dare you wake me up in the middle of the night to defend this man?"

• 27:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Listen, I just turned 32, and I'm not having it anymore.

• 27:29Karen Kilgariff?

  When I see myself in clips, I often say, "Why are you Rufus Choating so hard in this episode, Karen?"

• 27:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, stop Choating so hard.

• 27:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen, there's too much blush and too many eye bags.

• 27:41Georgia Hardstark?

  They're going to make everyone jealous by the level of Choate.

• 27:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I think if Choate started talking, you'd be like, "Yeah, whatever you have to say."

• 27:48Georgia Hardstark?

  How many of his original teeth do you think he owns in his mouth?

• 27:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Rufus Choate? 12. But then he's got a bunch of other people's teeth. And where did he get them and how?

• 27:57Georgia Hardstark?

  No questions.

• 27:57Karen Kilgariff?

  We don't...

• 27:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Not to Choate. Please don't question Choate.

• 28:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't question this man. He will haunt you in your dreams.

• 28:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. He's a ghost.

• 28:06Karen Kilgariff?

  It's all, that is my part. I mean, everything that's happening there is happening over here.

• 28:10Georgia Hardstark?

  Karen, that is not your grandfather.

• 28:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Karen, stop it.

• 28:14Georgia Hardstark?

  I refuse.

• 28:15Karen Kilgariff?

  That is not your grandfather.

• 28:16Georgia Hardstark?

  To let you anymore.

• 28:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, so Choate's defense for Albert, of course, paints Maria as a seductress sex worker with a hypnotic power over poor, innocent men like Albert. While the prosecution points out that Maria took measures to distance herself from Albert and actually expressed real fear and concern, the defense focuses on dehumanizing her because of her profession. It's then revealed that the boarding house had been locked up that night, the night of her murder, and there were no signs of forced entry, meaning Maria was killed by someone who was already inside the building. And none of her neighbors were known to have any ill will toward her. And that's when the defense suggests... So it's actually just, it's getting closer and closer down to it must be Albert the one that's there with her.

• 29:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 29:02Karen Kilgariff?

  But that's when the defense suggests that Maria killed herself.

• 29:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 29:07Karen Kilgariff?

  They actually argue that suicide is, quote, "almost a natural death of persons of her character."

• 29:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Jesus. Wow.

• 29:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh-huh, end quote. Also, Choate does concede that if Maria didn't take her own life, yes, it is possible that Albert did do it. But if that is the case, then he might have been sleepwalking.

• 29:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay. Cover your bases.

• 29:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 29:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Choate.

• 29:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Could be anything.

• 29:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Choate...

• 29:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay, so sleepwalking is his second-in-command.

• 29:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that's his fallback.

• 29:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Second line of defense.

• 29:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah. And this is often said to be the first time a sleepwalking defense has ever been used in court in America.

• 29:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Really? That long ago?

• 29:47Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 29:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 29:48Karen Kilgariff?

  So the jury there has never heard anything like this. Like, you know, obviously, they followed crime cases and courtroom dramas in the tabloids all the time. This is brand new for them.

• 29:58Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 29:58Karen Kilgariff?

  So now, multiple members of Albert's family are brought to the stand to testify that, yes, in fact, he is a sleepwalker. And that they've seen him do strange, sometimes unsettling, things while he was asleep. Some claim that while sleepwalking, he shattered windows or yanked down curtains. One family member claims Albert once pulled a knife on him while sleepwalking.

• 30:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Hmm.

• 30:20Karen Kilgariff?

  He had his bed knife in his hand.

• 30:22Georgia Hardstark?

  His bed knife? You know.

• 30:25Karen Kilgariff?

  You know. Bookending this testimony is defense attorney Rufus Choate. You remember him. Should we bring the picture up again? Just really quick.

• 30:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Rufus Choate?

• 30:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Just remember, in case anyone's forgotten the great Rufus Cho...

• 30:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Rufus Cho, S.W.I.R.E.?

• 30:41Karen Kilgariff?

  He sells this defense with his extraordinary public speaking skills so much that people are packing into the courtroom every day just to hear him put on this defense. In his closing argument, which was, guess how long his closing argument was for this?

• 30:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Two and a half hours.

• 30:57Karen Kilgariff?

  Six hours.

• 30:58Georgia Hardstark?

  No, Choate.

• 30:59Karen Kilgariff?

  So, he might look slightly tired, and I'm not judging his parents, but he might, you might get the sense he's tired.

• 31:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 31:06Karen Kilgariff?

  But his feet were so young and lively, just pacing back and forth as he talked for six hours. So he tells the jury, "Sleepwalking, quote, 'explains the killing without a motive. Premeditated murder does not. In old Rome, it was always practiced to bestow a civic wreath upon him who saved a citizen's life, a wreath to which all the laurels of Caesar wore but weeds."

• 31:28Georgia Hardstark?

  What are you, Choate, shut the fuck up, dude?

• 31:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Stay with me. "Do your duty today," he's telling the jury.

• 31:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Okay.

• 31:35Karen Kilgariff?

  "Do your duty today, and you may earn that wreath."

• 31:38Georgia Hardstark?

  Damn.

• 31:40Karen Kilgariff?

  End quote.

• 31:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Caesar? We're bringing Caesar.

• 31:43Karen Kilgariff?

  We've got to go to old Rome if we're really going to talk about this crime correctly.

• 31:47Georgia Hardstark?

  And bringing Caesar. Okay.

• 31:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And also, just, hey, you'll get a good present if you save a person's life.

• 31:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 31:52Karen Kilgariff?

  So then, the judge adds, "another two hours with his own speech, playing straight into the defense's plan." He reinforces that Maria is of depraved character, that sleepwalking is arguably a form of insanity. He then derides many of the prosecution's key witnesses, like the boarding house tenants, who provided key testimony as being of, quote, "disreputable character."

• 32:16Georgia Hardstark?

  Your Honor, what's it called when you say?

• 32:19Karen Kilgariff?

  "I object."

• 32:19Georgia Hardstark?

  "Objection, Your Honor."

• 32:20Karen Kilgariff?

  "Objection, Your Honor."

• 32:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Objection.

• 32:22Karen Kilgariff?

  "Sustained."

• 32:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Leading the jury.

• 32:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Uh, denied, overruled.

• 32:26Georgia Hardstark?

  I call for a mistrial.

• 32:28Karen Kilgariff?

  Law and order. Bum bum.

• 32:32Karen Kilgariff?

  It's just such a horrible little example of basically, your word isn't worth anything because you run a boarding house and you are a witness to what was actually happening.

• 32:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Right. And of course, all the jury is men, are men, right? So like, that's gonna be fun.

• 32:48Karen Kilgariff?

  In the end, the jury deliberates for just two hours before coming back with a verdict. Albert is not guilty. According to one account, quote, "When the not guilty verdict was announced in the courtroom, the audience who had come to empathize with Albert let out a floor shaking hurrah that spread from behind the bar to the gallery and then into the square outside."

• 33:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Everyone, can you fucking have some decorum, please?

• 33:14Karen Kilgariff?

  No, they couldn't. They were so excited for the sleepwalker. So it isn't long before Albert is back in the courtroom, though, because he's still gonna get tried on the second charge of arson. His defense uses the same strategy. It's Choat again. He's up to the same Choatiness.

• 33:31Georgia Hardstark?

  Choat all over.

• 33:31Karen Kilgariff?

  He's gonna Choat it. He's acquitted, and Albert's acquitted once again. Abbott Kayler reports, quote, "Afterwards, Albert sent a letter to Rufus Choat asking the lawyer to refund half his legal fees on the grounds that it had been too easy to persuade the jury of his innocence."

• 33:50Georgia Hardstark?

  Fuck, Choat's not having that.

• 33:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Choat's like, you gotta be fucking... And also, I love that when it's like, well, you did it. You defended.

• 33:57Georgia Hardstark?

  It was easier than I thought it would be. So give me my money back?

• 34:01Karen Kilgariff?

  So...

• 34:02Georgia Hardstark?

  No. Can't Choat a Choater.

• 34:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't Choat a Choater. I'm doing the Carmella Soprano fingernails.

• 34:08Karen Kilgariff?

  Can't Choat a Choater.

• 34:12Karen Kilgariff?

  This is hard. His aggressive and experimental defense clearly saves Albert from a conviction, but over time, Choat's association with Albert's case starts to affect his reputation. Critics argue that he's helped set a dangerous precedent where any person charged with homicide can simply claim that they were sleepwalking at the time and get off scot-free. Some even called Choat "the lawyer who, quote, 'made it safe to murder.'" Should we see him one more time?

• 34:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No, more.

• 34:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Should we see "the lawyer who made it safe to..."

• 34:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Choat for one lifetime?

• 34:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Choat. But I totally sympathize, because Choat seems like he's like me, where he hates getting his picture taken and then he locks his jaw up and makes it all look worse.

• 34:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, with his wooden teeth, his mouth full of other people's teeth.

• 34:59Karen Kilgariff?

  And his bad contour. In the end, the only legal repercussions Albert ever faces involve the adultery charges, because it's much more important than murder. He's tried, found guilty, and given three years of hard labor. This trial was kicked down the road after the family begged the judge to give him a chance to change his ways. And then he almost immediately sought out and killed Maria.

• 35:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow.

• 35:24Karen Kilgariff?

  So that was basically, he was supposed to, like, if he had been tried when he was supposed to, with the family hadn't interfered and had worked at the time, she maybe wouldn't have been murdered.

• 35:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 35:34Karen Kilgariff?

  After the trial, Albert falls entirely out of public view. He dies sometime around 1880, when he's in his mid-50s. His name, however, lives on with the infamous sleepwalking defense. Meanwhile, the way Maria Bickford, a victim of a horrible crime, was shamed and blamed after her murder remains an all-too-familiar tactic in our legal system to this very day. And that's the story of the murder of Maria Bickford and the first-ever sleepwalking defense.

• 36:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow. Good job.

• 36:04Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 36:05Georgia Hardstark?

  Why are you looking at me really accusatory?

• 36:07Karen Kilgariff?

  It's Choat. I'm just possessed by Choat now.

• 36:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Wow, good one. It's a story we've heard so many times that I was like, dude, thank you. Dude, we already covered this one.

• 36:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Right.

• 36:17Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it's so fucking...

• 36:19Karen Kilgariff?

  A young woman who is forced to become a sex worker to have any kind of agency or independence, and then someone decides it's okay to kill her.

• 36:28Georgia Hardstark?

  A jealous man gets angry at her and kills her.

• 36:31Karen Kilgariff?

  And the judge, and the courts, and the public, and the newspapers support it. And like, the public gets taught that that's how we should think. That all the way up till, I would say, 2016 for me, where it's like this idea of a less-than person or a justified murder like that.

• 36:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Definitely. I mean, yeah, to this day.

• 36:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 36:53Speaker 07

  911, what's your emergency? Please help us. They're everywhere.

• 36:59Speaker 01

  We think they're murder wantons. 911 Nashville returns.

• 37:03Speaker 02

  What's a homicide detective doing here?

• 37:05Speaker 03

  Three bodies on the ground.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  With emergencies of biblical proportions.

• 37:09Speaker 03

  All since swarms upon you and upon your people. That's one of the plagues of the Bible. And somebody's unleashing them on Nashville.

• 37:16Speaker 01

  Ryan Phillippe joins 911 Nashville. All new Thursdays on ABC, next day on Hulu.

• 37:23Speaker 00

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• 38:17Georgia Hardstark?

  All right, well, I have a story for you that's completely not like the one you just did.

• 38:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 38:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Is, was like, there's no Choat, unfortunately.

• 38:25Karen Kilgariff?

  We can bring him back just for fun.

• 38:27Georgia Hardstark?

  But there is exotic animals, so...

• 38:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, are you about to just tell me a tiger?

• 38:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Tiger kick story? No. But it's got, it's along those lines, though.

• 38:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, great.

• 38:38Georgia Hardstark?

  So it's Wednesday, October 1, 2003, and we're in the ER in Harlem Hospital Center in New York City. The doctors and nurses here have seen a lot of shit, as you can imagine, but most have never seen injuries quite like the ones that are on a 37-year-old construction worker named Antoine Yates. He had been brought to the hospital by ambulance after having been picked up from the floor of the hallway in his apartment building, where he told police and EMTs that he had been attacked by a pit bull. But doctors are skeptical, because Antoine has a huge bite mark in his forearm and a deep gash on his calf, and there is visible bone. You're smiling through this.

• 39:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I think I know what it is. And so I just am a little worm, where I'm like, I think I know it.

• 39:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Gleeful. You look gleeful.

• 39:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Because I feel like I remember reading it at the time and being like, oh my God. But we'll see, because I could be wrong.

• 39:35Georgia Hardstark?

  The bite radius looks much bigger than a pit bull's bite would be. So the doctors admit Antoine and begin to care for his wounds, but they also, like, message police, message police? By telling them,

• 39:47Karen Kilgariff?

  You up?

• 39:47Georgia Hardstark?

  "Hey, guys," to go check out Antoine's place to see what is happening. So Antoine is recovering in Harlem Hospital. The police head over to his apartment, which is a really large, five-bedroom apartment that he had taken over from his mother in a public housing complex called the Drew Hamilton Houses. And we actually have a photo of the housing complex. It's exactly what you think it'd be like. Pretty...

• 40:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Very NYC.

• 40:13Georgia Hardstark?

  Very NYC.

• 40:14Karen Kilgariff?

  It's like what you see as you drive into the city from the airport.

• 40:17Georgia Hardstark?

  A lot of large, just buildings with lots of... Anyway.

• 40:22Karen Kilgariff?

  We're so from California.

• 40:23Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 40:24Karen Kilgariff?

  They go up in the sky.

• 40:25Georgia Hardstark?

  They're so tall.

• 40:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Look at all, they're tall, they have windows.

• 40:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Air conditioning units. Okay. The Yates family apartment is on the fifth floor of one of these buildings, and Antoine's actually grown up there. So police knock on the door. No one answers, but they hear a roar. This is the story of Ming, the tiger of Harlem. The main sources I used for the story are reporting from the New York Times, and the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

• 40:53Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm so, like, happy and angry at the same time, because why didn't I think of this? I'm hangry. And I have hangxiety. But I remembered it as a panther, but that's just my...

• 41:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, you want to know why you might not remember it completely? Is because a few days later... Oh, I'll get to it, but...

• 41:14Karen Kilgariff?

  There's a reason.

• 41:15Georgia Hardstark?

  There's a reason, and it's an interesting one. So this roar that they hear inside of this apartment complex is likely probable cause to enter the apartment, but obviously, no one wants to do that. No one's like...

• 41:28Karen Kilgariff?

  I got it.

• 41:29Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly.

• 41:29Karen Kilgariff?

  You can go home.

• 41:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. So the police climb up to the fifth-floor fire escape and lower cameras into the apartment through the window to get the footage. And what they see in one of the bedrooms is a fully grown 400-pound tiger, which authorities will later learn is a Bengal-Siberian mix, lounging on the floor, just looking like an overgrown cat. Yeah, so beautiful. Police return to Harlem Hospital to, like, ask Antoine some fucking questions, obviously.

• 42:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Excuse me.

• 42:03Georgia Hardstark?

  Discover that he's ripped out his IV from his arm. He knows the jig is up and walked out, and no one knows where he is.

• 42:10Karen Kilgariff?

  But he has, like, tiger wounds.

• 42:12Georgia Hardstark?

  I think they cleaned the wounds up and, like, fixed them up, and they were like, hang out. And he was like, no.

• 42:17Karen Kilgariff?

  He still has an IV in. I mean, geez.

• 42:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, right. Let's see him inside the apartment. What's up?

• 42:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Hey.

• 42:24Georgia Hardstark?

  He is chilling so hard in an apartment where he doesn't belong.

• 42:29Karen Kilgariff?

  He's so gigantic.

• 42:31Georgia Hardstark?

  A huge sweet baby.

• 42:32Karen Kilgariff?

  Also, just can you imagine if they're like, it's a recording, and then they just walked into that?

• 42:38Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a full-grown 400-pound fucking gorgeous tiger. I want to touch him. Like, yes, I want to scrub his neck.

• 42:45Karen Kilgariff?

  And that's how Antoine felt, and that's what happened to Antoine.

• 42:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. Yeah. So police are simultaneously working to track down Antoine and figure out a way to get this 400-pound tiger out of the building. And the building is home to roughly 500 people. So they're like, that's not safe.

• 43:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:03Georgia Hardstark?

  It turns out Ming was something of an open secret, though, in Antoine's building. Because like, everyone knows everyone's business in a building like that, right?

• 43:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Especially if you roar it out.

• 43:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Exactly. A few people had complained to city authorities about a urine smell coming from the apartment. Because how do you, there's no litter box big enough.

• 43:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Tiger litter box.

• 43:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 43:23Georgia Hardstark?

  It's not happening. But no one had ever mentioned a tiger. I feel like it's gotta be like, don't tell our corrupt landlords of other people's business.

• 43:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Right. Don't narc and you won't get narked on.

• 43:35Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 43:36Karen Kilgariff?

  That's how you should live.

• 43:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 43:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Except for when it comes to tigers.

• 43:39Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, because the tiger shouldn't be living in an apartment. Even if there's five bedrooms, that sounds very large.

• 43:44Karen Kilgariff?

  I know, it sounds really nice.

• 43:46Georgia Hardstark?

  Reporters find a neighbor named Julius Cook when he's out walking his two pit bulls named Rocky and Oreo. I know, it's important. Julius says he once heard a roar about a year earlier. And he says, quote, "I thought somebody was watching the Discovery Channel." Because you gotta imagine the TV's up.

• 44:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, they have surround sound, woofers and tweeters.

• 44:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Woofers and roars. Neighbors mentioned hearing about other animals in Antoine's apartment over the years. They bring up bear cubs, rabbits, which isn't that big of a deal. I don't know why that's.

• 44:17Karen Kilgariff?

  The most silent animal of all time.

• 44:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Cute little tiny apartment animals.

• 44:21Karen Kilgariff?

  Fucking keep hearing this rabbit next door. Keep it down.

• 44:25Georgia Hardstark?

  Hyenas, though. Monkeys, snakes, again, a quiet animal. A llama, a tarantula, and a young lion. So he's just like bringing them in.

• 44:34Karen Kilgariff?

  He loves animals.

• 44:35Georgia Hardstark?

  And he's not trying to keep it a secret.

• 44:36Karen Kilgariff?

  He's the David Attenborough of New York City.

• 44:39Georgia Hardstark?

  They also bring up rottweilers. Those are allowed in many New York apartments. And years later, Antoine will never corroborate any specific species, but he does tell a reporter, quote, "Yeah, I had a lot of exotics in there." So, we don't know.

• 44:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 44:54Georgia Hardstark?

  The neighbors also report seeing Antoine make daily trips to the nearby supermarket, lugging home 25 frozen chicken thighs every day.

• 45:04Karen Kilgariff?

  I was picturing just an oversized cartoon piece of meat, like Fred Flintstone's style.

• 45:08Georgia Hardstark?

  Over his shoulder, like a rib.

• 45:10Karen Kilgariff?

  God damn.

• 45:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. One of the store's cashiers tells a reporter, quote, "He was our best customer." But.

• 45:17Karen Kilgariff?

  We're sorry to lose him.

• 45:19Georgia Hardstark?

  Antoine had always lived in the fifth floor apartment with his mother, Martha, who's 67, and several of his siblings, as well as foster siblings, whom Martha took care of. Antoine had brought Ming home as a cub two years earlier. Hello, baby. And it seems like he got him from an unscrupulous exotic animal outfit in Minnesota called Bear Cat Hollow.

• 45:39Karen Kilgariff?

  But it has a name. It's like, you're gonna be unscrupulous, but you're naming it yourself?

• 45:44Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, we have an LLC and everything.

• 45:45Karen Kilgariff?

  We have sweatshirts.

• 45:46Georgia Hardstark?

  We have sweatshirts. Bear Cat Hollow has been connected to at least one other tiger attack and will eventually be shut down in 2005. Two months prior to Antoine's injury, Martha had moved with the foster kids to a suburb of Philadelphia. Maybe they didn't want to live with a tiger anymore.

• 46:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Get away from the wildlife.

• 46:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Sure. It's unclear if the children had ever lived in the apartment at the same time as Ming. But on one occasion, the, a downstairs neighbor of the Yates', a woman named Valerie Tompkins, had complained to the housing authority that a large amount of urine had leaked into her apartment. That smell is never coming up.

• 46:24Karen Kilgariff?

  Here's the thing, you could get a kiddie pool and fill that with cat litter, and that could be a tiger.

• 46:28Georgia Hardstark?

  But do they know, I think they want a mark.

• 46:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, yeah, instinctually, they're not going there.

• 46:33Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 46:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that makes sense. But so much pee that it seeps through the floor.

• 46:38Georgia Hardstark?

  The floor.

• 46:38Karen Kilgariff?

  This is why it doesn't work.

• 46:40Georgia Hardstark?

  No.

• 46:40Karen Kilgariff?

  There's many reasons.

• 46:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally, many reasons.

• 46:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Pee is the big one.

• 46:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and like, your neighbor's just trying to live her fucking life.

• 46:46Karen Kilgariff?

  And then she has.

• 46:46Georgia Hardstark?

  She's gotta have pee rain.

• 46:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Pee rain. Get out of here.

• 46:50Georgia Hardstark?

  And it appears that the housing authority ignored this complaint.

• 46:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's weird.

• 46:53Georgia Hardstark?

  Which they are notorious for doing. At the time of Ming's discovery, also Valerie's nine-year-old daughter tells the press that one of Martha's foster children had once invited her over to see this tiger. Her name's Janaya, and she says, quote, "My friend said, wanna come see my tiger?" End quote, which hell, yeah, you'd brag to everyone.

• 47:13Karen Kilgariff?

  I would never shut my mouth as a child.

• 47:15Georgia Hardstark?

  It would be your thing. You'd be the tiger girl.

• 47:17Karen Kilgariff?

  I would be selling tickets.

• 47:19Georgia Hardstark?

  It's unclear when this happened, or if Janaya did go see the tiger. Ming's only two years old, so he might have just been a little baby at the time. So it's not like crazy that a child was going to visit a tiger.

• 47:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 47:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Because it was cute.

• 47:31Karen Kilgariff?

  Could we?

• 47:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Knock, knock, knock. We have kittens here. Did you see them?

• 47:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Big, mean, sharp, talented kittens.

• 47:39Georgia Hardstark?

  So the NYPD consults with the Bronx Zoo, the Nassau County Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, and the Center for Animal Care and Control. And through these connections, they get tranquilizer darts, a big cage, and a large quantity of raw meat. So they're ready to go.

• 47:57Karen Kilgariff?

  It's very like Wile E. Coyote of all the things they're collecting to catch.

• 48:01Georgia Hardstark?

  There's like a fucking fishing pole with a big stake on the end of it. And then they, yes, reel them in.

• 48:07Karen Kilgariff?

  And an anvil for some reason.

• 48:09Georgia Hardstark?

  Anvil, drop the anvil. Okay, the reason you might not have heard of this story is because on this day, two days after this happened, today they're about to go grab the tiger. Roy of Siegfried and Roy was critically injured by a 400-pound white tiger named Manacor.

• 48:29Karen Kilgariff?

  That's crazy.

• 48:29Georgia Hardstark?

  In the middle of a show in Las Vegas at the Mirage Theater. Remember that, when that happened?

• 48:34Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 48:34Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I don't know if everyone knows that Siegfried and Roy were like a big fucking deal.

• 48:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yes.

• 48:39Georgia Hardstark?

  In like, the 80s and 90s. So glamorous, like Liberace level. We all thought that the animals must love them.

• 48:47Karen Kilgariff?

  They love them, they love being with them.

• 48:49Georgia Hardstark?

  They take care of them, and then this one revolts. Roy lived, but he had a severed spine and a stroke from this attack and was partially paralyzed.

• 48:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 48:58Georgia Hardstark?

  So that happened the same day as this was going on. So it's why you might not have heard it, yeah.

• 49:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, like, what was the astrology doing that day? Like, I mean, that's crazy.

• 49:10Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. So it's later in the afternoon that day when a police officer named Martin Duffy rappels down the outside of the building. How did he get that job?

• 49:19Karen Kilgariff?

  Marty Duffy.

• 49:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Marty, you're up.

• 49:21Karen Kilgariff?

  He loves to rock climb.

• 49:23Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, he rappels down the outside of the building from the seventh floor to the fifth floor, armed with a tranquilizer gun, and takes aim through the open window of Ming's bedroom. Duffy says, quote, "He charged twice, and I shot him. He charged the last time and broke through the glass." We have a fucking incredible picture of it. Look at this.

• 49:43Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, shit.

• 49:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Look at that kitty cat.

• 49:48Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 49:49Karen Kilgariff?

  I love that there's wild. Pictures of this.

• 49:52Georgia Hardstark?

  Photo you've ever seen.

• 49:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Unbeliev- Marty's like, what am I doing? Why did I volunteer?

• 49:57Georgia Hardstark?

  All my life choices, I'm smiling.

• 49:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I wanted to be a writer. What am I doing?

• 50:02Georgia Hardstark?

  So I should have brought a water pressure hose up here, because it really.

• 50:06Karen Kilgariff?

  Little squirt bottle, backpack.

• 50:08Georgia Hardstark?

  So, right after Ming breaks the glass of the window, like, I'm gonna eat you, the tranquilizers take effect, conks out.

• 50:17Karen Kilgariff?

  If that was in a movie, you'd be like, corny, not real.

• 50:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, and he falls asleep.

• 50:22Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh.

• 50:23Georgia Hardstark?

  So, I wonder if he purrs.

• 50:25Karen Kilgariff?

  Meow, meow. He remembers, like, when he used to get, have pounds of meat brought to him from a local bodega.

• 50:31Georgia Hardstark?

  A team of officers are then brave enough to go in after Marty's taken one for the team.

• 50:36Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 50:36Georgia Hardstark?

  And they carry the tiger out of the building on a tarp. And further into the apartment, authorities also find a huge fiberglass tank, and in it is a five-foot caiman. Do you know what a caiman is?

• 50:48Karen Kilgariff?

  No.

• 50:49Georgia Hardstark?

  It's a South American reptile that's like an alligator, but wait, it's more aggressive. That's the difference between that and an alligator.

• 50:57Karen Kilgariff?

  We improved the alligator. Do we have a picture of a caiman?

• 51:01Georgia Hardstark?

  I think we do, actually. It just looks like a fucking alligator.

• 51:04Karen Kilgariff?

  But they have a real attitude.

• 51:06Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, like, he's got a mohawk, he's especially pissed off.

• 51:09Karen Kilgariff?

  He's like, you know what? I won't see you later.

• 51:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:11Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm a caiman.

• 51:15Georgia Hardstark?

  Good one.

• 51:15Karen Kilgariff?

  Thank you.

• 51:16Georgia Hardstark?

  So Antoine will later say that the caiman is named Al, just in case you were interested.

• 51:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Wait, sorry, he got a super hostile reptile to put in the back room.

• 51:26Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh huh.

• 51:27Karen Kilgariff?

  Sorry, I just kind of lost where we were and forgot that this also was in the house.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Karen Kilgariff?

  That's insane.

• 51:32Georgia Hardstark?

  We're all, they're roommates. It's a situation comedy.

• 51:35Karen Kilgariff?

  It's one of the best children's books that Maurice Sendak ever illustrated.

• 51:41Georgia Hardstark?

  So Ming spends the night at a city animal shelter, probably scaring their shit out of all the like fucking dogs.

• 51:46Karen Kilgariff?

  But those cat ladies were like out of my way.

• 51:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, my God. And the next day, both he and Al are transported to the Noah's Lost Ark Animal Sanctuary in Berlin Center, Ohio, which is a rural area not too far from Akron.

• 52:01Karen Kilgariff?

  Mm.

• 52:02Georgia Hardstark?

  I know you love that city.

• 52:03Karen Kilgariff?

  I do.

• 52:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Well, all this is happening, separate law enforcement officials with slightly less of a taste for adventure. That was Ally's wording.

• 52:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Nice.

• 52:11Georgia Hardstark?

  They're like, okay, you do that, we're gonna get Antoine. You get the angry tiger.

• 52:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:15Georgia Hardstark?

  We're gonna get Antoine.

• 52:16Karen Kilgariff?

  The chill tiger and the angry friend came in.

• 52:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, which, who do you wanna? So they track him down to the hospital of the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia, where he had checked himself in after fleeing Harlem Hospital. Like, he was like, I still need help.

• 52:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:29Georgia Hardstark?

  I just don't.

• 52:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Large pieces of my flesh have been removed.

• 52:32Georgia Hardstark?

  God. At this point, knowing Ming has been captured, Antoine is totally forthcoming with police telling the whole story of how Ming had wound up attacking him. A few weeks earlier, a neighbor had given Antoine an abandoned one-month-old kitten to care for, because of course, he's the guy in the building that if you find a fucking abandoned animal, you bring him to Antoine.

• 52:53Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 52:54Georgia Hardstark?

  Antoine loves animals.

• 52:55Karen Kilgariff?

  He'll help.

• 52:56Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, bring the kitten up there. It's basically a tiger snack.

• 52:59Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, it's like, he's got a tiger over here and then a tiny kitten.

• 53:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Antoine named the kitten Shadow, and Shadow was kept in a separate bedroom from Ming, but the kitten escaped, as they do, and Antoine had been with Ming at the time, playing a game that they called Buddy Buddy. Don't know what that game entails.

• 53:17Karen Kilgariff?

  That's too bad, because then it's just what it suggests is not great.

• 53:21Georgia Hardstark?

  I just, no. When Shadow passes by the room, the kitten passes by the room, the tiger, as they like to do, lunges for the kitten, and so Antoine is like in a battle of good versus evil, trying to get his tiger to not eat the kitten. And so Antoine-

• 53:39Karen Kilgariff?

  And the kitten's like, this is what the world is like?

• 53:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Totally.

• 53:42Karen Kilgariff?

  What's happening?

• 53:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Antoine says, quote, "I tried with all my might to stop him from getting this cat, so he pulled down one paw on my chest. I put my forearm up, he grabbed me real hard and munched on my arm. Then he grabbed my leg. If he didn't realize, hey, Ming, it's me, I would have been gone." So I think that instinctually, as the cat is trying to kill this kitten, Ming just got in the way, but as soon as he realized, like, you're attacking the wrong person.

• 54:11Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 54:12Georgia Hardstark?

  Which is kinda sweet, that like, the tiger was like, oh shit dude, I'm sorry.

• 54:15Karen Kilgariff?

  But also, don't you think that's what the owner wants to believe?

• 54:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Mo comes after me sometimes. He does that to other people, and when he does it to me, I'm like, bro, I'm the reason.

• 54:25Karen Kilgariff?

  I'm the source of all that wet food.

• 54:26Georgia Hardstark?

  You fucking live here, exactly. Like, if it was Vince's idea and choice, you would be rehomed, so don't fucking come for me.

• 54:35Karen Kilgariff?

  Don't even.

• 54:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Like, I'm not that girl. Antoine is charged with reckless endangerment and the possession of a wild animal. He's released to await trial. A judge doesn't believe he's a flight risk and denies any request for bail. As Antoine is leaving the courthouse, he talks about Ming to reporters, saying, quote, "I never feared him at all. He was like my brother. He was my best friend. He was my only friend, really."

• 54:58Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, no.

• 54:59Georgia Hardstark?

  I know. Here's a photo of Antoine Yates coming out of the criminal court in Manhattan with his arm in a sling. Most of Antoine's family, friends, and neighbors seem to be pretty much all on his side. One 62-year-old neighbor named Ricky Rich, fucking great name.

• 55:14Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 55:15Georgia Hardstark?

  No, I'm sorry, named Rocky Rich.

• 55:17Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, better.

• 55:18Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Says that Antoine is not a danger to the community, saying, quote, "If he was a danger to the people, he would have been blocking that tiger around the neighborhood." Some people don't understand that some people just have love in their hearts for people and animals, end quote.

• 55:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Well, sure, but let's not be-

• 55:36Georgia Hardstark?

  Let's do it in the wild, though.

• 55:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Let's not understate things just to make them sound better.

• 55:41Georgia Hardstark?

  Right, let's, uh, let's do it from afar.

• 55:42Karen Kilgariff?

  Some people don't understand how, when you get a tiger, you love it and it's your brother.

• 55:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Right.

• 55:48Karen Kilgariff?

  And it eats you.

• 55:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Antoine is ultimately sentenced to five months in prison and five years of probation. Antoine's lawyer says the sentence is overblown and that if Antoine were white and had more advantages, he would not have served any time at all, which is probably true.

• 56:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Completely.

• 56:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Uh-huh. Antoine's mother, Martha, is initially given child endangerment charges over the question of whether her foster children were in close proximity to Ming, but those charges are ultimately dropped. I think there's no proof. And there's a ton of press coverage over this. Of course, the Daily Mail loves this story. It's like, perfect for them. Ming passes away in 2019 at the age of 19, which is a typical tiger lifespan.

• 56:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay, good.

• 56:27Georgia Hardstark?

  At the time of Ming's death, Antoine, who's living with his mother in Philadelphia, chooses not to speak with the press. His mother tells a New York Times reporter, who calls that he's out walking his dog and can't talk. So Ming is buried at the Hartsdale Pet Cemetery in Westchester. It's the nation's oldest pet cemetery and the final resting place of many notable animals, including pets belonging to Mariah Carey and Diana Ross.

• 56:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Oh, that's the place to go when you're grieving.

• 56:55Georgia Hardstark?

  It's the Hollywood Cemetery, it's the Hollywood River Cemetery for New York famous people's pets.

• 57:00Karen Kilgariff?

  Wow.

• 57:01Georgia Hardstark?

  Right?

• 57:02Karen Kilgariff?

  Okay.

• 57:03Georgia Hardstark?

  So there's also a lion cub who was buried there named Goldfleck, who lived with a Hungarian princess in the Plaza Hotel in the early 1900s.

• 57:10Karen Kilgariff?

  Cool.

• 57:11Georgia Hardstark?

  What was going on? She had rescued him from the circus, but he was in poor health and unfortunately died shortly thereafter. So like, tell me everything about that princess.

• 57:20Karen Kilgariff?

  I mean, just legendary.

• 57:22Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. Here's a photo of Ming's final resting place. He's got like a big, a big nice, um, what's it called?

• 57:29Karen Kilgariff?

  Plaque?

• 57:30Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you. Nice big plaque honoring him. A year after Ming's death in April of 2020, when New York is in the scariest part of COVID lockdown, New Yorkers, like everyone else, find a welcome distraction with the Tiger King docu-series.

• 57:44Karen Kilgariff?

  So epic.

• 57:45Georgia Hardstark?

  God, it was so good.

• 57:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Such a time, though. It's like, I don't think I could ever re-watch that.

• 57:49Georgia Hardstark?

  We all went fucking bananas.

• 57:51Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 57:52Georgia Hardstark?

  For many reasons.

• 57:53Karen Kilgariff?

  But it was just like, goddamn, this is weird.

• 57:55Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah. The Times circles back to Antoine at this time to get his reaction to the show. He's not impressed. He says, quote, "I was turned off by it. It just shows how ignorant these so-called exotic animal lovers can be," end quote. And that is the story of Ming, Tiger of Harlem.

• 58:12Karen Kilgariff?

  Amazing. I'm so excited that you did that.

• 58:16Georgia Hardstark?

  We almost did that one live when we were in New York.

• 58:19Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so good.

• 58:20Georgia Hardstark?

  Good one. Yeah, thanks, Ally, for all the research.

• 58:23Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, that was great.

• 58:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Into that.

• 58:25Karen Kilgariff?

  So good. My god.

• 58:27Georgia Hardstark?

  I know.

• 58:28Karen Kilgariff?

  It's so crazy, and I didn't realize there were so many like, um, yeah, because obviously, it's not just the attack.

• 58:32Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 58:33Karen Kilgariff?

  Then you have to get a gigantic Siberian tiger out of an apartment.

• 58:37Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, three tranquilizers it took.

• 58:39Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 58:40Georgia Hardstark?

  To get this kitty cat down.

• 58:41Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah, he wasn't messing around.

• 58:43Georgia Hardstark?

  Oh, poor Ming.

• 58:44Karen Kilgariff?

  This is so good.

• 58:45Georgia Hardstark?

  Ah.

• 58:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Great job.

• 58:47Georgia Hardstark?

  Thank you.

• 58:48Karen Kilgariff?

  Another great one.

• 58:49Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah, you did great, too.

• 58:50Karen Kilgariff?

  You know, this is podcasting on a wooden table. I think this is-

• 58:54Georgia Hardstark?

  This is, finally.

• 58:56Karen Kilgariff?

  Can you feel it?

• 58:57Georgia Hardstark?

  Real. Let's have a seance. It's very much a seance table, isn't it?

• 59:01Karen Kilgariff?

  It really is.

• 59:02Georgia Hardstark?

  Yeah.

• 59:03Karen Kilgariff?

  Yeah.

• 59:04Georgia Hardstark?

  Proud of us.

• 59:05Karen Kilgariff?

  We're gonna call down the spirit of podcasting.

• 59:06Georgia Hardstark?

  And say, what the fuck, dude?

• 59:08Karen Kilgariff?

  And then say, stay sexy.

• 59:10Georgia Hardstark?

  And don't get murdered. Goodbye.

• 59:13Karen Kilgariff?

  Elvis, do you want a cookie?

• 59:15Speaker 07

  Ah!

• 59:22Karen Kilgariff?

  This has been an Exactly Right Production.

• 59:24Georgia Hardstark?

  Our managing producer is Molly Smith.

• 59:26Karen Kilgariff?

  Our consulting producer is Kate Schellbach.

• 59:28Georgia Hardstark?

  Our creative lead is Allison Agosti.

• 59:30Karen Kilgariff?

  Our associate producer is Tessa Hughes, and our editor is Aristotle Acevedo.

• 59:35Georgia Hardstark?

  This episode was mixed by Leona Scolacci.

• 59:37Karen Kilgariff?

  Our researchers are Maren McLaughlin and Ally Elkin.

• 59:40Georgia Hardstark?

  Email your hometowns to [email protected] and follow the show on Instagram at MyFavoriteMurder.

• 59:46Karen Kilgariff?

  Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

• 59:51Georgia Hardstark?

  Or watch new episodes every week on Netflix. Search for My Favorite Murder, add us to your list, and hit the double thumbs up button. Goodbye.

• 1:00:07Karen Kilgariff?

  Calling all amateur detectives and podcast obsessives.

• 1:00:11Georgia Hardstark?

  Virgin Voyages' second True Crime Voyage sets sail March 20th, 2027, for a five-night escape to Grand Turk and the Beach Club at Bimini.

• 1:00:19Karen Kilgariff?

  As part of the On Air at Sea collection, this immersive sailing brings together fan favorite podcasts, including Disgrace Land, Buried Bones, and Wise Crack, for live recordings, behind-the-scenes access, exclusive meet and greets, and crime-themed programming that you won't find anywhere else.

• 1:00:35Georgia Hardstark?

  All aboard our award-winning, kid-free ships.

• 1:00:38Karen Kilgariff?

  Head over to virginvoyages.com/truecrime to secure your spot.

• 1:00:42Georgia Hardstark?

  Goodbye.

• 1:00:45Karen Kilgariff?

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• 1:01:21Speaker 07

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